ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 911 conspiracy theory , flight 93 , killtown

Reply
Old 26th December 2006, 11:34 PM   #1
Anti-sophist
Graduate Poster
 
Anti-sophist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,542
Killtown's new "smoking gun" for flight 93, debunked

I am posting this for educational purposes as it is a "new" theory and I spent some time debunking it (like 9 minutes). You may run into it.

http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/12...ned-after.html

In it he has a photo I had never seen from WTAE showing the impact area apparently without the fire damage or raging fire in the "trees" section.



His conclusion is because he cannot see the "massive damage" in the trees, that this photo must have been taken before the fires were even set. In it, we see no smoke or raging fire, so his conclusion is obviously that this chopper was the first to get there, before the fires in the forest were even set. His timeline, then, would require this photo to have been taken very soon after the alleged impact, before the fires were set, and then well before the aerials and other photos taken on the 12th and afterwards.

The original is located at this link:
http://images.ibsys.com/2001/0912/957315.jpg

You will notice the date in the URL. That sort of puts the nail in that coffin.

Just FYI.
__________________
A witty saying proves nothing. -Voltaire
Anti-sophist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2006, 11:43 PM   #2
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 37,355
Good debunking, Anti-sophist, and thanks for the heads-up.

(ETA: The link to the original pic doesn't work for me. )
__________________
"We stigmatize and send to the margins
people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid"
- Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2006, 11:51 PM   #3
babazaroni
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 787
Originally Posted by Anti-sophist View Post
The original is located at this link:
http://images.ibsys.com/2001/0912/957315.jpg

You will notice the date in the URL. That sort of puts the nail in that coffin.

Just FYI.
Nice detective work. Of course Killtown will claim the url has been altered.

Killtown tries to compare a far away shot with one taken close and more or less above the burn area and since he thinks they don't look alike, it supports his theory.

Here is the first response:

Quote:
Now THAT'S a great find! And it makes sense. I bet they burned the forest as part of the cover-up-- perhaps to keep people out of the forest until they had planted enough flight 93 appropriate stuff?

Last edited by babazaroni; 27th December 2006 at 12:32 AM. Reason: grammar
babazaroni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2006, 11:52 PM   #4
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 17,581
Were helicopters allowed up in the air on 9/12?
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 12:05 AM   #5
Bell
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 21,050
And ofcourse the Action News chopter was up and in the air over Shanksville well before the 'alleged plane crash' happened
Bell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 12:07 AM   #6
Gravy
Downsitting Citizen
 
Gravy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,072
Yeah, Killtown thinks that a news helicopter made it to the remote site before the people who were a few hundred yards away, or the first responders who were down the road.

On his website he has numerous photos of the smoking crater and forest. What a freakishly stupid person he is.
__________________
"Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard

What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links
Gravy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 12:08 AM   #7
babazaroni
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 787
From this photo:



Killtown claims a trajectory for a device that was supposed to cause fire damage at the impact zone, can be seen. However, he neglects to see that the area next to the burned forest is also burned. This lines up with the aircraft approach shown below:


Last edited by babazaroni; 27th December 2006 at 12:40 AM.
babazaroni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 11:45 AM   #8
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,843
Originally Posted by Anti-sophist View Post
I am posting this for educational purposes as it is a "new" theory and I spent some time debunking it (like 9 minutes). You may run into it.

http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/12...ned-after.html

In it he has a photo I had never seen from WTAE showing the impact area apparently without the fire damage or raging fire in the "trees" section.

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger...erial-wtae.png

His conclusion is because he cannot see the "massive damage" in the trees, that this photo must have been taken before the fires were even set. In it, we see no smoke or raging fire, so his conclusion is obviously that this chopper was the first to get there, before the fires in the forest were even set. His timeline, then, would require this photo to have been taken very soon after the alleged impact, before the fires were set, and then well before the aerials and other photos taken on the 12th and afterwards.

The original is located at this link:
http://images.ibsys.com/2001/0912/957315.jpg

You will notice the date in the URL. That sort of puts the nail in that coffin.

