Basic Primer about Law and Court Procedure

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Inspired by another thread, I thought I'd start one where anyone who might be interested can ask questions they might have about how courts work in the English common law or American systems, or about legal terminology they aren't quite sure about. Maybe they have a lingering question they've wanted to ask for some time, but don't have a lawyer handy to ask, and it's not worth paying one for -- that kind of thing. Please note that I cannot and will not give legal advice applicable to a particular case, nor should anyone else here. I'll discuss matters in general terms. Always seek the advice of a competent, licensed attorney in your own jurisdiction should you need legal assistance.

So I'll start. This basic topic came up in another thread, but I declined to answer my own rhetorical question in it. I'll ask it again here and answer it.

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Q: What's the difference between a verdict and a judgment?

A: Cases in court may be tried before a judge and a jury, or before a judge alone. The former is called a jury trial, the latter a bench trial.

When a case is tried before a jury, the duties in deciding the outcome of the case are split between the judge and the jury. The judge decides matters of law -- what evidence is admissible, whether to sustain or overrule an objection, what matters are relevant and material to the case, whether a juror can be struck for cause, whether the plaintiff has met his or her burden of proving a prima facie case, among other such questions of law. Furthermore, at the conclusion of all the evidence, and after both sides have made their closing arguments, the judge instructs the jury as to what the law is which is applicable to the case. He or she explains the relevant law to the jurors, often putting it in the context of the case, but being careful not to suggest the jury should decide the case one way or the other. The judge must remain impartial in that regard and not choose sides. The judge also tells the jury what possible verdicts it may return, and answers any questions about the law the jurors may ask during deliberations (and the lawyers have a right to be present when the judge answers the questions).

The jury's duty in the case is to decide matters of fact. The jury's duties include looking at and listening to all the evidence presented during the case, listening to the arguments made by the lawyers, listening to the instructions of law given by the judge, and then deliberating amongst themselves about the case. The jury must weigh all the evidence, consider the arguments the lawyers made, consider the law as the judge told it to them, and decide what the facts are and how to apply the law to those facts. Once they have reached a verdict agreed upon by the required number of jurors (which must be all of them in some jurisdictions, but can as little as a simple majority in other jurisdictions for civil cases), they inform the judge's bailiff, court reporter, or assistant they have reached a verdict. Their verdict is then read in open court with the judge, the lawyers, and all the parties present.

A verdict is the final, formal decision in a case made by a jury. Judges do not render verdicts. The word derives from the Latin term veredictum and means "to say the truth." Thus, collectively, the jurors decide what is true in a case.

After the verdict, the judge enters a formal judgment based on the jury's verdict. The judgment is the order of the court and is the thing that governs the parties to the case. In a criminal case, a verdict of not guilty rendered by the jury would result in a judgment acquitting the defendant. A verdict of guilty would result in a judgment finding the defendant guilty, and the judgment would be complete upon the judge's sentencing the defendant appropriately, often after a separate investigation and hearing on the issue of the appropriateness of the sentence. A defendant adjudged to be guilty may appeal his conviction to a higher court, alleging that the trial court committed some error before or during the trial which resulted in some prejudice to the defendant's case. The state may not appeal a judgment based on a verdict of not guilty. If a defendant is acquitted at trial, that's the end of the case.

In a civil case, a verdict in favor of the plaintiff and awarding him $100,000 would result in the judge's entering a judgment against the defendant in favor of the plaintiff for $100,000. A verdict in favor of the defendant means the jury found the plaintiff is not entitled to any relief, or that the plaintiff failed to prove the elements of his or her claim against the defendant, or perhaps even that the plaintiff proved the case, but that the defendant had a satisfactory defense or legal excuse for his or her conduct. The judge would then enter a judgment for the defendant. In a civil case, the losing party may appeal the verdict and judgment to a higher court (and it gets tricky, because even the prevailing party may appeal the sufficiency of the award, for instance, and I won't even mention counterclaims and how a jury can actually find for both parties and against both parties at the same time).

OK, to sum that up, a verdict is the final, formal set of findings of fact and the application of the law to those facts rendered by a jury in either a criminal or civil case tried in a court of law.

A judgment is the formal order of the court entered by the judge and based upon and consistent with the jury's verdict when a case is tried before a jury.

