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Tags wtc , world trade center , controlled demolition , 911 conspiracy theory

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Old 24th March 2007, 04:24 PM   #1
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Question for those who believe in controlled demolition

I have a question for those who believe that the twin towers were destroyed by explosives-where'd the remnants of the charges go?

To take down a building that big you would need A LOT of charges. I admit I'm not an expert in regards to demolition, but I can safely that to take out both towers and building 7 you would need at a bare minimum 12,000 charges*.

Now after just about every bombing and demolition in history, there have been fragments of the explosives left over. Yet no one saw these in the rubble at GZ. Where'd they go?

Or is it that the controlled demolition argument is utterly ill-thought out and has no basis in reality?

*I'm going by the demolition of the Hudson building in Michigan which took 4,000 charges to bring down. It remains the largest building in the US brought down by CD.
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Old 24th March 2007, 05:01 PM   #2
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The mini-nukes eliminated the evidence.
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Old 24th March 2007, 05:44 PM   #3
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I'm no demolitions expert either, but don't demolitions typically require so many charges because they want to make sure the surrounding buildings aren't damaged and that no one is hurt? If your goal were just to bring down a building without concern for the people and other buildings in the area, couldn't you get by with far fewer charges? After all, if you get just one floor of WTC 1 or 2 to give out, the whole thing would come down. Wasn't there a demolition guy in here awhile back who said something to this effect?


Please note that I do not believe that explosives were used on any of the buildings, as there is no evidence for that theory, and if explosives were used there would surely be evidence of it. I also don't subscribe to any of the other 9/11 CTs. I'm just not sure that this particular argument is a good one. Luckily, there are plenty of other arguments that are quite good.
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Old 24th March 2007, 05:54 PM   #4
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After all, if you get just one floor of WTC 1 or 2 to give out, the whole thing would come down.
yes, thats true, but 99% of the CD conspiracy theorists dont think thats the case (after all, if one floor can bring down the towers, a plane could probably take out one floor)

the CTers tend to paint themselves into a corner, saying the towers couldnt possibly have fallen from that little damage, but then claim it wouldnt take much damage to bring them down in a CD
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Old 24th March 2007, 05:56 PM   #5
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Freddy, what you say is true, but presents serious problems for the conspiracists. Most of them posit that the collapses could not have progressed to the ground without the aid of explosives in the lower sections.

A few conspiracists believe that the tops could have crushed the bottoms, but posit that the collapses were initiated by explosives in the impact areas. This would require fewer explosives – except that the conspirators wouldn't know at what the floors the buildings were "supposed" to collapse. So in reality it would require explosives on many floors. These people are then faced with the problems of explaining how the explosives could have been installed invisibly and then survived the impact, blast, and raging fires. They also would have to explain the visible gradual inward bowing of the exterior columns and the lack of seismic and audiovisual evidence of explosions when the buildings begin to collapse.

How do the conspiracists approach all these problems? They don't.
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Old 24th March 2007, 06:15 PM   #6
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Thanks for the replies. I agree that the point I made does not help the CTer's cause at all.
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Old 24th March 2007, 07:57 PM   #7
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We don't know what may have been found at ground zero. FEMA took over, sealed the perimeter, and confiscated cameras. Perhaps there were all sorts of remnants found.

Having said that, there are certainly problems with the notion that conventional explosives were the main source of destruction. One being the near total pulverization of the entire towers into dust. Almost 100% of the non-metallic contents were dustified. Conventional demolitions do not aim to pulverize anything. They sever the support columns, effectively chopping the building into manageable pieces, and it falls to the ground.

Unfavorable as this observation is to the conventional explosives theory, it is devastating to the gravity collapse theory. This is why OCTs must claim that the building contents survived, and went hiding in the basement.

So for different reasons, I agree with Freddy. Conventional explosives do not explain 9/11.
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Old 24th March 2007, 07:59 PM   #8
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Does anybody know anything about this?

http://www.911blogger.com/node/7199

Gravy have you heard anything about this?
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Old 24th March 2007, 08:04 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by tonicblue View Post
Does anybody know anything about this?
http://www.911blogger.com/node/7199
Gravy have you heard anything about this?
Just bomb scares and confusion. That particular incident was reported on in the press at the time, as an example of the confusion, suspicion, and fear that prevailed. False alarm, like the others.
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Old 24th March 2007, 08:17 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by TruthSeeker1234 View Post
We don't know what may have been found at ground zero. FEMA took over, sealed the perimeter, and confiscated cameras. Perhaps there were all sorts of remnants found.
repeating this lie over and over again will never make it true.
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Old 24th March 2007, 08:24 PM   #11
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We don't know what may have been found at ground zero. FEMA took over, sealed the perimeter, and confiscated cameras. Perhaps there were all sorts of remnants found.
but since all the cleanup workers are part of the coverup theyd never tell us what they found
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Old 24th March 2007, 08:25 PM   #12
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Truthseeker doesn't even think they found rubble. He is unwell.
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Old 24th March 2007, 08:27 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Just bomb scares and confusion. That particular incident was reported on in the press at the time, as an example of the confusion, suspicion, and fear that prevailed. False alarm, like the others.
I don't think so. Those men reported seeing a van with a mural of planes crashing into new york painted on it. They arrested the men.
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Old 24th March 2007, 08:30 PM   #14
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In February of 2006, the Norman Y. Mineta International Institute for Surface Transportation Policy Studies (MTI) published their report entitled: Saving City Lifelines: Lessons Learned in the 9-11 Terrorist Attacks.