Just FYI.

Not quite since the 12th could simply be the date the jpeg was loaded on the website.
However in order for this helicopter to be there before any fire was set it would have to have arrived before the fire dept, which would be before the explosion and smoke. How far away from Shankesville is the home town for WTAE? Obviously they would only be in the area before the crash if this were a normal area for them to patrol. It would require them to be in the area when the false (according to killclown) aircraft flew over. This means that the pilot, the reporter, the cameraman and others employed by WTAE are all in-on-it(not that such a thing would bother KT, the more people involved the better). On 9/11/01 at about the time of the crash all aircraft were grounded thus if this was taken shortly after the crash(when fires would still be burning heavily) they would be disobeying the grounding order(very, very bad). thus it is pretty obvious that the date stamp is indeed the date the picture was taken, well after the fires were out.

Furthermore the shadow of the reporter's head illustrates that the sun would be in a position to have the fire area in shadow thus masking the blackened area.
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 11:53 AM   #9
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,843
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Were helicopters allowed up in the air on 9/12?
Good point.
It was made nation wide for all civilian aircraft at 9:25 on Sept 11.

I found two different dates for the lifting order, Sept 13 and Sept 14 BUT I seem to recall that it was lifted first for helicopters which could mean that they were in the air on Sept 12.
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 11:56 AM   #10
Alt+F4
diabolical globalist
 
Alt+F4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,997
Why doesn't Killtown just get in touch with the TV news crew and ask them when the photograph was taken?

Oh never mind, the conspiracy liars don't go beyond Google.
__________________
"My folks touched a lot of kids." - Jerry Sandusky
Alt+F4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 11:57 AM   #11
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27,967
Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
Furthermore the shadow of the reporter's head illustrates that the sun would be in a position to have the fire area in shadow thus masking the blackened area.
I agree. All I can see of the trees is a fuzzy black blob, with no details. Not surprising with the general quality of that picture.

Of course, this would have come from a video, right? Does anyone know where that video could be found? It might show a better angle on the trees as the helicopter moves around. I'm not suggesting that Killtown cherry-picked this image, but we have to allow for the possibility that Killtown cherry-picked this image
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 12:54 PM   #12
uk_dave
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 8,154
Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Why doesn't Killtown just get in touch with the TV news crew and ask them when the photograph was taken?

Oh never mind, the conspiracy liars don't go beyond Google.
Because the obvious response he would get from the TV station would be:

"Awwww how cute! So, what did santa bring you little boy?"
uk_dave is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 01:49 PM   #13
Mancman
Graduate Poster
 
Mancman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,008
How does Killtown even manage to breathe?
__________________
R.I.P Dr. Adequate
Mancman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 01:56 PM   #14
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
 
Cl1mh4224rd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,778
(edit: D'oh. I can't post links yet, but I believe citing my sources is important, so I had to mangle them slightly. Sorry. )

Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
How far away from Shankesville is the home town for WTAE?
WTAE is a local news channel in my area. They're based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

According to Google Maps it's about an 80 mile drive from Pittsburgh to Shanksville. Probably about 70 miles as the crow flies.

Beyond that, though, the man seen in that image is not a reporter; it's then-Governor of Pennsylvania, Tom Ridge1. The first time he visited the site, according to an article dated September 19th2, seems to be September 20, 2001:

Quote:
Attorney General John Ashcroft is scheduled to visit the crash site with FBI Director Robert Mueller and Gov. Tom Ridge on Thursday.
...although I may be wrong about that. Finding past articles on their site is a real pain.

--
1 According to the alternate text attached to the exact same image in a slideshow on WTAE's website: html.thepittsburghchannel.com/sh/slideshow/_auto/sh1364s13.html (Note: There's also some pictures of debris that I haven't seen before.)

2 thepittsburghchannel.com/news/966339/detail.html

Last edited by Cl1mh4224rd; 27th December 2006 at 02:10 PM.
Cl1mh4224rd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 03:07 PM   #15
uk_dave
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 8,154
Killtown throws a paddy...........