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Contrast the above with cases tried before just a judge, as is common in many kinds of civil cases, and in criminal cases involving misdemeanors. When a judge hears a case, the judge has to assume and perform both duties I described above. Therefore, the judge acts as the trier of fact (he decides the facts, just like the jury does during the process of deliberating) and decides matters of law. A judge renders a judgment (not a verdict) based on his or her findings of fact and the application of the law to those facts. The judge then enters a formal judgment incorporating the same.


Final recap: Verdict = rendered at the end of the case by a jury

Judgment = a) entered by judge based on a jury's verdict (in a case tried before a jury, presided over by the judge); b) rendered and entered by a judge in a case tried to a judge in a bench trial.

I hope someone found this informative. Please feel free to post your own questions, and if you are a lawyer or a well-informed citizen, feel free to answer them. Just try to ensure your answers are correct statements about the law or court procedures, and try to be clear.

AS
 
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I hope someone found this informative. Please feel free to post your own questions, and if you are a lawyer or a well-informed citizen, feel free to answer them. Just try to ensure your answers are correct statements about the law or court procedures, and try to be clear.

AS
Grazie Mille.

DR
 
1. Can an improperly served subpoena (only sent in the mail rather than served pursuant to the CPLR) be safely ignored or does one actually need to have it quashed?

2. Can I just post all my work here?
 
You should also mention that a judge has the discretion to enter a judgment less than the verdict, but not more than it. For instance, if the jury renders a verdict of $100,000 in damages, the judge has the power to enter a judgment of only $50,000 (which the plaintiff can then appeal). And in a criminal case, if the jury returns a verdict of guilty, the judge can refuse to enter a judgment of guilty. This does require some sort of justification, however; a judge can't refuse to enter a judgment simply because he likes the defendant.
 
I think you may want to go over the difference between civil court and criminal court.

Just to go ahead and make sure that we appreciate that difference as well.

Just a thought. Thank you, BTW. Some of us are mere laypersons, but are somewhat curious about the world around us. Your effort is appreciated.
 
Also, a question I have...down where I'm from, a defendant elect to have a bench trial for a felony. Is this permissable in the states, and if so, why don't more defendants choose that option.
 
1. Can an improperly served subpoena (only sent in the mail rather than served pursuant to the CPLR) be safely ignored or does one actually need to have it quashed?

2. Can I just post all my work here?

1. The rules about proper service vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I wouldn't ignore a subpoena unless I was positive that it wasn't properly served and had no legal effect. The correct course of action is to consult with a duly licensed, competent attorney before deciding how to handle it.

2. No.

AS
 
You should also mention that a judge has the discretion to enter a judgment less than the verdict, but not more than it. For instance, if the jury renders a verdict of $100,000 in damages, the judge has the power to enter a judgment of only $50,000 (which the plaintiff can then appeal).

Well I could, but that would be an incorrect statement of the law and it is beyond the scope of my own question.

With respect to the court's ability to reduce the amount of a plaintiff's verdict, you are correct that under the right circumstances, the court can reduce the amount of the award. This is called remittitur. From wikipedia:

A remittitur is a ruling by a judge (usually upon motion to reduce or throw out a jury verdict) lowering the amount of damages granted by a jury in a civil case. Usually, this is because the amount awarded exceeded the amount demanded; however, the term is sometimes used for a reduction in awarded damages even when the amount awarded did not exceed the amount demanded.

Actually, you are wrong that the court cannot add to the amount of the plaintiff's verdict. There is a process that is the opposite of remittur. It's called additur.

An additur is a judge's increase to an award of damages made by a jury. The judge can deny a plaintiff's motion for a new trial provided the defendant accepts a specified additur. If the defendant does not consent, the court grants the plaintiff's motion for a new trial, and the defendant may appeal this ruling. If the defendant accepts the additur, the court denies the new trial motion, and the plaintiff may appeal the denial.

from Rupp's Insurance & Risk Management Glossary. © 2002, NILS Publishing. All rights reserved.

from Art Vandelay:

And in a criminal case, if the jury returns a verdict of guilty, the judge can refuse to enter a judgment of guilty. This does require some sort of justification, however; a judge can't refuse to enter a judgment simply because he likes the defendant.

Close, but not quite. There are two ways which can result in what you are describing. First, at the end of the state's case, the defendant's lawyer can move for a judgment of acquittal, asking the court to determine that the state has failed to prove each of the elements of the offense of which the accused is charged beyond a reasonable doubt as a matter of law. If the judge grants the motion, this takes the case out of the hands of the jury. The judge then enters a judgment of acquittal without ever letting the jury deliberate.

