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Tags "A Song of Ice and Fire" , fantasy fiction , George R. R. Martin

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Old 10th January 2007, 09:11 PM   #1
Morrigan
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A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin

I haven't seen a thread about the greatest fantasy cycle ever, so I'll make one.
Who has read this wonderful series? Discuss. Your favourite characters (POV or non-POV), your theories (about the future, or Jon's mother, or the three heads of the dragons, whatever), your observations, whatever. I am for one very eagerly awaiting A Dance With Dragons.

I guess I can start with my own random thoughts. Arya, Daenerys, Eddard, Tyrion and Jaime are probably my favourite POV characters, with the Hound, Jaqen H'ghar and Oberyn Martell my favourite non-POV. Arya because she is probably exactly like I would be at her age in such a situation, Daenerys because of how she changes and grows so strong, Eddard because he's just so damn true, Tyrion because of his lovable with, and Jaime... also because of his lovable wit, I suppose. I also think Catelyn and Daenerys are among the most underrated characters in the series. Catelyn and Sansa are especially well-written. Goes to show that just because an aging man like Robert Jordan can't write decent female characters to save his life, doesn't mean every aging men are the same.
I am also very intrigued with Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark (*cough*), I find the mythology behind them to be fascinating and compelling. Not to mention the Great War in the Long Night against the Others, the Doom of Valyria, the tragedy of Summerhall, etc etc.
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Old 10th January 2007, 09:17 PM   #2
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Best to use spoiler tags.
I'm about halfway through the third book. I enjoyed the first one immensely, and the subsequent ones have been quite good, but I feel as though it's starting to drag a bit. He really needs to speed up the chronology somewhat and get to wherever this series is going; I really don't need to read every last detail of every damn battle in this war, especially since I get the sense that the war is a prelude to something yet to come (which may, of course, have already come, since I still have a book and a half to go).

I think Tyrion is my favorite character just because of the incisive commentary on human nature he provides. He's basically good-hearted, but not so stuck on his honor as to be counterproductive, as Ned was, he's saved the ass of virtually everyone at some point or other in the series, yet he gets no respect and everyone assumes the worst about him simply because of how he looks. Fun stuff.

Rhaegar and Lyanna are obviously Jon Snow's parents; I figured that out halfway through the first book. I haven't figured out what significance that will have when it's revealed, though.

I would also like a jump in the chronology because it would be cool to see the younger characters at the place they're going, not at every step along the way. E.g., it'll be cool when Arya is actually an accomplished rogue instead of a little girl with a sword, when Bran has mastered his abilities, etc.

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Old 10th January 2007, 09:59 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
I haven't seen a thread about the greatest fantasy cycle ever, so I'll make one.
Who has read this wonderful series? Discuss. Your favourite characters (POV or non-POV), your theories (about the future, or Jon's mother, or the three heads of the dragons, whatever)
Any speculation on the parentage of Jon is just a thaery.

Lots of threads on the topic on alt.fan.grrm, one of the most on-topic newsgroups I've ever read.
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Old 10th January 2007, 10:40 PM   #4
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I'll be short and non-spoiling:

Pros:
* Varied characters.
* Martin can write about political intrigues (which is the main reason I gave up on Jordan. He couldn't do that to save his life, and as the books went from action to political....)
* No specific danger that everyone will go up against (i.e. some kind of Sauron).
* A more blurred line between good characters and evil
* Letting us get the real viewpoints of the possibly bad guys.
* In fact, giving us a lot of points of views.
* Tyrion's got the best wit of any character in a serious fantasy book. Hell, he could fit well in the Pratchett universe with only minor modifications.
* Anyone can possibly die. Oh, I have a good idea on who probably won't for the next book, but I can only be 99% sure...

Cons:
* 4th book is weaker than the first three.
* The time scale can be a bit strange and disconserting. Sometimes one day gets several chapters, then suddenly weeks pass by in mere paragraphs, without any apparent rhyme to it.
* It can at times be too many characters to keep track of.

All in all, it's clearly amongst the better class of fantasy you'll find out there.
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Old 10th January 2007, 11:15 PM   #5
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Arya Stark, the coolest little girl there is.
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Old 11th January 2007, 12:11 AM   #6
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I >LOVE< these books, and cannot wait for the next one. I think the people at Borders are starting to get annoyed with my asking all the time to check.


Tyrion....oh, yes. one of my favorites.

I also like(d) The Hound. I was much saddened when he died.



