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Old 26th March 2007, 10:56 AM   #1
Panoply_Prefect
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Pilots for Truth animation - What is it?

Hi!

Does anyone know the context in which the animation that Pilots for Truth use to claim that the FDR of AA77 flew too high and north of CITGO?

Its allegedly made by NTSB, but I have so far not found it on any official website and as I understand it it differs significantly from the offical NTSB analysis of the FDR.


Cheers,
S
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Old 26th March 2007, 11:09 AM   #2
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I think it came from a FOIA request to the NTSB by one of the truthers.
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Old 26th March 2007, 11:19 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Anti-sophist View Post
I think it came from a FOIA request to the NTSB by one of the truthers.
Has he/she (the truther that is) ever posted the contex in which it was recieved (I imagine NTSB must have given them some sort of description of it?)?

/S
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Old 26th March 2007, 11:27 AM   #4
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I have no idea. The only place that information might exist is in the sticky's at pilotsfor911truth. I'm not convinced the NTSB would give them any context. The person filling FOIA requests isn't likely to be doing background research on the whos/whats/whys/whens/wheres.

I'm not even sure the animation is from FOIA, though. You should check their stickies and see what you find.
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Old 26th March 2007, 11:32 AM   #5
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Here is the thread discussing the animation.

http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_Fo...topic=64&st=0&
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Old 26th March 2007, 11:33 AM   #6
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the NTSB releases animations along with many of their investigations, the release of the FDR data was a FOIA request i believe, but i dont think the animation

this page has some pdfs of the 9/11 investigation http://www.ntsb.gov/info/foia_fri.htm
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Old 26th March 2007, 12:03 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by SLOB View Post
Hi!

Does anyone know the context in which the animation that Pilots for Truth use to claim that the FDR of AA77 flew too high and north of CITGO?

Its allegedly made by NTSB, but I have so far not found it on any official website and as I understand it it differs significantly from the offical NTSB analysis of the FDR.

Cheers,
S
PFT say it came from the NTSB. If so they only plotted certain FDR parameters. The terrain below is relatively places, not with actual data. You can see the final approach to the Pentagon is not lined up with the real heading compared to the ground. PFT should know this but they are using the miss registration as a point of woo.

If they were to look at all the data they would realize they can not place the plane's position absolutely.

The fact is the final position of the FDR from the PFT show 1.5 DME from DCA VOR. The final heading or track is 61.2(true track), 70 (mag heading), 58.8 (true heading), 71.4 (mag track); heading is the direction the plane is pointed, track is the path of the plane over the ground. Wind drift is the difference. On 9/11 the wind was from 330 degrees or so, 5 to 10 knots. With simple trig you can see track vs heading.

It appears the animation ground map is rotated the wrong direction to correct for mag to true, for magnetic variation. That makes the final heading like 81.2 degrees true instead of 61.2 degrees true. You can plot all of this accurately or even use the old 60 to 1 rule.

60 to 1 rule works for quick offsets. At 60 miles, one degree off is about 1 mile. So a one degree heading error at 600 feet would be 10 feet off. 60 to 1 and google earth can show how the map is lined up wrong.

For flight 77 the navigation system errors are in the 1000 to 3000 feet range.

I do not know where they got the animation, they said the NTSB.
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Old 26th March 2007, 12:06 PM   #8
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I believe it was recieved by a member called Undertow.

I think I can remember him stating that he had got it back in the LC days.
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Old 26th March 2007, 12:09 PM   #9
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Here is the thread with the FOIA-letter recieved by the english bloke who filed it:

http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_Fo...?showtopic=375

Doesnt really clarify things.

One guy in the first thread claims:

Originally Posted by Undertow@PFT forum
It comes from a piece of software built to read FDR files and recreate the plane performance as it's recorded in the FDR.
As I understand it, this is incorrect, neh?

/S

Last edited by Panoply_Prefect; 26th March 2007 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 26th March 2007, 12:16 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
PFT say it came from the NTSB. If so they only plotted certain FDR parameters. The terrain below is relatively places, not with actual data. You can see the final approach to the Pentagon is not lined up with the real heading compared to the ground. PFT should know this but they are using the miss registration as a point of woo.


