High court to get 'Bong Hits 4 Jesus' case?

Mephisto

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No, really, and isn't that a great headline? :)

High court to get 'Bong Hits 4 Jesus' case?

POSTED: 11:14 a.m. EDT, August 30, 2006

JUNEAU, Alaska (AP) -- Former Whitewater special counsel Kenneth Starr petitioned the U.S. Supreme Court to take up Alaska's "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" case, a dispute involving a high school student, a banner and a tough school policy.

Starr, who gained national prominence while investigating former President Clinton's Whitewater land deal and relationship with Monica Lewinsky, filed the petition Monday on behalf of the Juneau School District in response to a March ruling by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.

The appeals court sided with a high school student who displayed a banner reading "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" during an Olympic torch relay in 2002. It ruled former Juneau-Douglas High School principal Deborah Morse violated former student Joseph Frederick's free speech rights.

The U.S. Supreme Court petition must receive a minimum of four of the nine justices' votes to be heard.

Frederick, then a senior, was off school property when he hoisted the banner but was suspended for violating the school's policy of promoting illegal substances at a school-sanctioned event.

"The principal's actions were so outrageous, basically leaving school grounds and punishing a student for a message that is not damaging to the school," said his attorney, Doug Mertz.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/29/bonghits.4jesus.ap/index.html
 
What I find sad is that Kenneth Starr apparently has nothing better to do than to worry about this situation. I really hope that the Supreme Court tells him to get a life and take a hike.
 
What I find sad is that Kenneth Starr apparently has nothing better to do than to worry about this situation. I really hope that the Supreme Court tells him to get a life and take a hike.

Ah, gone are the days when he used to captivate the GOP with tomes of soft-porn. ;)
 
What I find sad is that Kenneth Starr apparently has nothing better to do than to worry about this situation. I really hope that the Supreme Court tells him to get a life and take a hike.


You are really optimistic about the USSC.

For some reason, this case scares me. With the new idiots they have there, I can imagine that they'd rule in favor of Ken Starr.

And then go golfing with him.
 
You are really optimistic about the USSC.

For some reason, this case scares me. With the new idiots they have there, I can imagine that they'd rule in favor of Ken Starr.

And then go golfing with him.

If I conveyed optimism in our current USSC, I did so unintentionally. I can only hope that it tells Starr to take a hike. I didn't say that I expected it to.
 
If I conveyed optimism in our current USSC, I did so unintentionally. I can only hope that it tells Starr to take a hike. I didn't say that I expected it to.


This is one instance where the following saying is actually appropriate: I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you.

Maybe I'm just getting cynical.
 
SCOTUS has agreed to hear the case.

[Suspended student] JOSEPH FREDERICK: I find it absurdly funny. I was not promoting drugs. I assumed most people would take it as a joke.
 
That official saying that the student's message (alleged) supported drug usage really pissed me off.

So what? If a citizen wants to repeal drug laws and says so that is within their First Amendment right. Sheesh, this is ridiculous.

Lurker
 
No, really, and isn't that a great headline? :)

High court to get 'Bong Hits 4 Jesus' case?

POSTED: 11:14 a.m. EDT, August 30, 2006

The U.S. Supreme Court petition must receive a minimum of four of the nine justices' votes to be heard.

"The principal's actions were so outrageous, basically leaving school grounds and punishing a student for a message that is not damaging to the school," said his attorney, Doug Mertz.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/29/bonghits.4jesus.ap/index.html
We do not know whether or not Jesus smoked pot, hashish, tobacco, or other mixtures of stuff. I have no idea when pipe/hookah smoking began as a custom in the old world. (I am going to google smokes to check on this.)

It seems pretty certain that Jesus liked wine, so he may have enjoyed a good, mellow buzz to "get nearer, my God, to thee."