But they are some of the best books I've run across in quite some time. A joy and apleasure to find!
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Old 11th January 2007, 02:01 AM   #7
Curnir
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Originally Posted by clarsct View Post
I >LOVE< these books, and cannot wait for the next one. I think the people at Borders are starting to get annoyed with my asking all the time to check.


Tyrion....oh, yes. one of my favorites.

I also like(d) The Hound. I was much saddened when he died.



But they are some of the best books I've run across in quite some time. A joy and apleasure to find!
well we havn't actually seen him die... we only have the word of a priest... and you can't trust priests.
But given GRRM's love of killing of primary and secoandary characters, I think it's safe to assume that the hounds is shuffled off his mortal coil.
I liked the red viper, and I was just as shocked when he died as when Eddard was beheaded.
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Old 11th January 2007, 02:53 AM   #8
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It was in the latest book. A dude shows up with his helm, and people are saying he's the hound, but he says he found it on a body.
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Old 11th January 2007, 03:56 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by clarsct View Post
It was in the latest book. A dude shows up with his helm, and people are saying he's the hound, but he says he found it on a body.
I think it's pretty obvious that the Hound is the guy living with those monks that Brienne visited. He's not the sort of guy who would leave his horse behind even when faking his own death.


And there's no certainty that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. Because of his appearance and abilities he's definitely got Stark blood in him, but he could be Eddard's, Lyanna's, or Brandon's. (Or even Benjen's, but that's a long shot given his age.) And even if he is Lyanna's, who says it has to have been Rhaegar? I don't think he's Robert's, because all of his bastards have black hair and blue eyes (which is a neat genetic trick, aren't blue eyes recessive?)

I think he's Brandon's son, which would make him the rightful heir to Winterfell before Eddard, hence Eddard's continual guilt. And for his mother, how about that Ashara Dayne chick? Eddard seems the type who would keep that quiet because he knew how much it would upset Catelyn to find out that the guy she loved was getting it on with a much hotter chick, and as a result knocked all her own children out of the succession.


I like Asha. I do hope she gets to kill her uncle. That's one of the scary things about these books--you wind up sympathizing so much with the characters that you cheer when they commit some murders of the deserving.

Like when Tyrion finally killed his father. It was a long time coming and richly deserved, and I was very happy for him. Although purely intellectually I have to say that Tywin seemed to be the smartest leader of all of them. Not a nice man, but he was effective. Apart from his blindness to what diasters his own family were.
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Old 11th January 2007, 05:13 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think it's pretty obvious that the Hound is the guy living with those monks that Brienne visited. He's not the sort of guy who would leave his horse behind even when faking his own death.


And there's no certainty that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. Because of his appearance and abilities he's definitely got Stark blood in him, but he could be Eddard's, Lyanna's, or Brandon's. (Or even Benjen's, but that's a long shot given his age.) And even if he is Lyanna's, who says it has to have been Rhaegar? I don't think he's Robert's, because all of his bastards have black hair and blue eyes (which is a neat genetic trick, aren't blue eyes recessive?)

I think he's Brandon's son, which would make him the rightful heir to Winterfell before Eddard, hence Eddard's continual guilt. And for his mother, how about that Ashara Dayne chick? Eddard seems the type who would keep that quiet because he knew how much it would upset Catelyn to find out that the guy she loved was getting it on with a much hotter chick, and as a result knocked all her own children out of the succession.

the story about the Tourney at Harenhall (sp?) seems to imply a couple of things, Like the Lyanna - Rhaegar connection and a connection between the silent wolf and Ashara.
I can't remember Eddard refering to Jon as son in his thoughts, even when he was in the dungeon he thought 'I could talk to the boy' (can't remember the actual text.. must re read).. The next stiking thing about Eddard's thoughts are the "Roses, blood everywhere. Promise me Ned! Promise me!" sections.
He promised Lyanna something, and Lyanna died in bed surrounded by roses (well that's how I remember it from the latest re read)

Ashara and the silent wolf, they seem to have hit it off at the tourney. But then Brandon was executed for threatening Prince Rhaegar, and Daddy Wolf lost his duel against fire. So the silent wolf had to step up and marry the cold fish. Even though he may have spoken words of tryst to the fair lady Ashara.
And Eddard was a man of solid honor, he even killed the borther (or uncle??) or fair Ashara.
What's a poor girl to do. her love had married another and then killed one of her close relatives, and she knew that the silent wolf wasn't going to soil his honor by leaving his wife.

