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Tags testing , forgeries , footprints , bigfoot

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Old 18th December 2006, 12:58 PM   #1
desertyeti
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Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

After several years of examining casts of purported Bigfoot footprints, buttprints, handprints, and knuckleprints, it dawned on me that the whole reason any of these are considered legitimate is that somone gave them a "thumbs-up" as being real prints. John Green (a journalist), Grover Krantz (a physical anthropologist), Jeff Meldrum (another physical anthropologist), and Jimmy Chillcut (a fingerprint specialist) are the most-quoted, and most revered figures in Bigfoot lore, yet none of them is actually a specialist in animal tracks and sign.

Hmmmmmmm says I. There are any number of animal tracking certification programs in existence, and the Shikari Tracking League is among the best. To be certified, a tracker is evaluated by a panel of expert trackers on basic field tracking abilities, identification, etc. These specialists can judge weight, age, and even gender of the animal being tracked in some cases. But what does it take to be a Bigfoot "expert?"

My long-winded monologue is gearing up for this proposal: What say someone (I'm happy to be involved if anyone's interested in actually doing this) devise a simple set of exercises using casts, photos, and/or footprint sites of real human tracks, and fake ones (made using say, a manikin's feet, or other prosthetics)? The object will be to see if any of the self-proclaimed BF "experts" can, as they claim, differentiate between prints made by real feet, and prints made by forgeries. If, as they claim, these master trackers can actually pick out real from false prints, hoorah! If not...well...

Any of the BF-supporters here want to try it and see if this is worthwhile? If not, perhaps we can design the test and start to formally request that the "experts" show us how easy it is to tell real from fake prints. Any thoughts on this?
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Old 18th December 2006, 01:24 PM   #2
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My first thought, is that these people are self proclaimed Bigfoot identification experts, not human identification, and therefore might not do as well in tests of human vs. mannequin.
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Old 18th December 2006, 01:39 PM   #3
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D'oh!
Very good point.
No doubt that would be the exact reason they'd give if they happened to be unable to tell the difference.
Back to the drawing board...
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Old 18th December 2006, 02:32 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by CynicalSkeptic View Post
My first thought, is that these people are self proclaimed Bigfoot identification experts, not human identification, and therefore might not do as well in tests of human vs. mannequin.
Therein lies the problem..

Whose to tell a Bigfoot expert they're wrong ?

One of the luxuries you enjoy when you make stuff up ...
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Old 19th December 2006, 04:15 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by CynicalSkeptic View Post
My first thought, is that these people are self proclaimed Bigfoot identification experts, not human identification, and therefore might not do as well in tests of human vs. mannequin.
On the other hand, if they can't recognise human footprints, how can they say that the tracks they are looking at aren't human ones? Surely the whole point of tracking qualifications is that you can recognise lots of different ones, and therefore would be able to say that the alleged bigfoot prints really aren't anything else. If you claim to only be able to recognise is bigfoot prints and not anything else then there is no reason to assume you would know if they are not really bears, or whatever. And there is of course the related problem that there are not any confirmed bigfoot prints or live bigfoots to compare prints with, which means that any prints can only be identified by what they are [n]not[/i]. If the person trying to identify them can't recognise any of the things they are not, then they are talking utter cow poo if they claim they know what they are.

I would also suggest that human vs. mannequin wouldn't be the best test. From the little I have read it seems that the fakes, either confirmed or alleged, are often designed specifically to fake prints, although there have been many cruder ones as well. A test of someone's identification skill would have to include not only human mannequins, but also prints from feet designed to fake human feet as accurately as possible.
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Old 19th December 2006, 08:06 AM   #6
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Perhaps tracks from a live bear and a taxidermy mount?
And real human feet vs. say...prints made by casts of real human feet.
Reflecting on it, the point would be to see if these "trackers" can actually recognize the work of an animate foot, as they claim to do.
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Old 19th December 2006, 10:40 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by desertyeti View Post
Perhaps tracks from a live bear and a taxidermy mount?
And real human feet vs. say...prints made by casts of real human feet.
Reflecting on it, the point would be to see if these "trackers" can actually recognize the work of an animate foot, as they claim to do.
You really have me thinking about this..

If these experts are claiming we can be reasonably certain Bigfoot exists, based
largely on these prints, then they should be willing to take part in a test of their abilities.

