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Tags 911 conspiracy theory , flight data recorder , johndoex , rob balsamo

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Old 10th October 2006, 09:27 PM   #1
Anti-sophist
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More, quick, proof that JDX is in way over his head

In his recent attempt to "disprove" the pentagon crash using FDR data, he has chosen to now combine two different columns in the FDR to extract his linear trajectory:

He uses the altimeter (or airspeed, maybe) to get an initial velocity, and then uses the G-Force meter to calculate the intermediete and extrapolated velocities. My hypothesis is that the recorded times of these events do not correspond to the measured times.

Under my hypothesis, the altimeter readings or G-Force readings would lag behind, one way or the other, in time, depending on the construction of the system and the PCM dataframe used to record the data. I don't want to get into the technical details of PCM frames here, but suffice to say data has a +/- 1/8 second error, just from the PCM encoding, alone (unless we know the structure of the PCM frame, which I don't believe exists in the public domain)

I used the last 30 seconds of the flight to calculate the acceleration the altimeter felt, based upon reasonable initial velocity and acceleration numbers, and I compared that with the actual G-forces measured.

Keep in mind, this is two seperate sensors, essentially sensing the same quantity:

(purple is the accelerometer, blue is the altimeter)
http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?i...dxdelayfn9.png

Keep in mind, these are two seperate measurements, JDX has no problems adding and subtracting, at equal times (noting the differences, in the x-axis, of the peaks and valleys).

The graph clearly shows an average difference of about .5s to .75s, with as much as 2s, between the accelerometer and the altimeter, with the accelerometer measurement delay being more.

What does this mean? The accelerometer data in the CSV file is at least .75 + the measurement delay of the altimeter, from real time. So those acceleration numbers he's using for the final second, didn't happen in the final second.

Last edited by Anti-sophist; 10th October 2006 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 10th October 2006, 09:35 PM   #2
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Do'h, I thought it said "More, quick, proof that JDX is on his way over to this thread"
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Old 10th October 2006, 09:37 PM   #3
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Oh, don't worry, he'll be here. I doubt he'll post anything though. He is much happier being the big math-fish in the very small math-pond over on the LC forum.
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Old 10th October 2006, 09:41 PM   #4
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Anyone seen weedwacker lately?
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Old 10th October 2006, 09:55 PM   #5
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Funny you should ask...
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Old 10th October 2006, 11:35 PM   #6
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Anti-sophist, I have a question.

I'm trying to understand your point about the time correlation of the different data channels by analogy to my experience of multi-channel PCM digital audio recording systems, specifically the "modular digital multitrack" machines, i.e., ADAT or DTRS format, which record 8 channels of digital audio on videocassette.

In these systems, each analog input has its own sample/hold and A/D converter. The S/H circuits are driven by the same aperture clock, so sampling for each channel is simultaneous, and the clocking for the A/Ds is shared among all channels, so the conversion for each channel is complete pretty much simultaneously as well.

However, since the videocassette transport has only one recording channel, the data streams from each A/D are buffered and assembled into a frame structure such that they are recorded on the tape sequentially, one channel's worth of data for that sample interval after another.

In playback, the data coming off tape is demultiplexed, buffered and fed to an individual D/A converter for each channel. The sample/hold circuits at the output of each D/A are again all driven by the same aperture clock, so that the analog outputs are once again simultaneous. Since tape transports don't operate at a perfectly constant speed, buffering the off-tape data and reading it out referenced to a stable clock also provides timebase correction.

If the aperture clocks of each of the front-end S/Hs weren't simultaneous, it could still be possible to organize the data coming from each A/D into a frame and record it on the tape, but simultaneity between channels would be lost.

As far as I can tell from the description of the FDR given in the NTSB's Specialist's Factual Report of Investigation for the AA77 DFDR, the recording process is somewhat analogous to what I've just described, with the recorder portion receiving data as a serial, time-multiplexed data stream from the data acquisition system.

If I haven't strained the analogy too far, the simultaneity of data points between channels would be dependent on how the DAQ system handles sampling and quantizing inputs from the different sensors, and without knowing that information there's no way to be sure of whether data points recorded in the same subframe were sampled at the same time.

Is that more or less what you're driving at?