As for Eddard's continual guilt. (if Lyanna+Rhaegar=True) There was a boy, who he had claimed as his own. And by doing so put a blotch on his otherwise snow white reputation. It would be so easy to tell the truth, and Eddard hates telling lies.
In fact notice what he says when Catelyn has pried into who Jon's mother is "the boy is of my blood, that is all you need to know" if Lyanna is Jon's mother it's not a lie.... maybe an Aes Sedai truth, but not a lie per se.
When Robert comes to visit, Jon is placed far away, Arya looks like a young Lyanna, and Jon looks a lot like Arya, could be that Jon looks and behaves like Lyanna and that's why he is placed out of sight.
When Robert brings up the subject of Jon, Eddard quickly dismisses the subject and moves on.
Would Robert let live a potential heir to the Iron throne, Jon a bastard child of of the oldest Prince would most likely be below Daenerys is order of succession, but far above any Storm Lord claim.

If Jon had been Brandon's son, Eddard would have aknowleged his as such.
Heck Eddard could have claimed the Iron Throne, but didn't because Robert's claim was stronger. A man of pure honor.
I don't think there is enough time for Jon to be Brandon's son, Jon being a few months older than The King of the North, Brandon would have been in prison awaiting his father's plea to the king or on his way to King's Landing to demand that Rhaegar return his sister. Maybe he stopped for a quickie... ya never know.


I think Daeny is one head of the Dragon, Jon is the second... but who is the third? The Dragon has three heads. Blood and Fire!
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Old 11th January 2007, 11:56 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Hawk one View Post
I'll be short and non-spoiling:

Pros:
* Varied characters.
* Martin can write about political intrigues (which is the main reason I gave up on Jordan. He couldn't do that to save his life, and as the books went from action to political....)
* No specific danger that everyone will go up against (i.e. some kind of Sauron).
* A more blurred line between good characters and evil
* Letting us get the real viewpoints of the possibly bad guys.
* In fact, giving us a lot of points of views.
* Tyrion's got the best wit of any character in a serious fantasy book. Hell, he could fit well in the Pratchett universe with only minor modifications.
* Anyone can possibly die. Oh, I have a good idea on who probably won't for the next book, but I can only be 99% sure...

Cons:
* 4th book is weaker than the first three.
* The time scale can be a bit strange and disconserting. Sometimes one day gets several chapters, then suddenly weeks pass by in mere paragraphs, without any apparent rhyme to it.
* It can at times be too many characters to keep track of.

All in all, it's clearly amongst the better class of fantasy you'll find out there.
I agree on pretty much all points. I'm giving him a pass on A Feast for Crows, though, because I think it's weakness is mostly due to having one book split into two. We won't know until the next one comes out, but I suspect that the pacing would have been improved by altenating in the missing POVs.
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Old 11th January 2007, 01:23 PM   #12
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I really like how altering the POV changes your feelings about the characters. I spent the first book hating Jaime sooooo much, but now I like him a lot and think almost everything he did was completely justified (I think you can guess which one thing wasn't. Ick!). Although I didn't care at all for Catelyn or Eddard. Such profoundly irritating people. People always cause so much more damage when they try to be noble and good instead of just plain selfish and wicked. And Jon's a pain the rear. Stuck up, much? Ooooh, he had it sooo hard. Puh-leeze. He lived in wealth and luxury compared to the vast majority of people there. Spoiled brat! And Cersei...she's just pathetic. Not an evil genius, just a panicky idiot with too much emotion and not enough brain. Although I do like her catty remarks and thoughts. Such a delightful bitch sometimes. She and Tyrion are a lot alike, although they'd hate having that pointed out.
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Old 11th January 2007, 01:41 PM   #13
Curnir
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Originally Posted by ZirconBlue View Post
I agree on pretty much all points. I'm giving him a pass on A Feast for Crows, though, because I think it's weakness is mostly due to having one book split into two. We won't know until the next one comes out, but I suspect that the pacing would have been improved by altenating in the missing POVs.
6 words:
Not enuff Arya and no Tyrion.
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Old 11th January 2007, 01:47 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Curnir View Post
6 words:
Not enuff Arya and no Tyrion.
If you visit his website, he's usually got an excerpt from the work in progress up. One was Tyrion for the next book.
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Old 11th January 2007, 01:57 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If you visit his website, he's usually got an excerpt from the work in progress up. One was Tyrion for the next book.
Thou shall not tempt me, I shalt await Dance of Dragons.