This is exactly what I was thinking of. I imagine that since the animation apparently differs from the real NTSB analysis it must have served a different purpose.

However I get a lot of "Look at the NTSB analysis, it is exactly the same as the Pentacon video" from truthers so Im just trying to dig up what I can find... Is there anyone at NTSB that can be contacted, or would they just ignore me?

Cheers,
S
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Old 26th March 2007, 12:18 PM   #11
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Didn't the NTSB animation attempt to correct for true north vs. magnetic North, but corrected in the wrong direction? Thus the wrong heading?
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Old 26th March 2007, 12:29 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by SLOB View Post

This is exactly what I was thinking of. I imagine that since the animation apparently differs from the real NTSB analysis it must have served a different purpose.

However I get a lot of "Look at the NTSB analysis, it is exactly the same as the Pentacon video" from truthers so Im just trying to dig up what I can find... Is there anyone at NTSB that can be contacted, or would they just ignore me?

Cheers,
S
They may talk to you just explain what you saw. I think M is right about the correction in the wrong direction.

The PFT extra stuff on the video, comments exc are junk. JDX/PFT use the FDR but ignore the numbers.

The other unknown is how much data never got recorded due to the impact and sudden electrical failure. I image if your digital camera was just storing a photo and you smashed your camera in a 600 mph brick wall, you may not have that last photo stored. The FDR chip survived, but not the sub systems storing data to it. The FDR recorder continuously stores data serially.
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Old 26th March 2007, 12:42 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by SLOB View Post
Here is the thread with the FOIA-letter recieved by the english bloke who filed it:

http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_Fo...?showtopic=375

Doesnt really clarify things.

One guy in the first thread claims:

Originally Posted by Undertow@PFT forum
It comes from a piece of software built to read FDR files and recreate the plane performance as it's recorded in the FDR.
As I understand it, this is incorrect, neh?

/S
Alot of airlines use Flightscape to recreate incident flights. But the NTSB animation looks sort of "Mickey Mouse" in comparison, having a Cessna-looking instrument panel and no terrain underneath(except the Pentagon).

Its clear that the data was manipulated in no less than 2 ways:
- the magnetic heading was corrected(incorrectly) to True North
- the pressure altitude was adjusted to field elevation at the start of the animation(260 ft was added)

Last edited by apathoid; 26th March 2007 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 26th March 2007, 01:33 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by apathoid View Post
Its clear that the data was manipulated in no less than 2 ways:
- the magnetic heading was corrected(incorrectly) to True North
- the pressure altitude was adjusted to field elevation at the start of the animation(260 ft was added)
Let's not forget a 3-d pentagon was built into the animation. That certainly didn't come from the data.

The notion that the animation is automagically created from the data w/o human intervention is a lie. The notion that the FDR agrees with the north-of-the-citgo flight path is a lie. The notion that the FDR data agrees with the animation is a lie.

They've found a human error in the construction of the animation and claimed, wrongly, that no humans took part in this construction, therefore they wrongly conclude the data says it must be so, and therefore they wrongly conclude that the NTSB says it must have gone north of the CITGO.

All of this is solved, trivially, by looking at the data and realizing that the data and the animation do not match. The realization that a human screwed up solves the conundrum.
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Old 26th March 2007, 02:02 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Anti-sophist View Post
All of this is solved, trivially, by looking at the data and realizing that the data and the animation do not match. The realization that a human screwed up solves the conundrum.
I think that the main problem is that most people doesnt understand the data. A video however, is plain and simple and easy to grasp for anyone. Which is why its unfortunate this animation has no history.

/S
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Old 26th March 2007, 02:41 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by JAStewart View Post
I believe it was recieved by a member called Undertow.

I think I can remember him stating that he had got it back in the LC days.
Ahhhh Undertow.... a cocky little sod who turned up on AS's FDR thread cocksure and mouthy, and then left many pages later without nery a word.

'Truther' MO, talk the talk, walk the walk, then fold when it's obvious they are fake.

