|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
![]() |
#1 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 5,491
|
Is the U.S. Navy Really That Dumb?
Sorry!
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,801
|
Just an update on my complaint --
I called the IG and they've received my complaint. The next step is for them to send me an official confirmation that they've received it (I love bureaucracy). So far I haven't gotten that, but that's the stage I'm at. More updates as they come. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,531
|
I probably finish my sentence before you ever get a reply.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,608
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,801
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,801
|
...and I just got my official confirmation, plus case number. I'm going to keep taking a look at the Homeland Safety website to see if there are any overt repercussions to my report, and give them about another month before I call to see if there's a status update (the IG will not contact you with any information. They'll just tell you if the case is open or closed. If it's closed, you have to submit a FoI request to get whatever details are appropriate to release which, of course, I will do.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 276
|
The Dallas Morning News published an article today about Sniffex. Thankfully it looks like they talked to Randi as a source. The Navy does not seem to be too happy with their recent purchase.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...x.39c48dd.html |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#8 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 276
|
I also found this blog about Sniffex. It has a collection of good articles and links to the manufacturers user manual. The links include many to JREF of course.
![]() http://sniffexquestions.blogspot.com/ |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#9 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,801
|
Biff, you are a wonderful, wonderful person. Thank you so much for the links! : )
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#10 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,187
|
Wow. And I used to wonder how someone could get sucked into a scam. Til it happened to me.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 276
|
No problem. I was just happy to see the mainstream media picking up on something Randi has warned about. IMHO they should do so more often.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 276
|
That Sniffex site now has another report by someone who set up a double blind test of the Sniffex. And once again it failed.
http://sniffexquestions.blogspot.com/ From what I have read, the sellers have used the following excuses for Sniffex not working: - Contamination from past explosions - The salesman was poorly trained - These two devices we are using now that worked earlier have now stopped working - Two Sniffex rods in the same area will interfere with each other - The potted or artificial plants have too much nitrogen fertilizer - The sample we were looking for was not large enough, even though we could find the same ammunition an hour ago when we hid it from ourselves. - The gunpowder does not contain enough nitrous oxide - Users of Sniffex can carry a gun, but nobody else in the area can Notably absent from the list is - Dowsing rods do not work! Maybe we should have a contest to see who can give them the best new excuse. ![]() - My chiropractor said my left leg is shorter than the right so I will keep tilting the rod to the left - The quantum magnetic resonance is bad today because of the sunspot activity - The molecular vibrations from my homeopathic cold medicine are interfering with my human energy field, which has completely ruined the zero field gradient from Container 19 - James Randi's skeptical thinking is interfering with the device by altering the magnetic fields and the amount of nitrous oxide present |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#13 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 276
|
Jackalgirl,
I was just looking back at that SniffexQuestions blog and noticed they have a link on there that mentions an old Department of Energy OIG investigation into the DOE purchasing dowsing rods. Maybe the Navy OIG would be interested in that old report. http://www.time.com/time/columnist/j...231110,00.html Perhaps the scariest parts of the article are the mention of a dowsing "cabal" at the DOE and "scientifically-illiterate politicians" running national laboratories. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#14 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,801
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#15 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 276
|
Always glad to help. I hope they give you a copy of the report that you will be able to post here. Either that or if they don't, maybe you or Randi could file a request under the Freedom of Information Act to get a publicly releasable version.
I am curious to what convinced someone to buy the Sniffex, especially without checking with their own EOD team. Better yet, hopefully the OIG will come up with a way to reduce the chance of this happening in the future. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#16 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,801
|
I'm certain I'll have to file a FOIA request to get the report; the DoDIG says they'll only let me know when the case is closed. But of course, I will do so.
I'm curious, too, about the backstory -- which I fear we'll never get. I mean, who actually bought off on this stuff? Wasn't there someone in that chain of command who said, "wait a minute, Quantum? Smells like bs!" But I don't know... |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#17 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 276
|
In some ways it reminds me of Randi saying sometimes the scientists are the easiest to trick, since they think they know what to watch for. I think it is probably the same with the police and the military. I would guess the vast majority of sales of this are based on product demonstrations. People think the most obvious trick would be a staged demonstration, where the salesman intentionally points the antenna at the sample. One of the simplest ways of preventing this is for the customer to hold the device. HE knows he is not pointing the antenna intentionally at the sample, so when it does point that way, he thinks the device must be working.
