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Old 24th February 2007, 12:31 PM   #1
Brown
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The Eric Cartman Principle of Foreign Policy

For those who don't know much about South Park, Eric Cartman is the heavy-set kid who has grandiose ideas, a smart mouth, and a blatantly self-centered attitude. He is greatly offended by the criticism of others, but carelessly or viciously insults others without regard to their feelings. He generally does not listen, does not empathize and does not see past his own self-interest.

And when he starts on a project and it turns sour on him, he resolves to wash his hands of the affair with the words:

"Screw you guys; I'm going home."

Cartman has no shame when he says this, and he does not admit defeat. On the contrary, his attitude is that of defiance, as if he is trying to preserve his dignity.

The USA is on the road toward the Eric Cartman principle of foreign policy. The other allies, particularly Great Britain, may already be there. The Iraq endeavor has gone very sour, and the locals don't seem to be resolved to solve the problem. Already, some politicians in the USA are saying that the nation ought to adopt the equivalent of the Cartman principle. If the Iraqis aren't interested in making things better, then screw 'em; we're goin' home.

The reason I mention this is not to debate the wisdom--or lack thereof--of the Eric Cartman principle of foreign policy. I merely want to coin the phrase "the Eric Cartman principle of foreign policy," so that when we see it, we can say, "Ah! There's the Eric Cartman principle of foreign policy!"
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Old 24th February 2007, 12:46 PM   #2
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I think you may be on to something here. Recall the first stage of the strategy: "You will respect my authoritah!"
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Old 24th February 2007, 01:07 PM   #3
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It was foolish for us to believe that we could create a democracy without a thorough understanding of the existing cultural and political dichotomy. Iraq was really three nations held together by the force of a dictator. The only way to ensure its continued survival as one state is through either another dictatorship or dictatorship like central governmant. No one in Iraq wants such a system nor would they bow down to one. I believe that the nation's devolution is bound to happen, sooner or later. Perhaps the best thing to do is pre-empt this situation by peacefully dividing the country in a way that moderately satisfies all parties and shares resources so that all entities have a reasonable change of success. Or we can just wait for a full blown civil war which will see the Shiites and Sunnis conquer land and kick out those they dont like, reminiscent of the Bosnia situation.
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Old 24th February 2007, 06:03 PM   #4
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But Cartman is funny where is the humor in this situation? My favorite is the one where Cartman starts a Christian rock band.
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Old 24th February 2007, 06:14 PM   #5
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If we simply leave Iraq with it in this situation of civil war and pervasive religious violence and crime and corruption all we'll be doing is opening the door to things much much worse. Genocide, Ethnic cleansing, Religious massacres on scales not seen in decades, not to mention creating a basic "vacuum" for countries like Iran and Syria to fill with their despotic policies. All of this would actually be a hard blow to our foreign diplomacy across the world. We started this with Iraq. We went in with a stick and hit the bee's nest over and over and now we're mad that we're getting stung. Leaving now would be the worst thing for our foreign policy since Vietnam. We need to follow the Iraq study group immediately and start working to fix this problem.
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Old 24th February 2007, 06:16 PM   #6
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Being a long-time South Park fan, I felt your description of Cartman was spot on. You forget to include Cartman's total self-delusion as well, but I guess it was implied. Your term "Eric Cartman Principle of Foreign Policy" certainly applies.

As pathetic that is as current policy, the truly sad and scary aspect is that the rest of the world sees the foreign policy as it as well. Last week, that wonderful Prime Minister of Iran basically described the US as having no credibility. Well they (rest of world) ever trust Eric again?

Charlie (fat and bloated in the US) Monoxide
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Old 24th February 2007, 06:24 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Solus View Post
But Cartman is funny where is the humor in this situation? My favorite is the one where Cartman starts a Christian rock band.
Quote:
Cartman: Token, how many times do we have to go through this? You're black, you can play bass.
Token: I'm gettin' sick of your stereotypes.
Cartman: Be as sick as you want, just gimme a goddamn bass line.
Token: (Playng a bass melody) Goddammit.
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Old 24th February 2007, 07:05 PM   #8
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Cartman is not heavy-set.