I still think he/she owes AS a substantial apology..... but I'm realistic enough to know that aint gonna happen any time soon.
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Old 12th May 2007, 02:23 PM   #17
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Hallo, I'm the owner of an italian site dedicated to 9/11 (no conspiracy theories...) and member of an italian team of debunkers.

We got some news about NTSB animations released to PFT: they came really from NTSB but are only "working copy" not intended for official use.
More, NTSB has released an United 93 animation to PFT.

We made an english note about this question, with link to NTSB note referrering to both animations.

I can't post the link, due to limits imposed by this forum to newbie, try to get our article searching google for "undicisettembre" + "paolo attivissimo" + "Flight 77 Animation is Not Official "

Hoping these informations are usefull for you,
regards

John
webmaster of italian site Crono911
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Old 12th May 2007, 02:28 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by JohnCrono View Post
Hallo, I'm the owner of an italian site dedicated to 9/11 (no conspiracy theories...) and member of an italian team of debunkers.

We got some news about NTSB animations released to PFT: they came really from NTSB but are only "working copy" not intended for official use.
More, NTSB has released an United 93 animation to PFT.

We made an english note about this question, with link to NTSB note referrering to both animations.

I can't post the link, due to limits imposed by this forum to newbie, try to get our article searching google for "undicisettembre" + "paolo attivissimo" + "Flight 77 Animation is Not Official "

Hoping these informations are usefull for you,
regards

John
webmaster of italian site Crono911
http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/
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Old 12th May 2007, 02:28 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by JohnCrono View Post
I can't post the link, due to limits imposed by this forum to newbie, try to get our article searching google for "undicisettembre" + "paolo attivissimo" + "Flight 77 Animation is Not Official "

Hoping these informations are usefull for you,
regards

John
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Welcome John, I'll post the link for you: http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/

Scroll down for the English version.

eta: damn A W Smith...
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Old 12th May 2007, 02:34 PM   #20
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Fantastic site btw John - the article about oxygen cutting is very informative.
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Old 12th May 2007, 02:43 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by JohnCrono View Post
Hallo, I'm the owner of an italian site dedicated to 9/11 (no conspiracy theories...) and member of an italian team of debunkers.

We got some news about NTSB animations released to PFT: they came really from NTSB but are only "working copy" not intended for official use.
More, NTSB has released an United 93 animation to PFT.

We made an english note about this question, with link to NTSB note referrering to both animations.

I can't post the link, due to limits imposed by this forum to newbie, try to get our article searching google for "undicisettembre" + "paolo attivissimo" + "Flight 77 Animation is Not Official "

Hoping these informations are usefull for you,
regards

John
webmaster of italian site Crono911

Welcome to the forum John. Great site you have there, and thanks for the info on the animation.
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Old 12th May 2007, 02:47 PM   #22
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Welcome to the forum John.

Great site, and great article.

None of their secrecy or failure to release their raw data surprises us here. PFT and in particular JDX has a long history of such behaviour. It is a shame really, but typical of members of the 9/11 truth movement.

I suspect they do not release anything until they have finished with it, because they know people here would take the data etc...and debunk it, or would point ou tflaws in their interpretation. The truthers do not really care about the REAL truth, they only care about manipulating evidence to fit their storyline and agenda, namely that the government carried out 9/11. I don't doubt that they would doctor data in order to fit their agenda...not in the slightest.

TAM
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Old 12th May 2007, 03:22 PM   #23
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of course doesnt take long for balsamo to chime in with his smug self in the comments section.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?bl...69755405391091
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Old 12th May 2007, 04:41 PM   #24
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"All your blogs are screenshot saved...."

Yours too Robbie...

He is a piece of work, isn't he?

At least he'll never be able to get his medical re-certification with the FAA because we don't need looneys flying us around...
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Old 13th May 2007, 12:09 AM   #25
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I'd just like to add that after starting this thread I filed a FOIA for the AA77 animation, which was granted a couple of weeks ago. I know NTSB doesn't use the fastest of deliveriemethods, but I'll guess it will arrive here in Sweden the next couple of weeks or so.

Any findings from this FOIA will be posted here at Jref.