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=1876

can we all say "ahhhhhhhhh"?
uk_dave is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 05:13 PM   #16
TC329
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,453
let me take a moment while you're being all smug and conceited, and since Killtown himself is unable to defend himself, to tell you that you are incorrect when you state he claims this was taken on the 11th. He claims it was taken on the 12th and shows no damage to that area.

Don't bother shooting the messenger............
Originally Posted by Anti-sophist View Post
I am posting this for educational purposes as it is a "new" theory and I spent some time debunking it (like 9 minutes). You may run into it.

http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/12...ned-after.html

In it he has a photo I had never seen from WTAE showing the impact area apparently without the fire damage or raging fire in the "trees" section.

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger...erial-wtae.png

His conclusion is because he cannot see the "massive damage" in the trees, that this photo must have been taken before the fires were even set. In it, we see no smoke or raging fire, so his conclusion is obviously that this chopper was the first to get there, before the fires in the forest were even set. His timeline, then, would require this photo to have been taken very soon after the alleged impact, before the fires were set, and then well before the aerials and other photos taken on the 12th and afterwards.

The original is located at this link:
http://images.ibsys.com/2001/0912/957315.jpg

You will notice the date in the URL. That sort of puts the nail in that coffin.

Just FYI.
TC329 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 05:17 PM   #17
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
 
gumboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,327
Originally Posted by TC329 View Post
let me take a moment while you're being all smug and conceited, and since Killtown himself is unable to defend himself, to tell you that you are incorrect when you state he claims this was taken on the 11th. He claims it was taken on the 12th and shows no damage to that area.


Killtown is one of the worst photographic interpreters on the planet.

-Gumboot
__________________

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.


A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.
gumboot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 05:41 PM   #18
Anti-sophist
Graduate Poster
 
Anti-sophist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,542
Killtown never made the claim the photo was taken on the 11th. I made that conclusion based upon all the other evidence that that would have to be the date of the photo given Killtown's theory. If the arial shots were taken on the 12th, after the fire, and this photo was taken before the fire, the only logical time would be on the 11th... that's the only way the facts would fit his timeline. Killtown, however, blew my mind, instead, by MOVING every other piece of evidence to make the timeline fit. He now claims all those aerial photos taken on the 12th were actually taken at a later date.

As usual, Killtown's argument has now taken a turn for the bizarre. He also thinks this photo "clearly" shows no damage, and thus "clearly" was taken before the fire. I've asked Killtown, since he believes the evidence is so clear, to take this smoking gun to the media. If it's as clear as he says it is, it blows the case wide open. He has yet to do this, as far as I know.

In KT's new theory, the "bomb" went off in the field on the 11th (I guess?). At some point on the 12th, a helicopter photographed the area. The fire was then set. Some time later, aerials were taken and backdated to the 12th. He considers this theory "better".
__________________
A witty saying proves nothing. -Voltaire

Last edited by Anti-sophist; 27th December 2006 at 05:48 PM.
Anti-sophist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 09:41 PM   #19
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 25,733
Killtown is changing his story. He has not, however changed his blog.
Quote:
To me, it looks unmistakable that the forest section seen in WTAE’s chopper photo and the above video of the scene on the day of the attack looks no where as near as damaged as seen in all the other aerials taken after 9/11 which suggests the forest was further lit on fire to give the illusion that there was more damage to the scene since the perps botched the crash scene up so bad on 9/11.
This is taken from Killtown's blog (link in post 1). I am having difficulty interpreting the above to read that he claims that the photo was taken on any other day other than on 11 September. The bolding is in the original.


Now who is 'dumb?'
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 09:44 PM   #20
Anti-sophist
Graduate Poster
 
Anti-sophist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,542
A more up-to-date version of his "story" can be found here:
http://colboard.com/viewtopic.php?t=...=asc&start=210

He has taken a quick trip from "not claiming it was taken on 9/11" which he posted on LC and the other guy repeated here, and now is back towards the original claim of it being taken on 9/11.