He's big-boned.
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Old 24th February 2007, 07:08 PM   #9
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And festively plump.
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Old 24th February 2007, 07:10 PM   #10
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I thought it was going to be along the lines of:

"I'm going to kick you squah in the nuts!"
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Old 24th February 2007, 07:57 PM   #11
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Any chance we can get Cesar Millan into the White House?
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Old 24th February 2007, 08:11 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
Iraq was really three nations held together by the force of a dictator.
Actually, it's much worse than that. It's more like hundreds of nations, w/ tribal loyalty trumping all else.

But I'm all for saying screw 'em. The Sunnis started the whole insurgency thing, welcoming al Qaeda and their ilk. Al Qaeda did their best to fan the flames of sectarian violence, and succeeded. Now our presence is the only thing keeping the Shia from going on a genocidal rampage against the Sunni, let them reap what they sowed after we're gone. I'm all for letting the place go to hell, at least they're no threat to anyone then and the chaos will be all Iran can handle, keeping them in check also. And if oil prices rise to the point where alternatives and conservation take hold so much the better.

At some point they're just going to have to fight until they're tired of fighting.
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Old 24th February 2007, 08:13 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by MajorOrgan View Post
Any chance we can get Cesar Millan into the White House?
Nope, he was born in Mexico. I'd love to see him grab Chavez by the back of his neck and push him to the ground until he submits though!
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Old 24th February 2007, 08:54 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
At some point they're just going to have to fight until they're tired of fighting.
...which will be about 10 minutes after hell freezes over.

If our policy is cartman-like, the Middle East is loony tunes. Buncha Daffy Ducks bouncing around going "woo hoo! woo hoo! woo hoo!" and blowing up anything within reach. Sort of a tradition. Anyway....

So Brown, you're saying we shouldn't pull out of Iraq I take it? What do you suggest?
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Old 24th February 2007, 10:38 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
But I'm all for saying screw 'em. The Sunnis started the whole insurgency thing, welcoming al Qaeda and their ilk. Al Qaeda did their best to fan the flames of sectarian violence, and succeeded. Now our presence is the only thing keeping the Shia from going on a genocidal rampage against the Sunni, let them reap what they sowed after we're gone. I'm all for letting the place go to hell, at least they're no threat to anyone then and the chaos will be all Iran can handle, keeping them in check also.
Doubtful Iran is pretty good a land warfare and has an iraqi shia buffer zone between them and any fighting.

Not the problem is that saudia arabia looks are Iran with it's growing power and nuclear ambitions and goes any buys some nukes off pakistan.
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Old 25th February 2007, 01:07 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by bigred View Post
So Brown, you're saying we shouldn't pull out of Iraq I take it? What do you suggest?
In this thread, I take no stand. I merely point out that what I call "the Eric Cartman principle of foreign policy" is now being given serious consideration. It's being prettied up and presented with diplomatic language, but it's basically "Screw you guys; I'm going home."

It is worth noting that Cartman gets into a lot of fixes voluntarily, and he is often responsible (at least in part) for his own misery. But he doesn't care. Screw those guys; he's going home.

By the way, the most memorable response to Cartman's announcement came from Jennifer Aniston: "Good! You deserve to die, you little b@$+@rd!!"
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Old 25th February 2007, 04:48 AM   #17
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The US Congress has just approved the money for the construction of some giant fence along the border with Mexico. It's going to be useless there.

But wouldn't that money-for-a-fence be better if a ten foot high razor-wire barrier were built around Iraq? Then you could keep them all on the inside, where they could fight it out among themselves, and keep everyone else out. Easier and cheaper to patrol the fence than try to solve the Iraqi woes for them. Fortress Iraq??



You KNOW it makes sense!
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Old 25th February 2007, 05:26 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Actually, it's much worse than that. It's more like hundreds of nations, w/ tribal loyalty trumping all else.

But I'm all for saying screw 'em. The Sunnis started the whole insurgency thing, welcoming al Qaeda and their ilk. Al Qaeda did their best to fan the flames of sectarian violence, and succeeded. Now our presence is the only thing keeping the Shia from going on a genocidal rampage against the Sunni, let them reap what they sowed after we're gone. I'm all for letting the place go to hell, at least they're no threat to anyone then and the chaos will be all Iran can handle, keeping them in check also. And if oil prices rise to the point where alternatives and conservation take hold so much the better.

