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Old 13th September 2006, 12:10 PM   #1
Gravy
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More pics, more war stories from GZ 9/11/06

Some photos from Monday: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nyctours/sets/

I'm still so sickened by the despicable denialist behavior at Ground Zero that I don't feel like writing about it, but It's high time I got to the positive stuff, and I feel overwhelmingly positive about our presence there.

First, Abby, realitybites, and Kate (Debunk911Myths) were all far too modest about their accomplishments. While there were many people who voiced their displeasure at the deniers, as far as I could tell there were only five of us who had the knowledge and desire to take them on in depth. The fifth was Mark Ferran, who came down from Albany, as he did on 9/11/01 to help with rescue efforts. We didn't know he was there until nearly the end of the day, so he was taking them on by himself all day. And Kate deserves all the credit in the world for coming up from D.C. Many people had emailed me over the past few months from around the country, saying they were going to try to make it to NY for 9/11, but Kate actually did it, and she knew her stuff.

So, it was five against more than a thousand. I'm guessing that the black shirt crowd was 1,000: a good showing but nothing like what the Loosers had predicted. Then there were many deniers who didn't hang with that crowd and didn't play by their rules. We took on all comers. We kicked denier ass with facts and received the gratitude of hundreds of people, with firefighters from around the country prominent among them.
Quotes from "Loose Change Creators Speak."
Quote:
Avery: Ground Zero this year is gonna be nuts. It's gonna be so insane. I mean, I can't wait. I mean, we're gonna have thousands of people there.
Aw, I bet they would've shown if LC Final Cut was finished. They already have your other free videos.

Quote:
Avery: I'm organizing the biggest protest ever for this year at Ground Zero on Monday. We've got a few hundred people already, and we're trying to get it to a few thousand.
Missed it by THAT much....

Quote:
Avery:If we could just get one person out of every town in the United States (to show up at Ground Zero), I mean, how many people would...
...Approximately 40,000 more than you had.

Quote:
Avery: If we could get 100 people from every state, I mean, WOW!
Yes, and if I could win the lottery every day for a month, I mean, WOW!

Quote:
Bermas: We're going to be down at Ground Zero, Monday, September 11th 2006. ...We have to make it so the establishment has to sit up and take notice and do something. I'm hoping that they'll underestimate us...they were able to squelch the protests at the G8 summit.
The establishment did not take notice and will not be doing anything to help you. See, they're the establishment: the ones you accuse of murdering all those people on 9/11. The ones you say you're going to overthrow. Even if you ask nicely, they're not going to stand up and offer you their seats. You'll have to figure out how to do that on your own. Not a single thing has changed, except that your bank balance is much smaller. What? It's not as easy as shouting slogans, even if Alex Jones does the shouting? Why didn't somebody tell us that in high school?

In my opinion, these are the two of the best things about that day:

1) The protesters were far removed, in sight and sound, from the memorial service, and

2) The mainstream media kept their cameras and microphones fixed on the families. But don't take my word for it:

Quote:
And shame on the mainstream media in general for participating in what can only be described as a media blackout. Those that did mention it marginalized it dramatically.

We are not conspiracy theorists by any stretch.

We are a growing body of concerned Americans who have both investigated the events and experienced them first-hand, and we are absolutely convinced that our government is hiding the truth from us, whatever the truth may be.

Sincerely,
-Louder Than Words http://www.loosechange911.com


Quote:
Avery: If the media wants to cover Ground Zero, they're going to have to cover us.
Sorry, Dylan, you do not dictate what they have to cover.

Quote:
Rowe: If we get so many people down there, the news media, if they want a wide shot they HAVE to cover us.
Wrong. Why? Because they understand camera angles and you don't, and the city arranged the site to keep morons away from the memorial.