Also, how do you derive the +- 1/8 second figure for the uncertainty due to the encoding?
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Last edited by ktesibios; 10th October 2006 at 11:35 PM. Reason: fixed a bold tag
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Old 11th October 2006, 05:15 AM   #7
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AS said the aircraft needs to pull 3 G's for one full second in order to pull out of that dive. The FDR never gets above 1.7 G's.

I cannot understand why he would use +/- 1/8th of a second. If that is all he has to hold onto for recorded data as it being inaccurate, he has a real problem.

Please review the animation provided by the NTSB. JDX sent me this animation the other day. Headings, airspeed, altitudes, all match the csv file time stamps and real world information such as departure from Dulles.

Bottom line, AS needs to account for 3 G's (his own words) for 1 full second in order to pull out of that dive.

I have also seen JDX's challenge for debate. Here is the full quote.
Quote:

All/Any JREF'ers are welcome to sign up here for this debate. Once one instance of name calling/ridicule/attempts at character assassination is used.. you're gone.


Once this thread gets off topic due to "You're not a pilot JDX".. you're gone. Either debate the facts above.. or dont post.

Deal?
Quote:

[crickets chirping]


I guess JREFers cant hold an intellectual debate without name calling. Seems no one wants to debate this....

Im not surprised.. it makes Billzilla look like he doesnt know what he's doing.
I'm sure if you people can refrain from name calling, stick to the topic and debate the facts, it seems JDX welcomes you. However, in my short experience on this site that may not be possible. I haven't done anything here in terms of attacking someone and so far I have been attacked just for posting. JDX also says MarkyX (whoever that is) is pre-registered at Pilots For Truth and knows about it.

You expect JDX to come here? I wouldn't want to either if I were him. Nothing would get done and it would turn into a gang rape bash fest. I sampled that in the short time I have been here and I believe the official reports.
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Old 11th October 2006, 05:25 AM   #8
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im sure people here will line up around the block to debate JDX if an impartial moderator were named, however JDX wont debate unless he has the ability to ban his opponent, makes it look liek hes very afraid of being beaten

just look at the CS/TS1234 "debate" thread, did that turn into a "gang rape bash fest" or did other JREFers keep their own comments out of the debate thread?
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Old 11th October 2006, 05:34 AM   #9
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From what I understand, JDX isn't really concerned about debating people from the internet. He offered an area to submit your "debunks" if you wish.

JDX and his organization are concentrating on ALPA, APA, the NTSB, the FBI and Congressmen to get answers.

The fact is that the FDR shows the aircraft too high. All scenarios were explored and cross-checked. It was not supplemented by a letter from the NTSB showing any errors as was the Mode Control Panel indications.

If AS knows how to correct Pressure Altitude to True Altitude, tell him to start there for the csv file.

The G Forces are only a supplement to cross-check the altitude data. Along with system indications, vertical speed, alternate analysis based on vertical speed, etc.
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Old 11th October 2006, 05:35 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by weedwacker View Post
AS said the aircraft needs to pull 3 G's for one full second in order to pull out of that dive. The FDR never gets above 1.7 G's.
Sigh, you don't read very well. I said it needed to pulll 3 G's for one second to pull completely out of the dive (as in, be at 0fpm descent). There is no evidence that is necessary. I said it was _possible_ for a plane to do. You claimed it would rip the wings off.

I do NOT believe that the plane hit the pentagon at 0 fpm descent, therefore I do NOT believe it pulled 3 Gs ever. My point was it was merely _possible_ and wouldn't have ripped off the plane wings. I have never said the plane MUST have pulled 3 Gs to have hit the pentagon.
I don't understand why you keep copy/pasting large sections of text, and completely misquoting me.
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Old 11th October 2006, 05:37 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by weedwacker View Post
AS said the aircraft needs to pull 3 G's for one full second in order to pull out of that dive. The FDR never gets above 1.7 G's.

I cannot understand why he would use +/- 1/8th of a second. If that is all he has to hold onto for recorded data as it being inaccurate, he has a real problem.

Please review the animation provided by the NTSB. JDX sent me this animation the other day. Headings, airspeed, altitudes, all match the csv file time stamps and real world information such as departure from Dulles.

Bottom line, AS needs to account for 3 G's (his own words) for 1 full second in order to pull out of that dive.

I have also seen JDX's challenge for debate. Here is the full quote.