I would contribute to a fund, that would award a prize to a Bigfoot expert who could distinguish ( greater than chance guessing would allow ) between
real human footprints and and those made by a fake human foot.

I have a couple of candidates in mind..

It would be sort of like the Randi Challenge..

The ' tracker ' would have to agree to the protocal , beforehand ...
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Old 19th December 2006, 10:48 AM   #8
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Sounds reasonable. I'm thinking about 10-20 examples (maybe 5 each of isolated casts and photos of trackways, photos of individual prints, and photos of casts). Using simple grading scales: <60% correct = fail, 75% is average, and >90% is excellent, we could offer some sort of prize or award (a brand new digital trail cam or something).

The exam can be administered any time, with adequate consideration of protocol. Also, a time limit, say one week. I wonder if we could get anyone to take the exam?
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Old 19th December 2006, 10:57 AM   #9
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Do you think the people who wanted to fly you to the PNW to look at the Skookum cast, would be willing to use the same money to fly a Bigfoot expert to your area, to take the " Footprint Challenge " ?
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Old 19th December 2006, 11:00 AM   #10
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Ha!
I won't hold my breath! But, it's worth a shot...
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Old 19th December 2006, 11:48 AM   #11
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Surely any tracker worth their salt would be able to track any animal. I know the Bushman of the Kalahari can tell wheter an animal is wounded, by itself, etc, by looking at tracks and knowing how animals behave

I'd love to see what a Bushman with their thousands of years of passing their skill's on from on generation to another, would make of the "foot prints" of bigfoot
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Old 19th December 2006, 12:03 PM   #12
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simon dalton brings up a good point.

But why send for a Bushman? Anybody who's spent much time in the out-of-doors will be able to read sign (as we say in Wyoming) as plain and unique as that.

Bigfoot is supposed to be a pretty large feller, isn't he? At least his feet? How and the hell could anybody cut Bigfoot's trail and not follow it? Who would be so sorry a tracker that he couldn't stay on that beastie's trail -- surely not a hard trail to follow -- until he caught up with it? Who would ever give up?

Man, I am sooooo tired of being patronised like some kinda greenhorn by these Bigfeeters.
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Old 19th December 2006, 12:12 PM   #13
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Wyoming, eh Sackett?
Me too, until about 5 years ago.
Anyone who's spent any time hunting, fishing, or just hiking around out there would probably be able to spot a real vs. a fake trackway in my opinion and they'd surely be able to track the huge bastard and bring in some good evidence (photos, scat, or a dead one). And I agree with you about the patronizing attitude the BFers have towards anyone who asks them about their experience and qualifications. Funny how they claim that they're picked on by everyone else when they're the secretive, hostile ones!
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Old 19th December 2006, 01:51 PM   #14
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Speaking of Wyoming, why don't we hear more Bigfoot reports from The Equality State? Hell's afire, a big ugly stinking ape with size 18 feet would attract attention even in Casper.

Well...maybe not on payday night at the Lay Back and Howl Saloon, but you know what I mean.
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Old 19th December 2006, 02:13 PM   #15
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Why do they need to be able to read sign? They never follow bigfoot until at least a week has passed, even if they were right next to him.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 19th December 2006, 02:19 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Why do they need to be able to read sign? They never follow bigfoot until at least a week has passed, even if they were right next to him.
Well, maybe they had a pie in the oven. Jeeze, be a little reasonable here, can'tcha?
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Old 19th December 2006, 02:45 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
....I would contribute to a fund, that would award a prize to a Bigfoot expert who could distinguish ( greater than chance guessing would allow ) between
real human footprints and and those made by a fake human foot.
How about contributing to a fund to hunt down a sasquatch rather than an opportunity to challenge people who are learning while they go?
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Old 19th December 2006, 02:48 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by simon dalton View Post
Surely any tracker worth their salt would be able to track any animal.
That statement illustrates your lack of understanding of the issue.

Quote:
I know the Bushman of the Kalahari can tell wheter an animal is wounded, by itself, etc, by looking at tracks and knowing how animals behave
There are no sasquatches in African savannahs.
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Old 19th December 2006, 02:51 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
...How and the hell could anybody cut Bigfoot's trail and not follow it?
I found what I believe were sasquatch prints once, and I did follow it...........for a ways; maybe 250 yards or so.

I turned around because I was afraid.