Quote:
Avery: The biggest thing that we're really trying to get going, is for people who know about this to show up at Ground Zero on 9/11 this year. It's a Monday. We're going to be there early. And every major media outlet in the world is going to be there. And this is our chance to break through. Instead of being viewed as conspiracy nuts, or wackos, and people need a real cause.
Quote:
Bermas: There's gonna be every major media outlet in the world at Ground Zero, and if they want a wide shot, they're gonna have to cover us, and a hundred signs that say "9/11 Was an Inside Job," and everything else. And if nothing else is done a year later, and there's no kind of progress in a real investigation, some kind of real prosecution so we can get these upper echelons of people, then in 2007 we're going down to the White House, and we're not leaving until something is done.
Quote:
Rowe?: Just another point: We're going to be at Ground Zero this year, wearing "Investigate 9/11" shirts, and every major media outlet in the world is going to be there. The news media won't be able to ignore us. They will have to cover us if they want to cover the memorial. If there's enough of us there, we can really make an impact.
The whole point of their protest was to get attention from the major media. It was an abject failure. I guess the hunger strike in front of the White House is on for 2007. My whole goal was to speak to the major media whenever I saw them speaking to the deniers. I never saw that happen. Yes, there were hundreds of cameras there. Most of them belonged to the deniers. My longest interview was with a reporter from the Nikkei stock exchange, believe it or not, and only because he sought me out. He said he hadn't interviewed the deniers. I did forget to call a reporter from the Village Voice who had left me a message, and missed a call from the LA Times, but it turned out it was too late for deadline anyway. How did they know about me? I had sent over 600 emails to 200 media outlets, telling them that the Loosers were begging for media attention while disparaging the victims, and asking them to avoid them like the plague, or to talk to me first. I doubt if my emails made a bit of difference in the coverage, but at least they didn't have the unintended effect of piquing anyone's interest unnecessarily. Bottom line: the mainstream media that the deniers both court and decry has respect for the victims of 9/11.

What about those "wide shots" that had to include the Loosers? There was a scrim placed on the fence around the whole WTC site which prevented gawkers from looking down on the ceremony below and cameras in the bathtub from catching any distracting action above. High on a balcony of WFC #2, west of the site, there were a few dozen mainstream camera crews. They looked down on the site to catch the action, not across the 1/4 mile to where the protesters were staged. Outstanding.

And when the mainstream media was near?

Quote:
BOTH SIDES of the street were filled with Black Shirts and Alex Jones took the Megaphone. Alex spit facts and led the crowd in chants of “9/11 was an inside job, 911 was an inside job, 911 was an inside job!!” The Truth movement was massive, and the media completely DISAPPEARED. At one point, an ABC news van drove down the street in front of us and were BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOed and screamed at to “do your job!!!”. http://forum.fearbush.com/index.php?...id=185043&st=0
That idea is right up there with sending threatening letters to the attorneys at Paramount Pictures! Go, truthies! As you can tell from the quote above, the "quiet protest" turned screamingly loud. That's when we went for a beer.

Another thing that was a huge help to us was that the black shirts mostly stayed in one place, their staging area across wide Church Street. When we got there, I was shocked to see that they were associating mostly with themselves. I had thought they'd be swarming everywhere, handing out DVDs, and that we'd have to hustle to chase them down. But that's not what the permit allowed. They were not allowed to congregate in numbers on the WTC site itself. They were allowed to march a prescribed route. That's right, they were herded and penned like...sheeple! After they marched away from the site, some black shirts stuck around and debated, but most of the deniers at that point were unafilliated with them. I had said I wouldn't be speaking to the deniers, but since there was no mainstream media to talk to, whenever we heard someone spewing swill to the private cameras and the community college newspapers, we chimed in. The difficult part about that was that once we started speaking, several deniers would interrupt, shout questions and exclamations, and generally make it difficult to have any kind of rational discussion.


Note the sign on the Century 21 store. Photo by Kate.

I certainly did raise my voice a number of times in order to be heard above the shouting. We also came across a number of deniers who were polite, didn't raise their voices, and seemed to be listening.

More from "Treez"
Quote:
Yeah, it's like this...People died there, so whether or not you agree with the official story, is pointless. For you to bring hate to a place where family members were mourning is just wrong. I'm proud to say that us in the 9/11 Truth Movement weren't disrespectful or hateful or violent toward anyone....

Anywayz, that went on for a while, and then the movement began walking to 120 Broadway, where Larry Silverstiens office is. The police blocked off 2 lanes of traffic and the Truth Movement gathered in the middle of the street. Alex Jones got on the megaphone again and started speaking about WTC 7 and other things. In the hour or so we were there, we chanted “Pull it! pull it! pull it!” and “murderer! murderer! murderer!”