[This happens occasionally, probably more often than you might expect. I've even seen a federal district court judge dismiss the government's case against a defendant on the judge's own motion (lawyers and judges call ruling on the court's own motion, rather than the motion of one of the parties, doing so sua sponte or sometimes ex mero motu. The judge did this a mere 20 minutes into the government's case. The Assistant United States Attorney prosecuting the case was very frustrated by the court's doing so. The case she and the FBI had spent years putting together vanished in 20 minutes.]

The second way in which this result may be reached is post-trial. A judge must enter a judgment of guilty when the jury returns a verdict of guilty. The judge cannot simply disregard the jury's guilty verdict. Nevertheless, the defendant can file a post-trial motion within the time prescribed by law asking the court to vacate the judgment and to enter a judgment of acquittal (based on some defect in the state's case or on an error in the court's rulings during the case) or for a new trial because an error was made at trial that created a substantial prejudice to the defendant's procedural rights. Such motions are sometimes granted, but not very often compared to how often they are filed.

AS
 
I think you may want to go over the difference between civil court and criminal court.

Just to go ahead and make sure that we appreciate that difference as well.

Just a thought. Thank you, BTW. Some of us are mere laypersons, but are somewhat curious about the world around us. Your effort is appreciated.


Courts and lawyers divide the kinds of cases heard by judicial courts (as opposed to administrative tribunals, which is another topic) into two broad categories: 1) Criminal; and 2) Civil.

1) Criminal.

Criminal cases involve two parties: a municipality, the state, or the governnment in a federal case on one side, and the accused, or defendant, on the other. The subject matter of the case is an alleged criminal offense, or crime. The prosecuting authority -- the municipality, the state, or the government -- alleges the accused committed an offense. Crimes in the US are legally considered to be committed against the state (or government) itself, not against individuals. That is why you will find in any criminal complaint, information, or indictment -- the three possible types of formal charging documents in any criminal case -- terms like "against the peace and dignity of the State of X" tacked on at the end of the formal allegation of the offense. We often speak of individual victims of crimes, but technically every offense is one against the state or government itself. Examples of crimes we are all familiar with are murder, assault, rape, robbery, and theft.

2) Civil.

Civil cases are everything else. Any case which is not a criminal case is by definition a civil case. Civil cases run the gamut of conceivable cases tried in courts other than criminal cases. If a civil case involves a dispute, it must involve at least two parties, also called litigants because they are litigating a dispute, the plaintiff and the defendant. The plaintiff is the party bringing the lawsuit before the court, and the defendant is the one who is alleged to have committed some wrong, or broken a promise, or simply against whom the plaintiff seeks some kind of relief. Civil cases can, and often do, involve multiple parties. Sometimes there is more than one plaintiff, and sometimes there is more than one defendant. There can even be third parties involved, often designated as third party defendants or even involuntary plaintiffs. There can be hundreds, thousands, or even millions of plaintiffs in the case of a class action suit, or there can be dozens, or even hundreds of defendants in cases involving such things as large construction projects like skyscrapers or highways.

Examples of civil cases: divorce, child custody, child support, alimony, marital property division (all placed under the broad umbrella of "domestic relations" or "family law" cases), suits for breach of contract, automobile accident cases, antitrust lawsuits brought by the US Government against Microsoft for using unlawful anticompetitive practices, land disputes, the probate of an estate, a petition to change one's name (although this typically doesn't involve a dispute, so it doesn't require more than one party), a suit seeking a jury verdict as to a fair award of compensation from the government after the government has condemned the plaintiff's property and the parties cannot agree on an amount.

AS
 
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1. The rules about proper service vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I wouldn't ignore a subpoena unless I was positive that it wasn't properly served and had no legal effect. The correct course of action is to consult with a duly licensed, competent attorney before deciding how to handle it.

2. No.

AS

The jurisdiction is New York and I am a duly licensed attorney.
 
Also, a question I have...down where I'm from, a defendant elect to have a bench trial for a felony. Is this permissable in the states, and if so, why don't more defendants choose that option.

Yes, it is permissible.

Sometimes defendants do choose that option. The most common reason they do not, however, is the conventional belief that juries tend to find defendants not guilty more often than judges deciding cases do. That is not always the case, but it's the conventional and widely held belief.