Cheers,
SLOB
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Old 13th May 2007, 01:22 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by SLOB View Post
I'd just like to add that after starting this thread I filed a FOIA for the AA77 animation, which was granted a couple of weeks ago. I know NTSB doesn't use the fastest of deliveriemethods, but I'll guess it will arrive here in Sweden the next couple of weeks or so.

Any findings from this FOIA will be posted here at Jref.

Cheers,
SLOB
Outstanding
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Old 13th May 2007, 02:10 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by JohnCrono View Post
Hallo, I'm the owner of an italian site dedicated to 9/11 (no conspiracy theories...) and member of an italian team of debunkers.

We got some news about NTSB animations released to PFT: they came really from NTSB but are only "working copy" not intended for official use.
More, NTSB has released an United 93 animation to PFT.

We made an english note about this question, with link to NTSB note referrering to both animations.

I can't post the link, due to limits imposed by this forum to newbie, try to get our article searching google for "undicisettembre" + "paolo attivissimo" + "Flight 77 Animation is Not Official "

Hoping these informations are usefull for you,
regards

John
webmaster of italian site Crono911
Hi there John,

I actually stumbled onto your website a couple of months ago and was impressed enough to bookmark it.

But I do wonder, just how prevalent are September 11th conspiracy theories there in Italy? Is it a fringe movement, mainstream, widespread but discrete? I'm just curious is all.
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Old 13th May 2007, 05:13 AM   #28
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John(Gianni),

And another big WELCOME! I had also run across your site a while back and was truly impressed. Good site, good articles.

Please stay around.... we're always curious over here, so please don't misconstrue our questions as anything other than that - curiosity.

When you say you own a site.... Is it your site and Paolo's blog, or are you Paolo?

Why the perceived need for an anti-CT site in Italy? Is there a large faction of CT believers out there?

I know Italy has the full spectrum of political beliefs. Do you get the same mixture as we do in America? Partial anti-establishment left, partially bigoted right?

Are you a one-man(woman) effort? Or is there a group/organization behind the site?

Origins? Was there a group of debunkers/skeptics prior to this "debate" or were you inspired by the 9/11 CT inflammation?

I'm particularly fond of this in your English intro:

Quote:
We have no gadgets, books or DVDs to sell and no banner adverts. We don't earn any money from the sale of any books or DVDs mentioned here. Everything you find here is provided for free as long as you link back to the source and comply with copyright. Your comments are welcome in Italian and English.


ETA: I just remembered why I first visited your site. (Someone here also once linked to the article.) I was googling "Whistleblower" with other combinations, and was surprised to find one of the links had an Italian name (of Italian-Jewish extraction), so went to it and was surprised to find it one of the best articles on the subject of the blueprints.
http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/...lueprints.html
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Old 13th May 2007, 07:00 AM   #29
T.A.M.
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Originally Posted by SLOB View Post
I'd just like to add that after starting this thread I filed a FOIA for the AA77 animation, which was granted a couple of weeks ago. I know NTSB doesn't use the fastest of deliveriemethods, but I'll guess it will arrive here in Sweden the next couple of weeks or so.

Any findings from this FOIA will be posted here at Jref.

Cheers,
SLOB
well done....

TAM
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Old 13th May 2007, 02:19 PM   #30
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Rob is fighting the truth overseas right now:
Quote:
acaguy2001 dice... Once again i would like to thank you for the added publicity from this blog and now more from JREF. Its a nice supplement to our already high amount of hits we been getting. Our orders for our DVD to Italy have increased too. Maybe due to this blog? Dunno. But its welcomed as we are trying to raise funds for a Pilots For 9/11 Truth Conference coming up. Thanks again!

Cheers!
Rob
13/5/07 20:11
First Dylan tells us LC is about money, now JDX does the slip and it is all about money so he can do the hotel, talk at conference, and sell more DVD from pilots for truth, yet another ironically named truth group. A very small group at that.

He always attacks when someone presents some questions or old fashion facts and evidence to expose his errors. I would not doubt he has information debunking all his claims about 9/11, or the lack of claims. He likes to say he did not say flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon.

