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being necessary to the security of a free State

Upchurch

Papa Funkosophy
Joined
May 10, 2002
Messages
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Location
St. Louis, MO
Second Amendment of the US Constitution said:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

I was in on a discussion the other day about the whole gun control issue. Maybe it's been discussed before, but I'm not too well versed in the issue and I was introduced to the idea that in today's day and age, the security of a free State comes not at the barrel of a gun but at the click of a mouse.

My understanding of this is that given that we no longer need to defend our boarders against Native Americans, the French, and the Spanish*, the only threat to our free State is a bloated governmental bureaucracy that likes to pick away at those freedoms a free State enjoys. Further given the realities of our modern world, an internet free of government regulation is by far more effective means to "bear arms" for the security of a free State.

I will plead to being a complete novice on the gun control issue. Personally, I think guns and gun licenses should be at least as regulated as cars and driver's licenses, but that's a soft opinion and I don't think it is really the point.

If this alternate view of "bearing arms" has been discussed before, could someone direct me to it. If it hasn't, what do you think?




* by which I mean from Spain. Let's leave the current Mexican immigration fad issues for another thread.
 
Maybe it's been discussed before, but I'm not too well versed in the issue and I was introduced to the idea that in today's day and age, the security of a free State comes not at the barrel of a gun but at the click of a mouse.

My understanding of this is that given that we no longer need to defend our boarders against Native Americans, the French, and the Spanish*, the only threat to our free State is a bloated governmental bureaucracy that likes to pick away at those freedoms a free State enjoys.

I wonder if you have heard of the fellow who's name was Neville Chamberlain? You know, the peace in our time guy. And have you ever tried to negotiate with today gangs?
 
I was in on a discussion the other day about the whole gun control issue. Maybe it's been discussed before, but I'm not too well versed in the issue and I was introduced to the idea that in today's day and age, the security of a free State comes not at the barrel of a gun but at the click of a mouse.

My understanding of this is that given that we no longer need to defend our boarders against Native Americans, the French, and the Spanish*, the only threat to our free State is a bloated governmental bureaucracy that likes to pick away at those freedoms a free State enjoys. Further given the realities of our modern world, an internet free of government regulation is by far more effective means to "bear arms" for the security of a free State.

I will plead to being a complete novice on the gun control issue. Personally, I think guns and gun licenses should be at least as regulated as cars and driver's licenses, but that's a soft opinion and I don't think it is really the point.

If this alternate view of "bearing arms" has been discussed before, could someone direct me to it. If it hasn't, what do you think?




* by which I mean from Spain. Let's leave the current Mexican immigration fad issues for another thread.
I suggest you visit the web site of the Minutemen. They chose a route similar to what you advocate, but took the time to voluntarily not resort to acting as an armed militia. That was an active choice in policy.

DR
 
We could turn it around.

If a State doesn't have a "well regulated militia" and the People doesn't have the right to keep and bear arms, does that mean that the State isn't free?

Condescending. Haughty. Superior, even.

Hm?
 
The second amendment does not say "rifles" or "Pistols"or knives, it say "arms". SOoo. if you need a computer on the net to maintain your freedom from an oppressive government, you ought to be able to "keep and bear" one.

Concealed lap tops for ALL!

Though I do believe the part about 'freedom of the press' covers computers well.
 
The 2nd Amendment was addressed a week ago by a Federal Appeals Court when it overturned the District of Columbia handgun ban. There was a thread here, and the court decision is here.

From the court's decision:
The District of Columbia argues that the prefatory clause declares the Amendment’s only purpose—to shield the state militias from federal encroachment—and that the operative clause, even when read in isolation, speaks solely to military affairs and guarantees a civic, rather than an individual, right. In other words, according to the District, the operative clause is not just limited by the prefatory clause, but instead both clauses share an explicitly civic character. The District claims that the Second Amendment “protects private possession of weapons only in connection with performance of civic duties as part of a well-regulated citizens militia organized for the security of a free state.” Individuals may be able to enforce the Second Amendment right, but only if the law in question “will impair their participation in common defense and law enforcement when called to serve in the militia.” But because the District reads “a well regulated Militia” to signify only the organized militias of the founding era—institutions that the District implicitly argues are no longer in existence today—invocation of the Second Amendment right is conditioned upon service in a defunct institution. Tellingly, we think, the District did not suggest what sort of law, if any, would violate the Second Amendment today—in fact, at oral argument, appellees’ counsel asserted that it would be constitutional for the District to ban all firearms outright. In short, we take the District’s position to be that the Second Amendment is a dead letter.
........................................................................................................

In determining whether the Second Amendment’s guarantee is an individual one, or some sort of collective right, the most important word is the one the drafters chose to describe the holders of the right—“the people.” That term is found in the First, Second, Fourth, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments. It has never been doubted that these provisions were designed to protect the interests of individuals against government intrusion, interference, or usurpation. We also note that the Tenth Amendment—“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people”—indicates that the authors of the Bill of Rights were perfectly capable of distinguishing between “the people,” on the one hand, and “the states,” on the other. The natural reading of “the right of the people” in the Second Amendment would accord with usage elsewhere in the Bill of Rights.

.....................................................................................