AS
 
Thanks for doing this, AS.

It's really generous for you to offer to answer questions about the legal system.
 
Also, a question I have...down where I'm from, a defendant elect to have a bench trial for a felony. Is this permissable in the states, and if so, why don't more defendants choose that option.


The real question is why do any defendants choose to be tried without a jury. After all, juries are commonly known to be made up of twelve people too stupid to get out of jury duty. In today's "CSI" world, the chance of a defense attorney confusing a jury so badly that they just vote not guilty is greater than ever.

A bench trial almost insures that your evidence will be heard by an intelligent individual who can follow the logic of acase and disregard irrelevancy. That sounds like a terrible thing for a defendant.
 
Can someone explain what replevin is?

Replevin is an ancient concept from English common law. While the right of replevin exists in all US jurisdictions, few of them use the word anymore. And there's a good reason.

When someone wrongfully takes something belonging to you, you have the right either to sue for damages (the cost to you for the loss of the thing taken) or to get the item back. At common law, you had to choose which remedy you wanted before you sued. The right to get the thing back was called replevin. So one sued for replevin.

In most US jurisdictions, you can sue in tort and ask for both types of recovery. Since one doesn't have to specify one's preferred remedy at the outset, there is no real reason to call it by a separate name anymore.

A warrant of replevin or order of replevin would be the document directing the Sheriff to go seize the thing in question from the wrongdoer and give it back to the Plaintiff.
 
All of this lawyerly minutiae, well, saddens me. ;)

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming...
 
A question I have as someone who recently took and passed the MPRE?

Wasn't it a professional responsibility violation for Howard K. Stern to impregnate his client Anna Nicole Smith? My understanding is they would have to have started their sexual relationship prior to him beginning to represent her, at least according to the MRPC.
 
A question I have as someone who recently took and passed the MPRE?

Wasn't it a professional responsibility violation for Howard K. Stern to impregnate his client Anna Nicole Smith? My understanding is they would have to have started their sexual relationship prior to him beginning to represent her, at least according to the MRPC.

The answer is a surprising "probably not." The ethics of personal relationships with clients are only black and white in one area - matrimonial law. At least in New York, it is specifically prohibited for a matrimonial attorney to date a client. This is because matrimonial clients are considered to be emotionally vulnerable and the lawyer might use his position to impose himself where he would otherwise not be welcome.

But if I'm a woman's real estate attorney, why shouldn't I be allowed to date her? She's not in an emotionally vulnerable position. It doesn't make it any harder for me to zealously represent her and, if we break up, she can fire me as easily as she ever could. The only reason I don't do it, generally, is because my wife would kill me.
 
The real question is why do any defendants choose to be tried without a jury. After all, juries are commonly known to be made up of twelve people too stupid to get out of jury duty. In today's "CSI" world, the chance of a defense attorney confusing a jury so badly that they just vote not guilty is greater than ever.

A bench trial almost insures that your evidence will be heard by an intelligent individual who can follow the logic of acase and disregard irrelevancy. That sounds like a terrible thing for a defendant.

I've always thought if the defendant had a good legal argument but "bad facts" (child molestation charges for example) that a bench trial might be the better choice.

As a follow up question, I've heard (but never checked) that there may actually be jurisdictions in which prosecutors can demand a jury trial even against a defendant's wishes -- does anyone know if there's any truth to this?
 
The answer is a surprising "probably not." The ethics of personal relationships with clients are only black and white in one area - matrimonial law. At least in New York, it is specifically prohibited for a matrimonial attorney to date a client. This is because matrimonial clients are considered to be emotionally vulnerable and the lawyer might use his position to impose himself where he would otherwise not be welcome.

But if I'm a woman's real estate attorney, why shouldn't I be allowed to date her? She's not in an emotionally vulnerable position. It doesn't make it any harder for me to zealously represent her and, if we break up, she can fire me as easily as she ever could. The only reason I don't do it, generally, is because my wife would kill me.

okay, I don't know the NY code but I think the model code is different and more restrictive on this.
 
I've always thought if the defendant had a good legal argument but "bad facts" (child molestation charges for example) that a bench trial might be the better choice.

As a follow up question, I've heard (but never checked) that there may actually be jurisdictions in which prosecutors can demand a jury trial even against a defendant's wishes -- does anyone know if there's any truth to this?