This guy's defense can be that he is of a sect that believes Jesus, like many Hebrews of his day, enjoyed a good stoning. :)

ETA: Whoops, that may be a bad defense. :(
http://www.hookahcompany.com/hookah_history.htm
The origins of the hookah come from the north western provinces of India along the border of Pakistan in Rajasthan and Gujarat nearly a millennia back [map]. These hookahs were simple, primitive, and rugged in design, usually made from a coconut shell base and tube with a head attached. They were designed to smoke opium [more], and hashish [more]. The hookah made its way through the Persian Kingdom [map], which also included Pakistan, Afghanistan, much of Middle Asia and Arab parts of Northern Africa
However, there may be some hope:
http://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis_history_hashish.shtml
700 B.C. - 600 B.C. The Zoroastrian Zend-Avesta, an ancient Persian religious text of several hundred volumes, and said to have been written by Zarathustra (Zoroaster), refers to bhang as Zoroaster's "good narcotic" (Vendidad or The Law Against Demons) (link to zoroaster evidence? texts?)
700 B.C. - 300 B.C. Scythian tribes leave Cannabis seeds as offerings in royal tombs
500 B.C. Scythian couple die and are buried (at grave site in Pazryk, nothwest of the Tien Shan Mountains in modern-day Khazakstan) with two small tents covering censors. Attached to one tent stick was a decorated leather pouch containing wild Cannabis seeds. Unknown whether this was for purely ritual or also intoxicating use of Cannabis. (link to info about the discovery?)
430 B.C. Herodotus reports on both ritual and recreation use of Cannabis by the Scythians (Herodotus The Histories 430 B.C. trans. G. Rawlinson) (link)
And with all the spices and herbs and incense running about in the Levant in Jesus' day, we get this confirmation . . .
100 B.C. - 0 A.D. The Pen Ts'ao mentions Cannabis for medical use
0 A.D. - 100 A.D. Construction of Samartian gold and glass paste stash box for storing hashish, coriander, or salt, buried in Siberian tomb
70 A.D. Dioscorides mentions the use of Cannabis as a medicament (Roman)
170 A.D. Galen alludes to the psychoactiity of Cannabis seed confections (Roman)
500 A.D. - 600 A.D. The Jewish Talmud mentions the euphoriant properties of Cannabis (Abel 1980
DR
 
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It was not on school property. The school claims it was a "school sponsored event" because they dismissed school that day so students could attend, if they wished. The student in question did not go to school at all on the day of the event.

School let out so students could go if they wanted to. Did the school sponsor the event? I would think they would have had to been an official sponsor if they wanted to call it a school event, especially given that it was not on school grounds.

For example, if the local Kiwanis Club is having an event where students are allowed to attend, and school officials let them attend, does that make it a school activity? Not at all, they are being EXCUSED from school to attend this activity. OTOH, if the school says we are having a Jump Rope for Heart, being held at the local Kiwanis Club, and school is dismissed for you to attend if you want, then that would be a school activity, even if not on school property.

I think the school would be hard-pressed to claim that it is sponsoring the Olympic Torch run, though.
 
We do not know whether or not Jesus smoked pot, hashish, tobacco, or other mixtures of stuff.
DR


Since tobacco is a New World plant, Jesus would have had to walk not just on a lake, but across oceans, to get it.

Would you walk a mile for a Camel? WWJD?
 
Since tobacco is a New World plant, Jesus would have had to walk not just on a lake, but across oceans, to get it.

Would you walk a mile for a Camel? WWJD?
I checked on the history of tobacco. We can probably assert with a high degree of confidence that Jesus did not try to pass a Camel non filter through the eye of a needle, since tobacco was still confined to the New World in those days.

DR
 
Since tobacco is a New World plant, Jesus would have had to walk not just on a lake, but across oceans, to get it.

Would you walk a mile for a Camel? WWJD?

Well there is the issue of some Egyptian mummies that tested positive for cocaine.
 
Late Breaking News! According to the Book of Mormon, Jesus stopped in the North America on his way home.
 
Late Breaking News! According to the Book of Mormon, Jesus stopped in the North America on his way home.

Well, since we now have proof that Jesus smoked this is proof that Mormonism is the correct creed. Someone better tell Tom Cruise.
 