I've also found and followed bear prints here in Alaska. Big bear prints. I was even armed.

I've even tracked a wounded bear once. Never found him.

Quote:
Who would be so sorry a tracker that he couldn't stay on that beastie's trail -- surely not a hard trail to follow -- until he caught up with it? Who would ever give up?
Me.

I'll bet you would, too.
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Old 19th December 2006, 02:57 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Speaking of Wyoming, why don't we hear more Bigfoot reports from The Equality State? .....
Maybe because it's not prime habitat and there aren't very many (if any) in that area?

Why don't you hear of caribou in Wyoming? There are mountains there called the Caribou Range.
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Old 19th December 2006, 04:54 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Huntster View Post
How about contributing to a fund to hunt down a sasquatch rather than an opportunity to challenge people who are learning while they go?
That doesn't seem logical. Why contribute to a fund to hunt down squatch when nobody seems able to hunt down a squatch?

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Old 19th December 2006, 05:02 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by RayG View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntster
How about contributing to a fund to hunt down a sasquatch rather than an opportunity to challenge people who are learning while they go?
That doesn't seem logical. Why contribute to a fund to hunt down squatch when nobody seems able to hunt down a squatch?
Because it's my position that the hunt hasn't been conducted properly, and that is partially because there isn't enough funding to do it right.
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Old 19th December 2006, 05:19 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Huntster View Post
Because it's my position that the hunt hasn't been conducted properly, and that is partially because there isn't enough funding to do it right.
But how can a hunt be conducted properly unless some of the participants are experienced/trained hunters/trackers?

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Old 19th December 2006, 05:51 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by RayG View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntster
Because it's my position that the hunt hasn't been conducted properly, and that is partially because there isn't enough funding to do it right.
But how can a hunt be conducted properly unless some of the participants are experienced/trained hunters/trackers?
Such a hunt should be conducted with people experienced in hunting/tracking, depending on tactics.
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Old 20th December 2006, 04:48 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Huntster View Post
Such a hunt should be conducted with people experienced in hunting/tracking, depending on tactics.
Exactly which tactics would involve a hunt without experienced people?
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Old 20th December 2006, 08:08 AM   #26
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So, Huntie, you found possible Squatch sign but you didn’t follow it. Afraid, you say? And yet, nobody has ever yet been attacked by a Bigfoot. What was so scary? You thought you were onto the cryptobiological find of the century, hell, the millennium, but you chickened out? A big tough guy like you, always ready to talk about his guns?

Who wounded that bear, BTW? I hope it wasn’t you, because I’m still prepared to respect you, and I don’t want to think you’re the kind of guy who’ll abandon a blood trail.

Only one percent of the Caribous are in Wyoming, but that’s a minor point.
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Old 20th December 2006, 08:26 AM   #27
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I dunno huntster, I think in order to find and track a BF, one has to be able to differentiate between false and authentic tracks and sign. It's most financially reasonable to first ascertain if any of the alleged sign is actually from a huge hominid before spending more money on nabbing one. That's what went down with the Ivory-bill. The film and photos were analyzed, expreiments with pileated woodpeckers and models of Ivory-bill dummies were undertaken, and only after the photographic evidence was given a thumbs up did the actual exploration and investigation commence. The same should follow for BF...problem is, the footage, casts, and hairs are all inconclusive so far.

by the way sackett, Casper's o.k.,
but the Buckhorn Bar in Laramie...now there's where you're most likely to find a BF!!
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Old 20th December 2006, 08:50 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by desertyeti View Post
... the Buckhorn Bar in Laramie...now there's where you're most likely to find a BF!!
Well, that's my point: How would you pick him out of the crowd?
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Old 20th December 2006, 08:54 AM   #29
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I'm guessing he'd be the healthiest looking one in the crowd! You know, all his teeth, walking a little less hunched over than the rest...
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Old 20th December 2006, 09:07 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Huntster View Post
That statement illustrates your lack of understanding of the issue.

A lack of understanding? How so? What a tracker with thousands of years of training couldn't track an 8 foot tall animal - you should read the experinces of how the bushman track animals. Most of it is deductive logic. Tracking animals is more then just foot prints. Its direction of food sources, time of year, time of the day, etc, etc.


There are no sasquatches in African savannahs.
So what. As I said any tracker should be any to track any animal. Again, an 8 foot animal that leaves size 18 foot prints shouldn't be that hard to find for any tracker.

