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Old 19th November 2006, 03:13 PM   #1
joemailman
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ObL's Reasons and Intentions

Can anyone remember and describe ObL's stated reasons and intentions for being responsible for the WTC attacks? I seem to remember Lebanon and the disasters there as a stated reason. Could there be reasons other than those suggested by our very boneheaded and utterly incompetent
prez?
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Old 19th November 2006, 03:28 PM   #2
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Western presence in Saudi Arabia. And the usual Israel must die hoohah.

The reasons stated by Bush that have been stated well before him are not entirely baseless.
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Old 19th November 2006, 03:29 PM   #3
Oliver
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Originally Posted by joemailman View Post
Can anyone remember and describe ObL's stated reasons and intentions for being responsible for the WTC attacks? I seem to remember Lebanon and the disasters there as a stated reason. Could there be reasons other than those suggested by our very boneheaded and utterly incompetent
prez?
Watch the confessions of these guys:
http://video.google.de/videoplay?doc...usual+suspects
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Old 19th November 2006, 03:36 PM   #4
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"And as I was looking at those towers that were destroyed in Lebanon, it occurred to me that we have to punish the transgressor with the same -- and that we had to destroy the towers in America so that they taste what we tasted, and they stop killing our women and children." Osama Bin Laden
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Old 19th November 2006, 03:48 PM   #5
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"I was ordered to fight the people until they say there is no God but Allah and his prophet, Muhammad."
- Osama Bin Laden

This is a man who is not going to bind himself to specific objectives. When he gets what he wants today, he (and/or whoever succeeds him) will keep going until we are all slaves or dead.
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Old 19th November 2006, 03:51 PM   #6
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Generically speaking, OBL appears to be most pissed at the US Presence in Saudi Arabia (home of the two holy mosques etc...).

When Iraq threatened Saudi in 1990 OBL offered the use of his Mujahedeen fighters to protect the holy land. The Saudis (remember the royal family were good friends with the Bin Ladens) instead chose to allow the US to protect them (Operation Desert Shield). OBL Wasn't too impressed, and his war against the west began soon after.

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Old 19th November 2006, 04:15 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by joemailman View Post
Can anyone remember and describe ObL's stated reasons and intentions for being responsible for the WTC attacks? I seem to remember Lebanon and the disasters there as a stated reason. Could there be reasons other than those suggested by our very boneheaded and utterly incompetent prez?
This was reported to be a message from him to Mullah Omar, recovered from a hard drive in Afghanistan. It's dated October 3rd 2001, so obviously no mention of Iraq, but it's a decent summary of what he's hoping to achieve, I think.

Quote:
To: Mullah Omar
From: Osama bin Laden
Folder: Deleted File (Recovered)
Date: October 3, 2001


Highly esteemed Leader of the Faithful,
Mullah Muhammad Omar, Mujahid,
May God preserve him …

1- We treasure your message, which confirms your generous, heroic position in defending Islam and in standing up to the symbols of infidelity of this time.

2- I would like to emphasize the major impact of your statements on the Islamic world. Nothing harms America more than receiving your strong response to its positions and statements. Thus it is very important that the Emirate respond to every threat or demand from America … with demands that America put an end to its support of Israel, and that U.S. forces withdraw from Saudi Arabia. Such responses nullify the effect of the American media on people's morale.

Newspapers mentioned that a recent survey showed that seven out of every ten Americans suffer psychological problems following the attacks on New York and Washington.

Although you have already made strong declarations, we ask you to increase them to equal the opponent's media campaign in quantity and force.

Their threat to invade Afghanistan should be countered by a threat on your part that America will not be able to dream of security until Muslims experience it as reality in Palestine and Afghanistan.

3- Keep in mind that America is currently facing two contradictory problems:

a) If it refrains from responding to jihad operations, its prestige will collapse, thus forcing it to withdraw its troops abroad and restrict itself to U.S. internal affairs. This will transform it from a major power to a third-rate power, similar to Russia.

b) On the other hand, a campaign against Afghanistan will impose great long-term economic burdens, leading to further economic collapse, which will force America, God willing, to resort to the former Soviet Union's only option: withdrawal from Afghanistan, disintegration, and contraction.

Thus our plan in the face of this campaign should focus on the following:

—Serving a blow to the American economy, which will lead to:

a) Further weakening of the American economy

b) Shaking the confidence in the American economy. This will lead investors to refrain from investing in America or participating in American companies, thus accelerating the fall of the American economy …

—Conduct a media campaign to fight the enemy's publicity. The campaign should focus on the following important points:

a) Attempt to cause a rift between the American people and their government, by demonstrating the following to the Americans:

—That the U.S. government will lead them into further losses of money and lives.

