Gravy
Downsitting Citizen
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2006
- Messages
- 17,078
Some photos from Monday: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nyctours/sets/
I'm still so sickened by the despicable denialist behavior at Ground Zero that I don't feel like writing about it, but It's high time I got to the positive stuff, and I feel overwhelmingly positive about our presence there.
First, Abby, realitybites, and Kate (Debunk911Myths) were all far too modest about their accomplishments. While there were many people who voiced their displeasure at the deniers, as far as I could tell there were only five of us who had the knowledge and desire to take them on in depth. The fifth was Mark Ferran, who came down from Albany, as he did on 9/11/01 to help with rescue efforts. We didn't know he was there until nearly the end of the day, so he was taking them on by himself all day. And Kate deserves all the credit in the world for coming up from D.C. Many people had emailed me over the past few months from around the country, saying they were going to try to make it to NY for 9/11, but Kate actually did it, and she knew her stuff.
So, it was five against more than a thousand. I'm guessing that the black shirt crowd was 1,000: a good showing but nothing like what the Loosers had predicted. Then there were many deniers who didn't hang with that crowd and didn't play by their rules. We took on all comers. We kicked denier ass with facts and received the gratitude of hundreds of people, with firefighters from around the country prominent among them.
Quotes from "Loose Change Creators Speak."
In my opinion, these are the two of the best things about that day:
1) The protesters were far removed, in sight and sound, from the memorial service, and
2) The mainstream media kept their cameras and microphones fixed on the families. But don't take my word for it:
What about those "wide shots" that had to include the Loosers? There was a scrim placed on the fence around the whole WTC site which prevented gawkers from looking down on the ceremony below and cameras in the bathtub from catching any distracting action above. High on a balcony of WFC #2, west of the site, there were a few dozen mainstream camera crews. They looked down on the site to catch the action, not across the 1/4 mile to where the protesters were staged. Outstanding.
And when the mainstream media was near?
Another thing that was a huge help to us was that the black shirts mostly stayed in one place, their staging area across wide Church Street. When we got there, I was shocked to see that they were associating mostly with themselves. I had thought they'd be swarming everywhere, handing out DVDs, and that we'd have to hustle to chase them down. But that's not what the permit allowed. They were not allowed to congregate in numbers on the WTC site itself. They were allowed to march a prescribed route. That's right, they were herded and penned like...sheeple! After they marched away from the site, some black shirts stuck around and debated, but most of the deniers at that point were unafilliated with them. I had said I wouldn't be speaking to the deniers, but since there was no mainstream media to talk to, whenever we heard someone spewing swill to the private cameras and the community college newspapers, we chimed in. The difficult part about that was that once we started speaking, several deniers would interrupt, shout questions and exclamations, and generally make it difficult to have any kind of rational discussion.
Note the sign on the Century 21 store. Photo by Kate.
I certainly did raise my voice a number of times in order to be heard above the shouting. We also came across a number of deniers who were polite, didn't raise their voices, and seemed to be listening.
More from "Treez"
At one point I was walking past three young guys with black shirts, and one noticed my name tag that said "Sensible Person." He chuckled a bit and said something like, "you did sound pretty sensible." That was a shock to my system, so I told him he deserved the name tag, and affixed it to him. It turns out that they were students from my alma mater in New Hampshire, filming a documentary. The first thing they said was, "We're not down with all of this stuff, but we do have a lot of questions." And I had a lot of answers. They filmed a good deal of my talk, although many deniers kept butting in, making it difficult for them to get their questions to me. I don't know if I totally converted them, but I turned them on to lots of good resources (we had flyers with internet links). We left on very good terms, and they got a good dose of how rude and ignorant some of the deniers are.
Looser encounters: I shook Rowe's hand and introduced myself (he said nothing), gave a pen to Bermas, and saw Avery twice. That's it. They stuck with the crowd for the most part. Didn't see Les Jamieson, but saw most of the rest of the Saturday crowd. The tiny insane lady who said she'd have me arrested if I answered her question was there asking me questions. I reminded her that she was insane. I forgot to give the international cuckoo sign to "See your soul" when he yelled at me, so I ran to catch up with him and did so. Tom Foti absolutely humiliated himself on camera with despicable behavior. Alex Jones wouldn't talk to me on Monday, and refused to go with me to engine company 10 to tell the firefighters they were in on the inside job.