At some point they're just going to have to fight until they're tired of fighting.
Regrettably, I agree. Iraq is like the loved one who can't get off drugs or straighten up their ****. There is only so much you can do to help them, eventually, they're going to have to learn the hard way.
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Old 25th February 2007, 06:10 AM   #19
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Iraq just needs another psudo religious dictator.
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Old 25th February 2007, 08:00 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Brown View Post
For those who don't know much about South Park, Eric Cartman is the heavy-set kid who has grandiose ideas, a smart mouth, and a blatantly self-centered attitude.
He's not fat, he's big boned.

Originally Posted by Brown View Post
The reason I mention this is not to debate the wisdom--or lack thereof--of the Eric Cartman principle of foreign policy. I merely want to coin the phrase "the Eric Cartman principle of foreign policy," so that when we see it, we can say, "Ah! There's the Eric Cartman principle of foreign policy!"
I suppose you'll be expecting a royalty check every time some one uses the term?
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Old 25th February 2007, 08:08 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by DuckTapeFileMan View Post
Iraq just needs another psudo religious dictator.
Hmmmmm . . . I wonder where we could find a world leader who:

A. believes in torture,

B. doesn't respect the privacy of citizens,

C. thinks due process is detrimental,

D. would invade another country for no good reason,

E. likes dressing up in military uniforms,

F. doesn't care about the opinions or needs of his people,

G. goes through the members of his administration faster than a one year old goes through diapers,

H. doesn't support freedom of the press,

I. uses his military as pawns in a twisted game of dominance,

J. uses fear and paranoia to spread his policies

K. believes his religion is infallible,

L. and knows the oil business?
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Old 25th February 2007, 09:50 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Now our presence is the only thing keeping the Shia from going on a genocidal rampage against the Sunni, let them reap what they sowed after we're gone.
No it is not. The without comparison most prominent and influential Shia authority, grand ayatollah al-Sistani, is even calling for his followers not to retaliate against Sunni violence. And this isn't because he wants to give himself some sort of jesus-like reputation, for example he is at the same time calling for the brutal killing of homosexuals. If he were to do the same for Sunnis, you'd get your wish no doubt. But he's not.

Originally Posted by Brown View Post
In this thread, I take no stand. I merely point out that what I call "the Eric Cartman principle of foreign policy" is now being given serious consideration. It's being prettied up and presented with diplomatic language, but it's basically "Screw you guys; I'm going home."
I think it is rather "****, we really screwed this up! We'd better stop doing this."
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Old 25th February 2007, 12:24 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Brown View Post
In this thread, I take no stand. I merely point out that what I call "the Eric Cartman principle of foreign policy" is now being given serious consideration. It's being prettied up and presented with diplomatic language, but it's basically "Screw you guys; I'm going home."
If you mean Cartman when says that he leaves and we're also looking at leaving Iraq, yes there is a similarity.....but I hardly think that in itself means our foreign policy is generally "Cartman like" in general.

You guys; seriously.
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Old 25th February 2007, 02:14 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Merko View Post
No it is not. The without comparison most prominent and influential Shia authority, grand ayatollah al-Sistani, is even calling for his followers not to retaliate against Sunni violence. And this isn't because he wants to give himself some sort of jesus-like reputation, for example he is at the same time calling for the brutal killing of homosexuals. If he were to do the same for Sunnis, you'd get your wish no doubt. But he's not.
I always hear how he's the most influential, yet it is Sadr who controls the Parliament, the executive, and has his own private army.
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Old 8th July 2007, 12:31 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Dustin Kesselberg View Post
If we simply leave Iraq with it in this situation of civil war and pervasive religious violence and crime and corruption all we'll be doing is opening the door to things much much worse. Genocide, Ethnic cleansing, Religious massacres on scales not seen in decades, not to mention creating a basic "vacuum" for countries like Iran and Syria to fill with their despotic policies. All of this would actually be a hard blow to our foreign diplomacy across the world. We started this with Iraq. We went in with a stick and hit the bee's nest over and over and now we're mad that we're getting stung. Leaving now would be the worst thing for our foreign policy since Vietnam. We need to follow the Iraq study group immediately and start working to fix this problem.
I read this post, and I agreed with pretty much everything in it (except the Iraq Study Group, that was never anything more than an excuse to let Bush run another six months off the clock). The problem is that you completely miss the problems with the US staying in Iraq. Frankly, we are one of the things destabilizing it.