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Old 11th January 2007, 02:00 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Curnir View Post
Thou shall not tempt me, I shalt await Dance of Dragons.

It's up there now, under "Sample".

www.georgerrmartin.com

You know you want to find out....

Tyrion is Jon's father! Just kidding.
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Old 11th January 2007, 02:11 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
but now I like him a lot and think almost everything he did was completely justified (I think you can guess which one thing wasn't. Ick!).
Of course, if Cersei had been his twin brother, you'd have been all for it, you dirty monkey.

Anyway, he was definitely one of the best in the 4th book. He can in fact be fairly cunning, but he's been too busy over the years seeking joy in battle to refine it. But now he's learning, and he's got to learn fast...

I personally don't like Arya, actually. I mean, I enjoy her killing people, but it's just that I can't really see a 9-year old behave like she's been doing. Oh well, at least she's not being a 9-year old Anakin. *shudders at the thought*

Brienne is interesting, because she started out as a female Eddard, but unlike him, when she's confronted with the utter stupidity of doing the "noble" thing -all the fricking time-, then she seems capable of learning. Of course, she's not likely to change her entire style in a heartbeat (in fact, the changes have been small so far), but like us readers, at least she is getting the chance to see it from someone else's point of view.

Of the characters I'm most interested in that we don't get to see the direct point of view from is the Prince of Dorne. Now there is a cunning b****d who's capable of fooling everyone and their mother that he's incapable of doing anything, until he stabs you 47 times in the back (metaphorically speaking). Another one is Littlefinger, who I have a feeling will soon suddenly get too sharp for his own good...
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Old 11th January 2007, 02:15 PM   #18
Curnir
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Originally Posted by Hawk one View Post

Another one is Littlefinger, who I have a feeling will soon suddenly get too sharp for his own good...

Aye, his student will surpass him
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Old 11th January 2007, 02:17 PM   #19
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I just ordered the first two from Amazon. If they suck, I'll kill you all.
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Old 11th January 2007, 02:29 PM   #20
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MdeC: Ehh, I don't know if you'll like them... They are a bit on the wordy side, really....

Curnir:
Let's hope so. It's been OK to have her around so far, but soon it'll be time she starts to become -something-, not just one that other people toss between them.
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Old 11th January 2007, 02:37 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Hawk one View Post
Of course, if Cersei had been his twin brother, you'd have been all for it, you dirty monkey.
Naturally. That would have been hot! And at least Joffrey wouldn't have resulted.


As for Sansa

she'd better get to killin' soon to make up for being such a helpless crybaby the first four books. Her damn three year old brother has more spine. She had her one glorious chance to throw Joffrey (and probably herself) off the wall to their deaths, but she missed it. That would have been awesome. Cersei would have been sooooo pissed off. Serve her right, for Bran!
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Old 11th January 2007, 04:41 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
(I think you can guess which one thing wasn't. Ick!).
Oh, I don't know, given the descriptions of Cersei, I can see the appeal...

Damn it! I'm not reading any more spoilers. I haven't gotten to the part where the Hound dies yet.

Madalch,
Jon's parentage is a "thaery" in the same way that evolution and gravity are. Go back and reread the first book; it's completely obvious that he's Lyanna's son and that the promise Ned made to her was to keep him safe.
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Old 11th January 2007, 04:50 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by JamesDillon View Post
Best to use spoiler tags.
I'm about halfway through the third book. I enjoyed the first one immensely, and the subsequent ones have been quite good, but I feel as though it's starting to drag a bit.
I strongly disagree. A Storm of Swords is the best book of the series. It has so many wonderful, strong, OMG WTF!!! moments. Read on, you'll see exactly what I mean.

Quote:

Rhaegar and Lyanna are obviously Jon Snow's parents; I figured that out halfway through the first book. I haven't figured out what significance that will have when it's revealed, though.

Really? I didn't even notice until I saw it on the Internet. I suck. Then again I didn't notice that about Loras and Renly, and it was so damn obvious upon a re-read, haha.

About Jon's parentage, think of the significance: Jon is the last dragon. Daenerys is sterile, so if the Targaryen dynasty is to continue, then Jon is the key. Of course, that's assuming anyone wants the Targs back, and there are arguments for and against.... personally, I'm a Targ loyalist.


Quote:
I would also like a jump in the chronology because it would be cool to see the younger characters at the place they're going, not at every step along the way.
GRRM used to agree with you, and planned a five-year gap between A Storm of Sword and A Feast for Crows. But it turned out it didn't work at all, so he scrapped the idea. For the children it'd work, but not for the adults. So here's to hoping he'll find a way to accelerate the timeline without skipping ahead so fast.


