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Tags 911 conspiracy theory , fraud , lauro chavez

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Old 27th September 2006, 06:44 AM   #1
chipmunk stew
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Lauro Chavez

I'm not sure if anyone else caught this, but ComfortablyNumb, on the British 9/11 Truth forums, discovered evidence of crude doctoring of Chavez's discharge document posted on InfoWars:
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/LChavez_214.pdf

The times in section 14 are tampered with:
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/vi...?p=26433#26433

I've saved a copy of the PDF from the InfoWars site, in case they decide to correct it.
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Old 27th September 2006, 06:54 AM   #2
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Further tampering is probable. The numbers in the dates in section 14 show pixel artifacts similar to the obviously altered weeks that do not appear elsewhere on the document. There are other areas where the data appear to be pasted in (where pieces of black print appear to be poking out from behind the edges of a white box.)
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Old 27th September 2006, 07:05 AM   #3
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Example:
In this section



"4 YRS - 7 MOS//" appears to be tampered with, and the pixel pattern of the "YRS - ... MOS//"



is identical to that of "2 YRS - 3 MOS//"


Last edited by chipmunk stew; 27th September 2006 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 27th September 2006, 07:17 AM   #4
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What is it that gives the tampering away? Is it those dots I see beside the numbers 4 and 7?
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Old 27th September 2006, 07:30 AM   #5
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Someone should ask for the full copy. What's he's posted is the "short sheet". The other 4 sheets have additional boxes at the botten that detail things such as the seperation code.

Also, I find it funny that he lists "Special Forces Qualification Course" but has no 18 series MOS. Also, SFQ requires attendence at SFAS first, although that might not be listed. I can check with my brother, as he's been through SFAS (although he was dropped from SFQ three times for medical reasons...bum knee kept going out).

Also, I question whether or not the form is complete. Seems a bit low on awards, but perhaps he was a desk jockey, so that's not definate.

What I'd ask for is a copy of his 2-1 and 2A, forms which detail military qualifications, dates of assignment, training, and similar. Basically, they're a summary of your military career.

The MOS numbers are correct, though. The 74B20 is the same job I have in the military, although it's been re-numbered as 24B20.

Only the dates in the education section seem odd to me..the rest looks as I'd expect for a military document. I'll see about posting one of my DD 214 forms.

I'm not sure I'd be ready to jump all over tampering just yet.
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Old 27th September 2006, 07:32 AM   #6
chipmunk stew
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Originally Posted by Josh Redstone View Post
What is it that gives the tampering away? Is it those dots I see beside the numbers 4 and 7?
That's a hint, but the dead giveaway is in the fact that the "YRS -" and the "MOS" have identical pixel patterns in both places--not likely to happen on a scanned document.
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Old 27th September 2006, 07:36 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
and the pixel pattern of the "YRS - ... MOS//" ... is identical to that of "2 YRS - 3 MOS//"
Further, the pixel pattern of the "4" in "4 YRS" is identical to the pixel pattern of the "4" in "74B20". Looks like that character was copy-and-pasted too.
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Old 27th September 2006, 07:42 AM   #8
chipmunk stew
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Originally Posted by Huntsman View Post
I'm not sure I'd be ready to jump all over tampering just yet.
It seems plain to me that it was digitally manipulated post-scan. In the crudest manner possible.
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Old 27th September 2006, 07:44 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by CurtC View Post
Further, the pixel pattern of the "4" in "4 YRS" is identical to the pixel pattern of the "4" in "74B20". Looks like that character was copy-and-pasted too.
Yeah, you can see the edge of the "B", too. The "7" in "7 MOS" was taken from "74B20" as well.
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Old 27th September 2006, 07:48 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Josh Redstone View Post
What is it that gives the tampering away? Is it those dots I see beside the numbers 4 and 7?
I saw those - it looks like the 4 and the 7 were cut and pasted from the "74B20" above - with the dots corresponding to parts of letters to the right of them (ie the "B" and the "4" respectively).
Now where's that Loose Change Forum chin-stroking smiley? .....