First off, our mere presence in Iraq is an incredibly effective recruitment tool for Al Queda and similar terrorist groups. The number of terrorists that we capture or kill is meaningless if they can recruit new terrorists faster.

Next, we are antagonizing Iraqs neighbors. They see us building massive permanent military bases in the heart of the middle-east, our leadership is spouting anti-muslim rhetoric, and generally (rule 8)ing all over the place, and suddenly building a nuclear stockpile for self-defense starts looking rational to them.

Finally, we are enraging the Iraqis who we are supposed to be protecting. We have invaded their country and have occupied it for four years now. It is not a matter of rationality, they hate us. This makes them more likely to support insurgent attacks against the US.

The Iraqi on Iraqi violence seems to be happening with or without us. Indeed, many of the Iraqi forces that we are training are taking this information and usuing against other Iraqis. We simply do not have the resources to police the whole country.

There will be problems if we leave, but there will be problems if we stay. If there will more more problems if we stay, then we should leave. It's that simple.
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Old 8th July 2007, 12:57 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Actually, it's much worse than that. It's more like hundreds of nations, w/ tribal loyalty trumping all else.

But I'm all for saying screw 'em. The Sunnis started the whole insurgency thing, welcoming al Qaeda and their ilk. Al Qaeda did their best to fan the flames of sectarian violence, and succeeded. Now our presence is the only thing keeping the Shia from going on a genocidal rampage against the Sunni, let them reap what they sowed after we're gone. I'm all for letting the place go to hell, at least they're no threat to anyone then and the chaos will be all Iran can handle, keeping them in check also. And if oil prices rise to the point where alternatives and conservation take hold so much the better.

At some point they're just going to have to fight until they're tired of fighting.

I'm all for the "Eric Cartman principle of foreign policy"-Term.

And in reply to Wildcat's hilarious example of this "ignorant Cartman attitude", I suggest that we also introduce phrases like: "Sorry, your Post was a typical Cartman", "LMFAO, that was funny, you Cartman", "Cartman couldn't have said it any better", "Are you Cartman's mentor?" or simply: "Cartman!" (Like in case of "Strawman!").
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Old 8th July 2007, 01:06 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Mephisto View Post
Hmmmmm . . . I wonder where we could find a world leader who:

A. believes in torture,

B. doesn't respect the privacy of citizens,

C. thinks due process is detrimental,

D. would invade another country for no good reason,

E. likes dressing up in military uniforms,

F. doesn't care about the opinions or needs of his people,

G. goes through the members of his administration faster than a one year old goes through diapers,

H. doesn't support freedom of the press,

I. uses his military as pawns in a twisted game of dominance,

J. uses fear and paranoia to spread his policies

K. believes his religion is infallible,

L. and knows the oil business?

Uhm, there is a little, maybe insignificant, but nevertheless MAJOR! problem:



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Saddam was believed to be intelligent.
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Old 8th July 2007, 02:02 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
I always hear how he's the most influential, yet it is Sadr who controls the Parliament, the executive, and has his own private army.
Uh... no, he doesn't control Parliament or the executive, and his militia is hardly an army. Here's what an Iraqi had to say about Sadr recently:
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/200...feeds-him.html
Quote:
In our last post we briefly mentioned a statement in which Sadr’s office accused Iran of hosting and assisting al-Qaeda, today I’ll talk about that statement in more detail.

