"Molten"? Or just "red hot"?

HeyLeroy

Vegan Cannibal
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Really, other than people saying they witnessed this phenomenon, and a picture of an excavator lifting a glowing red piece of debris, is there really any evidence at all that "molten metal" was ever present in the debris? Are there any verifiable pieces of solidified slag that were identified as being from Ground Zero?
619745b125cbad071.jpg

If ever there were any present (I think not), could they possibly have cleaned all of it up?
619745b1251a32d70.jpg


Or were the items in question merely red hot?
moltensteelenclose5mt.jpg


ASSERTION #5
"An explosive other than conventional dynamite or RDX was used...a non-detonating compound such as thermite (aka thermate), which gets very hot upon initiation and can basically 'melt' steel. This can be proven by photographs of molten steel taken at Ground Zero, the temperature and duration of underground fires, and comments made by rescue workers."

PROTEC COMMENT: We have come across no evidence to support this claim.


This claim is actually a loose connection of unrelated individual assertions, therefore we must address them as such.

1. The vast majority of comments made by rescue workers, city officials or various others not involved in the actual demolition process at Ground Zero regarding the heat of underground fires or "molten anything" (steel, aluminum, tin, composites, etc.) are conjecture and have no practical value in determining what types of materials were actually burning and at what temperature. Most were simply never in a position to know, and those that were have acknowledged that they don't know for sure.

2. Photographs that we have examined purporting to show demolition equipment extracting "molten steel" from the debris at Ground Zero are inconclusive at best, and most are inaccurate as described. Extracting various hot metallic compounds or debris is one thing, but "molten steel beams" is quite another. As a fundamental point, if an excavator or grapple ever dug into a pile of molten steel heated to excess of 2000 degrees Fahrenheit it would completely lose its ability to function. At a minimum the hydraulics would immediately fail and its moving parts would bond together or seize up. The heat would then quickly transfer through the steel components of the excavator and there would be concern for its operator. The photos we have reviewed on various websites do not show any of this, and if anything, indicate that the underground fires - while very hot - were not hot enough to melt steel.

3. In an effort to further research this assertion, we spoke directly with equipment operators and site foremen who personally extracted beams and debris from Ground Zero (several of whom have requested anonymity to prevent harassment). These men worked for independent companies in separate quadrants of the site, and many were chosen due to their extensive experience with debris removal following explosive demolition events. To a man, they do not recall seeing any evidence of pre-cutting or explosive severance of beams at any point during debris removal activities.

4. The assertion that thermite played a role in the towers' collapse has been put forth by Steven Jones, a Professor at Brigham Young University. This author spoke with Professor Jones at length in February 2006, and we have corresponded via email a few times since. As he has explained it, metallurgic tests were conducted on two sections of steel beams that were saved for 9/11 memorials in the New york area. These beams apparently tested positive for "trace amounts of thermite", which led Jones to conclude that thermite was used on 9/11 by unknown parties to compromise support beams in WTC 1, 2 and 7. Professor Jones acknowledges that his investigation is still in the research phase and that questions regarding the viability of his theory remain unanswered. For example, it is unknown how thermite's destructive process could have been applied and initiated simultaneously on so many beams - in several buildings - undetected and/or under such extreme conditions. It is also unusual that no demolition personnel at any level noticed telltale signs of thermite's degenerative "fingerprint" on any beams during the eight months of debris removal. And a verifiable chain of possession needs to be established for the tested beams. Could they have been cut away from the debris pile with acetylene torches, shears, or other potentially contaminated equipment while on site? Could they have been exposed to trace amounts of thermite or other compounds while being handled, or in storage, or during the transfer processes from Ground Zero to the memorial sites? We do not know the answers, but these and may related questions should be addressed if this assertion continues to be pursued.
Source

Highlighting is mine.

Conspiracy Fantasists will surely accuse me of trying to distort this through semantics, but I'm not. I can bring a piece of spring-steel to a red-hot state with a butane pocket lighter.
 
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Many of the larger steel columns (inner core ) were cut using thermal lances
bundles of aluminium/magnesium rods in a tube. Pure oxygen was fed into the
tube and its lit using a acetylene torch. Burns at 7000 F and will cut anything
steel, concrete. Produces slag of aluminium oxide which probably accounts
for nut job Steven Jones thermite theory. Supposedly found aluminium
oxides in samples of steel from WTC which from looks of it was cut by
thermal lance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_lance
 
looks like thermal lances dont always have Al or Mg, but the basic one is just iron burned in pure oxygen

last i heard jones never found any aluminum oxide and seems to imply it was produced as a gas and blew away
 
I'm still waiting for a Twoofer to explain how much thermite it would take to create the amount of "molten steel" they claim was at GZ.

For some reason they never do the calculation.
 
I'm still waiting for a Twoofer to explain how much thermite it would take to create the amount of "molten steel" they claim was at GZ.

For some reason they never do the calculation.
and how it was still hot months later
 
Many of the larger steel columns (inner core ) were cut using thermal lances
bundles of aluminium/magnesium rods in a tube. Pure oxygen was fed into the
tube and its lit using a acetylene torch. Burns at 7000 F and will cut anything
steel, concrete. Produces slag of aluminium oxide which probably accounts
for nut job Steven Jones thermite theory. Supposedly found aluminium
oxides in samples of steel from WTC which from looks of it was cut by
thermal lance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_lance
Do you have a source for their use at the WTC? I wouldn't be surprised if thermal lances were used, but I haven't seen that referenced anywhere, nor have I seen photos that indicate their use. They obviously were not responsible for the molten metal seen in the basements.