Of course we know the answer is the ideomotor effect, but most people are not aware of this phenomenon and readily accept the salesman's contention that the device works. Next thing you know, you are signing a purchase order for 8 Sniffex devices ![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#18 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,951
|
I am a bit puzzled by the purchase (probably for trials only) of this thing
by the British MoD (for the Royal Engineers). I'm not really astonished at MoD procurement buying <rule8> that doesn't work but Randi's assertion that the REs "swore that it worked" is a bit hard to swallow. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#19 |
Metasyntactic Variable
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,623
|
Actually, I'd like to own one ... no, two ... of these things. Not for what the manufacturer claims it can do (which it can't -- the claims are false), but for the shear conversational value.
I'd pay all of eleven cents for each! The only trouble is that they may not be durable enough to ever show up in a garage sale, flea market, or swap meet. Maybe make my own? Whaddaya think? |
__________________
Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; and Knowledge is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#20 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 276
|
Fnord,
But just think! Even if you do find one twenty years from now at a pawn shop, at least you won't have to worry about a dead battery. That is the best part of not having any electronics inside! Although, according to the company, the Container 19 must be replaced periodically. Don't ask me why, it just does. It is all probably too complicated for you folks on this forum to understand, so we will just have to trust the company ![]() But then again, how do you tell it stopped working if it never worked in the first place? Does it all of a sudden start working? |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#21 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,531
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#22 |
Metasyntactic Variable
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,623
|
If only I could get a detailed photo (or drawing!) of one from all sides, I could fabricate a few of my own for the next WooCon.
"You know, some say that they've used thse thing for dowsing rods, but I personally can't vouch for that (* NUDGE, WINK *). That'll be $14.99, plus tax, please..." Cha-CHING! ![]() |
__________________
Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; and Knowledge is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#23 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 276
|
Maybe Jackalgirl can just keep an eye out for the Navy garage sale. The DRMO, DMRO, or whatever they call it when they get rid of the old military stuff. At this point the Navy might be glad to sell you all 8 of theirs for less than $14.
I wonder if Sniffex gave them a refund? Perhaps the Navy was too embarrassed to ask for one. On the previous thread, my suggestion was to sell Magic 8 balls for explosive detection. It has the same accuracy as Sniffex, but with the advantage you can do it from much farther away. They are also just as effective at finding gold, silver, lost socks, lost pets, and answering any of life's questions. Heck, I could even use one of those to replace Sylvia Browne! |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#24 |
Metasyntactic Variable
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,623
|
How do you think I conducted some of my own 'cold call' readings? A client would call in to ask just one question, expecting a quick answer...
Caller: "Is my boyfriend cheating on me?" 8-Ball: "Better not tell you now." Caller: "I thought so! That lying bast...*CLICK!*" Ahh ... the good old days ... ![]() |
__________________
Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; and Knowledge is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#25 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,320
|
Wow. I had heard of the Sniffex, but given it's exposure and those who have tried it out, I was expecting it to at least seem plausible at first glance. If it was some large piece of equipment with an air sampling inlet and the explanation was something like "It takes multiple samples of the atmosphere and looks for certain volitile organics. It uses this combined with a high sensativity magnotometer which can detect the direction of magnetic field disruptions as would be cuased by a large matelic.."
Okay at least then I'd think "Well, I can see how someone might fall for that" But this? This is a joke right? It's not. Oh... that's sad. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#26 |
Metasyntactic Variable
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,623
|
I know that it's a hollow chunk of machined aluminum with a telescoping antenna attached. Simply a techy-looking dowsing rod.
Inside the block is ... what? The demensional details also escape me. Maybe if I machine a pair out of T304 surgical grade stainless steel, add a few fins and protrusions, and make it look like something you'd see in a 1950's SciFi movie, I could sell them for ... what? ... 25% less than the Sniffex people? Only what to call it? Can't infringe on any (*NUDGE/WINK*) copyrights or patents, eh? |
__________________
Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; and Knowledge is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#27 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 276
|
It looks like brass to me, not aluminum. But maybe you could sell an aluminum one as a new lightweight version. As for what is inside, it is magnets and Container 19 of course! Maybe yours could be filled with that liquid that makes the Magic 8 ball so special. A reassuring sloshing sound has to mean it works.
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#28 |
New Blood
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 12
|
A pleasure to read.