I'm sure if you people can refrain from name calling, stick to the topic and debate the facts, it seems JDX welcomes you. However, in my short experience on this site that may not be possible. I haven't done anything here in terms of attacking someone and so far I have been attacked just for posting. JDX also says MarkyX (whoever that is) is pre-registered at Pilots For Truth and knows about it.

You expect JDX to come here? I wouldn't want to either if I were him. Nothing would get done and it would turn into a gang rape bash fest. I sampled that in the short time I have been here and I believe the official reports.

Pity that he bans anyone who tries to debate him - or should I say you ban them as soon as...

Three experienced pilots now - all banned as soon as they disagreed.

Go away you fraud.
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Old 11th October 2006, 05:39 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by weedwacker View Post
From what I understand, JDX isn't really concerned about debating people from the internet. He offered an area to submit your "debunks" if you wish.
well thats not a debate, and in the quotes you posted above a debate is clearly referred to

in the past JDX has demanded that rebuttals be emailed to him personally, and "if they are good" he will post them

fat chance, if they are good, he'll delete them and claimed we are ignoring his challenge, and if he has any kind of response he'll post it and ridicule it and never give anyone an opportunity to respond
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Old 11th October 2006, 05:40 AM   #13
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All pilots interpret instruments in their cockpit and cross check it with other instruments to make sure the primary instrument is telling them the truth. That is the basics of Instrument Flight.

JDX and the Pilots for Truth did exactly that when they saw the altimeter showing 480MSL at end of recording. They also tried to get the radar altimeter data through Boeing from the additional raw data .fdr file (not the csv), but Boeing refused to help due to "corporate relationships". One would think that if the additional raw data .fdr file supported gov theory, Boeing would be jumping at the bit to put their name on it. In this respect, JDX and I agree completely.
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Old 11th October 2006, 05:41 AM   #14
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How do you expect JDX to come here and debate you people when 4-6 of you are jumping on me at once? Imagine if he came here. I can't even keep up with your posts. This happened last night.

Have a good day all. This site is useless and gets nothing done. We are going to the real experts such as the NTSB to get answers. Not some net junkies.
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Old 11th October 2006, 05:49 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by ktesibios View Post
Anti-sophist, I have a question.

I'm trying to understand your point about the time correlation of the different data channels by analogy to my experience of multi-channel PCM digital audio recording systems, specifically the "modular digital multitrack" machines, i.e., ADAT or DTRS format, which record 8 channels of digital audio on videocassette.

In these systems, each analog input has its own sample/hold and A/D converter. The S/H circuits are driven by the same aperture clock, so sampling for each channel is simultaneous, and the clocking for the A/Ds is shared among all channels, so the conversion for each channel is complete pretty much simultaneously as well.

However, since the videocassette transport has only one recording channel, the data streams from each A/D are buffered and assembled into a frame structure such that they are recorded on the tape sequentially, one channel's worth of data for that sample interval after another.

In playback, the data coming off tape is demultiplexed, buffered and fed to an individual D/A converter for each channel. The sample/hold circuits at the output of each D/A are again all driven by the same aperture clock, so that the analog outputs are once again simultaneous. Since tape transports don't operate at a perfectly constant speed, buffering the off-tape data and reading it out referenced to a stable clock also provides timebase correction.

If the aperture clocks of each of the front-end S/Hs weren't simultaneous, it could still be possible to organize the data coming from each A/D into a frame and record it on the tape, but simultaneity between channels would be lost.

As far as I can tell from the description of the FDR given in the NTSB's Specialist's Factual Report of Investigation for the AA77 DFDR, the recording process is somewhat analogous to what I've just described, with the recorder portion receiving data as a serial, time-multiplexed data stream from the data acquisition system.

If I haven't strained the analogy too far, the simultaneity of data points between channels would be dependent on how the DAQ system handles sampling and quantizing inputs from the different sensors, and without knowing that information there's no way to be sure of whether data points recorded in the same subframe were sampled at the same time.

Is that more or less what you're driving at?

Also, how do you derive the +- 1/8 second figure for the uncertainty due to the encoding?
Ok, there are two major sources for error in FDR PCM data.The first is referneced by the +- 1/8 second mention, for the v.acc, due to the encoding of the PCM.