Up to 40 pilots or people who fly, PFT is growing by hugh numbers, I remember when there were only 20 or 30 pilots who have no facts or evidence to support what ever they support about 9/11.

What is their goal?
Quote:
We do not offer theory or point blame.


Oh, that is a good goal. Kind of like nothing is our goal at PFT. Right?

Quote:
We stand with the Scholars and Veterans for Truth


Does this mean he beleives in beam weapons and thermite? Was a beam weapon used on the Pentagon, or was it just thermite? And are these groups members in each other groups? Kind of like counting some of the members of each cult a few times extra?

Okay I found the goal they want someone else to do.
Quote:
we ask for a new independent investigation into the events of 9/11
PFT wants someone else to do an investigation after JDX tells all he has the experts to do the job. But then he is not after the turth he is after
Quote:
...orders for our DVD
! http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/...mation-is.html

The truth is out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote:
acaguy2001 dice... By the way.. im italian..

Balsamo.. look it up.
13/5/07 23:18
But JDX says -
Quote:
Our sales of our DVD's futher our research. People like JREF have donation buttons but offer nothing in return. Those people are profiting off the lives lost and victims. We are funding ourselves to get answers since the govt squandered away our tax dollars on a bogus investigation into 9/11 and is now using it to take away our freedoms and kill 100's of thousands around the world (soon to be in the millions). Im wondering what your motivation is for defending that.
Why not protest the war instead of making up lies about 9/11. So telling someone who makes up lies about 9/11 he is a liar, makes you a defender of all the bad things going on in the world? There is strawman who needs to visit the wizard, now.

Last edited by beachnut; 13th May 2007 at 02:42 PM. Reason: to get at the truth
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Old 14th May 2007, 06:07 PM   #31
beachnut
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Originally Posted by JohnCrono View Post
Hallo, I'm the owner of an italian site dedicated to 9/11 (no conspiracy theories...) and member of an italian team of debunkers.

We got some news about NTSB animations released to PFT: they came really from NTSB but are only "working copy" not intended for official use.
More, NTSB has released an United 93 animation to PFT.

We made an english note about this question, with link to NTSB note referrering to both animations.

I can't post the link, due to limits imposed by this forum to newbie, try to get our article searching google for "undicisettembre" + "paolo attivissimo" + "Flight 77 Animation is Not Official "

Hoping these informations are usefull for you,
regards

John
webmaster of italian site Crono911
My goodness, Rob is going nuts on you. He use to post some as JDX, or JohndoeX. He is very paranoid about things, and loves to ban people who watch his videos and at his forum.

http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/...mation-is.html
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Old 15th May 2007, 12:11 AM   #32
ref
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Welcome, John. Great site you have there
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Old 16th May 2007, 12:21 PM   #33
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Hi everybody, and excuse me for the delay with wich I answer to your questions. I've a lot of things to do and the time is always too much little!!!

My real name is John, I was born in New York but I live and work in Italy.
I've studied in Italy too, so forgive my poor english.

Paolo Attivissimo is a friend of mine, we work together on Undicisettembre site and many other things. We've just provided italian adaptation of "Debunking 9/11 Myths" , printed by an italian editor (we don't take a cent from selling revenues).

We have a lot of CT here in Italy, mixed with spreading anti-american feelings.

Italian CT found their easy way to influence a lot of italian people, because most of official data, facts, reports, articles etc. are in english language, so people don't know what really happened.
9/11 Commission Report is in english, debunking site are in english, and so on.

When I saw on TV an italian journalist in true difficult against a guy who was asserting that there were no airplane wreckage into Pentagon, I said to myself: I've to do something, to explain factual data in italian.

So I wrote a 200 page free pdf document based on 9/11 Commission Report and many other fonts, and I created Crono911 site.

Paolo Attivissimo was doing the same kind of work, so we met and became friends.

The job is now much more difficult, for CT :-)

That's Crono911's history !

:-)

btw I've filed a FOIA request too, for both United 93 and Flight 77 animations, and for all the FDR data they have.
There're too much incongruences between various CSV files I downloaded from different sources, and now I want to be sure to keep an original copy.