Well, since we now have proof that Jesus smoked this is proof that Mormonism is the correct creed. Someone better tell Tom Cruise.
I, for one, welcome our new Mormon overlords. :goat



Hey, what's that goat doing in there? :confused:

ETA:

Wait a minute, I forgot, no caffeine. No Coffee!

*Darth Vader arising from the operating table voice*

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

DR
 
It was not on school property. The school claims it was a "school sponsored event" because they dismissed school that day so students could attend, if they wished. The student in question did not go to school at all on the day of the event.

The kid will win. The Supreme Court has ruled consistently that student's free speech can only be restricted if that speech is disruptive to education. Since there was no actual education going on, none was disrupted.
 
I'd like to believe that, but then again, this is not the same old USSC. You trust a court with Scalia, Thomas, and Alito?
 
The kid will win. The Supreme Court has ruled consistently that student's free speech can only be restricted if that speech is disruptive to education. Since there was no actual education going on, none was disrupted.

Apparently this was also on non-school property, putting the school at even more of a disadvantage. I'm guessing they'll rule in the kid's favor, using the argument that minors don't give up their free speech rights in general, even though the school can legitimately control speech on school property*.


* Or more accurately, where their sponsored education occurs, to include field trips.
 
Interestingly, while Bush came down on the side of the principal, religious groups are actually coming out in favor of the student. They're concerned that a ruling against him would open the way for future limitations on public displays of religious messages.

While it is hardly surprising to find the American Civil Liberties Union and the National Coalition Against Censorship on Mr. Frederick’s side, it is the array of briefs from organizations that litigate and speak on behalf of the religious right that has lifted Morse v. Frederick out of the realm of the ordinary.

The groups include the American Center for Law and Justice, founded by the Rev. Pat Robertson; the Christian Legal Society; the Alliance Defense Fund, an organization based in Arizona that describes its mission as “defending the right to hear and speak the Truth”; the Rutherford Institute, which has participated in many religion cases before the court; and Liberty Legal Institute, a nonprofit law firm “dedicated to the preservation of First Amendment rights and religious freedom.”

The institute, based in Plano, Tex., told the justices in its brief that it was “gravely concerned that the religious freedom of students in public schools will be damaged” if the court rules for the school board.

Link.
 
Didn't the Three Wise Men bring Gold, Frankensense,and Myrr to the Baby Jesus? I do recall when Myrr was a psycotrophic. Before it latley became a sauve?

My interpretation of"'Bong Hits for Jesus" would be that it is a parody of all those 'Walk for Some Cause of Exaggerated Importance That has Mass Appeal". Nobody ever holds a "Walk for Chronic Diarhea", or for basketballers, "Hoops for Hemoroids". So the kid was within his right to express both humor, and politcal speech. Out of school.

Hmm, if another kid had been hurt that day, would the school have felt responsible for the injury? Or would they say "Nope, not our responsibility, out of school"?
 
Read the transcript of the oral argument (PDF) here.

Before discussing the argument, let me offer a side note. The leading precedent on the subject is Tinker v. Des Moines School District (registration may be required for this web site). In Tinker, students wore black armbands to school to protest the nation's Vietnam polices. The students were suspended for refusing to remove their armbands. The school, as expected, asserted that it was acting within its disciplinary power.

The action by the school district was premeditated. The school district learned that students were planning to wear armbands, and thereafter adopted a policy against it. The discipline was not a spur-of-the-moment thing.

At issue was whether the school infringed the students' constitutional rights. The Supreme Court determined that the students' expression, which did not involve substantial interference with school discipline or the rights of others, is constitutionally protected. Justice Fortas, writing for the Court, said "It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

The Tinker case was decided in 1969, while I was a student in the Des Moines School District. Later, I would have the honor to work for both of the men who argued the Tinker case to the Supreme Court.

Turning to the Morse case, there are a few interesting aspects to the oral argument. Ken Starr, that lovable lug, came out of the chute characterizing the expression in question with these words:
Illegal drugs and the glorification of the drug culture are profoundly serious problems for our nation.
And Starr almost immediately got questions from the bench. Does he propose a rule related only to drug-related speech? No, Starr said. He thinks the Tinker rule ought to apply, "that there is, in fact, a right to political speech subject to disruption, requirements that the speech not be disruptive." The justices asked for specificity:
JUSTICE KENNEDY: Disruptive of what? Disruptive of the classroom order? There was no classroom here.