Originally Posted by clarsct View Post
I also like(d) The Hound. I was much saddened when he died.

He's most likely not dead. Remember the large, lame, grave digger Brienne glimpses, with whom the dog is friendly? People have supposed he's the Hound. Also, the Brother kept saying "the Hound" is dead, but when Brienne asked if Sandor was really dead he just said "he's at peace". I don't think we've seen the last of Sandor.


Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And there's no certainty that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. Because of his appearance and abilities he's definitely got Stark blood in him, but he could be Eddard's, Lyanna's, or Brandon's. (Or even Benjen's, but that's a long shot given his age.) And even if he is Lyanna's, who says it has to have been Rhaegar? I don't think he's Robert's, because all of his bastards have black hair and blue eyes (which is a neat genetic trick, aren't blue eyes recessive?)

I think he's Brandon's son, which would make him the rightful heir to Winterfell before Eddard, hence Eddard's continual guilt. And for his mother, how about that Ashara Dayne chick? Eddard seems the type who would keep that quiet because he knew how much it would upset Catelyn to find out that the guy she loved was getting it on with a much hotter chick, and as a result knocked all her own children out of the succession.
Dude, for an allegeded skeptic, you aren't so keen on evidence here.
As others have pointed out, there is strong evidence that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. The Kingsguard being at the Tower of Joy (to guard what? Rhaegar died on the Trident and Aerys was murdered by Jaime, what was the Kingsguard doing there? Ned asks the very same question in his fever dream), Rhaegar giving the blue rose to Lyanna, Lyanna dying in a bath of blood (of what? ask yourself that), begging "promise me", Ned's promise (what did he promise? it makes sense if he has to claim Jon as his own to protect him from Robert's wrath against all the Targaryens) and his guilt, Ned refusing to tell anyone about Jon's mother (why? if he were Brandon's son, after Catelyn and Ned had been in love and together for years he would have no reason to keep the secret - it'd hurt Cat FAR more to have Ned's bastard around than knowing that some past, dead love fathered a child without her, don't you think?), Rhaegar (Targaryen, fire) and Lyanna (Stark, ice)'s child being the symbol of Ice and Fire matches Rhaegar's prophecy about the Prince Who Was Promised, all of that make sense if Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son. Nothing at all points to a Brandon Stark/Ashara Dayne union, I'm afraid.


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I like Asha. I do hope she gets to kill her uncle. That's one of the scary things about these books--you wind up sympathizing so much with the characters that you cheer when they commit some murders of the deserving.
Agreed. Hell, those books even made me sympathise somehow with the royal incest... I don't even feel all that weird about them anymore! I need help.

Originally Posted by Curnir View Post
I think Daeny is one head of the Dragon, Jon is the second... but who is the third? The Dragon has three heads. Blood and Fire!
I believe GRRM stated that the head of Dragon isn't necessarily a Targaryen, but I'm not sure. Some have speculated a baby switch with little Aegon, which is plausible since GRRM refuses to explicitly that Aegon is dead (he confirmed Rhaenis' death), but I see little evidence of that so far.


Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Although I didn't care at all for Catelyn or Eddard. Such profoundly irritating people. People always cause so much more damage when they try to be noble and good instead of just plain selfish and wicked.
I disagree. Yes, Catelyn tries to be good and noble, but she mostly tries to protect her family and her children. She's totally a mother at heart, more than an ideal noble lady. She also has her own selfish flaws, like her irrational dislike of Jon. That makes her very human, IMO.

Quote:
And Jon's a pain the rear. Stuck up, much? Ooooh, he had it sooo hard. Puh-leeze. He lived in wealth and luxury compared to the vast majority of people there. Spoiled brat!
When is he ever complaining about having it harder than others, once he's at the Wall?
Other than in the tragic instances where he loses (what he thinks is) his father, and when he (thinks he) loses his brothers, which are justified in causing grief...


Quote:
And Cersei...she's just pathetic. Not an evil genius, just a panicky idiot with too much emotion and not enough brain.
Agreed. AFFC spoilers:

In A Game of Thrones, she appears to be a cunning, ruthless queen. But in A Feast for Crows you really see how she's completely lost without her father and her brother. Perhaps it's due to the loss of her son, and her father, but I think she has indeed always been unstable.
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Old 11th January 2007, 04:50 PM   #24
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For me, the question is more like "Why -care- about the parentage until it eventually becomes important?
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Old 11th January 2007, 06:10 PM   #25
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I've been involved in the online discussion of this series for several years, but I've got to say, that it warms the cockles of my heart to see the finer details of this series, such as,
Rhaegar + Lyanna, Renley + Loras, Sansa's complete uselessness, etc.
being discussed here.