The claim itself is not strange. What’s strange is whom it came from.
...
It was the result of factors that accumulated over time, and matured during his visit to Tehran. Sadr finally realized that his role was only second or third to that of the SIIC of Hakim, or the Dawa Party. A situation that a young revolutionary leader who won all his fame and clout in just a few short years couldn’t tolerate. In those years his name, and his army, rocketed upward in the media headlines and proved a powerful presence on the ground. Realizing that he’s being treated as a #2 made the ambitious, poorly educated youngster lose his balance. And he had little balance to give, compared to the older big-names who have extensive experience in the political world.
Sadr is trouble, but he's hardly in charge.

Edit to add: but it isn't clear at all that Sistani could actually stop ethnic cleansing against the Sunnis on his own if we left, on that larger point Merko is mistaken. There are a lot more people than just Sadr who would like to engage in such a project, and it's actually the response Al Qaeda in Iraq is unwittingly encouraging (I say unwittingly because they stupidly think the Sunnis can win).
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Old 9th July 2007, 07:39 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Actually, it's much worse than that. It's more like hundreds of nations, w/ tribal loyalty trumping all else.

But I'm all for saying screw 'em. The Sunnis started the whole insurgency thing, welcoming al Qaeda and their ilk.
Think about the movie, Red Dawn, in Arabic, with the 'Merikuns as the invaders, and it rather makes sense from the Sunni point of view. What's Arabic for "Wolverine?"
Quote:
Al Qaeda did their best to fan the flames of sectarian violence, and succeeded.
That's their schtick, creating chaos.
Quote:
Now our presence is the only thing keeping the Shia from going on a genocidal rampage against the Sunni, let them reap what they sowed after we're gone.
Perhaps, and perhaps not. I think the Syrians and the Saudis have a vote.
Quote:
I'm all for letting the place go to hell, at least they're no threat to anyone then and the chaos will be all Iran can handle, keeping them in check also. And if oil prices rise to the point where alternatives and conservation take hold so much the better.
No threat to anyone else? Look at the land locked Afghanistan, which became a haven for terrorists. Look at where Iraq sits, somewhat in the middle of the world's trade lanes, or at least access to them.

Think of Iraq as a simmering stew pot, slow cooking Salafist, or Shia, terrorists who export their product globally. Perhaps this is paranoid thinking, but it is a possible outcome of the US pulling the plug abruptly. We went in on a worst case (the one percent rule Cheney referenced) premise, the worst case for the pullout option is perhaps a greater than one percent deal.

By the way, it will take 6 - 10 months to execute the retrograde movement south out of Iraq via Kuwait in anything resembling an orderly fashion, and preserving the bulk of the equipment. That's logistics.

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At some point they're just going to have to fight until they're tired of fighting.
Sure. Why not?. Look how well things went in Rwanda, when the "let 'em play" policy was chosen.

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Old 9th July 2007, 03:40 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Dustin Kesselberg View Post
If we simply leave Iraq with it in this situation of civil war and pervasive religious violence and crime and corruption all we'll be doing is opening the door to things much much worse. Genocide, Ethnic cleansing, Religious massacres on scales not seen in decades, not to mention creating a basic "vacuum" for countries like Iran and Syria to fill with their despotic policies.
Yes, if we leave Iraq now everything you said will happen. The catch is that if we leave 5 years from now or 50 years from now, the same things will happen. These people have been fighting and killing each other for centuries. Before the U.S. was even a British colony, these folks were fighting each other.

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All of this would actually be a hard blow to our foreign diplomacy across the world. We started this with Iraq. We went in with a stick and hit the bee's nest over and over and now we're mad that we're getting stung. Leaving now would be the worst thing for our foreign policy since Vietnam. We need to follow the Iraq study group immediately and start working to fix this problem.
Why do you think this problem is fixable?
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Old 14th December 2011, 10:48 AM   #31
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With this closing of this chapter of history, we can finally depart in peace, leaving a more stable Iraq, an Iraq more committed to progress in technology, progress in culture, progress in education, and progress in human rights.

There are those who say that Iraq is not ready for the US to leave. There are those who say that the country is not stable, that it can be taken over by those who wish us ill above all else. There are those--some of them Iraqi citizens--who say that much more needs to be done to heal the nation of Iraq and set it up on its feet. There are those who say that our departure should be more gradual, and should take place over several more years. And there are those who hold that the US ought never to depart from Iraq, ever, regardless of the circumstances.