Another thing I couldn’t help but notice was the respect, concern, and love that the 9/11 Truth Movement represented. And on the other side, the hate and anger and wickedness of the so called “ordinary” people. They could not debate one fact, they couldn’t talk without cursing or offending whoever they were talking to. To think that if it were them who died in the towers, and I had been there fighting for truth and wanting to know what happened to them, how unworthy they would be to protest for. I’m absolutely sure that there were good people that died in the towers, and not all evil hateful monsters like those there yesterday pretending to mourn. I dedicate my protest to any good person that died in the buildings, but it’s sad to say, those people I encountered yesterday in mass, are not worth protesting for. Next time they’re government kills them, I might just stay home and be quiet.
As Reality mentioned, one nice guy videotaped me for at least a half hour, and said he'd send me a copy. I hope he does, because he caught some encounters that I very much want to see the light of day. Fletcher Holmes, a young filmmaker from Georgia who interviewed Abby and me in July, was back for more.

At one point I was walking past three young guys with black shirts, and one noticed my name tag that said "Sensible Person." He chuckled a bit and said something like, "you did sound pretty sensible." That was a shock to my system, so I told him he deserved the name tag, and affixed it to him. It turns out that they were students from my alma mater in New Hampshire, filming a documentary. The first thing they said was, "We're not down with all of this stuff, but we do have a lot of questions." And I had a lot of answers. They filmed a good deal of my talk, although many deniers kept butting in, making it difficult for them to get their questions to me. I don't know if I totally converted them, but I turned them on to lots of good resources (we had flyers with internet links). We left on very good terms, and they got a good dose of how rude and ignorant some of the deniers are.

Looser encounters: I shook Rowe's hand and introduced myself (he said nothing), gave a pen to Bermas, and saw Avery twice. That's it. They stuck with the crowd for the most part. Didn't see Les Jamieson, but saw most of the rest of the Saturday crowd. The tiny insane lady who said she'd have me arrested if I answered her question was there asking me questions. I reminded her that she was insane. I forgot to give the international cuckoo sign to "See your soul" when he yelled at me, so I ran to catch up with him and did so. Tom Foti absolutely humiliated himself on camera with despicable behavior. Alex Jones wouldn't talk to me on Monday, and refused to go with me to engine company 10 to tell the firefighters they were in on the inside job.

We parted ways at 6:30 or so. I was going to go home for a dinner date, until I heard ranting in the distance...

Three and a half hours later, I did leave, but not until two men, both bigger than me, hugged me. At separate times. One was crying and the other nearly was. This does not happen every day. Yes, they had both been at O'Hara's a little too long.

Many firefighters from around the area and the country listened to us and shook our hands and thanked us. I had a long list of FDNY quotes about WTC 7, longer than anything I've posted here. One of them took dozens of photos of me with a very expensive camera while I was taking on the rantingest moonbat I've yet encountered (Who said he was a mechanical engineer, no less). The firefighter said he'd send me some pics. More stories later.

All of you JREF 9/11 debunkers deserve credit for the oases of sanity we were able to create. Thank you.
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Last edited by Gravy; 13th September 2006 at 12:53 PM. Reason: added caption
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Old 13th September 2006, 12:22 PM   #2
Kent1
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I believe the guy flipping us the bird is Jon Gold.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...19751782017310
He posts at conspiracysmashers website. He's a real crazy.
He's made various bizzare threats at the conspiracy smasher blog.

Wonderful job by the way!!!

Last edited by Kent1; 13th September 2006 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 13th September 2006, 12:47 PM   #3
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If I was a Catholic, I would nominate you for Sainthood!
Thank you! I look forward to the day I meet some of you!
Great Job!
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Old 13th September 2006, 01:22 PM   #4
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Good job all around. Kudos to all 4 or you.
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Old 13th September 2006, 01:27 PM   #5
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I wonder how many excellent pictures and videos are yet to be released because they are in private collections across the world.
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Old 13th September 2006, 01:36 PM   #6
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Gravy/Mark:

Words can't express. Thank you, anyway.