The PCM stream on the FDR has a major-frame period of 1 second and a minor frame period of 1/8 of a second. The v.acc data was sampled at 8hz, so once per minor frame. There is no way to tell when, in the minor frame, the v.acc was actually sampled. In other words, if the minor frame length was 100 words (say 2 bytes), and the major frame was 800 words (so 800 words per second), then the V.Acc could be words 1,101,201,301,401... or it could be words 99,199,299,399, etc.

This uncertainty results from not knowing the PCM encoding. Your D/A system does know the encoding PCM structure coming in, so it is able to base time on the position of a word inside the PCM structure. This, again, is based on the assumption that data put into the PCM structure at time t was also measured near time t. That is not always a safe assumption. Regardless, we don't know the PCM structure in this case, so our error for each individual data point is +/- the sample frequency of that data point.

So, the altimeter (which is sambled only at 1Hz), could have been sampled at word 1, or it could have been sampled at word 799. They are both part of the same frame, with the same timestamp.

---

Furthermore, in your situation, you sample analog components "in real time", as they are needed in the PCM stream. Digital data from the air-data-computer doesn't have the same luxury. When the PCM stream says "I am at word 117, I need the computer air speed", the Air Data Computer isn't going to drop what it's doing to send that out.

So, the digital half of a DAU, for these systems, buffers these outputs, and timestamps the measurements. So at time=18ms the ADC might say "Ok, here's my altimeter reading: 49", and then at time=47ms, the control unit says "I need altimeter data for the PCM stream", and the DAU will give it the reading it buffered that occured at 18ms.

In the military, we timestamped, individually, all buffered outputs, because the TIME the data was recorded was not the TIME it was measured. There's no way to know, without the PCM structure, if this data is present in the PCM stream. If it's not, then assigning the pcm-location as 'time' for buffered data points is incorrect.

Hopefully that made sense, when I get home tonight, I'll explain it more clearly when I have time draw a picture or two.

Last edited by Anti-sophist; 11th October 2006 at 06:00 AM.
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Old 11th October 2006, 05:51 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by weedwacker View Post
How do you expect JDX to come here and debate you people when 4-6 of you are jumping on me at once? Imagine if he came here. I can't even keep up with your posts. This happened last night.

Have a good day all. This site is useless and gets nothing done. We are going to the real experts such as the NTSB to get answers. Not some net junkies.
we are simply replying to an open thread, if you want a private debate create a thread and ask that no one else posts in it except your opponent, youd be surprised at the amount of self control we JREFers can excercise :P
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Old 11th October 2006, 05:56 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by weedwacker View Post
In this respect, JDX and I agree completely.
Heh - that line made me chuckle.
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Old 11th October 2006, 05:58 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by weedwacker View Post
How do you expect JDX to come here and debate you people when 4-6 of you are jumping on me at once? Imagine if he came here. I can't even keep up with your posts. This happened last night.

Have a good day all. This site is useless and gets nothing done. We are going to the real experts such as the NTSB to get answers. Not some net junkies.

It's unfortunate that you've put no effort to understand my points, or my debunking of JDXs claim. You repeatedly misrepresent my stance on several issues, and have taken several of my quotes out of context to prove points that factually false.

Try to understand the follow points:

!) There is no evidence the plane hit the pentagon at 0 fpm.
Therefore, the plane did not need to make a 3 G turn to hit the pentagon.

2) If the plane hit the pentagon at 0 fpm (which it didn't)
The plane would have needed a 3 G pull-up for one second.
That is not impossible, as you have claimed.

3) I am not an expert, but I know more than JDX. My analysis is more thorough, more scientific, and based on the actual hardware.

4) I fully support you guys going to the real experts to get answers. That is an excellent idea.
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Old 11th October 2006, 06:04 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by weedwacker View Post
One would think that if the additional raw data .fdr file supported gov theory, Boeing would be jumping at the bit to put their name on it.
You actually think that Boeing gives a damn about this FDR analysis? Is it because (a) they're all in on it and are running scared or (b) because the Truth movement is so huge the negative publicity must be hitting their sales? Only a thoroughly brainwashed, deluded Truther could think either of those things. Not somebody, as you claim to be, who's just innocently wandered into this.

Last edited by Shrinker; 11th October 2006 at 06:05 AM. Reason: too many commas
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Old 11th October 2006, 06:04 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by ktesibios View Post
If I haven't strained the analogy too far, the simultaneity of data points between channels would be dependent on how the DAQ system handles sampling and quantizing inputs from the different sensors, and without knowing that information there's no way to be sure of whether data points recorded in the same subframe were sampled at the same time.