The basic reasoning, of course, is the theory becomes totally ridiculous if we assume it was taken on 9/12. I explain it in more detail to KT in that thread, and I think he realizes that. However, last time I thought I had talk some sense in KT by proving that tail sections don't always survive plane crashes, he decided to claim I was wrong and the F4 video was a psyops.
__________________
A witty saying proves nothing. -Voltaire
Anti-sophist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 09:46 PM   #21
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,843
It boggles the mind..........


So if it shows the area prior to any destruction and this is photographed after the 11th then is the entire town of Shankesville in on the cover-up? Those who heard or saw anything and reported that it occured on the 11th would have to have been coerced somehow to declare that it occured on the 11th rather than afterward while knowing that the world press would be desending on their town shortly.

Kt gets deeper into the mud with every convoluted procalamtion.
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 11:22 PM   #22
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 25,645
Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
Good point.
It was made nation wide for all civilian aircraft at 9:25 on Sept 11.

I found two different dates for the lifting order, Sept 13 and Sept 14 BUT I seem to recall that it was lifted first for helicopters which could mean that they were in the air on Sept 12.
I have not caught up all the way on this tread; but;

I flew on 9/12 and 9/13 but I was military.

The police flew! I do not see why law enforcement could not use any asset and fly on 9/12.

The police followed up on my flight at an FBO when I got gas. I was flying a light aircraft.

The CAP flew blood products all over the US, since commercial flights were grounded and could not do the vital service. (Civil Air Patrol)

You would have to check up the other flights; but as I said a small police plane flew in after I gased up to make sure I was good to go and it helps I had my military flight plan etc.
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2006, 11:40 PM   #23
babazaroni
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 787
Thanks Cl1mh4224rd and welcome to the forum. Here is your post with the links fixed.

Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
(edit: D'oh. I can't post links yet, but I believe citing my sources is important, so I had to mangle them slightly. Sorry. )

Quote:
How far away from Shankesville is the home town for WTAE?
WTAE is a local news channel in my area. They're based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

According to Google Maps it's about an 80 mile drive from Pittsburgh to Shanksville. Probably about 70 miles as the crow flies.

Beyond that, though, the man seen in that image is not a reporter; it's then-Governor of Pennsylvania, Tom Ridge1. The first time he visited the site, according to an article dated September 19th2, seems to be September 20, 2001:

Quote:
Attorney General John Ashcroft is scheduled to visit the crash site with FBI Director Robert Mueller and Gov. Tom Ridge on Thursday.
...although I may be wrong about that. Finding past articles on their site is a real pain.

--
1 According to the alternate text attached to the exact same image in a slideshow on WTAE's website: http://html.thepittsburghchannel.com...sh1364s13.html (Note: There's also some pictures of debris that I haven't seen before.)

2 http://thepittsburghchannel.com/news/966339/detail.html

Last edited by babazaroni; 27th December 2006 at 11:51 PM.
babazaroni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2006, 02:14 AM   #24
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 37,355
Thanks Cl1mh4224rd for the heads-up about that being Tom Ridge.
Here's what I have just found:

http://www.post-gazette.com/headline...rashnat2p2.asp
Quote:
Day of Terror: Outside tiny Shanksville, a fourth deadly stroke

Wednesday, September 12, 2001

[...]
Yesterday, the priority of the FBI and state troopers was to protect the scene.
[...]
Gov. Tom Ridge arrived about 6:15 p.m., flying over the crash scene in a National Guard helicopter before being briefed on the ground by state police.
__________________
"We stigmatize and send to the margins
people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid"
- Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