At least I hope those are the cockles.
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Old 11th January 2007, 06:21 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
When is he ever complaining about having it harder than others, once he's at the Wall?
Other than in the tragic instances where he loses (what he thinks is) his father, and when he (thinks he) loses his brothers, which are justified in causing grief...
He is in fact cocky in the beginning, complaining about how he's treated harsher by the swordmaster even if he's amongst the best with the sword. And someone has to explain to him why the others just haven't had that kind of training because they had to spend their childhood working or stealing or, if they were fighting, using their bare hands, or at best a knife. Swords are expensive, after all.

And then when he's announced steward to the Old Bear, he's like "I'm f***ing great with a sword, why the hell aren't they letting me be a ranger". Once again, it takes someone else's brains to tell him exactly why he's to serve Mormount.

There may be other occassions too, but the first incident in particular is one of a spoiled brat. THough to be fair, he doesn't -stay- a spoiled brat, but wisens up.
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Old 11th January 2007, 06:54 PM   #27
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There's no way that GRRM is going to take the obvious route and have Jon be Rhaegar and Lyanna's. He's much too devious for that. Oh, yeah, Rhaegar supposedly raped her. Robert thinks he did, anyway, but isn't that what Robert would want to hear, rather than it was a love match? Rape doesn't sound anything like the Rhaegar we've heard about from people who knew him.

Someone's mentioned little Aegon, the baby prince. Maybe the Kingsguard was at the tower to protect someone else. Maybe someone other than Lyanna had just had a baby, and she was close enough to this person to fake a pregnancy so she could pretend the kid was hers?

Which means that if Jon is the baby prince, then it was his father who was the Stark. Brandon seems a logical choice, still. He was at court for a while, wasn't he?

When someone once pressed GRRM for details on what Lyanna was up to before her death, he replied something along the lines of "Lyanna was one of the queen's ladies...but her feet weren't nailed to the floor in King's Landing."

I think there's several bluffs going on. Robert, and everybody, thinks Jon was Eddard's and a peasant's. Eddard may have thought Jon was Lyanna's by Rhaegar. But maybe he was Elia's by Brandon?


Screw skepticism, this is fiction. We're allowed to be wildly speculative. You have to admit, my theories are far more entertaining!
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Old 11th January 2007, 06:57 PM   #28
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Hawk nailed why these books rock, but I won't reveal too much of the spoiler..

They rock because the characters LEARN and CHANGE. Arya learns. Sansa leartns, eventually, and stops being such a twit(hopefully). Catelyn learns. They change, they grow.


By the gods, I hope you're right about the Hound. He has to be my favorite character, vying with Tyrion.


So, to ask the question, who has died that you were happy about? Who has died, and you can use spoilers to answer, that you just cheered for?
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Old 11th January 2007, 07:10 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by clarsct View Post
So, to ask the question, who has died that you were happy about? Who has died, and you can use spoilers to answer, that you just cheered for?
I already said some of mine.


Glad they died:
Eddard, Tywin, Catelyn (too bad it didn't stick), Beric Dondarrion (finally stuck), Lysa Arryn, Renly, Gregor Clegane (if he's dead. I think he's not quite.), and that one of the Kingsguard who tried to kill Tyrion whose name I forget, Joffrey, Robb, and Khal Drogo.


Sad they died:
Lord Commander Mormont, the nice old maester from the start of the second book, Sansa's wolf.


Hope they die:
Loras, the Queen of Thorns, Margaery, Littlefinger, Frey, Catelyn again, Cersei, that Darkstar guy (attacking a little girl, for shame!), Magister Illyrio, Melisandre, Stannis, Catelyn's brother whose name I forget, and all of Robb's onetime in-laws, Lord Tarly (for child abuse!)


Want them to win, win, win because I love them so much!
Sam Tarly, Arya, Tyrion, Podrick Payne, Daenerys, Varys, all of the Sand Snakes (especially the transvestite spy), and Strong Belwas.