—That the government is sacrificing the people to serve the interests of the rich, particularly the Jews.

—That the government is leading them to the war front to protect Israel and its security.

—America should withdraw from the current battle between Muslims and Jews.

This plan aims to create pressure from the American people on their government to stop its campaign against Afghanistan, on the grounds that the campaign will cause major losses to the American people.

—Imply that the campaign against Afghanistan will be responded to with revenge blows against America.

I believe that we can issue, with your permission, a number of speeches that we expect will have the greatest impact, God willing, on the American, Pakistani, Arab, and Muslim people.

Finally, I would like to emphasize how much we appreciate the fact that you are our Emir. I would like to express our great appreciation of your historical stands in the service of Islam and in the defense of the Prophet's tradition. We ask God to accept and reward such stands.

We ask God to grant the Muslim Afghani nation, under your leadership, victory over the American infidels, just as He singled this nation out with the honor of defeating the Communist infidels.

We ask God to lead you to the good of both this life and the afterlife.

Peace upon you and God's mercy and blessings.

Your brother,
Osama Bin Muhammad Bin Laden
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200409/cullison
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Old 19th November 2006, 04:16 PM   #8
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Text of his first fatwa "Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places" in 1996.

Text of his second fatwa, in 1998.

Quote:
On 22 December 1998 Usama Bin Laden was asked by Time magazine whether he was responsible for the August 1998 [Embassy] attacks. He replied:

"The International Islamic Jihad Front for the jihad against the US and Israel has, by the grace of God, issued a crystal clear fatwa calling on the Islamic nation to carry on Jihad aimed at liberating the holy sites. The nation of Mohammed has responded to this appeal. If instigation for jihad against the Jews and the Americans . . . is considered to be a crime, then let history be a witness that I am a criminal. Our job is to instigate and, by the grace of God, we did that, and certain people responded to this instigation."

He was asked if he knew the attackers:

". . . those who risked their lives to earn the pleasure of God are real men. They managed to rid the Islamic nation of disgrace. We hold them in the highest esteem."

And what the US could expect of him:

". . . any thief or criminal who enters another country to steal should expect to be exposed to murder at any time . . . The US knows that I have attacked it, by the grace of God, for more than ten years now . . . God knows that we have been pleased by the killing of American soldiers [in Somalia in 1993]. This was achieved by the grace of God and the efforts of the mujahideen . . . Hostility towards America is a religious duty and we hope to be rewarded for it by God. I am confident that Muslims will be able to end the legend of the so-called superpower that is America." http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page3682.asp
Transcription and video of his November, 2004 speech.
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Old 19th November 2006, 04:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
23 February 1998


Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin
Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt
Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group
Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Fazlur Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh



Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.


The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since Allah made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.


No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:

First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.


Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.


So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.


Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."


On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:


The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."


This is in addition to the words of Almighty Allah: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"


We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.


Almighty Allah said: "O ye who believe, give your response to Allah and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that Allah cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."


Almighty Allah also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things."


Almighty Allah also says: "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."
thats all the reason they need
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Old 19th November 2006, 04:29 PM   #10
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Could it be that what he said in those tapes was not true and that his reasons and intentions could be far different?
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Old 19th November 2006, 04:32 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by joemailman View Post
Could it be that what he said in those tapes was not true and that his reasons and intentions could be far different?
I guess if he deeply believes in religion and god (from my
experiences with muslim people), he says the truth. And
i know that america is not very popular down there - for
some good reasons. Especially since the whole world is
pissed about the Iraq/WMD war.
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Old 19th November 2006, 04:46 PM   #12
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Is it possible that the economic future of not only his family but the nation of Saudi Arabia lies in the possibility of limited Saudi oil reserves?
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Old 19th November 2006, 04:50 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by joemailman View Post
Is it possible that the economic future of not only his family but the nation of Saudi Arabia lies in the possibility of limited Saudi oil reserves?
Huh? Could you specify this statement? I ´m not able
to connect OBL to oil from what i know.
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Old 19th November 2006, 04:52 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by joemailman View Post
Could it be that what he said in those tapes was not true and that his reasons and intentions could be far different?
Could it be that Osama was a space alien? Yes, but I'll wait to see the evidence before I make a decision. Can you provide evidence that proves his motives are different from his stated, published ones?
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Old 19th November 2006, 04:52 PM   #15
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Quote:
Is it possible that the economic future of not only his family but the nation of Saudi Arabia lies in the possibility of limited Saudi oil reserves?
Possible but highly unlikely. The Bin Laden family fortune was built in the construction industry, not petroleum. The family's business, which Osama has no financial stake in anymore, is now involved in construction, engineering, manufacturing, and telecommunications. Not petroleum. At least not as a primary industry. It's also important to note that however insane and coldblooded Osama Bin Laden is there is little doubt among those who knew him, know him, have met him, or study him that he is sincerely devoted to his beliefs and what he considers his obligation to wage jihad on the west. He inspires such loyalty from his followers because he lives with them in poor conditions, compared to his upbringing, and puts whatever money he gains from fundraising and criminal enterprises back into Al Qaeda. Even if he did care about money, his family are already billionaires. Why become an internationally wanted fugitive just to attempt to gain money that you don't need or want?