MR. STARR: Including but not limited to. This was a school authorized event, this was education outside of the classroom. It was essentially a school simply out of doors. It was essentially --

JUSTICE SOUTER: Well, I can understand if they unfurled the banner in a classroom that it would be disruptive, but what did it disrupt on the sidewalk?

MR. STARR: The educational mission of the school.
This sounds similar to the justification offered by the school district in Tinker. Even if the students were non-disruptive, the school district argued that it was within its power to take reasonable steps to prevent disturbance of school discipline. In other words, even if there wasn't actually a disruption problem, the school could punish the students to prevent a potential disturbance problem. This argument basically prevailed in the lower courts, but lost in the Supreme Court.

So in Morse, some members of the Court seemed to find it odd that Starr was relying upon arguments that failed to carry the day in Tinker. But Starr tried to draw a distinction: the students' banner, he said, was not "political," and the Tinker rule is directed to "political" speech. But here, Starr said, the speech was about drugs and illegal substances. Some of the Justices could hardly believe their ears. If a student said that drug laws ought to be changed, wouldn't that be political speech?

Justice Scalia to the rescue. This case was not about advocating a change in drug laws, he said. Rather, this was an urging to break the drug laws. Starr agreed, saying that the school district interpreted the message as encouraging the drug culture. Drugs are bad, m'kay, so therefore the school can discipline students for suggesting that drugs ought to be ingested.

The justices threw some questions at Starr regarding the scope of the school's authority, the nature of the message, the nature of the school-sponsored event, restrictions on time, place and manner. None of this was especially earth-shaking, but it makes for interesting reading.

Edwin Kneedler argued on behalf of the United States, which supported the school. Kneedler echoed the view that drugs are bad, m'kay, so therefore the school can discipline students for suggesting any message inconsistent with the school's educational mission. Justice Alito (among others) had trouble with this rationale:
JUSTICE ALITO: ... I find that a very, a very disturbing argument, because schools have and they can defined their educational mission so broadly that they can suppress all sorts of political speech and speech expressing fundamental values of the students, under the banner of, of -- of getting rid of speech that's inconsistent with educational missions.
This is a legitimate concern, one that is troublesome to all the justices regardless of political bent. If the school district in Tinker had simply defined its educational mission differently, should the result in that case have been different?

Further, some of the Justices weren't all that confident that the banner actually did advocate illegal activity. It could have been nonsense. It could have been a joke. (Justice Breyer got laughs in the courtroom when he turned the message into a Beavis-and-Butthead-like remark: "Bong Hits 4 Jesus, heh heh heh.") The best that Kneedler and Starr could do was to argue that the school officials reasonably believed that drug use was being advocated, and the Court ought to defer to that judgment.

Douglas Mertz argued for the students. This is where the fireworks got started. Chief Justice Roberts, who had asked some rather bland questions of the school advocates, came out of the chute with a dipsy doodle for Mertz:
MR. MERTZ: Mr. Chief Justice and may it please the Court: This is a case about free speech. It is not a case about drugs.

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: It's a case about money.
This is a surprisingly puerile remark, unworthy of a Supreme Court justice. It is also an insult, namely a not-so-subtle suggestion that the advocate is not interested so much in principle as in cash. No one had the bad manners to suggest that Starr was arguing the way he did because his clients didn't want to pay.