We parted ways at 6:30 or so. I was going to go home for a dinner date, until I heard ranting in the distance...
Three and a half hours later, I did leave, but not until two men, both bigger than me, hugged me. At separate times. One was crying and the other nearly was. This does not happen every day. Yes, they had both been at O'Hara's a little too long.
Many firefighters from around the area and the country listened to us and shook our hands and thanked us. I had a long list of FDNY quotes about WTC 7, longer than anything I've posted here. One of them took dozens of photos of me with a very expensive camera while I was taking on the rantingest moonbat I've yet encountered (Who said he was a mechanical engineer, no less). The firefighter said he'd send me some pics. More stories later.
All of you JREF 9/11 debunkers deserve credit for the oases of sanity we were able to create. Thank you.
I'm still so sickened by the despicable denialist behavior at Ground Zero that I don't feel like writing about it, but It's high time I got to the positive stuff, and I feel overwhelmingly positive about our presence there.
First, Abby, realitybites, and Kate (Debunk911Myths) were all far too modest about their accomplishments. While there were many people who voiced their displeasure at the deniers, as far as I could tell there were only five of us who had the knowledge and desire to take them on in depth. The fifth was Mark Ferran, who came down from Albany, as he did on 9/11/01 to help with rescue efforts. We didn't know he was there until nearly the end of the day, so he was taking them on by himself all day. And Kate deserves all the credit in the world for coming up from D.C. Many people had emailed me over the past few months from around the country, saying they were going to try to make it to NY for 9/11, but Kate actually did it, and she knew her stuff.
So, it was five against more than a thousand. I'm guessing that the black shirt crowd was 1,000: a good showing but nothing like what the Loosers had predicted. Then there were many deniers who didn't hang with that crowd and didn't play by their rules. We took on all comers. We kicked denier ass with facts and received the gratitude of hundreds of people, with firefighters from around the country prominent among them.
Quotes from "Loose Change Creators Speak."
Aw, I bet they would've shown if LC Final Cut was finished. They already have your other free videos.
Missed it by THAT much....
...Approximately 40,000 more than you had.
Yes, and if I could win the lottery every day for a month, I mean, WOW!
The establishment did not take notice and will not be doing anything to help you. See, they're the establishment: the ones you accuse of murdering all those people on 9/11. The ones you say you're going to overthrow. Even if you ask nicely, they're not going to stand up and offer you their seats. You'll have to figure out how to do that on your own. Not a single thing has changed, except that your bank balance is much smaller. What? It's not as easy as shouting slogans, even if Alex Jones does the shouting? Why didn't somebody tell us that in high school?
In my opinion, these are the two of the best things about that day:
1) The protesters were far removed, in sight and sound, from the memorial service, and
2) The mainstream media kept their cameras and microphones fixed on the families. But don't take my word for it:
Sorry, Dylan, you do not dictate what they have to cover.
Wrong. Why? Because they understand camera angles and you don't, and the city arranged the site to keep morons away from the memorial.
The whole point of their protest was to get attention from the major media. It was an abject failure. I guess the hunger strike in front of the White House is on for 2007. My whole goal was to speak to the major media whenever I saw them speaking to the deniers. I never saw that happen. Yes, there were hundreds of cameras there. Most of them belonged to the deniers. My longest interview was with a reporter from the Nikkei stock exchange, believe it or not, and only because he sought me out. He said he hadn't interviewed the deniers. I did forget to call a reporter from the Village Voice who had left me a message, and missed a call from the LA Times, but it turned out it was too late for deadline anyway. How did they know about me? I had sent over 600 emails to 200 media outlets, telling them that the Loosers were begging for media attention while disparaging the victims, and asking them to avoid them like the plague, or to talk to me first. I doubt if my emails made a bit of difference in the coverage, but at least they didn't have the unintended effect of piquing anyone's interest unnecessarily. Bottom line: the mainstream media that the deniers both court and decry has respect for the victims of 9/11.