Last edited by Orphia Nay; 28th December 2006 at 02:16 AM.
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2006, 03:54 AM   #25
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 25,733
Is there any point in continuing with this thread? Or starting any thread where Killtown has raised any issues. I think his credibility has just gone out the window. That is, if he had any to start with.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2006, 06:52 AM   #26
defaultdotxbe
Drunken Shikigami
 
defaultdotxbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 7,474
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Is there any point in continuing with this thread? Or starting any thread where Killtown has raised any issues. I think his credibility has just gone out the window. That is, if he had any to start with.
i dont think KTs credibility is capable of goign out the window, as far as im concerned it was never in the building to begin with
__________________
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -Albert Einstein
defaultdotxbe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2006, 08:33 AM   #27
Free Thinkr
Muse
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 738
I am now dumber for having considered Killtown's "theory" for the brief moment required to dismiss it as ridiculous.
Free Thinkr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2006, 12:08 PM   #28
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
 
Cl1mh4224rd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,778
Wink

Originally Posted by orphia nay View Post
Thanks Cl1mh4224rd for the heads-up about that being Tom Ridge.
Here's what I have just found:

post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912crashnat2p2.asp
Ahh, there we go. Thanks.

It's a little unclear to me, though, on which day he actually flew over the crash site; the 11th or the 12th. Either way, though, Killtown's claim makes even less sense. It implies now that it had been either 8 or 32 hours after the crash before "They" set the trees on fire. Slackers.

Last edited by Cl1mh4224rd; 28th December 2006 at 12:10 PM.
Cl1mh4224rd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2006, 12:42 PM   #29
Minadin
Master Poster
 
Minadin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 2,469
It sounds to me like it might have been at around 6pm on the 11th, when Gov. Ridge visited, based on the newspaper story. All of the other events the writer cited happened on the 11th, and stories are usually published early in the morning on the day they are dated. But, that doesn't mean that he didn't visit by helicopter on the 12th as well, so the photograph could have been taken then. Either way, it doesn't seem to matter.
Minadin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2006, 12:47 PM   #30
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27,967
Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Ahh, there we go. Thanks.

It's a little unclear to me, though, on which day he actually flew over the crash site; the 11th or the 12th. Either way, though, Killtown's claim makes even less sense. It implies now that it had been either 8 or 32 hours after the crash before "They" set the trees on fire. Slackers.
Even Killtown isn't sure:

Quote:
Now look at this WTAE photo taken from a National Guard helicotper with PA's Gov. Tom Ridge on board that was taken after 6 p.m. on what looks like 9/11. See if you can see the extent of forest damage as in the above aerial or the proceeding aerials

And in an article dated Sept. 12th, we have this:

Quote:
There were 20 FBI agents on hand yesterday, and another 30 were expected last night. The contingent of 100 state troopers was expected to swell to 150. They planned to spend last night spaced out along the crash perimeter within each other's eyesight to ward off curiosity seekers and prevent anyone from tampering with evidence.

Two curiosity seekers were arrested for trying to get through the perimeter, one of them aboard an all-terrain vehicle.

Also on hand were officials from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency, the Federal Aviation Administration and United Airlines. A team from the National Transportation Safety Board was en route.

Gov. Tom Ridge arrived about 6:15 p.m., flying over the crash scene in a National Guard helicopter before being briefed on the ground by state police.
So I'd say it was taken on the 11th, barring a more definitive statement from those involved.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2006, 09:52 PM   #31
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 37,355
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Even Killtown isn't sure:




And in an article dated Sept. 12th, we have this:



So I'd say it was taken on the 11th, barring a more definitive statement from those involved.
Er, Horatius, that was the article I posted. I found it on the net, but it is actually in Killtown's blog, I see.

But, yes, I thought it was pretty clear that it states Ridge visited after 6.15pm on the 11th, and the article went to press later that night. It was written to be read on the 12th.

I've posted at Killtown's blog, but he makes so many bad judgements that I just haven't the time or inclination to address them all. I agree with Gravy - he is freakishly stupid.
__________________
"We stigmatize and send to the margins
people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid"
- Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2006, 05:37 PM   #32
TC329
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,453
I'm sorry, can you show me what it is you debunked and how you debunked it exactly?

The only thing I seem to conclude is that it is inconclusive to determine whether or not the trees are burnt and if they aren't you proved this pic was taken before the aerial showing them burnt and after the crash.