RK
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Old 13th September 2006, 02:15 PM   #7
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Thank you, Mark.
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Old 13th September 2006, 02:33 PM   #8
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Great job by all and I love the photos!
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Old 13th September 2006, 03:09 PM   #9
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I still want to hear the Alex Jones story.
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Old 13th September 2006, 03:19 PM   #10
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Excellent work, all of you who were there. Thank you very much.

Great photos and links and stories, too. Thank you again.
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Old 13th September 2006, 03:30 PM   #11
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Simply wonderful.
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Old 13th September 2006, 03:40 PM   #12
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Incredible work, Mark (and everyone else)!
Loved the flickr photos. The comment about carefully handing the pen over to Jason was priceless - had me laughing out loud at work.
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Old 13th September 2006, 03:45 PM   #13
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Gravy:

Excellent work. I only regret I didn't meet up with you there. I spent most of the time I was there on the side where the PATH station is, with occasional forays down the side streets. I didn't try to get down to the fourth side of the complex as a large and very stern-looking body of New York's finest were in my path. So, I contented myself with annoying Truthers on my side of the perimeter.

Again, well done.
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Old 13th September 2006, 03:49 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Gravy:

Excellent work. I only regret I didn't meet up with you there. I spent most of the time I was there on the side where the PATH station is, with occasional forays down the side streets. I didn't try to get down to the fourth side of the complex as a large and very stern-looking body of New York's finest were in my path. So, I contented myself with annoying Truthers on my side of the perimeter.

Again, well done.
Thanks for coming out! I would have given you my cell # if I'd known you'd be there. Were you there when all the black shirts were assembled?
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Old 13th September 2006, 04:13 PM   #15
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Editted because I can't post pictures to save my life.
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Old 13th September 2006, 04:27 PM   #16
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Five against a thousand, that's a collossal undertaking. You are a very courageous bunch.

I hope the regular people who heard the deniers saw them for what they are, a few ignorant bafoons.
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Old 13th September 2006, 04:34 PM   #17
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Thank you for this great insight into what went on a GZ. It is fantastic to hear first hand accounts of this and to see the deniers for what they really are.

Many thanks stateofgrace.
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Old 13th September 2006, 05:03 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Abbyas View Post
Editted because I can't post pictures to save my life.
[img]url for your pics[/img]

To find the url, right click on the pic (assuming you have it on a web page) and select "properties". Then copy and paste the url.
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Old 13th September 2006, 05:10 PM   #19
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A great read.

This photo.....is hilarious. Look at them all. In uniform. Like a herd of loyal sheep.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nyctour...7594282054792/
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Old 13th September 2006, 07:35 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Mancman View Post
A great read.

This photo.....is hilarious. Look at them all. In uniform. Like a herd of loyal sheep.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nyctour...7594282054792/
haha. That is a terrific photo.

Check out the police officer to the left. I believe I understand exactly what he's thinking...

Like I've told CT's I've encountered elsewhere, "The US Constitution enshrines your inalienable right to be an uneducated, ignorant loudmouth. But please don't exercise that right."

Gravy, Abby, Kate, realitybites, jhunter, great job. Always impressed how you keep your cool down there.
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Old 13th September 2006, 08:05 PM   #21
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great stuff, ill try and fly myself and the misses over for next year!

hails
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Old 13th September 2006, 08:11 PM   #22
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Fantastic work all of you. Thank you Mark for your recounting of what happened. I was motivated to post in my livejournal on 9/11 regarding the nature of humans, and how it is sad only disasters bring out the best in us.

With your actions at Ground Zero you have firmly shown just how human beings can being guiding lights all the time.

I salute you sir.

-Andrew
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Old 13th September 2006, 09:14 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
Fantastic work all of you. Thank you Mark for your recounting of what happened. I was motivated to post in my livejournal on 9/11 regarding the nature of humans, and how it is sad only disasters bring out the best in us.

With your actions at Ground Zero you have firmly shown just how human beings can being guiding lights all the time.

I salute you sir.

-Andrew
Hey, I gotta add you to our links list, Andrew. What's the URL?
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Old 13th September 2006, 09:20 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Hey, I gotta add you to our links list, Andrew. What's the URL?

Oh I'm not sure it'd be much use for 9/11 stuff... it's mainly vague musings about whatever... though I guess I could use it for research and stuff couldn't I? Hmmmm. Right I'm going to go post my NORAD doc to my LJ right now!