When we look at the Bill of Rights as a whole, the setting of the Second Amendment reinforces its individual nature. The Bill of Rights was almost entirely a declaration of individual rights, and the Second Amendment’s inclusion therein strongly indicates that it, too, was intended to protect personal liberty. The collective right advocates ask us to imagine that the First Congress situated a sui generis states’ right among a catalogue of cherished individual liberties without comment. We believe the canon of construction known as noscitur a sociis applies here. Just as we would read an ambiguous statutory term in light of its context, we should read any supposed ambiguities in the Second Amendment in light of its context. Every other provision of the Bill of Rights, excepting the Tenth, which speaks explicitly about the allocation of governmental power, protects rights enjoyed by citizens in their individual capacity. The Second Amendment would be an inexplicable aberration if it were not read to protect individual rights as well.
 
We could turn it around.

If a State doesn't have a "well regulated militia" and the People doesn't have the right to keep and bear arms, does that mean that the State isn't free?
Well, no you can't turn it around like that. The amendment says that the well regulated militia is necessary to the security of the free state, not the freedom aspect of it.

So if you want to turn it around, a free state that has no well regulated militia can still be free, it just might not be secure.
 
It all depends on where you live. If you live somewhere iffy, it might be sensible to acquire a gun.

Think about New Orleans, post-Katrina. Would you rather have been there with a gun, or without?
 
I was in on a discussion the other day about the whole gun control issue. Maybe it's been discussed before, but I'm not too well versed in the issue and I was introduced to the idea that in today's day and age, the security of a free State comes not at the barrel of a gun but at the click of a mouse.
I have long been a bit puzzled at the notion that "bearing arms" would be an effective way to protect a citizen from her/his government if it decided to be predatory. It reduces the government monopoly on lethal force from 100% to almost 100% doesn't it?
 
I have long been a bit puzzled at the notion that "bearing arms" would be an effective way to protect a citizen from her/his government if it decided to be predatory. It reduces the government monopoly on lethal force from 100% to almost 100% doesn't it?
Yep, practically useless.

It is my understanding, at least in part, that founding fathers wanted to make sure the people had every possibility to overthrow the government should it become necessary. If you wanted to do that today (and I'm not sure we could anymore), physical force would be the shortest road to failure. "Virtual arms", and I'm not referring to free speech issues, would be a much more efficient and have the only chance of actually succeeding, imho.
 
Well, no you can't turn it around like that. The amendment says that the well regulated militia is necessary to the security of the free state, not the freedom aspect of it.

So if you want to turn it around, a free state that has no well regulated militia can still be free, it just might not be secure.

Rubbish. If it isn't secure, then there is no free state.

Do you think an armed population secures a free state?
 
Do you think an armed population secures a free state?
Not necessarily, but neither does it defeat a free state. A population that can't defend itself (be it with firearms or otherwise) definitely does not secure a free state.
 
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Rubbish. If it isn't secure, then there is no free state.
That is a different question, isn't it? And not exactly a black and white one, either. States will have differing levels of security and freedom. I can see some minimal level of security being necessary for freedom - but whether that necessarily includes armed citizenry is a question of the level of security, not the level of freedom.

Do you think an armed population secures a free state?
Secures it against what? Invaders? It probably doesn't hurt. But to bring it back to the language of the amendment, I don't believe that a "well regulated militia" is necessary for the security of a free state. I think that a free state can be secure without it. But again, that goes to the level of security and not the level of freedom.
 
That whole first part of the Amendment is way too open to interpretation and should be scrapped.
 
I suggest you visit the web site of the Minutemen. They chose a route similar to what you advocate, but took the time to voluntarily not resort to acting as an armed militia. That was an active choice in policy.
Well, first, I don't think I meant what you think I meant. (apologies to Inigo Montoya) Second, I have cousin-in-law Arizona who would argue that the Minutemen do act like an armed militia in practice, if not in policy, although not particularly well-regulated.

Regardless, that is off topic. I'm not referring to external threats to a free State, if any truly exist.
 
"If you want to secure a state, set it free. If it stays free it's secure. If it doesn't it never was"

—(Not) Richard Bach
 
Yep, practically useless.

It is my understanding, at least in part, that founding fathers wanted to make sure the people had every possibility to overthrow the government should it become necessary. If you wanted to do that today (and I'm not sure we could anymore), physical force would be the shortest road to failure. "Virtual arms", and I'm not referring to free speech issues, would be a much more efficient and have the only chance of actually succeeding, imho.

So you say that the citizens ought to have the right to bear whatever arms the gov't would possibly use against said citizens? Tanks, (Waco), tear gas, (numerous), machine guns (coast guard, secret service, cops) , rockets, missiles... internet. I can't argue with the logic that the founders wanted us to individually keep up our capabilities to defend ourselves from the government. That's the "living document" interpretation. The courts have upheld that we have the right to 'bear' arms that were improved over the flintlock of 1776.
 
So you say that the citizens ought to have the right to bear whatever arms the gov't would possibly use against said citizens?
No, I'm saying the founding fathers wanted to make sure the people could dissolve/overthrow the government should it become necessary. That does not mean that the government should arm the people with firepower equal to that which it arms the military.


On an aside, given that the founding fathers did not know about the horrible forms of armament we could come up with, I'm inclined to think that they wouldn't have wanted the government to have such things, but that is neither here nor there.
 
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I have long been a bit puzzled at the notion that "bearing arms" would be an effective way to protect a citizen from her/his government if it decided to be predatory.

Why? It's worked before, or atleast given the population/resistance fighters/whatever a fighting chance.
 

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