I'll cry buckets if any of the last group get killed, but some of them surely will be.
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Old 11th January 2007, 07:12 PM   #30
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I loved Eddard dying. Not particularly because I disliked him (he was quite OK, although a bit too stiff) Up until that point, I was certain he was going to be a main character for the rest of the series, and then suddenly *CHOP*, and off with his head. That's when I truly realised I was reading a fantasy series that was a bit different than the rest of them.

Other than that... Joffrey. Oh joyful lords, Joffrey's death was one of the sweetest things that ever happened. Nobody deserved it as much as he did, and I was still thinking that he'd survive just to be a thorn in the arse of everyone.



ETA: I mostly agree with TM's list, though most of the people he were glad died (such as Beric Dondarrion), I was neutral about, really. They died, end of that.

Also, I actually want Sam gone. And I like the Queen of Thorns, because she's most of the reason for Cersei losing it. She helped killing Joffrey, she manipulates people into going behind the queen's back at every turn, she's everything that Cersei wished she could be.

And Strong Belwas is of course the most awesome side character.
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Old 11th January 2007, 07:39 PM   #31
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Does anyone else love Varys as much as I do? He's so cool. For the longest time he was the only person with a brain in the whole of King's Landing, and then Littlefinger showed up and thought he could play. Except he's still in the kiddie pool compared to Varys. I see Varys as looking on Littlefinger's plottings with the bemusement of a whale watching a goldfish attempt to make waves. It's just like "oh, Littlefinger's playing some more. How nice." then on to business.

I love Varys. I picture him as looking like Uncle Fester. Which is probably wrong, I always forget the physical descriptions of characters and they mutate into something else. (To me, Cersei looks like Portia di Rossi as she was in Ally McBeal. Which is probably wrong, but it stuck. Tywin looks like an evil Captain Picard, and Catelyn like a bitchy art teacher I had once. Arya looks like Ramona Quimby.)
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Old 11th January 2007, 08:57 PM   #32
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Oh, how the hell could I forget Varys?

And TM, your imagination is sick... But then again, what else is new?
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Old 11th January 2007, 10:40 PM   #33
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I don't know about most of those, but Tywin as evil Picard is absolutely perfect. There's rather a dearth of celebrities from which to pick a good Tyrion; he doesn't really look like Mini-Me.

Renly + Loras, totally. Come to think of it, Martin is just a tad homophobic in that all of the homosexuals are flower-sniffing pretty boys, mightn't one say? Of course, Loras would kick my ass for calling him that, so maybe it's ok.

I liked it when Ned died, because it was 1) totally unexpected, and 2) was necessary to swerve the series into an unpredictable and far more interesting direction.

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Old 12th January 2007, 03:45 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by JamesDillon View Post
Renly + Loras, totally. Come to think of it, Martin is just a tad homophobic in that all of the homosexuals are flower-sniffing pretty boys, mightn't one say? Of course, Loras would kick my ass for calling him that, so maybe it's ok.

I don't think so. Firstly, it's not common in mainstream fantasy books to even have gay characters. Secondly, Loras may be an idiot and a jerk, but he's not a sissy (although I'll grant you Renly sounds like he was). The flowers don't sound very masculine, but that was his heraldic device so he was stuck with it.

Then there's that guy in the Vale of Arryn, what's his name, Lyn Corbray? He doesn't sound very sissy, although since he's trusting Littlefinger he's sure to die eventually.

And what about the Red Viper? He was notoriously bisexual, and I doubt anybody would call him a sissy, even if he were the most likely to crossdress. He was too cool to live, though.

Not to forget the ladies, what's up with Cersei? Is her foray into lesbianism just an outgrowth of her radical feminist notions? She seemed to like men...but she only put outs when she wants them to do something for her.
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Old 12th January 2007, 06:58 AM   #35
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I started this series a couple of years ago based on recommendations from this board (it might have been Hawk one, but I can't recall). I couldn't get more than a chapter or two into it, but couldn't tell you why. It was well written, and in a genre, I enjoy, but it didn't grab me. Perhaps I wasn't properly in the appropriate part of my genre cycle (I go for stretches reading mysteries, then history, then sci-fi, then fantasy, etc.).

I'll have to find it and give it another shot. So thanks to all for using spoilers on this thread.

As an aside, Hawk: I am enjoying Jordan's Wheel of Time. I thought the earlier books were drivel but continued reading based on a friend's insistence. I think when he switched to politics from action he improved immensely. It's not brilliant stuff, and won't be recalled as one of the greats of all time, but is certainly worth the read. My only objection is that he's going to go at least two books over his projected length and he waits too long between publications.
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Old 12th January 2007, 07:19 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
There's no way that GRRM is going to take the obvious route and have Jon be Rhaegar and Lyanna's. He's much too devious for that.
You absolutely don't know that. Also note that most casual readers don't even know about this theory.