Anyway.

I muse here

-Andrew
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Old 13th September 2006, 10:28 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Mancman View Post
A great read.

This photo.....is hilarious. Look at them all. In uniform. Like a herd of loyal sheep.
Indeed. But it's even more apparent when you watch the videos. The blackshirts will chant for a while, stop and then get their cue from the leaders about what to start chanting next. No matter how convoluted and unintelligible to someone not versed in CT.

As I watched I kept thinking:

"Four legs good, two legs bad ..."

Great job to all who stood up to their lunacy. I doubt I'd have the patience.
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Old 13th September 2006, 10:33 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by shuize View Post
Indeed. But it's even more apparent when you watch the videos. The blackshirts will chant for a while, stop and then get their cue from the leaders about what to start chanting next. No matter how convoluted and unintelligible to someone not versed in CT.

As I watched I kept thinking:

"Four legs good, two legs bad ..."

Great job to all who stood up to their lunacy. I doubt I'd have the patience.
All people are equal, but some are more equal than others.
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Old 13th September 2006, 10:56 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by shuize View Post
Indeed. But it's even more apparent when you watch the videos. The blackshirts will chant for a while, stop and then get their cue from the leaders about what to start chanting next. No matter how convoluted and unintelligible to someone not versed in CT.

As I watched I kept thinking:

"Four legs good, two legs bad ..."

Great job to all who stood up to their lunacy. I doubt I'd have the patience.

In this context I think the chant is "Two planes good, four planes bad..."

(Given most CTers agree AA11 and UA175 hit the WTC, but dispute the stories of UA93 and AA77)

-Andrew
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Old 14th September 2006, 12:17 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
In this context I think the chant is "Two planes good, four planes bad..."

(Given most CTers agree AA11 and UA175 hit the WTC, but dispute the stories of UA93 and AA77)

-Andrew
four planes good, two planes better?
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Old 14th September 2006, 01:09 AM   #29
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Great work Mark and the Gravy Gang! Thanks for posting the stories and the photos - especially the Bermas/pen bit.

And wow, you really do look like Robert De Niro!
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Old 14th September 2006, 01:59 AM   #30
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Gravy:

I wasn't there for the grand finale, probably just as well. I did pick up about 10 copies of Loose Change. I quickly and surreptitiously deposited them in the nearest trash can as fast as I acquired them. There were probably less than a hundred Troofers on my side, but it might have looked like more because they kept walking around. I observed the same thing you did; for the most part they talked to themselves. When they did venture to talk to non-Troofers, the reactions were anywhere from polite nodding to outright hostility. I didn't see anyone who really seemed engaged with what the Troofers were saying.

It was a really nice, respectful scene. The Troofers obviously missed the entire point: the anniversary was a day for the victims and their families, not for Troofer nonsense. If they really HAD the respect they claim for the victims, they would have found some other day to have their big protest on (and they probably would have stood a better chance of getting media coverage, too). Let's hope they don't learn from their mistake and slink quietly off into the distance.

Last edited by jhunter1163; 14th September 2006 at 02:03 AM.
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Old 14th September 2006, 02:38 AM   #31
shuize
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Originally Posted by Shrinker View Post
Great work Mark and the Gravy Gang! Thanks for posting the stories and the photos - especially the Bermas/pen bit.

And wow, you really do look like Robert De Niro!
I'm not up to speed. What's the back story with Bermas and the pen?

Last edited by shuize; 14th September 2006 at 02:56 AM.
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Old 14th September 2006, 03:18 AM   #32
Mid
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Just want to add my words of appreciation to Gravy.

Also I find this quote from Treez amusing:

Quote:
To think that if it were them who died in the towers, and I had been there fighting for truth and wanting to know what happened to them, how unworthy they would be to protest for. I’m absolutely sure that there were good people that died in the towers, and not all evil hateful monsters like those there yesterday pretending to mourn. I dedicate my protest to any good person that died in the buildings, but it’s sad to say, those people I encountered yesterday in mass, are not worth protesting for. Next time they’re government kills them, I might just stay home and be quiet.
S/he sounds like a frustrated 19th century missionary bemoaning the ingratitude of the Godless heathens who ignore the blessed truth he's providing.
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Old 14th September 2006, 07:05 AM   #33
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/nyctour...7594282054792/

Is that really JDX?
If so, when's his birthday.
I have the perfect present for him .... a neck.
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Old 14th September 2006, 07:23 AM   #34
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I actually imagined him as some teenager, or early 20's at best. This dood looks like 30 something?
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Old 14th September 2006, 07:28 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
..... One of them took dozens of photos of me with a very expensive camera while I was taking on the rantingest moonbat I've yet encountered (Who said he was a mechanical engineer, no less). The firefighter said he'd send me some pics. More stories later.