The case, having been brought under the appropriate civil rights statute passed by Congress, authorizes (and in effect, almost requires) naming the principal as a defendant and asking for a money award. Surely Chief Justice Roberts knows this. Mertz tried to turn the Court back to the legal principles at issue, But Roberts didn't want to go:
CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: But there's a broader issue of whether principals and teachers around the country have to fear that they're going to have to pay out of their personal pocket whenever they take actions pursuant to established board policies that they think are necessary to promote the school's educational mission.
Mertz answered quite correctly:
MR. MERTZ: That is indeed a legitimate fear, Your Honor, and we believe the existing law takes care of it by requiring before qualified immunity can be breached that there be a demonstration that under the existing law at the time available to her --
In other words, the Court is not here to debate the merits of the civil rights statutes. There is a wealth of precedent about various types of immunity that can be available to public officials accused of civil rights violations. But none of that is really in issue at this stage of the litigation. It almost sounded like Roberts was suggesting that, if the Court didn't like the remedy that Congress had adopted, the Court ought to consider curtailing the right that gives rise to that remedy. And that would be cause for worry.

Justice Souter tried to direct the discussion back to the real issues. Mertz acknowledged that certain content-neutral restrictions might be permitted, such as "No banners, no matter what they say." The problem is, of course, that the students were disciplined because of the content of the banner. Chief Justice Roberts darted into the fray again:
CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: But can't the school decide that it's part of its mission to try to prevent its student from engaging in drug use and so that it's going to have a viewpoint on drug use and that viewpoint is going to be that it's opposed to it and so that it takes a particular view with respect to signs that in their view seem to encourage drug use?
Mertz, in response to a question from Justice Scalia, took the Tinker line:
MR. MERTZ: Well, what matters is whether there is a substantial disruption of what the school is trying to achieve legitimately, whether it's a classroom lesson or a lesson on drug use. ... I believe, Your Honor, that a nondisruptive pin, badge, whatever you want to call it, would have to be tolerated.
Justices Roberts, Scalia and Kennedy seemed to have difficulty understanding why a school ought to tolerate any opinion that was at odds with what the school felt ought to be taught. Indeed, there were suggestions that any viewpoint at odds with the official viewpoint was either presumptively or automatically "disruptive":
CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: And disruption does not include undermining the message they want to send? It has to be some type of physical disruption[?] But undermining the message they want to send, they can't make the judgment that that's not allowed?
Now, one has to distinguish between court rhetoric and what a justice actually thinks ought to be a legal principle. It is hard to believe that Chief Justice Roberts actually believes that a school can deem disruptive any message that is in conflict with the official school message. If this were to be the rule, then Tinker would be effectively overruled, and long-standing First Amendment jurisprudence would be thrown into disarray. So this may have been rhetoric. And yet, the same theme kept coming up:
JUSTICE SCALIA: A school isn't an open forum. A school isn't there for everybody to teach the students whatever he wants. It's there for the teachers to instruct. And you're turning it into an open forum. If the school says, addresses one issue, everybody else has to be able to address that issue. ... That's not my vision of what a school is.
I always thought folks like George Carlin exaggerated when they said that schools are interested in forcing students all to think the same way, and they punish all students who dissent. That certainly was not the way it was where I went to school, in the Des Moines school district. But what some of the justices seem to be suggesting is that schools can and should do that very thing. Disagreement will not be tolerated. Students who express unpopular or unconventional messages will be punished, expressly because of the content of their message. The Tinker dictum, that students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate," will be a thing of the past.

One wonders whether those who suggest intolerance were themselves schooled in intolerant schools, particularly Catholic schools. Perhaps they felt that being forced to toe the party line didn't hurt them any. But I digress.