Is that more or less what you're driving at?
Yes, that's part of what he's driving at, but there are other factors that could contribute to the non-simultaneity of the readings. Aircraft instruments have inherently different ways that they sense their data, and inherently different delays in showing a change. I took flying lessons 27 years ago, so I don't remember the details, but I recall that if you're trying to hold level flight, you have three sources of information: the altimeter, the vertical speed indicator, and the sound of the engine. I was taught not to use the VSI (I think that was it and not vice-versa), because the VSI has a delay, but to use the altimeter. A very experienced pilot told me that the sound of the engine is even a better, more immediate indicator, because if you start losing altitude, you gain speed, and engine RPMs go up. Of course, this applies only to the fixed-pitch props that I was flying then.

Anyway, there are more factors to the various delays besides for queueing onto the tape, and A-S's differentiation method clearly shows the end result of all those factors.

A-S, I didn't study it in detail, but a factor that could possibly explain the amplitude differences you see in some areas may be the bank angle. A banking turn would increase the airframe Gs but wouldn't show on the VSI.
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Old 11th October 2006, 06:12 AM   #21
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Excuse me, Weedwacker, I have asked you twice now, please post a link to the post at Filight info., that got you involved in all of this. That is a much easier question to answer, than all the ones you can't! Still waiting!
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Old 11th October 2006, 06:14 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Dog Town View Post
Excuse me, Weedwacker, I have asked you twice now, please post a link to the post at Filight info., that got you involved in all of this. That is a much easier question to answer, than all the ones you can't! Still waiting!
He'll say it got deleted, you watch !
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Old 11th October 2006, 06:24 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by apathoid View Post
He'll say it got deleted, you watch !
What, he's an admin there as well? I mean, what...JDX is an admin there as well? So confused by socks!
I love the whole guilt trip CTers try to lay, as they run away! Quite childlike indeed!
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Old 11th October 2006, 06:28 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by weedwacker View Post
I'm sure if you people can refrain from name calling...
Poor little weedwacker and JDX. This is what really grates me. CTists have no qualms about accusing innocent people of lying, take bribes, and otherwise hiding evidence for 9/11, and oh yeah, lets not forget mass murder, but goodness gracious, we better not say unkind things about them or they'll be offended, Please.

Grow up.
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Old 11th October 2006, 06:29 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Dog Town View Post
What, he's an admin there as well? I mean, what...JDX is an admin there as well? So confused by socks!
I love the whole guilt trip CTers try to lay, as they run away! Quite childlike indeed!
Childlike? She's a D'oh sock too?? Didnt even suspect that...Count me as confused also
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Old 11th October 2006, 06:52 AM   #26
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Quote:
Weedwacker posted in other threads
To be honest, I'd have to check all the math, but these wacky conspiracy theories are getting pretty wild. Some say that no planes hit the buildings in NY? I know crews that watched it!
...
Everyone knows American 77 hit the Pentagon. Thousands of people saw it. But, I guess this is America and they can do what they want I guess. I still need to look over that site thoroughly.
...
Hope his numbers are accurate, cause I'm ready to go over it with a fine toothed comb.
...
I'll see what I can do.
...
Still looking over the work.
...
Still researching.
...
In the meantime, I'll keep looking over his work.
...
I'm still checking on it.
...
I really have to look into this further. Thanks for all the help everyone.
I'll continue to post so observations.
...
I'm still highly skeptical of JDX's claims of 480MSL. It appears he went to Boeing and a few other companies to get some answers, but was refused. I'm also trying to work some of my channels.
...
Still researching.
Weedwacker, after all the time you've spent looking over JDX' site and math, we'd all REALLY like to see that critique you promised. It'd be a shame for you not to post it, after all the work you've done looking over his site and 'researching'. If you'd like, why don't you PM it to me?
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Old 11th October 2006, 07:08 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by weedwacker View Post
All pilots interpret instruments in their cockpit and cross check it with other instruments to make sure the primary instrument is telling them the truth. That is the basics of Instrument Flight.