Or is it your opinion that only a "special" traker can find bigfoot.
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Old 20th December 2006, 09:27 AM   #31
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And to add...

I don't care how well a creature knows it's enviroment... a huge creature like bigfoot would leave tracks that anyone should be able to track.

Having spent some time living amongst the Australian aborigonies you pick up some local knowledge. For example, I now know how to see if crocidiles are about if I was to go to a creek. You can spot all the signs of 8 foot long creature that can hide 98% of it's body under water.

No animal can leave no tracks (and all that entails - broken branches, droppings, etc). Even the creatures in sea track one another by the wake that they leave in the water
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Old 20th December 2006, 10:03 AM   #32
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Fact is, tracking and reading sign are just about the oldest skills on earth -- and not at all hard.

Granted that to a fresh-laid tenderfoot who's never stepped off pavement, interpreting sign can seem fanciful -- at first, until he starts using his mind, applying it to things plain to be seen by anybody. Then it quickly bcomes matter-of-fact, involuntary even, the way a literate person starts to read as soon as his eye lands on print.

So I don't think we need to mount any very specialized Squatch hunt. Just cut his trail and keep on it, fellers. Let everybody pack a pint of J. Daniels, pass 'em around often, and before long they'll see Bigfoot.
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Old 20th December 2006, 10:36 AM   #33
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8 feet tall, 700 pounds, on two feet....

Can't seem to be tracked until well after the fact, though.

Whenever they get there late, footers have no trouble tracking bigfoot all over the place.

When they are near the spot and the time of the sighting, they either can't or won't track bigfoot.

When they do supposedly track bigfoot in a timely fashion, like in the PGF incident, we get conflicting stories about whether they tracked it or not, and different versions of where bigfoot went.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 20th December 2006, 10:48 AM   #34
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Look at Bossburg...couldn't even find a crippled one that apparently strolled all over the place with impunity only a day or so earlier.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 20th December 2006, 10:54 AM   #35
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That's because there were no experts like we have today!
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Old 20th December 2006, 01:49 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Huntster View Post
There are no sasquatches in African savannahs.
How do you know that? Have you combed every square inch of the savannahs to know for a fact there are no sasquatches there? I'm willing to bet my entire net worth that there are just as many sasquatches in the African Savannahs as there are in my native Pacific Northwest.

In fact, Bigfoot-like creatures known by various names, most notably Ngoloko, Kikomba, Muhalu have been reported in the central African savannah, most notably Kenya. They even exist in the Siberean tundra under the name Chuchunaa. They are prevelant in nearly every region in the world, and yet no one has ever managed to find solid evidence of one, let alone an actual body.
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Old 20th December 2006, 03:45 PM   #37
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The reason tracking them is so difficult is because you have to deal with different sorts of tracks. When Sasquatch gets back to where he tethered his unicorn, he rides off on it. And you know those unicorns -- they're so fast that it would be pointless to try following them.
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Old 20th December 2006, 09:55 PM   #38
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The reason tracking them is so difficult is because you have to deal with different sorts of tracks. When Sasquatch gets back to where he tethered his unicorn, he rides off on it. And you know those unicorns -- they're so fast that it would be pointless to try following them.

Hilarious, I love posts like these.
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Old 21st December 2006, 08:37 AM   #39
sackett
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
...In fact, Bigfoot-like creatures known by various names, most notably Ngoloko, Kikomba, Muhalu have been reported in the central African savannah, most notably Kenya. They even exist in the Siberean tundra under the name Chuchunaa. They are prevelant in nearly every region in the world, and yet no one has ever managed to find solid evidence of one, let alone an actual body.
You left out the Himalayas and rural Ohio (where they've learned to open cans and bottles -- a lot of bottles -- and leave them lying around their campsites).

So if they can live in all those different habitats, why not in Wyoming? Don't seem fair, goddang it!
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Old 21st December 2006, 08:54 AM   #40
desertyeti
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It's funny how none of the footprints from anywhere match.
There's 3- 4- 5- and 6-toed tracks.
There's long toes, short toes, wide heels, narrow heels, cleft ball, single-ball. No living organism has that variety of foot morphology.
Yet somehow, all the BFers can confidently point out everything but the its favorite t.v. show based on this wide variety of alleged tracks...astounding.
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