I don't see how that could possibly be true. Jury trials exist solely as a right for certain type defendants, in my understanding. Not as some kind of right for the state.
 
A bench trial almost insures that your evidence will be heard by an intelligent individual who can follow the logic of acase and disregard irrelevancy. That sounds like a terrible thing for a defendant.
Not if the logic of the case demands an acquittal.

When someone wrongfully takes something belonging to you, you have the right either to sue for damages (the cost to you for the loss of the thing taken) or to get the item back.
The impression that I get is that the latter right is usually not enforced; if a defendant pays whatever is determined to be the FMV, the plaintiff has little recourse beyond that.

But if I'm a woman's real estate attorney, why shouldn't I be allowed to date her? She's not in an emotionally vulnerable position. It doesn't make it any harder for me to zealously represent her and, if we break up, she can fire me as easily as she ever could. The only reason I don't do it, generally, is because my wife would kill me.
I guess the flip side is that if a lawyer isn't allowed to date someone he's representing, that means he isn't allowed to represent someone he's dating (or married to). And it's basic right to be represented by whomever one wants; for the government to prohibit your spouse from helping you would be quite an imposition on your rights.

[This happens occasionally, probably more often than you might expect. I've even seen a federal district court judge dismiss the government's case against a defendant on the judge's own motion (lawyers and judges call ruling on the court's own motion, rather than the motion of one of the parties, doing so sua sponte or sometimes ex mero motu. The judge did this a mere 20 minutes into the government's case. The Assistant United States Attorney prosecuting the case was very frustrated by the court's doing so. The case she and the FBI had spent years putting together vanished in 20 minutes.]
I take it the judge did so on the basis of more than just the content of those 20 minutes (list of evidence, etc.)? Did the same judge issue the indictment in the first place? In such a case, does jeopardy attach?

The second way in which this result may be reached is post-trial.
What do you mean by "post-trial"? My understanding is that if the jury returns a guilty verdict, a judge can, if he believes that the verdict has insufficient facts to support it, declare right then and there that it vacated.
 
The impression that I get is that the latter right is usually not enforced; if a defendant pays whatever is determined to be the FMV, the plaintiff has little recourse beyond that.

There are plenty of things a plaintif would rather have back than have the money for - paintings, antiques, sex tapes, etc.
 
Oh, come on. Howard Stern isn't unethical for boinking Anna Nicole because she's a client. He's unethical for boinking Anna Nicole because she's got the mental age of a two-year-old.
 
Here's a question I used to get quite a bit from my clients: "What is a 'Motion In Limiminee--Linime--Liminine--Limine?'"

A good question often asked by very smart people. They've never heard of such a thing. But the motion is a very important tool to a trial lawyer.

As I tell law students, a "Motion in Limine" is one of those documents that you prepare for a trial before a jury. You always prepare a set of annotated instuctions, a trial brief, a list of exhibits, draft pre-trial and mid-trial motions, other documents required by the Court or by court rules, and ... a Motion in Limine.

A "Motion in Limine" is a motion made at the "threshold" of a trial. "You've heard of the word 'subliminal,' haven't you?' I ask folks. "It means 'below the threshold' of perception. Well, a Motion in Limine means 'at the threshold'--or just before the start of--a trial. It's Latin."

Basically, the Motion in Limine asks the judge to set some ground rules in advance about what a jury can or cannot hear in court. Basically, you don't want evidence to even be hinted at that is damaging to your case and that would not be admitted as evidence in any event. You want to get the Court to tell your opponent: "No dirty tricks will be tolerated."

For example: Suppose there is a lawsuit about a car crash. The Plaintiff might file a Motion in Limine asking the Court to declare that the attorneys and witnesses be prohibited from mentioning that the Plaintiff was once arrested for possession of child pronography. After all, this incident had nothing to do with the car crash, and it would only serve to make the jury think that the Plaintiff was a first-class jerk (and therefore not deserving of any award, regardless of the merit of his case). If the judge grants the Plaintiff's Motion, a mere question such as "You were arrested last year form possession of child pornography, weren't you?" would be out of bounds.

Similarly, the Defendant might have a Motion in Limine about the question of insurance: whether he has car insurance, with what company, and what his policy limits are. None of this information is relevant to the car crash, and it might encourage the jury to base its award upon the amount of insurance, rather than the degree of fault.
 