I have deprogrammed scientologists and at one time the toughest line to deal with was the "Scientology Works" "Try it" routine - previously one might quip that I don't have to try heroin to know that its use, wont enhance my life, but there is a better attack of this silly statement. Hubbard was a master stage hypnotist, and hypnosis works... Scientology doesn't. You mention "Randi saying sometimes the scientists are the easiest to trick" ( clears throat ) to go a step further, In my efforts to deconstruct Hubbard, I located every book on hypnosis and feel good therapies from 1940 thru 1952 - having made the assumption that these would have been his source materials for crafting his scam, and I'm now convinced I have that part right, and want to share a tidbit. A master stage hypnotist from that era named Harry Arons stated that the one characteristic that determines whether a person can be easily hypnotized is: Any guesses?? you will like this... It is a function of intelligence - of "IQ"! Harry said that "smart people can control their minds better" And Bill, the following is not directed at you or your post, but is merely a statement in closing, after my brief introduction to this forum in the politics threads and after reading some threads here. One point in bringing this up, is how quickly those with differing ideas get dismissed here as stupid or kooky. It has been my experience that if you want greater success in changing another person's ideas to ones that are more rational, that you must try very hard not to insult them, and I know it is hard, especially if there appears to be a performance culture. In cults, group think rules, and once you have someone who is in need - once you have their attention, realize that you might not get another chance to handle their fallacies. A dismissive attitude will send them back to their cult, WTC conspiracy forum, or wherever they have mutual agreement to re-enforce their delusions. And you have an opportunity to fix a seriously distorted view of reality... If you do not handle it, and instead dismiss it out of hand, you will have wasted an opportunity to do something that really needs to be done, and you might not get another chance, until that person has infected a few more people with lies. And it is really nice being right, isn't it? but it is downright noble to admit error, even if only to oneself. Doing the right thing in dealing with fallacious logic is far more important than merely being right. A marker for stupidity is the inability to learn even when presented with hard evidence presented using thoughtful argument. You guys are doing deprogramming here, don't waste the opportunities presented by those in need who come to this forum by blowing them off so easily. When I deprogram a scientologist, despite scientology's false claims, I cannot duct tape people to a chair, I have to hold their attention long enough to learn a new way of thinking. Thanks for listening. Arnie Lerma |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#29 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,531
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#30 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 276
|
Quote snipped for length.
Thanks for the kind words Arnie. I certainly agree we can be too quick to judge and blame victims of scams for being naive or gullable. One of the main reasons I participate on the JREF site is to remind myself I can be tricked too. I love being tricked! Things like the Color Changing Card Trick that Randi linked to recently show me I too can very easily fall for such things. More importantly, JREF reminds me that I can trick myself, as people do with the ideomotor effect or magical thinking. If you have not seen some of Randi's older videos on Google Video and elsewhere, he has some great examples of how we make assumptions without even realizing it. One of the things I admired most after I worked a few times with the US Military was their after action reviews. They would gather and very candidly discuss what went well and what needed to be improved upon. Individuals who made mistakes often were the first to point them out, and otherwise the person who did raise the issue would phrase it as an area where the unit could improve rather than blame an individual. But the idea of not blaming people in general for falling for these scams, cults, and con-artists does bring up the question though of how much culpability is there for a victim. Should they have known better? What about someone who buys a Sniffex dowsing rod and then people are killed by a bomber? What about someone who sees a Sniffex demonstration and signs up to be a local distributor? What about the inventor or the president of the company? On the http://sniffexquestions.blogspot.com blog, there is a link to a site about the DKL Lifeguard dowsing rod that quotes Carl Sagan quoting The Ethics of Belief by William Clifford, written in 1874. The author of that site, also wondered about this issue. "A shipowner was about to send to sea an emigrant ship. He knew that she was old, and not overwell built at first; that she had seen many seas and climes, and often needed repairs. Doubts had been suggested to him that possibly she was not seaworthy. These doubts preyed upon his mind, and made him unhappy; he thought that perhaps he ought to have her thoroughly overhauled and refitted, even though this should put him to great expense. Before the ship sailed, however, he succeeded in overcoming these melancholy reflections. He said to himself that she had gone safely through so many voyages and weathered so many storms, that it was idle to suppose that she would not come safely home from this trip also. He would put his trust in Providence, which could hardly fail to protect all these unhappy families that were leaving their fatherland to seek for better times elsewhere. He would dismiss from his mind all ungenerous suspicions about the honesty of builders and contractors. In such ways he acquired a sincere and comfortable conviction that his vessel was thoroughly safe and seaworthy; he watched her departure with a light heart, and benevolent wishes for the success of the exiles in their strange new home that was to be; and he got his insurance money when she went down in mid-ocean and told no tales. "What shall we say of him? Surely this, that he was verily guilty of the death of those men. It is admitted that he did sincerely believe in the soundness of his ship; but the sincerity of his conviction can in nowise help him, because he had no right to believe on such evidence as was before him. He had acquired his belief not by honestly earning it in patient investigation, but by stifling his doubts. Personally, I think the sellers of Sniffex do have a measure of culpability under the fraud statutes, at least in the United States. And certainly if someone died as a result of the use of Sniffex, reckless endangerment or criminally negligent homicide would probably apply. While perhaps someone at a security demonstration could not be blamed for believing the product worked, anyone actually using the product to screen for explosives, much less selling them, should know better and do more research. There is a mountain of evidence, including the report by the Department of Justice flat out calling products like Sniffex and the Quadro Tracker "Bogus." And while you can't prove a negative, there was no glimmer of evidence the Sniffex worked in the testing by the US Navy, to the point where I think they literally said it did not work. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#31 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 276
|
Jackalgirl,
Any word back yet from the IG office? I know the government is slow, but c'mon already. ![]() I added this thread to Digg. I figured more people should know about this than just the people in the Dallas/ Fort Worth area. If the IG does not take the complaint seriously, maybe the GAO would. What is the point of having Navy experts test things if the Navy buys them even after the experts tell them not to. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#32 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 276
|
I noticed a new message in the comments about Sniffex on Bruce Schneier's blog about security, encryption, etc. It is from someone purporting to distribute the ADE 650 in the Middle East. Of course this is the product Randi mentioned along with the ADE 100, Alpha 6, and MOLE that are all just renamed versions of the Quadro Tracker that Randi exposed as a fraud in the 1990's. To see the quote in context, you can click on the link below.