What about those "wide shots" that had to include the Loosers? There was a scrim placed on the fence around the whole WTC site which prevented gawkers from looking down on the ceremony below and cameras in the bathtub from catching any distracting action above. High on a balcony of WFC #2, west of the site, there were a few dozen mainstream camera crews. They looked down on the site to catch the action, not across the 1/4 mile to where the protesters were staged. Outstanding.
And when the mainstream media was near?
That idea is right up there with sending threatening letters to the attorneys at Paramount Pictures! Go, truthies! As you can tell from the quote above, the "quiet protest" turned screamingly loud. That's when we went for a beer.
Another thing that was a huge help to us was that the black shirts mostly stayed in one place, their staging area across wide Church Street. When we got there, I was shocked to see that they were associating mostly with themselves. I had thought they'd be swarming everywhere, handing out DVDs, and that we'd have to hustle to chase them down. But that's not what the permit allowed. They were not allowed to congregate in numbers on the WTC site itself. They were allowed to march a prescribed route. That's right, they were herded and penned like...sheeple! After they marched away from the site, some black shirts stuck around and debated, but most of the deniers at that point were unafilliated with them. I had said I wouldn't be speaking to the deniers, but since there was no mainstream media to talk to, whenever we heard someone spewing swill to the private cameras and the community college newspapers, we chimed in. The difficult part about that was that once we started speaking, several deniers would interrupt, shout questions and exclamations, and generally make it difficult to have any kind of rational discussion.
Note the sign on the Century 21 store. Photo by Kate.
I certainly did raise my voice a number of times in order to be heard above the shouting. We also came across a number of deniers who were polite, didn't raise their voices, and seemed to be listening.
More from "Treez"
As Reality mentioned, one nice guy videotaped me for at least a half hour, and said he'd send me a copy. I hope he does, because he caught some encounters that I very much want to see the light of day. Fletcher Holmes, a young filmmaker from Georgia who interviewed Abby and me in July, was back for more.
At one point I was walking past three young guys with black shirts, and one noticed my name tag that said "Sensible Person." He chuckled a bit and said something like, "you did sound pretty sensible." That was a shock to my system, so I told him he deserved the name tag, and affixed it to him. It turns out that they were students from my alma mater in New Hampshire, filming a documentary. The first thing they said was, "We're not down with all of this stuff, but we do have a lot of questions." And I had a lot of answers. They filmed a good deal of my talk, although many deniers kept butting in, making it difficult for them to get their questions to me. I don't know if I totally converted them, but I turned them on to lots of good resources (we had flyers with internet links). We left on very good terms, and they got a good dose of how rude and ignorant some of the deniers are.
Looser encounters: I shook Rowe's hand and introduced myself (he said nothing), gave a pen to Bermas, and saw Avery twice. That's it. They stuck with the crowd for the most part. Didn't see Les Jamieson, but saw most of the rest of the Saturday crowd. The tiny insane lady who said she'd have me arrested if I answered her question was there asking me questions. I reminded her that she was insane. I forgot to give the international cuckoo sign to "See your soul" when he yelled at me, so I ran to catch up with him and did so. Tom Foti absolutely humiliated himself on camera with despicable behavior. Alex Jones wouldn't talk to me on Monday, and refused to go with me to engine company 10 to tell the firefighters they were in on the inside job.
We parted ways at 6:30 or so. I was going to go home for a dinner date, until I heard ranting in the distance...
Three and a half hours later, I did leave, but not until two men, both bigger than me, hugged me. At separate times. One was crying and the other nearly was. This does not happen every day. Yes, they had both been at O'Hara's a little too long.
Many firefighters from around the area and the country listened to us and shook our hands and thanked us. I had a long list of FDNY quotes about WTC 7, longer than anything I've posted here. One of them took dozens of photos of me with a very expensive camera while I was taking on the rantingest moonbat I've yet encountered (Who said he was a mechanical engineer, no less). The firefighter said he'd send me some pics. More stories later.
All of you JREF 9/11 debunkers deserve credit for the oases of sanity we were able to create. Thank you.
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I'm going back now to being an Atheist. I really appreciate what you guys do. 