I have a question, coming from another thread.

If I have the desire to back an organization against an extremely unlikely event occurring, on par with someone winning the Million Dollar Challenge, how is this generally done?

I'm looking for a Lloyd's of London style arrangement.
 
In civil cases, what transgressions might result in a judgement which is effectively "indefinite incarceration"?
 
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I take it the judge did so on the basis of more than just the content of those 20 minutes (list of evidence, etc.)? Did the same judge issue the indictment in the first place? In such a case, does jeopardy attach?

The judge stopped the prosecutor during her examination of her first witness, after watching her introduce more than a dozen exhibits consisting of bank records, and told her and the defense attorney to approach the bench. He asked her what other evidence did she have other than those bank records that a crime had been committed. She replied that her case revolved around those bank statements, and similar ones showing a pattern. He allowed her to make an offer of proof of what those exhibits would show, and he told her he didn't see evidence of a crime as alleged in the indictment. He then dismissed the jury and the case.

A judge doesn't issue an indictment. A grand jury made up of ordinary citizens issues the indictment, after a hearing on the matter in a special hearing room within the offices of the United States Attorney (the prosecutor), or the District Attorney in state cases. It is a secret proceeding, and the defendant and his lawyer are not allowed to attend, nor is the public, nor is the judge.

In a jury case, jeopardy attachs the moment the petit jurors (the ones at trial, not the grand jurors) are sworn in.

What do you mean by "post-trial"? My understanding is that if the jury returns a guilty verdict, a judge can, if he believes that the verdict has insufficient facts to support it, declare right then and there that it vacated.

I mean after the trial. It comes before the court on motion of the defendant, although I suppose a court can also raise the issue on its own motion. Although I think what you suggest is technically possible, it never occurs in practice. The reason is that if the judge believes there is insufficient evidence to support a guilty verdict, then he or she will not allow the case to go to the jury at all. The judge would simply grant the defendant's motion to enter a judgment of acquittal, or the court would do it on its own motion. That ends the case. It would be reversible error to allow a case not supported by sufficient evidence to go to a jury for its deliberation.

Of course, trial judges sometimes make mistakes in their rulings regarding the sufficiency of the evidence. When they err on the side of the defendant, the case is over, and the state has no right to appeal. When they err on the side of allowing a case to go to the jury without sufficient evidence to support a guilty verdict, however, and the jury returns a guilty verdict, the defendant can appeal and an appellate court can reverse the trial court and set aside the guilty verdict.

Verdicts are not vacated, only judgments are.

AS
 
I have a question, coming from another thread.

If I have the desire to back an organization against an extremely unlikely event occurring, on par with someone winning the Million Dollar Challenge, how is this generally done?

I'm looking for a Lloyd's of London style arrangement.

I think you want Risk Management, which is down the hall. This is Basic Primer about Law and Court Procedure.

Sorry, I don't mean to be glib, but what you're asking isn't a legal question. It's one about insurance and risk management. I would suggest that you speak with an insurance agency that writes policies for commercial activities.

Otherwise, you might try Google, if your question is purely academic.

AS
 
In civil cases, what transgressions might result in a judgement which is effectively "indefinite incarceration"?

The only way to be incarcerated in a civil case is for contempt of court - refusing to obey a court order. Incarceration for an indefinite period would occur if a person, capable of performing the order of the court, simply continues to refuse to do so. I know of only two cases of lengthy incarceration for contempt: a mother who sent her child "underground" rather than lose custody to the child's father; and a journalist who would not reveal a source. Recent Supreme Court cases, however, have limitted incarceration in at least the instance of the reporter, stating that after some time in jail, it's clear the reporter will never reveal the source and incarceration serves no purpose.
 
In civil cases, what transgressions might result in a judgement which is effectively "indefinite incarceration"?

Take your trolling somewhere else, DD.

After having your ass handed to you dozens of times in your contempt thread, I would think that anyone with an ounce of self-respect or dignity would know better than to try to rehash that argument. Face it, you lost it miserably. Now, please go away quietly, as I believe you've forfeited the privilege of asking any legal questions on this message board and expecting any serious replies.