Here's an interesting observation from William Langeweische, who was the only reporter allowed to go with the engineers into the basement and parking garage levels. From his book American Ground: unbuilding the World Trade Center:

Along the north side, where the basement structure remained strong and intact (and was ultimately preserved), the fire had been so intense in places that it consumed the tires and interiors, and had left hulks sitting on axles above hardened pools of aluminum wheels.
Those NWO technicians were busy, putting thermate on all those car wheels!
 
Do you have a source for their use at the WTC? I wouldn't be surprised if thermal lances were used, but I haven't seen that referenced anywhere, nor have I seen photos that indicate their use. They obviously were not responsible for the molten metal seen in the basements.

Here's an interesting observation from William Langeweische, who was the only reporter allowed to go with the engineers into the basement and parking garage levels. From his book American Ground: unbuilding the World Trade Center:

Those NWO technicians were busy, putting thermate on all those car wheels!

Someone had a set of photos that showed something I think was a lance; it may have been your photos when some guys refused to understand the clean up cuts were not evidence of cutter charges as charged by Dr Jones.
 
Do you have a source for their use at the WTC? I wouldn't be surprised if thermal lances were used, but I haven't seen that referenced anywhere, nor have I seen photos that indicate their use. They obviously were not responsible for the molten metal seen in the basements.

Here's an interesting observation from William Langeweische, who was the only reporter allowed to go with the engineers into the basement and parking garage levels. From his book American Ground: unbuilding the World Trade Center:

Those NWO technicians were busy, putting thermate on all those car wheels!

879045a489fccf998.jpg


Maybe it is just a torch.
 


Here is image of columns cut by what I believe was a thermal lance based
on size of column. Any of our google gurus should be able to find some
other images.
 
looks like thermal lances dont always have Al or Mg, but the basic one is just iron burned in pure oxygen

last i heard jones never found any aluminum oxide and seems to imply it was produced as a gas and blew away

Impossible thermite can not vaporize aluminum oxide, it can only melt it.
2800c the temperature at which aluminum burns is simply not hot enough.
 
Impossible thermite can not vaporize aluminum oxide, it can only melt it.
2800c the temperature at which aluminum burns is simply not hot enough.
well you know, and i know that, but you might want to come by my forums and tell stundie that, lol
 
d:\thermal.jpg

Here is image of columns cut by what I believe was a thermal lance based
on size of column. Any of our google gurus should be able to find some
other images.

Njslim, you can upload your personal space in the JREF library, then post a link to it. Look under VB IMAGE HOST at the top of the page.
 
Off topic. Is there any definitive proof that there was actually molten metal found in the rubble?
 
I'll go ya one better -- there were fires burning for a month in there -- large fires could easily build up enough heat in the center to melt some metal, I'd be willing to bet. Oh, paper burns at 500 degrees or whatever. Anyone want to bet how hot it gets in the middle of a burning pile of paper that's fifty feet wide and fed for a month?
 
Off topic. Is there any definitive proof that there was actually molten metal found in the rubble?

People reported molten metal. There hasn't been any analysis done to show us what type of metal this actually was.

There's no actual evidence that said metal was steel though. Aluminum Facades were covering every perimeter column on the tower. Then there was the aluminum from the planes and several other types of metal that would have been in the towers.

The fires that were burning under GZ were easily hot enough to melt aluminum.
 
People reported molten metal. There hasn't been any analysis done to show us what type of metal this actually was.

There's no actual evidence that said metal was steel though. Aluminum Facades were covering every perimeter column on the tower. Then there was the aluminum from the planes and several other types of metal that would have been in the towers.

The fires that were burning under GZ were easily hot enough to melt aluminum.
they coudl also melt copper, and im sure there was no shortage of pipes or wire in the buildings
 
People reported molten metal. There hasn't been any analysis done to show us what type of metal this actually was.

There's no actual evidence that said metal was steel though. Aluminum Facades were covering every perimeter column on the tower. Then there was the aluminum from the planes and several other types of metal that would have been in the towers.

The fires that were burning under GZ were easily hot enough to melt aluminum.
they coudl also melt copper, and im sure there was no shortage of pipes or wire in the buildings
No shortage indeed:

http://www.allbusiness.com/business-planning-structures/starting-a-business/394583-1.html

Copper cabling helps multiply power capacity at WTC.


Date: Sept 1993

Since the World Trade Center (WTC) opened its doors in New York City 22 years ago, growing clusters of electronic devices have begun to burden the center's electrical system, which contains some 3,000 miles of electrical conductors and about 100,000 lighting fixtures.

To address the situation, the Port Authority of New York & New Jersey, the WTC's owner, has decided to revamp the system with an electrical upgrade that will take an estimated 10 years and $81 million to complete. The project will involve extensive use of copper cabling.

...

The first step in the upgrade program will be to replace aluminum cables with copper cables from the complex's power distribution center to the 41st floor. Four transformers will also be replaced with copper wound transformers.
 
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