Quote:
There were continuing moments of alarm. A panel truck with a painting of a plane flying into the World Trade Center was stopped near the temporary command post. It proved to be rented to a group of ethnic Middle Eastern people who did not speak English. Fearing that it might be a truck bomb, the NYPD immediately evacuated the area, called out the bomb squad, and detained the occupants until a thorough search was made. The vehicle was found to be an innocent delivery truck.
(source: MTI Report 02/06)

How can a truck with that painted on it be a simple bomb scare?

Edit: Why did they describe the mural as showing remote controlled planes?

Last edited by tonicblue; 24th March 2007 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 24th March 2007, 08:31 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by tonicblue View Post
I don't think so. Those men reported seeing a van with a mural of planes crashing into new york painted on it. They arrested the men.
Yes, and it was a false alarm. The men were released. There was no mural of planes crashing into New York. U-Haul used to have some trucks painted with the New York skyline and jets flying over.

As I said, you can read about that incident in the contemporary press. I did. Fair enough?
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Old 24th March 2007, 08:42 PM   #16
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The NYPD transmission says the truck exploded.
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Old 24th March 2007, 08:46 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Truthseeker doesn't even think they found rubble. He is unwell.
Gravy, that's the most absurd and easily refuted lie you've come up with. Of course they found rubble. Otherwise, how could we Hunt the Rubble?
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Old 24th March 2007, 08:48 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by tonicblue View Post
The NYPD transmission says the truck exploded.

No transmission in the history of the NYPD has ever been wrong. Ever.

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Old 24th March 2007, 08:49 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by tonicblue View Post
The NYPD transmission says the truck exploded.
Good lord, tonicblue, the passage you just quoted refutes that. The truck didn't explode, which is why, as I will remind you for the third time, the press used this as an example of the confusion of that day.

You keep doing this. Remember your "no fighters scrambled" claim? Please think.
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Old 24th March 2007, 08:51 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
You keep doing this. Remember your "no fighters scrambled" claim?



When was this?

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Old 24th March 2007, 08:52 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Good lord, tonicblue, the passage you just quoted refutes that. The truck didn't explode, which is why, as I will remind you for the third time, the press used this as an example of the confusion of that day.

You keep doing this. Remember your "no fighters scrambled" claim?

Please do not bring this up again unless you are wiling to read the contemporaneous accounts. Is that an unfair request?
Could you link me to these accounts? And also a source for the U-haul vans having a new york skyline.

Why does the NYPD say the van exploded but the Mineta report says it didn't? Why does the Mineta report say the van showed a painting of a plane flying into the world trade centre?
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Old 24th March 2007, 08:55 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by tonicblue View Post
Why does the NYPD say the van exploded but the Mineta report says it didn't?

Why don't you contact them and find out?

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Old 24th March 2007, 08:58 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post


When was this?

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I made no such claim. I simply repeated a pentagon reporters claim that a top official had told him no planes were swcrambled until after the pentagon hit.

The constant changing of NORADs story and Lee Hamilton sdaying he was decieved by them leave me not knowing what to believe.
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Old 24th March 2007, 08:59 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by tonicblue View Post
Could you link me to these accounts? And also a source for the U-haul vans having a new york skyline.

Why does the NYPD say the van exploded but the Mineta report says it didn't? Why does the Mineta report say the van showed a painting of a plane flying into the world trade centre?
In case you missed it the last three times I said it, that's why the press used this story as an example of the confusion of that day. This was the very first 9/11 conspiracy claim I looked into. I had no problem finding the information with Google.
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Old 24th March 2007, 09:01 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
In case you missed it the last three times I said it, that's why the press used this story as an example of the confusion of that day. This was the very first 9/11 conspiracy claim I looked into. I had no problem finding the information with Google.
I can't find it on google. If you aren't going to source your claims that's fine.

You said U-haul had the skyline and jets on their vans. Please give me a source for this.
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Old 24th March 2007, 09:02 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by tonicblue View Post
I made no such claim. I simply repeated a pentagon reporters claim that a top official had told him no planes were swcrambled until after the pentagon hit.

The constant changing of NORADs story and Lee Hamilton sdaying he was decieved by them leave me not knowing what to believe.
Why do you not know what to believe?

I gave you the pilots' names, the base they scrambled from, and the time. I also reminded you that hundreds of thousands, or millions, of people saw the fighters over New York shortly after the second tower was hit.

I asked you why you are unwilling to contact any of these people.