And the Court digressed a bit, too. Abruptly there was a discussion about the record in the case and what were some of the facts. Chief Justice Roberts put an end to that discussion:
CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Can we get back to what the case is about. You think the law was so clearly established when this happened that the principal, that the instant that the banner was unfurled, snowballs are flying around, the torch is coming, should have said oh, I remember under Tinker I can only take the sign down if it's disruptive. But then under [Bethel School District No. 403 v. Fraser] I can do something if it interferes with the basic mission, and under [Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier] I've got this other thing. So she should have known at that point that she could not take the banner down, and it was so clear that she should have to pay out of her own pocket because of it.
Once again, Chief Justice Roberts finds it distasteful that civil rights statutes can compel a wrongdoer to pay a sum to an injured party. He also finds it bothersome that the poor principal might not be able to understand the basic rules of law. And yet every principal ought to be able to understand that a student cannot be disciplined merely because the principal doesn't like the message. And besides, as Mertz pointed out, the principal wasn't exactly unaware of the rules:
MR. MERTZ: ... And she did testify that she had taken a master's degree course in school law in which she studied Kuhlmeier and [Fraser] and Tinker. ... We believe at the very least she should have known that one cannot punish a nondisruptive holding of a sign because it said something you disagreed with.
Justice Kennedy disagreed, apparently tipping his hand:
JUSTICE KENNEDY: Of course I disagree with the characterization on disruptive. It was completely disruptive of the message, of the theme that the school wanted to promote. Completely disruptive of the reason for letting the students out to begin with. Completely disruptive of the school's image that they wanted to portray in sponsoring the Olympics.
This view, if it carries into the final opinion, would overrule Tinker. A message with which a school official disagrees is disruptive and can subject the student to discipline. One things's for sure: that's an easy rule to follow. Make no mistake, the ruling, even if limited to students, would not end there. Once the Court says that an unpopular view can be punished because it is unpopular, and that the First Amendment is not offended thereby, then the First Amendment rights that everyone thought they had get thrown into question.
 
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One wonders whether those who suggest intolerance were themselves schooled in intolerant schools, particularly Catholic schools. Perhaps they felt that being forced to toe the party line didn't hurt them any.
George Carlin went to a Catholic school. ;) He made a lot of money from the material it provided to him. :D He does not appear to have become a grumpy old conservative in the process. These days, he appears to be running for Chief Curmudgeon of the United States.
Some of the Justices could hardly believe their ears. If a student said that drug laws ought to be changed, wouldn't that be political speech?
I share the confusion of the Justices, if not their fashion sense.

This case seems to illustrate the continuing series of absurdities inspired by The War on Drugs.

Note: At about the same time you were in the Des Moines school district, my high school marching band adopted the Budweiser theme song as a way to inspire the crowd to making noise for our struggling team. We used to all sing along, full throat, to sing about our first love, beer. (That many of us were underage, and has sucked down a few Buds pre game, is another matter.)

"When you say Bud, you've said a lot of things nobody else can say . . ."

I later learned how much better other beers were, but at the time, Bud was our King of Beers.

DR
 
School is compulsary. A student doesnt have a choice to attend school. I dont see why the school should have so much control of the kids.

I dont even like it when they bust kids who are caught drinking off campus.
 
School is compulsary. A student doesnt have a choice to attend school. I dont see why the school should have so much control of the kids.

Education is compulsary, school is voluntary. Kids can be homeschooled.
 
One wonders whether those who suggest intolerance were themselves schooled in intolerant schools, particularly Catholic schools. Perhaps they felt that being forced to toe the party line didn't hurt them any. But I digress.

Good summary, thanks for posting it. I'm a Catholic School "survivor" (12 years) and it's been my experience that the intolerance makes one as an adult more tolerate rather than less.

I think the first question here is: was this an organized class field trip (kid's had permission slips, they stayed together under the supervision of a teacher) or did the school just say, "go watch the torch rally, bye"? I'm of the suspicion it was the former since a public school can't just go around closing school for the day just because it wants to.

Next, if it was an organized educational activity outside of school does a school have the right to supress a student's free speech as it does inside the school building? Does that power "travel"?

And third, if that power does "travel" was the speech in question distruptive? Tinker would say no, Hazelwood would say yes.

BTW, did John & Marybeth Tinker's suit ask for damages? If so did they receive any from the school district when they won?
 
Good summary, thanks for posting it. I'm a Catholic School "survivor" (12 years) and it's been my experience that the intolerance makes one as an adult more tolerate rather than less.

I think the first question here is: was this an organized class field trip (kid's had permission slips, they stayed together under the supervision of a teacher) or did the school just say, "go watch the torch rally, bye"? I'm of the suspicion it was the former since a public school can't just go around closing school for the day just because it wants to.


Why can't it?

All I've read suggests it was the former. The student in question in fact never even went to school on the day in question. He would have not gotten in trouble had he not showed up, regardless of permission slip.
 

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