eta - damn that red cloaked ninja, he crept in above me.
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Old 27th September 2006, 07:52 AM   #11
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Hmm, interesting. I had noticed that some of the blocks, especially 14 looked odd. Why would he change that part though? You would think that if he changed something he would have given himself some relevent medals and some overseas time.
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Old 27th September 2006, 07:55 AM   #12
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What does "DD FORM 214-AUTOMATED , NOV 88" in the lower left mean? (bolding mine btw)
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Old 27th September 2006, 07:57 AM   #13
chipmunk stew
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Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
eta - damn that red cloaked ninja, he crept in above me.
Quiet as a breeze and swift as an arrow, he strikes, then disappears into the night with hardly a trace he was ever there...
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Old 27th September 2006, 07:59 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
What does "DD FORM 214-AUTOMATED , NOV 88" in the lower left mean? (bolding mine btw)
I believe it is just the name and version of the form. Nov. 1988 was when this version of the form was approved for use.
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:00 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by TheGrunion View Post
I believe it is just the name and version of the form. Nov. 1988 was when this version of the form was approved for use.
Copy. Thanks for the clarification.
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:02 AM   #16
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Well, I can't get mine small enough to post and it still be readable. I had to host it on a free website, which I dunno how well it'll work. Anyway, for comparison, here's mine from when I left active duty in 1997 (and yes, it says E2...I got into a bit of trouble):

http://www.geocities.com/tbrister@sb...es/Scan001.pdf

My 214 from after my deployment is not available online yet, I'll have to dig it out of records at home. In any case, you can see the extra blocks I'm talking about here, and see that it has a bit more on it.

Last edited by Hellbound; 27th September 2006 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:04 AM   #17
chipmunk stew
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Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
Hmm, interesting. I had noticed that some of the blocks, especially 14 looked odd. Why would he change that part though? You would think that if he changed something he would have given himself some relevent medals and some overseas time.
I don't know. But I suspect that the document is almost entirely fabricated. With his meager skills, he couldn't alter section 18 without being completely obvious. In that section, the line spacing is tight, the lines are neatly justified on the left, and the lines are nice and straight (no ups and downs and slight angles) across the page. Consistent with a word processor. The first two lines in section 11 are the same.

Compare these with the messiness, unevenness, and inconsistency of the rest of the document.
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:04 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by TheGrunion View Post
I believe it is just the name and version of the form. Nov. 1988 was when this version of the form was approved for use.
And just to clarify a bit, the "AUTOMATED" part means that's a computer generated form. If you look at mine, it does not contain that word...it was done on a typewriter.

The AUTOMATED form is filled out online then printed.
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:05 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by TheGrunion View Post
I believe it is just the name and version of the form. Nov. 1988 was when this version of the form was approved for use.
Bingo. DD = Department of Defense DA = Department of the Army, etc.
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:06 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
Yeah, you can see the edge of the "B", too. The "7" in "7 MOS" was taken from "74B20" as well.
And now as I look around more, there are lots of perfectly exact pixel patterns between sets of letters:

The letter T in: MAINTAINER, SYSTEMS, ANALYST
The S in ANALYST and the MOS right above it
The two As in ANALYST
The Y in SYSTEMS and ANALYST
The first two S'es in SYSTEMS
The E in SYSTEMS and the second E in TELECOMMUNICATIONS

It looks to me like the whole SYTEMS ANALYST info is forged.

ETA: Notice how the Ys in SYSTEMS and ANALYST have no serifs like the rest of the letters. Whoever forged it didn't have a Y to copy from so had to get it from somewhere else. They didn't notice that there is a Y up in box 2 on the first line where it says "ARMY/RA". And in that one, you can see that the typewriter makes its Ys with serifs.

ETA2: The forger didn't notice the typewriter Y on the first line, but it looks like he copied it from the pre-printed form's Y in the phrase "HOME OF RECORD AT TIME OF ENTRY".

Last edited by CurtC; 27th September 2006 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:07 AM   #21
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Has the tempering been done to try and prove, falsely, that he was at CENTCOM HQ during 9/11?

Here is a quote from the Infowars article...