JDX and the Pilots for Truth did exactly that when they saw the altimeter showing 480MSL at end of recording. They also tried to get the radar altimeter data through Boeing from the additional raw data .fdr file (not the csv), but Boeing refused to help due to "corporate relationships". One would think that if the additional raw data .fdr file supported gov theory, Boeing would be jumping at the bit to put their name on it. In this respect, JDX and I agree completely.
You're kidding, right?
I mean, you are kidding, aren't you?
You're joshing around, yes?
Pulling our legs?
Yanking our chain?

You think that people at Boeing should feel the need to provide evidence that a plane they manufactured hit the Pentagon?
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Old 11th October 2006, 07:11 AM   #28
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What forum is this "debunking area" to be on? JDX's or LC's? Is he willing to allow me to register? If so, does that mean he no longer wants me dead?

Weedwacker, can you ask him for me?
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Old 11th October 2006, 08:25 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by weedwacker View Post
How do you expect JDX to come here and debate you people when 4-6 of you are jumping on me at once? Imagine if he came here. I can't even keep up with your posts. This happened last night.
...yet you would move the debate to JDX's forum? A mad admin renowned for his ban-happy nature and propensity to edit others' posts left and right? Hypocrite.

Look, no debate is necessary. JDX released his results. They're wrong.

If he doesn't want to get into a heated conversation, he doesn't have to. All he has to do is publish a correction.

Scientists don't debate, except in rare cases where intuition is more important than theory and results (see Einstein-Bohr). They publish and critique each other. No dog-piling is needed, if JDX has any actual interest in accuracy.

Originally Posted by weedwacker View Post
Have a good day all. This site is useless and gets nothing done. We are going to the real experts such as the NTSB to get answers. Not some net junkies.
...says the guy upholding JDX's results, a net junkie if ever there was one.

Go ahead, go to the NTSB. We welcome their participation. Try to learn something. And make sure you check your attitude at the door, or else you may find yourselves ignored.
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Old 11th October 2006, 08:43 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
...yet you would move the debate to JDX's forum? A mad admin renowned for his ban-happy nature and propensity to edit others' posts left and right? Hypocrite.

Look, no debate is necessary. JDX released his results. They're wrong.

If he doesn't want to get into a heated conversation, he doesn't have to. All he has to do is publish a correction.

Scientists don't debate, except in rare cases where intuition is more important than theory and results (see Einstein-Bohr). They publish and critique each other. No dog-piling is needed, if JDX has any actual interest in accuracy.


...says the guy upholding JDX's results, a net junkie if ever there was one.

Go ahead, go to the NTSB. We welcome their participation. Try to learn something. And make sure you check your attitude at the door, or else you may find yourselves ignored.

100% agreed but JohnDoe don't expect results by just calling and claiming to be an expert. Get a real independent expert analysis and forward it to the proper authorities. Why would you expect them to even take the time to look at your claims otherwise. Being a pilot does not qualify you as an expert in analysis of FDR's.


In this particular analysis it might be good to make sure you check your altitude at the door
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Old 11th October 2006, 09:47 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by weedwacker View Post
Have a good day all. This site is useless and gets nothing done is full of people who don't agree with me.
There, fixed it.
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Old 11th October 2006, 09:53 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
I guess this answered my question.
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Old 11th October 2006, 01:06 PM   #33
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Back by pop demand, look at Russell go!

Quote:
So even if they are limited to just the thread we can't allow 2 JREFer's temporary access to have the discussion here?

I would post Dylan's own words on his thoughts about JREFer's here but as you know that thread and his words were disappeared. He seemed to think it was OK. Is there a way to find his thoughts on that and post them?

I feel it is a great idea to have some dialogue with another point of view.

The truth can only benefit from this.....right?

Maybe we should use democracy and have a poll to see if the people here are open to seeing both sides of this discussion. If we end up collectively being afraid of a different opinion then fine we can withdraw into our own theories and ideas without exposing ourselves to new information.

It might be just me but I feel truth has nothing to fear.
The hell with going there, come back WW, come back! This came out of the FDR discussion, and my has it grown. Now he is chasing Do'h around from thread to thread, to get his points heard. What a bunch of open minds. I would like to see a poll on this over there, though.
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Old 11th October 2006, 01:23 PM   #34
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ok, usually, though they are often completely wrong, I can understand the theories of the CTists. Here, however, i am puzzled...stumped if you will.

JDX and his "experts" are saying that the FDR data does not support a crash of AA77 into the pentagon, but rather a "Fly Over". Ok, so there point is what?