Last edited by JohnCrono; 16th May 2007 at 12:24 PM. Reason: grammar error
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Old 16th May 2007, 02:24 PM   #34
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Welcome to the site John.
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The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices to be only found in the minds of men. Prejudices and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all its own.--Rod Serling
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Old 17th May 2007, 11:52 PM   #35
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Rob is still kicking. Thought he had stopped posting but he is still manufacturing the truth and making the rounds on the truther circuit. I heard him on a web cast with another pilot who can not fly a simulator into a building. I was wrong there are a few people, seems like challenged pilots from PFT, who cannot fly a perfectly good airplane into a building. The wonder pilots at PFT, can not even hit a building in a simulator. They talk of the evil dutch roll in their modern jet. Bet they would sling in engine in the old jets I flew. A professional pilot how lets dutch roll stop him from hitting his target is not very good. The terrorist are better pilots than PFT at hitting buildings. I could damp the dutch roll as it began without the rudder damper. They must not be smart enough to turn on the rudder damper. Guess the terrorist studied harder than our cheap PFT, too cheap to rent a real 757/767 sim. The PFT can not fly, they even tell you on the web cast! A kid off the street can, why are these pilots so challenged in flying or are they just being deceitful.

The 757/767 are easy to fly, but our PFT have problems. Kids off the street have been able to do it for me in a sim. But why believe an old over the hill dolt such as me. There was another pilot who put rookies in a sim and hit the pentagon with no formal training. Sorry Rob, your best efforts come up short of the truth. Pick up your stray straw and visit the wizard soon, he is running a special. Thank you for the kind words. You still seem to be popeye on the whole 9/11 thing.

Quote:
acaguy2001 dice...
ace aka beechnut.. you are totally incoherent. Still waiting for your email for debate old timer. Are you scared to debate us on a recorded interview FACE TO FACE? I know.. you think you'll get tripped up and we'll use it for sound bites. Why are we so confident to debate you in person, yet you make excuse to not debate us and spend all your time behind your screen.. day after day.. posting inaccurate claims? If you ever spoke to and FDR expert. a real one.. you wouldnt be saying what you are saying... lol.. But anytime you want to debate face to face old timer.. dont be too scared. Just email us.. we'll work out the details.

You are a waste of space beechnut. Real military officers in our organization who get on recorded lines know it. Salute to your superiors old timer!

All you got are blogs on the net. We reach thousands.. millions per day. You're a joke. Bloggin with people you think are "dolts" day after day. Who is the real Dolt? Get a life dude!

I expect more from a military man. It is clear you have zero self respect.

You get zero respect. You probably have an agenda. Ever been to Bohemian Grove? Gotta love the Owl. And they call us the dolts..

Till next time... enjoy your shame and defending war criminals.
18/5/07 02:38
http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/2007/05/pilots-for-truth-flight-77-animation-is.html

He is still pushing the weak story -
Quote:
Rob is posting over in Italy - We didnt plot the animation of the plane stopping over Route 27 one second prior to impact. The NTSB did. They refuse to retract, correct any 'possible errors' or answer any questions posed from professional pilots, mechanics, Accident Investigators et al.
Quote:

This is not a scietific theory being offered. Theory gets peer reviewed.

We show facts -

-It is fact that the aircraft is too high over Highway 27, 1 second prior to the pentagon wall, as plotted by the NTSB.

-If the aircraft was actually at 50 feet above the ground, It is fact that the NTSB animation shows vertical speed is too great (4600+ fpm) to be level with the pentagon lawn as seen in the DoD 5 frames video which has a slope of less than 600 fpm.


-It is fact the NTSB plotted the flight path stopping 780 feet from the pentagon wall.

-It is fact the NTSB used radar, ATC transcripts and the FDR to plot the path.

-It is fact they plotted the animation flight path north of the citgo gas station and Two Pentagon Police Officer coorboate the position (one betting his life on it).

-It is fact that there are no system indications of impact with any object.