Quote:
Screw skepticism, this is fiction. We're allowed to be wildly speculative. You have to admit, my theories are far more entertaining!
No, honestly, they aren't. If they turned out to be true, I'd think GRRM weren't such a good writer after all. :P

Originally Posted by clarsct View Post
So, to ask the question, who has died that you were happy about? Who has died, and you can use spoilers to answer, that you just cheered for?

Joffrey, Tywin and those Bloody Mummer ********** are too obvious, but Lysa Arryn deserves an honorable mention too. I could not stand that stupid fat cow the moment I saw her still breastfeeding her six-year-old.


Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post

And what about the Red Viper? He was notoriously bisexual, and I doubt anybody would call him a sissy, even if he were the most likely to crossdress. He was too cool to live, though.
Oberyn Martell had HUGE BALLS OF STEEL. Seriously.


Quote:
Cersei in AFFC:

Not to forget the ladies, what's up with Cersei? Is her foray into lesbianism just an outgrowth of her radical feminist notions? She seemed to like men...but she only put outs when she wants them to do something for her.

She was trying to BE a man. Note how several times in the series she thinks she should have been born a man. She has delusions that she can be as strong and ruthless as her father. Anyway, with that scene, she wanted to be like Robert could be, to know how it feels to screw a woman from the man's side. Of course, she fails miserably at that, too.


Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
I couldn't get more than a chapter or two into it, but couldn't tell you why. It was well written, and in a genre, I enjoy, but it didn't grab me.
[snip]
As an aside, Hawk: I am enjoying Jordan's Wheel of Time.
Thanks for telling the entire world that you have no taste whatsoever. :P
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Old 12th January 2007, 07:47 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
Thanks for telling the entire world that you have no taste whatsoever. :P
Well, my close friends know. Why shouldn't total strangers as well?
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Old 12th January 2007, 07:54 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
I started this series a couple of years ago based on recommendations from this board (it might have been Hawk one, but I can't recall). I couldn't get more than a chapter or two into it, but couldn't tell you why. It was well written, and in a genre, I enjoy, but it didn't grab me.
It can be a little hard to get into at first. Since GRRM changes POV on each chapter, it takes awhile to get to know the characters. I think if you can get about 100 pages in or so, then that gets sorted out, and they become very addictive.
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Old 12th January 2007, 07:59 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by ZirconBlue View Post
It can be a little hard to get into at first. Since GRRM changes POV on each chapter, it takes awhile to get to know the characters. I think if you can get about 100 pages in or so, then that gets sorted out, and they become very addictive.
Thanks. I'll give it another shot in a few weeks if I can find it. Too many other things going on to do it immediately.
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Old 12th January 2007, 10:16 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
About Jon's parentage, think of the significance: Jon is the last dragon. Daenerys is sterile, so if the Targaryen dynasty is to continue, then Jon is the key. Of course, that's assuming anyone wants the Targs back, and there are arguments for and against.... personally, I'm a Targ loyalist.
Daenerys is currently sterile. I am pretty convinced that her sterility will be cured when she and Snow get it on. As for the third head of the Targayens... it has been repeatedly stated that Targayens have purple eyes. Of the surviving characters there are only three characters who have been described with purple eyes. Danaerys, Jon Snow and...

Don't read it unless you mean it!
Tyrion.

Yes. Tyrion. In the most recent book we learned that Tywin's wife was possibly raped by mad King Aegon. If so, then Tyrion is Aegon's son, a Targayen and the true heir to the throne. It explains a whole lot about Tyrion, about Tywin's abject hatred for Tywin, why he never wanted Tyrion to sit on the throne, even as regent, even though it was painfully obvious Tyrion was the only fit ruler in Tywin's house, even beyond the fact that Tyrion's birth killed Tywin's wife. Tywin hid the truth to protect his wife's honor and reputation, and also, ironically, to protect Tyrion, who would be slain as a Targayen in the Game of Thrones.

Irony alert: Jaime killed Aegon, Tyrion's dad. Now Tyrion killed Tywin, Jaime's dad.
Don't forget you heard it here first!

Oh, and don't think you've seen the last of Greger the Mountain, either! Although he is deifnitely dead, I believe Cersei's necromancer has plans for our murderous man-mountain...

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