All of you JREF 9/11 debunkers deserve credit for the oases of sanity we were able to create. Thank you.
You've gotta get a copy and post the picture. Who's our favorite faux-erudite observationist? You may have Troofseeker1234 on film!

I just went out and converted to deism so I could say God Bless You. I'm going back now to being an Atheist. I really appreciate what you guys do.

I spent the day in Hong Kong (our day is almost over by the time you're getting up in NYC) asking everyone what they thought of the theory that the government was in on it and it was all a big fraud. I'm still getting the same puzzled look when I ask. For the most part, the ex-patriates here have no idea that the 911 CT(s) exist. If they have any inkling, it's mostly stuff from Farenheit 911.

We get about nine news channels here. Not one mentioned CT nonsense in any broadcast. I don't think it's an item of respect for the memorial or that it would be in bad taste. I think(I hope) it's that no one takes these CTs seriously and there's very little interest.

Their paltry showing and the disinterest of the media may simply be an indication that they're preaching to their own choir. A thousand head count is fairly good, but after all their selling of it as the event to awaken the world, they have to be pretty down in the mouth. They'll rant some media conspiracy nonsense, but the hangers-on may not be so quick to turn up for their next non-event. Let's hope so.

On a more somber note, let's hope there aren't any T. McVeigh's in waiting in the group, who decide that this is the proof that they need to do something more dramatic. The various anti-Bush sites they hang out in also have some nasty elements out there and horrific links. The white supremacists and neo-nazis feed on disaffected youth.
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Old 14th September 2006, 08:44 AM   #36
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Mark, Abby, realitybites, Kate, jhunter:
You all have my utmost respect.
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
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Old 14th September 2006, 10:12 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Mid View Post
Next time they’re government kills them...

What?!? You mean the government can kill you more than once?? Do the e-vile neocons resurrect you to do it, or do we all have multiple lives to play with? Why wasn't I told of this? Here I was, thinking that when you die, you die. Now I know there must be a conspiracy here somewhere!!
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Old 14th September 2006, 10:30 AM   #38
Mid
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
What?!? You mean the government can kill you more than once?? Do the e-vile neocons resurrect you to do it, or do we all have multiple lives to play with? Why wasn't I told of this? Here I was, thinking that when you die, you die. Now I know there must be a conspiracy here somewhere!!
Just to point out that was Treez and not me saying the government resurrects corpses to kill again
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Old 14th September 2006, 02:10 PM   #39
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Just wanted to let the Ninja's know that I rec'd an email from Mr. Avery, yesterday. The man is so much snarkier online than in person.

Quote:
abby,
great meeting you on the 9th. I hope you guys fared well in your
endeavors...we sure did.
sincerely,
-dylan

My response:

Quote:
Nice meeting you too, Dylan.

Considering our goals were just to make sure that
people didn't lie or make false statements to the
press, our aim was taken care of by the lack of
coverage that you received.

Although, I have to say that I was surprised by Alex
Jones and Jason Bermas's lack of "yes, ma'am and no
sir" on the 9th when I got a chance to speak with
them. I certainly hope that Jason doesn't decide to
renege on his debate. It was his idea.

I was a little dissappointed that I didn't receive the
promised ass kickings and bitch slappings from your
message board.

But I thank you for being respectful towards me.

Sincerely,
Abby Scott
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Old 14th September 2006, 02:54 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
What?!? You mean the government can kill you more than once?? Do the e-vile neocons resurrect you to do it, or do we all have multiple lives to play with? Why wasn't I told of this? Here I was, thinking that when you die, you die. Now I know there must be a conspiracy here somewhere!!
thats what baal did to col o'neill (loss leader can back me up on that one )
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