Quote:
Despite early (and healthy) reactions claiming this may be a hoax designed to poison the well of the 9/11 truth movement, Sergeant Chavez has now provided us with evidence of his credentials, his honorable discharge documents showing the military installations he was located inside.
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:08 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
I don't know. But I suspect that the document is almost entirely fabricated. With his meager skills, he couldn't alter section 18 without being completely obvious. In that section, the line spacing is tight, the lines are neatly justified on the left, and the lines are nice and straight (no ups and downs and slight angles) across the page. Consistent with a word processor. The first two lines in section 11 are the same.

Compare these with the messiness, unevenness, and inconsistency of the rest of the document.
I don't think so. It looks more to me like some dates were changed to make it look as if he's been in service longer than he has been...the SFQ course seems fishy. The general look is correct, though.
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:16 AM   #23
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To me, the whole thing looks fishy.



Here, the space between the words is much smaller than the rest of the document, and the mark before "MARKSMAN" suggests a /:
I hypothesize that he inserted the word "EXPERT"
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:21 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by CurtC View Post
ETA: Notice how the Ys in SYSTEMS and ANALYST have no serifs like the rest of the letters. Whoever forged it didn't have a Y to copy from so had to get it from somewhere else. They didn't notice that there is a Y up in box 2 on the first line where it says "ARMY/RA". And in that one, you can see that the typewriter makes its Ys with serifs.
Yup. Looks like the Y came from "TIME OF ENTRY"
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:23 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by CurtC View Post
ETA: Notice how the Ys in SYSTEMS and ANALYST have no serifs like the rest of the letters. Whoever forged it didn't have a Y to copy from so had to get it from somewhere else. They didn't notice that there is a Y up in box 2 on the first line where it says "ARMY/RA". And in that one, you can see that the typewriter makes its Ys with serifs.
But the Y in 'YRS' is correct. This seems excessively careless.
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:29 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
Yup. Looks like the Y came from "TIME OF ENTRY"
I had just added a second "ETA" noticing the exact same thing!
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:30 AM   #27
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Well, Adam, I'd say this one's - BUSTED!
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:34 AM   #28
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I might be able to track down some info on this, I'll have to see what I can do legally, though.

I bet I could see about verifying a record at HRC, though. I'll find out.

IN any case, while I agree it looks fishy, I think we may be jumping onto some unrelated artifacts and drawing false conclusions. What we are seeing is a document that has been scanned and converted to pdf, and some artifacts may have been introduced in that process.

I'll look at the legal ways I can verify this, and see if a copy of this document (or more importantly a verification of service) can be obtained.

Last edited by Hellbound; 27th September 2006 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:35 AM   #29
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Now he is taking all of his toys and going home. I on the other hand, in an amazing bit of irony, have been called a "True truther" and "anonymous god like person"

http://www.911blogger.com/node/3202
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:38 AM   #30
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Found another artifact of photoshopping in the Last Duty Station block.



Looks like a flat line, as if he got the layers in photoshop out of order or something.
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:40 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by apathoid View Post
Found another artifact of photoshopping in the Last Duty Station block.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...a9a91544c0.jpg

Looks like a flat line, as if he got the layers in photoshop out of order or something.
Now that one definately looks fishy.
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:48 AM   #32
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Section 13. Decorations, Medals. etc has some editing too if I'm not mistaken. MERITORIOUS has the T from CONDUCT, SERVICE of DEFENSE SERVICE is a pixel perfect copy of SERVICE in JOINT SERVICE and SERVICE in MERITORIOUS SERVICE MEDAL.

What is the relevance of this guy?
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:52 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Huntsman View Post
IN any case, while I agree it looks fishy, I think we may be jumping onto some unrelated artifacts and drawing false conclusions. What we are seeing is a document that has been scanned and converted to pdf, and some artifacts may have been introduced in that process.
While I appreciate your prudence, it's the fact that scanning creates artifacts, that we're saying is damning evidence for fraud. It would be quite a coincidence for two letters to get the same exact pixel pattern, considering the random nature of the scanning process around the letter edges. But to have multiples, all centered around the suspicious SYSTEMS ANALYST information, complete with the glaring error of copying a sans serif Y for something that supposedly came from a serif typewriter, and it's well beyond any doubt.
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:55 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Huntsman View Post
I don't think so. It looks more to me like some dates were changed to make it look as if he's been in service longer than he has been...the SFQ course seems fishy. The general look is correct, though.
Actually that would make sense, based on his time of service he should have 2 NDSMs and 2 GCRs, however he only has one of each. So in reality he probably got out sometime before 2001.
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Old 27th September 2006, 08:55 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Section 13. Decorations, Medals. etc has some editing too if I'm not mistaken. MERITORIOUS has the T from CONDUCT, SERVICE of DEFENSE SERVICE is a pixel perfect copy of SERVICE in JOINT SERVICE and SERVICE in MERITORIOUS SERVICE MEDAL.