AS
 
The only way to be incarcerated in a civil case is for contempt of court - refusing to obey a court order. Incarceration for an indefinite period would occur if a person, capable of performing the order of the court, simply continues to refuse to do so. I know of only two cases of lengthy incarceration for contempt: a mother who sent her child "underground" rather than lose custody to the child's father; and a journalist who would not reveal a source. Recent Supreme Court cases, however, have limitted incarceration in at least the instance of the reporter, stating that after some time in jail, it's clear the reporter will never reveal the source and incarceration serves no purpose.
Thanks for the reply, Loss Leader. It confirms what I thought, which is always nice. :)
 
Take your trolling somewhere else, DD.

After having your ass handed to you dozens of times in your contempt thread, I would think that anyone with an ounce of self-respect or dignity would know better than to try to rehash that argument. Face it, you lost it miserably. Now, please go away quietly, as I believe you've forfeited the privilege of asking any legal questions on this message board and expecting any serious replies.

AS
Sorry you feel unable to answer my question, AS. I wasn't aware that only some posters could expect relevant answers to the questions they asked on your thread. Once again, my apologies.
 
Could jail also be imposed for perjury ocurring during the course of a civil trial?

Also: Martha Stewart, in what was clearly a civil matter, ended up going to jail for allegedly telling a fib to the authorities, not even perjuring herself under oath in a court.

Aren't contempt and/or perjury technically criminal offenses even if they occur during a civil trial or with respect to a civil matter? Or are there instances of civil contempt versus cirminal contempt?
 
The only way to be incarcerated in a civil case is for contempt of court - refusing to obey a court order. Incarceration for an indefinite period would occur if a person, capable of performing the order of the court, simply continues to refuse to do so. I know of only two cases of lengthy incarceration for contempt: a mother who sent her child "underground" rather than lose custody to the child's father; and a journalist who would not reveal a source. Recent Supreme Court cases, however, have limitted incarceration in at least the instance of the reporter, stating that after some time in jail, it's clear the reporter will never reveal the source and incarceration serves no purpose.

LL,

Please see this thread. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64099

In it, you will find a demonstration of why DD should not be taken seriously when posing any legal question. I suggest you simply take my word for it, however, rather than spend the countless hours required to understand by wading through that thread.

Also, in the OP of that thread you will find another instance of someone's being held indefinitely for contempt of court. DD already knew that when he posed his question in this thread, so your response to him was some sort of vindication to him. You just suggested to him that he was right all along, and that everyone else in that thread is wrong.

Please don't fall for his feigned ignorance and disingenuous reply to me in this thread. His initial post in this thread is nothing but a vain attempt to pollute this thread with his own uninformed opinion that the U.S. legal and judicial systems are inherently unjust.

You got played by responding. I suggest that you refrain from responding again. He's merely using this thread as a second platform for his obstinate position that he refuses to yield.

AS
 
LL,

Please see this thread. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64099

In it, you will find a demonstration of why DD should not be taken seriously when posing any legal question. I suggest you simply take my word for it, however, rather than spend the countless hours required to understand by wading through that thread.

Also, in the OP of that thread you will find another instance of someone's being held indefinitely for contempt of court. DD already knew that when he posed his question in this thread, so your response to him was some sort of vindication to him. You just suggested to him that he was right all along, and that everyone else in that thread is wrong.

Please don't fall for his feigned ignorance and disingenuous reply to me in this thread. His initial post in this thread is nothing but a vain attempt to pollute this thread with his own uninformed opinion that the U.S. legal and judicial systems are inherently unjust.

You got played by responding. I suggest that you refrain from responding again. He's merely using this thread as a second platform for his obstinate position that he refuses to yield.

AS
:)

AS,have you ever considered a career in politics? Your ability to slander and guess the evil mindset of others who don't feel as you do, is certainly well developed.
 
Could jail also be imposed for perjury ocurring during the course of a civil trial?

Also: Martha Stewart, in what was clearly a civil matter, ended up going to jail for allegedly telling a fib to the authorities, not even perjuring herself under oath in a court.

Aren't contempt and/or perjury technically criminal offenses even if they occur during a civil trial or with respect to a civil matter? Or are there instances of civil contempt versus cirminal contempt?

Good question. In a civil proceeding, it's the judge that issues contempt, not the govt. prosecutor. But, I believe you have to be convicted of perjury, which I think would necessitate a govt. prosecution.
 
While I don't want to drag the discussions of the thread AS refers to into this thread, as AS felt obliged to do, I'll just say that LL did not in any way walk into a trap I set. He spoke his opinion and I was just happy that in some few ways it coincided with mine.
 

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