Last edited by yodaluver28; 19th November 2006 at 05:01 PM. Reason: Add
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Old 19th November 2006, 04:54 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by joemailman View Post
Could it be that what he said in those tapes was not true and that his reasons and intentions could be far different?
His statements and actions have been consistent through the years, except for the time immediately after 9/11 when he denied involvement in the attacks, as he was running for his life. If you have contradictory evidence, please present it. We don't tend to indulge in idle speculation about these things.
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Old 19th November 2006, 04:57 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by joemailman View Post
Could it be that what he said in those tapes was not true and that his reasons and intentions could be far different?
Nope.
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Old 19th November 2006, 05:03 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by joemailman View Post
Is it possible that the economic future of not only his family but the nation of Saudi Arabia lies in the possibility of limited Saudi oil reserves?
family? no, his family is in construction, not oil

saudi arabia? perhaps, but i doubt this has any bearing on OBLs fatwa

OBL has been disowned from his family and exiled from saudi arabia, the only siginificance SA holds is as a holy land, i doubt he considers the economic future of the petrolem market vital to the continued holiness of mecca and medina
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Old 19th November 2006, 05:05 PM   #19
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What drives and motivates UBL? Three things.

He believes Saudi Arabia has sold out to the US by allowing US forces to strike at Iraq from Saudi Arabia.
He views the US support of Israel as unjust
He believes he fights not against the US but for Saudi Arabia.

Here is some of the rhetoric from him before Bush even came to office, this is not a war against Bush or the present US administration,it is, in his eyes a war to liberate Saudi Arabia from western influences.

1995
"The urgent thing was communism, but the next target was America... This is an open war up to the end, until victory."

1996
"What happened in Riyadh and [Dhahran] when 24 Americans were killed in
two bombings is clear evidence of the huge anger of Saudi people against America. The Saudis now know their real enemy is America."

1997
"We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation."
"For this and other acts of aggression and injustice, we have declared jihad against the US, because in our religion it is our duty to make jihad so that God's word is the one exalted to the heights and so that we drive the Americans away from all Muslim countries.As for what you asked whether jihad is directed against US soldiers, the civilians in the land of the Two Holy Places (Saudi Arabia, Mecca and Medina) or against the civilians in America, we have focused our declaration on striking at the soldiers in the country of The Two Holy Places."

1998
"We--with God's help--call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson"

"All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah
On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims"

"The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...who/edicts.html

I think his intentions and motivations were made abundantly clear and had been made clear for many years before 911.


Last edited by stateofgrace; 19th November 2006 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 19th November 2006, 07:41 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
This was reported to be a message from him to Mullah Omar, recovered from a hard drive in Afghanistan. It's dated October 3rd 2001, so obviously no mention of Iraq, but it's a decent summary of what he's hoping to achieve, I think.
ObL is a bit overestimating the Afghan war's role in the collapse of the Soviet Union. Seems like he thinks it was the only cause of it.
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Old 19th November 2006, 07:58 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
ObL is a bit overestimating the Afghan war's role in the collapse of the Soviet Union. Seems like he thinks it was the only cause of it.
Well, he seems to think that his movement is going to have the whole world converted by the sword to Islam. I guess it's good to remind ourselves, when dealing with crazy CTs, what real insanity is.
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Old 19th November 2006, 08:09 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Well, he seems to think that his movement is going to have the whole world converted by the sword to Islam. I guess it's good to remind ourselves, when dealing with crazy CTs, what real insanity is.
Amen brutha.