-It is fact that the heading in the csv file and animation has been altered by more than 20 degrees (click the links we provided, all the work is there. I can only provide the link, i cannot come to your computer and place your finger on the mouse).
I suppose there are people dumb enough to buy his DVD.

He is still basing his whole ideas on a video produce by the NTSB now call a "working copy" as he is trying to sell DVDs of a working copy. He is basing his junk on nothing. Then you have him using Pentagon Police telling a story different than the one they did in 2001. Just the same old stuff. Pilot for Truth? What a joke.

Let me see if the web page is there? http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/ Still there. They have John Lear, who thinks aliens are taking over and space ships come by all the time. Why would you have a nut case sign a news release? Rob is still out there, paranoid as ever. Actually in his above post, I can find no facts or evidence to support his conclusion.

Rob sums it up best, his paranoia is showing.
Quote:
You get zero respect. You probably have an agenda. Ever been to Bohemian Grove? Gotta love the Owl. And they call us the dolts..
You decide, I already know I am over the hill, next comes thru the woods. But have I ever been to Bohemian Grove? Was that the place in the Indian Ocean at 7 degrees south were I picked up over 100 lobsters in a few nights, by hand. That Bohemian Grove, or was that a Coconut Grove? Butter and lemon please.

I am sorry if I call Rob a dolt, but he is the one using LT's stuff. CIT, they are not dolts, they are a crack research team!

Last edited by beachnut; 18th May 2007 at 12:03 AM. Reason: dolting
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Old 18th May 2007, 12:23 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by JohnCrono View Post
.

Italian CT found their easy way to influence a lot of italian people, because most of official data, facts, reports, articles etc. are in english language, so people don't know what really happened.
9/11 Commission Report is in english, debunking site are in english, and so on.

When I saw on TV an italian journalist in true difficult against a guy who was asserting that there were no airplane wreckage into Pentagon, I said to myself: I've to do something, to explain factual data in italian.

So I wrote a 200 page free pdf document based on 9/11 Commission Report and many other fonts, and I created Crono911 site.

Someone should definitely do the same thing in Spanish. Guys like William Rodriguez have the Spanish speaking world as their playground. Spanish speking people here, anyone?
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Old 18th May 2007, 12:23 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Rob is still kicking. Thought he had stopped posting but he is still manufacturing the truth and making the rounds on the truther circuit. I heard him on a web cast with another pilot who can not fly a simulator into a building. I was wrong there are a few people, seems like challenged pilots from PFT, who cannot fly a perfectly good airplane into a building. The wonder pilots at PFT, can not even hit a building in a simulator. They talk of the evil dutch roll in their modern jet. Bet they would sling in engine in the old jets I flew. A professional pilot how lets dutch roll stop him from hitting his target is not very good. The terrorist are better pilots than PFT at hitting buildings. I could damp the dutch roll as it began without the rudder damper. They must not be smart enough to turn on the rudder damper. Guess the terrorist studied harder than our cheap PFT, too cheap to rent a real 757/767 sim. The PFT can not fly, they even tell you on the web cast! A kid off the street can, why are these pilots so challenged in flying or are they just being deceitful.

Wait a minute, they actually tried hitting a building in a sim, but couldn't? Isn't that a bit like advertising their own ineptitude at flying, especially when there exists a video of an amateur doing exactly what Hani did 3 out of 3 times?

Nevermind, we're talking about John "Foot In Mouth" D'oh here.....the same pilot who didn't know if AA's 767s were fitted with ACARS(you have to be an airline pilot/avionics tech to truly appreciate the idiocy of that inquiry), the same pilot who thinks planes are packed on Tuesday mornings, the same pilot who can't differentiate between heading and track angle, the same pilot who can't figure actual DME range using slant range and altitude, and the same pilot who now apparently doesn't know that airliners have yaw dampers installed which all but eliminate dutch roll......sheesh.
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Old 18th May 2007, 03:46 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by apathoid View Post
Wait a minute, they actually tried hitting a building in a sim, but couldn't? Isn't that a bit like advertising their own ineptitude at flying, especially when there exists a video of an amateur doing exactly what Hani did 3 out of 3 times?