I think a bunch of adults came together just to concur they all believe Killtown to be "freakishly stupid" while slapping each others high-5's.


I happen to believe that the forest was burnt earlier, but I haven't seen anyone prove KT wrong so for now, I keep the option in my mind that this could be an entirely staged scene created later that night.
TC329 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2006, 05:57 PM   #33
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 25,733
It is up to KT to post evidence that the offical story is not 100% correct. He has attempted to do that by posting certain photos. However he cannot make up his mind when those photos were taken. Nor do the photos show what KT says they should show.

In short KT has provided no credible evidence.

I am sure others will say more.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2006, 05:58 PM   #34
A W Smith
Philosopher
 
A W Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,032
I have witnessed the results of brush fires in forests immediately after they were extinguished and days afterward. In some fires that extinguish quickly for example an air fuel burst, the brush beneath the canopy will burn but the leaves in the canopy (if the trees are tall enough to escape the brush fire,)will remain for a day or two. Until the canopy dies off from the effects of fire on the lower tree trunks.
A W Smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2006, 06:05 PM   #35
Strider1974
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 155
TC329 - This photo must be taken in context with all the other evidence from that time. Trying to interpret details of one photo out of context is nothing but hot air.
I suspect that KT has gone down this road deliberately. By removing the context and concentrating on a single frame he makes his arguments seem more persuasive
Strider1974 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2006, 06:46 PM   #36
Arkan_Wolfshade
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,154
Originally Posted by TC329 View Post
I'm sorry, can you show me what it is you debunked and how you debunked it exactly?

The only thing I seem to conclude is that it is inconclusive to determine whether or not the trees are burnt and if they aren't you proved this pic was taken before the aerial showing them burnt and after the crash.

I think a bunch of adults came together just to concur they all believe Killtown to be "freakishly stupid" while slapping each others high-5's.


I happen to believe that the forest was burnt earlier, but I haven't seen anyone prove KT wrong so for now, I keep the option in my mind that this could be an entirely staged scene created later that night.
Have you read the KT thread from the archive?
Arkan_Wolfshade is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2006, 07:14 PM   #37
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27,967
Originally Posted by TC329 View Post
I think a bunch of adults came together just to concur they all believe Killtown to be "freakishly stupid" while slapping each others high-5's.
What you have to remember is, there's a lot of history with KT. Even if he's right about when this particular phot was taken, there's still a lot of other reasons to think he's "freakishly stupid".
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2006, 09:40 PM   #38
A W Smith
Philosopher
 
A W Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,032
all thats missing from this picture and others like it are his moms refrigerator magnets.

http://killtown.911review.org/images.../diagram_a.jpg
A W Smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2006, 10:12 PM   #39
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,843
Originally Posted by TC329 View Post
I'm sorry, can you show me what it is you debunked and how you debunked it exactly?

The only thing I seem to conclude is that it is inconclusive to determine whether or not the trees are burnt and if they aren't you proved this pic was taken before the aerial showing them burnt and after the crash.

I think a bunch of adults came together just to concur they all believe Killtown to be "freakishly stupid" while slapping each others high-5's.


I happen to believe that the forest was burnt earlier, but I haven't seen anyone prove KT wrong so for now, I keep the option in my mind that this could be an entirely staged scene created later that night.
It is thoroughly debunked in that KT reached the conclusion that this photo shows the forest unburned but with the crater already there. From there he determines that the forested area was burned sometime after the supposed crash.
The photo DOES NOT demonstrate that the forest is unburned and thus any conclusions that he arrives at that require the forest to be unburned at the time of this photo are simply not backed up by any evidence whatsoever.

He might as well have stated that this photo demonstrates that monkeys flew out of his butt. Perhaps they did but this photo bears not on such a claim.
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2007, 07:32 PM   #40
mortimer
NWO Janitor
 
mortimer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,518
Killtown's latest analysis is classic, right up there with adding mph and ft:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=1924

Originally Posted by killtown @ LCF
Looks like it's coming down "nearly 90 degs" to me:

mortimer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:14 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.