Kinda puts it into perspective what the CTs are defending by default.
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Old 19th November 2006, 10:14 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
ObL is a bit overestimating the Afghan war's role in the collapse of the Soviet Union. Seems like he thinks it was the only cause of it.

For all their sophistication, I don't think those guys really understand western society very well.

An example is Somalia. After the Battle of Mogadishu OBL was convinced all he had to do was kill a handful of soldiers and the US would turn tail from anywhere. Of course he was wrong.

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Old 19th November 2006, 10:18 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
For all their sophistication, I don't think those guys really understand western society very well.

An example is Somalia. After the Battle of Mogadishu OBL was convinced all he had to do was kill a handful of soldiers and the US would turn tail from anywhere. Of course he was wrong.

-Gumboot
I don´t even think they care much about western society,
that´s why the western world knows so less about them, too.
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Old 19th November 2006, 10:18 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Well, he seems to think that his movement is going to have the whole world converted by the sword to Islam. I guess it's good to remind ourselves, when dealing with crazy CTs, what real insanity is.
i think another thing to realize is he may think the US has the opposite goal, to destroy islam, in the letter i posted he referred to the forces in iraq (desert storm) as a crusader-Zionist alliance, maybe hes just using the crusades to instill fear and hatred of the west, or maybe he actually believes the US presense in the middle east is a modern-day crusade to convert the world to christianity

who knows, when religion gets involed, reason goes for a walk
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Old 20th November 2006, 03:18 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by joemailman View Post
Could it be that what he said in those tapes was not true and that his reasons and intentions could be far different?
I don't know where you from, but I guess you are talking about the BBC documentary about the Belgium Al-Qaida spy. The spy talked about a captured Al-Qaida leader who gave false information about WMD and Iraq and that Al-Qaida deliberatly gives out false information.
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Old 20th November 2006, 04:36 AM   #27
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Maybe because OBL claims to be a devout Muslim, and according to the tennets of his religion Dar-al-Harb must become Dar-al-Islam?
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Old 20th November 2006, 04:45 AM   #28
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Osama's problem is that he's megarich and has done nothing to deserve it.

If you are megarich the only thing you can do with your money is buy some lasting fame. The type of fame you want is decided by your pre-existing morals.

So Bill Gates and Bono have decided to trade some money for curing disease and poverty throughout the world so that people will remember them as decent fellows with some sort of social conscience.

Osama thinks that hating Americans could get you a bit of fame and it does play well in some parts of the world. He gets the fame and he doesn't have to compete with Bono.


So its just dependent on the moral character of Osama bin Laden vs. various philantrophists, he hates Americans, other rich guys think saving the planet is something people would like.
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Old 20th November 2006, 06:44 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by joemailman View Post
Could it be that what he said in those tapes was not true and that his reasons and intentions could be far different?
Not according to Michael Scheuer, the former head of the CIA bin Laden unit and author of Imperial Hubris (and I believe him).

I also take these words from #2 Zawahiri at face value:
Quote:
We thank God for appeasing us with the dilemna in Iraq after Afghanistan.
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Old 20th November 2006, 07:02 AM   #30
aggle-rithm
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Originally Posted by MaxHardcore View Post
Osama's problem is that he's megarich and has done nothing to deserve it.

If you are megarich the only thing you can do with your money is buy some lasting fame. The type of fame you want is decided by your pre-existing morals.

So Bill Gates and Bono have decided to trade some money for curing disease and poverty throughout the world so that people will remember them as decent fellows with some sort of social conscience.

Osama thinks that hating Americans could get you a bit of fame and it does play well in some parts of the world. He gets the fame and he doesn't have to compete with Bono.


So its just dependent on the moral character of Osama bin Laden vs. various philantrophists, he hates Americans, other rich guys think saving the planet is something people would like.

That's why it's so important not to be enthocentric when trying to figure out OBL's motives. People in other cultures may have very different values from our own, and because of that don't necessarily follow the same sort of thought processes that most westerners would.

When trying to discern motive we tend to think: "If that were me, here's what it would take to make me do that..." but that would only work if the person thought the same way you do.
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Old 20th November 2006, 10:31 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Not according to Michael Scheuer, the former head of the CIA bin Laden unit and author of Imperial Hubris (and I believe him).

I also take these words from #2 Zawahiri at face value:
neither of those points cancel out that he is following his Koran to the letter
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