1. That the NTSB released FDR data that was "faked". Why would a government agency (part of the conspiracy) release data for a plane crash they say occured, and have that data prove their own plot false?

2. That the NTSB (part of the USG, hence part of the conspiracy) is coming clean, releasing data that proves there was no plane crash?

I guess, my point is, why would they (the NTSB, and hence the USG) release FDR data faked, or real, that would prove no crash occured, if these people were in on the "inside job" to start.

Seems to me, the thing to do, if I were an evil mastermind, would be to (a) fake data that proves a crash, or (b) not release the data at all.

WHY WOULD THE BIG BAD USG, THE GUYS WHO THE CTERS SAY CARRIED OUT 9/11 RELEASE DATA TO PROVE THEMSELVES WRONG??????

OMG I am gonna lose it with this insane crap.

TAM
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Old 11th October 2006, 01:36 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
ok, usually, though they are often completely wrong, I can understand the theories of the CTists. Here, however, i am puzzled...stumped if you will.

JDX and his "experts" are saying that the FDR data does not support a crash of AA77 into the pentagon, but rather a "Fly Over". Ok, so there point is what?

1. That the NTSB released FDR data that was "faked". Why would a government agency (part of the conspiracy) release data for a plane crash they say occured, and have that data prove their own plot false?

2. That the NTSB (part of the USG, hence part of the conspiracy) is coming clean, releasing data that proves there was no plane crash?

I guess, my point is, why would they (the NTSB, and hence the USG) release FDR data faked, or real, that would prove no crash occured, if these people were in on the "inside job" to start.

Seems to me, the thing to do, if I were an evil mastermind, would be to (a) fake data that proves a crash, or (b) not release the data at all.

WHY WOULD THE BIG BAD USG, THE GUYS WHO THE CTERS SAY CARRIED OUT 9/11 RELEASE DATA TO PROVE THEMSELVES WRONG??????

OMG I am gonna lose it with this insane crap.

TAM

They didn't realize that great minds from the LC board would recognize it was wrong of course or they weren't smart enough to know it was wrong. They should have consulted John Doe while they were faking the data.



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Is Weedwacker proof that you can clone a full grown human being from another one?
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Old 11th October 2006, 01:38 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Is Weedwacker proof that you can clone a full grown human being from another one?
Full grown? As in adult?

No, not at all.



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Old 11th October 2006, 06:14 PM   #37
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I'm curious: at what point did

"I'm still highly skeptical of JDX's claims of 480MSL. It appears he went to Boeing and a few other companies to get some answers, but was refused."

turn into:

We are going to the real experts such as the NTSB to get answers.

?
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Old 11th October 2006, 06:20 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by bignickel View Post
I'm curious: at what point did

"I'm still highly skeptical of JDX's claims of 480MSL. It appears he went to Boeing and a few other companies to get some answers, but was refused."

turn into:

We are going to the real experts such as the NTSB to get answers.

?
Yeah, and where is the link to the flightinfo post?
I'm guessing it's when he looked in the mirror!

Last edited by Dog Town; 11th October 2006 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 11th October 2006, 09:50 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
Seems to me, the thing to do, if I were an evil mastermind, would be to (a) fake data that proves a crash, or (b) not release the data at all.

WHY WOULD THE BIG BAD USG, THE GUYS WHO THE CTERS SAY CARRIED OUT 9/11 RELEASE DATA TO PROVE THEMSELVES WRONG??????

OMG I am gonna lose it with this insane crap.

TAM
It's really quite simple.

A whistleblower leaked the data before the NTSB could finish faking it. It wasn't supposed to be released until it was completed.
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Old 11th October 2006, 11:53 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by jsiv View Post
It's really quite simple.

A whistleblower leaked the data before the NTSB could finish faking it. It wasn't supposed to be released until it was completed.
They couldn't compile a fake FDR data file in FIVE FRIGGING YEARS? Give me a very, very large break. And, just because I like the smell of irony...

They're using FLIGHT 77'S FDR data, recovered FROM THE WRECKAGE OF THE PENTAGON, to prove that AA77 DID NOT HIT THE PENTAGON.

JDX, if you're reading this, read that last paragraph very slowly. Surely you realize how utterly stupid that makes you look. And don't lecture me about chain of custody and all that nonsense. You're grasping at holograms of straws now, not even REAL straws.
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