What is the relevance of this guy?
He's a supposed whistleblower who announced on air with Alex Jones that he saw confidential documents giving a direct "stand down" order.
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Old 27th September 2006, 09:02 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by CurtC View Post
While I appreciate your prudence, it's the fact that scanning creates artifacts, that we're saying is damning evidence for fraud. It would be quite a coincidence for two letters to get the same exact pixel pattern, considering the random nature of the scanning process around the letter edges. But to have multiples, all centered around the suspicious SYSTEMS ANALYST information, complete with the glaring error of copying a sans serif Y for something that supposedly came from a serif typewriter, and it's well beyond any doubt.
Well, why not try finding the same artifacts in mine? Not a good test, but might answer some questions I'm wondering, specifically, not about the scanning per se but the way pdf converts that into a file. Not real familiar with that, which is why I'm withholding judgement to a degree.

I do agree the documents been modified, just not sure on the extent yet
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Old 27th September 2006, 09:07 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Huntsman View Post
Someone should ask for the full copy. What's he's posted is the "short sheet". The other 4 sheets have additional boxes at the botten that detail things such as the seperation code.
I read that he applied for the GI Bill. In order to do that you have to send the full original to VA for them to process it, and they're supposed to send it back. I haven't seen mine yet and I sent mine in 04. To be fair, that might be the only one he has.

On awards, the JSCOM must have come from OEF; everyone gets a JS if they don't screw up, which makes it likely that everything before that point is accurate (then again, my 214 isn't correct, because it's kind of a hassle to get them to fix it the day you sign out and frankly the discharge was honorable so I didn't really need anything more). So, yeah, he's really light on awards. It doesn't look like he got a PCS award ever, maybe the MSM but he'd have PCSed more than once in 7 years, which is revealing. I had more than that in ~2 years in a TRADOC unit and 9 months in Afghanistan, and I was a mechanic!



Quote:
What I'd ask for is a copy of his 2-1 and 2A, forms which detail military qualifications, dates of assignment, training, and similar. Basically, they're a summary of your military career.
What he could do is log into AKO and get his ERB, it should still be up there and would only take minutes to do.
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Old 27th September 2006, 09:07 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Huntsman View Post
Now that one definately looks fishy.
I thought so too. And interestingly enough, the line is perfectly straight east-west(i used the selection tool in Photoshop to verify this), while the rest of the document is about 1.5 degrees tilted.

I'm wondering where he got all the text he added. I'm thinking he actually used a typewriter to type what he needed, scanned that page and then copy/pasted that into the blocks. Too bad he's a moron, because even a novice photoshop user could have done a decent forging job without leaving fingerprints all over the place.
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Old 27th September 2006, 09:12 AM   #39
dirtywick
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Actually you know what, my wife worked in an S-1 for years and she's kind of like an Army paperwork master, I'll run it by her and see if she notices anything crazy. That's not really my area, but she knows a lot more than I do.
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Old 27th September 2006, 09:15 AM   #40
Gravy
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Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
Now he is taking all of his toys and going home. I on the other hand, in an amazing bit of irony, have been called a "True truther" and "anonymous god like person"

http://www.911blogger.com/node/3202
I've always though of you as a known god like person.

Originally Posted by JamesB on 911Blogger, in response to Lauro Chavez's defiant but eversoloving farewell post
Gee, I hate to cause a negative vibe. What is the world coming to when you can't lie about your military record and falsely accuse senior officers of crimes without someone focusing on the negative?
And that is Chief Warrant Officer Bennett to you,
James
Hell, yeah. I used to work with a guy who always quoted his drill sergeant from 50 years earlier: "You break your mother's heart, but you don't break mine!"
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