To them I say, "Screw you guys. We're going home."
No, this speech isn't real, at least not yet.
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Old 14th December 2011, 11:22 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Brown View Post
For those who don't know much about South Park, Eric Cartman is the heavy-set kid who has grandiose ideas, a smart mouth, and a blatantly self-centered attitude. He is greatly offended by the criticism of others, but carelessly or viciously insults others without regard to their feelings. He generally does not listen, does not empathize and does not see past his own self-interest.

And when he starts on a project and it turns sour on him, he resolves to wash his hands of the affair with the words:

"Screw you guys; I'm going home."

Cartman has no shame when he says this, and he does not admit defeat. On the contrary, his attitude is that of defiance, as if he is trying to preserve his dignity.

The USA is on the road toward the Eric Cartman principle of foreign policy. The other allies, particularly Great Britain, may already be there. The Iraq endeavor has gone very sour, and the locals don't seem to be resolved to solve the problem. Already, some politicians in the USA are saying that the nation ought to adopt the equivalent of the Cartman principle. If the Iraqis aren't interested in making things better, then screw 'em; we're goin' home.

The reason I mention this is not to debate the wisdom--or lack thereof--of the Eric Cartman principle of foreign policy. I merely want to coin the phrase "the Eric Cartman principle of foreign policy," so that when we see it, we can say, "Ah! There's the Eric Cartman principle of foreign policy!"
rather putting the horse before the carriage here, no?

the reason Cartman is funny is because he epitomizes the characteristics that are already an aspect of much of the national character. Cartman was modelled upon these American traits, its a little redundant to turn around and call America "Cartman."
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Old 14th December 2011, 11:26 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
...Perhaps the best thing to do is pre-empt this situation by peacefully dividing the country in a way that moderately satisfies all parties and shares resources so that all entities have a reasonable change of success...
What makes you believe that this potential is viable? None of the three factions want to divide and share the limited resources of the nation and none will acquiesce to giving others what they desire for themselves.
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Old 14th December 2011, 11:29 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Dustin Kesselberg View Post
If we simply leave Iraq with it in this situation of civil war and pervasive religious violence and crime and corruption all we'll be doing is opening the door to things much much worse. Genocide, Ethnic cleansing, Religious massacres on scales not seen in decades, not to mention creating a basic "vacuum" for countries like Iran and Syria to fill with their despotic policies. All of this would actually be a hard blow to our foreign diplomacy across the world. We started this with Iraq. We went in with a stick and hit the bee's nest over and over and now we're mad that we're getting stung. Leaving now would be the worst thing for our foreign policy since Vietnam. We need to follow the Iraq study group immediately and start working to fix this problem.
should have thought of all this before all the foriegn adventurism BS began. Humpty dumpty is already broken and all the kings men and all the kings horses will never put humpty back together again.
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Old 14th December 2011, 11:43 AM   #35
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'Trakar' AKA 'TShaitanaku':

Have you noticed that the posts you are responding to are about five years old?
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Old 14th December 2011, 12:26 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
'Trakar' AKA 'TShaitanaku':

Have you noticed that the posts you are responding to are about five years old?
not at all, is such relevent to my comments?
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Old 14th December 2011, 12:31 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
not at all, is such relevent to my comments?
Well, Thunder is unlikely to respond to your questions.
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Old 14th December 2011, 12:42 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
not at all, is such relevent to my comments?
So you did not notice that detail, eh? Well that sure explains alot.

In the meantime, however, I would say that having someone respond to a five year posting is quite relevant.
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Old 14th December 2011, 02:04 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Well, Thunder is unlikely to respond to your questions.
The question "asked" of him was rhetorical.
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Old 14th December 2011, 02:54 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Charlie Monoxide View Post
Being a long-time South Park fan, I felt your description of Cartman was spot on. You forget to include Cartman's total self-delusion as well, but I guess it was implied.
That may be a bit off-topic, but I do not think Eric Cartman is self-delusional. He always comes out on top, or at least no worse than others. So his superior attitude is somewhat justified.
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