What is your reason for choosing to remain ignorant?
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Old 24th March 2007, 09:04 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by tonicblue View Post
I can't find it on google. If you aren't going to source your claims that's fine.

You said U-haul had the skyline and jets on their vans. Please give me a source for this.
All done searching, then? Amazing.

The source for the information on the vans is me. I live in New York City. These vans were a topic of conversation at the time.
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Old 24th March 2007, 09:05 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by tonicblue View Post
You said U-haul had the skyline and jets on their vans. Please give me a source for this.
Talk to anyone who lived in NYC at the time of 9/11.

Simple.
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Old 24th March 2007, 09:06 PM   #29
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The Mineta report was published in 2006, when all the confusion was resolved. They clearly state the van was painted with an image of the wtc being hit by a plane.
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Old 24th March 2007, 09:08 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by tonicblue View Post
The constant changing of NORADs story and Lee Hamilton sdaying he was decieved by them leave me not knowing what to believe.


NORAD's story didn't "constantly change". This is a common incorrect claim made by Conspiracy Theorists, and it holds no weight.

NORAD released a timeline of their response which was incorrect. At their initial 9/11 Commission Hearings they presented this version of events.

The Commission then got hold of the NEADS and FAA tape recordings, and realised the NORAD account was incorrect. The NORAD account was then amended to reflect what really happened.

For a comprehensive summary of NORAD's involvement in 9/11, you may like to read this thread and this thread.

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Old 24th March 2007, 09:09 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
All done searching, then? Amazing.

The source for the information on the vans is me. I live in New York City. These vans were a topic of conversation at the time.
You have no sources then. Fine.

I have been researching U-haul since you mentioned it. I have done a google image search on their vans and also looked into U-haul history.

I can't find a single van like the ones you claim.
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Old 24th March 2007, 09:17 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by tonicblue View Post
I can't find a single van like the ones you claim.

Well if there's no images via google of a U-Haul van with an image of NYC on it, it can't possibly exist.

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Old 24th March 2007, 09:22 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
Well if there's no images via google of a U-Haul van with an image of NYC on it, it can't possibly exist.

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It's his claim, his burden. I'm just trying to help him out and I haven't finished.

Tomorrow morning I will ring the New York office of U-haul and ask them.
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Old 24th March 2007, 09:23 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by tonicblue View Post
You have no sources then. Fine.

I have been researching U-haul since you mentioned it. I have done a google image search on their vans and also looked into U-haul history.

I can't find a single van like the ones you claim.
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Old 24th March 2007, 09:27 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by tonicblue View Post
It's his claim, his burden. I'm just trying to help him out and I haven't finished.

Tomorrow morning I will ring the New York office of U-haul and ask them.
And if the clerk isn't aware of the design from five years ago? Try ringing the NYPD bomb squad instead. Or just try that Google search. You gave it all of what, three minutes? It's your claim that the published reports are suspicious. You can easily verify them, just as you can easily verify the NORAD scrambles.

I hope you will.
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Old 24th March 2007, 09:28 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Will you address the Mineta report, published in 2006, that clearly states the van had a painting on it of a plane flying into the world trade centre?
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Old 24th March 2007, 09:28 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
The mini-nukes eliminated the evidence.
How dare you deny the contributions of the Satanist* leprechauns? They spent all that time saddle-training the unicorns and eating the sacred Spaghetti only to be disparaged by the likes of you.

You will be among the first up against the wall when the Revolution comes.







* Michael Aquino, not Anton LaVey.
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Old 24th March 2007, 09:31 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
And if the clerk isn't aware of the design from five years ago? Try ringing the NYPD bomb squad instead. Or just try that Google search. You gave it all of what, three minutes? It's your claim that the published reports are suspicious. You can easily verify them, just as you can easily verify the NORAD scrambles.

I hope you will.
The U-haul claim was yours. It is your job to back that claim up. You can't.

Edit: I will email the U-haul headquarters. They should know.

Last edited by tonicblue; 24th March 2007 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 24th March 2007, 09:34 PM   #39
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Gravy have you ever personally seen a U-Haul truck with a NYC skyline mural on it, and an aircraft hitting the towers?

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Old 24th March 2007, 09:40 PM   #40
negativ
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Originally Posted by TruthSeeker1234 View Post
Having said that, there are certainly problems with the notion that conventional explosives were the main source of destruction. One being the near total pulverization of the entire towers into dust. Almost 100% of the non-metallic contents were dustified. Conventional demolitions do not aim to pulverize anything. They sever the support columns, effectively chopping the building into manageable pieces, and it falls to the ground.
This is what a real explosive demolition looks and sounds like. This was a 30-story building constructed in the early 1950s. Please explain to me why nothing remotely close to this was heard at Ground Zero, where buildings orders of magnitude larger are alleged to have been destroyed by explosives.

For bonus points, explain to me why the Landmark Tower in my link was not destroyed by Hush-A-Boom thermite/thermate or perhaps Whisperbang explosives.
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