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archive...ghouse_sn.html
Quote:
![]() Ironically, most of those same arguments were already shot down in the National Institute of Justice report from 8 years ago that was mentioned previously several times in the same thread. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#33 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,785
|
Hmmm.... This is a dousing rod right? Anyway, the army fell for the same stupidity too. There was a special on woo woo therapies that had James Randi. They described the armies involvement. Anyway, if I were setting up for a sniffex study I'd point the device at the salesman and call the bomb squad.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#34 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 276
|
Yes, the Sniffex, ADE 650, ADE 100 and Alpha 6 all seem to be just as much dowsing rods as the previously exposed DKL Lifeguard, Quadro Tracker, and MOLE. A bent coat-hanger would be just as accurate, work the exact same way, and cost thousands of dollars less. If people want to believe in magic, at least they should believe in affordable magic
![]() My hope is fading that Jackalgirl's report to the Navy's Office of Inspector General will go anywhere as far as stopping Sniffex from being sold in the US. It is always sad to see how many fall for these dowsing rods, and how many are willing to capitalize on that fact. Technoextreme, do you remember which army used the dowsing rod? |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#35 |
I'm watching you
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,320
|
Ah Biff, that's great! Not only does he pull out the old "double blind tests don't work" gag but he then goes on to say "but I can't tell you why right now."
It's a sad day when the woos are too lazy to make stuff up. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#36 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 276
|
Yisidro,
Some days I am in awe of how oblivious some people are. Especially in a case such as this where the debater mentions the idea of double-blind studies, but can yet dismiss them as if they are non-working magical spells. I guess it goes to the human tendancy to find an explanation for things, even if a wrong one, just to ease the discomfort of not knowing something. Other days I pound my head in frustration. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#37 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,785
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#38 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 276
|
MrJim posted a reply to me on Schneier.com
Quote:
MrJim, Thank you for your response. I am curious why you used quotation marks around the words "'reports'" and "'tests,'" implying they were not legitimate. What was wrong with the tests at Sandia Laboratory of the MOLE or the Navy testing of the Sniffex? You say the scientists on this forum will already know the answer as to why these appear to detectors fail the tests. My hypothesis is that the detectors fail the tests because they cannot detect explosives. Please tell me why you think these detectors will work for your customers, but not when a scientist is testing it. If the the scientists on this forum actually do know this fact very well as you say, wouldn't the Chinese scientists and manufacturers have figured it out also? How would you suggest demonstrating your product in a way that would prove the device works? |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#39 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 276
|
I should have read this earlier. It explains everything perfectly!!
![]() http://www.sniffex-eu.com/description.htm After the SniffexQuestions blog made fun of Sniffex for wrongly saying for the past two years nitrous oxide, N2O, was the basis for all explosives, at least they now say they search for nitrogen dioxide, NO2. Should I be surprised by the fact they got the chemistry wrong again?
Quote:
Once again Sniffex fails the test. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#40 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 276
|
On Bruce Schneier's Blog, MrJim posted another message.
Quote:
Would using brand new boxes for each test eliminate the chance of "micro-contamination"? Where is the contamination coming from? |
__________________
Information about Sylvia Browne Sniffex ADE 651 Astronomy xkcd webcomic ADE651 GT200 Dr. Edward Tobinick |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | |
|
|