Nevermind, we're talking about John "Foot In Mouth" D'oh here.....the same pilot who didn't know if AA's 767s were fitted with ACARS(you have to be an airline pilot/avionics tech to truly appreciate the idiocy of that inquiry), the same pilot who thinks planes are packed on Tuesday mornings, the same pilot who can't differentiate between heading and track angle, the same pilot who can't figure actual DME range using slant range and altitude, and the same pilot who now apparently doesn't know that airliners have yaw dampers installed which all but eliminate dutch roll......sheesh.
They are on the record talking about it. They missed 10 times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm58cPH8L78&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Epilots for911truth%2Eorg%2F

The terrorist had tried to go faster sooner on 9/11 they may of had problems controlling the planes. But they lined up on the target and then pushed up the throttles. They only exceeded 350 KIAS for 20 or 30 seconds.

The PFT expert pilots must of sped up too early to control the planes, or the 737 sim is not very good, the pilots suck, or a 737 does not have as much stability as does 757/767.

Do you have the reference for the guy that fly people in a sim and hit time after time.
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Old 18th May 2007, 11:01 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
They are on the record talking about it. They missed 10 times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm58cPH8L78&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Epilots for911truth%2Eorg%2F

The terrorist had tried to go faster sooner on 9/11 they may of had problems controlling the planes. But they lined up on the target and then pushed up the throttles. They only exceeded 350 KIAS for 20 or 30 seconds.

The PFT expert pilots must of sped up too early to control the planes, or the 737 sim is not very good, the pilots suck, or a 737 does not have as much stability as does 757/767.

Do you have the reference for the guy that fly people in a sim and hit time after time.
http://video.google.nl/videoplay?doc...=zembla#27m40s


It would appear that the plane being used is a 747-400, which obviously isn't anywhere near as nimble as the 757 - yet the National Aerospace Lab gentlemen(who is not a pilot) had no problems hitting the Pentagon wall 3 times in a row performing roughly the same 330 degree turn and descent.....
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Old 24th May 2007, 06:02 AM   #40
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Ok, so I recieved my FOIA. It contained two CDs and one DVD designated:

data-CD "AA77 Records listen in letter (except animation)"

Containing several PDFs:

AAL77_fdr.pdf
AAL77_tabular.csv
ATC Report--AA77.pdf
autopilot_AA77&UA93-study.pdf
Flight Path Study--AA77.pdf
Recorded Radar Data Study--all four aircraft.pdf


data-CD "All 9-11 records listed in letter (except animation)"

Containing several pdfs and a folder named "UA93-FDR-Tabular_files":

AAL77_fdr.pdf
AAL77_tabular.csv
ATC Report--AA11.pdf
ATC Report--AA77.pdf
ATC Report--UA175.pdf
ATC Report--UA93.pdf
autopilot_AA77&UA93-study.pdf
Debris Trajectory Study--UA175.pdf
Flight Path Study--AA11.pdf
Flight Path Study--AA77.pdf
Flight Path Study--UA175.pdf
Flight Path Study--UA93.pdf
Radar Data Impact Speed Study--AA11, UA175.pdf
Recorded Radar Data Study--all four aircraft.pdf
UAL93FDR.pdf
Video Data Impact Speed Study--UA175.pdf


data-DVD "AAL-77 Animation with ATC text"

Containing the animation.


and a letter containing the following:

"Regarding the American Airlines Flight 77 animation, the Safety Board recently realized that the time provided on this animation lists an incorrect annotation. Instead of "EDT (Eastern Daylight Time)," the time provided on the animation should say, "UTC (Universal Coordinated Time)." In spite of this error, the Safety Board has not created a new record with the correct time, as this working copy was never used for an official purpose; instead, the Safety Board is notifiying all recipients of this animation that the record includes an erroneous annotation".

I have no idea if all of this is previously known online, but I'll try to make everything available asap (I'll assume it's legal to do so, since its been officially released via FOIA, not to mention that PfT uses the animation as a sellingpoint for their DVD... If anyone thinks otherwise, let me know).

Cheers,
SLOB

Last edited by Panoply_Prefect; 24th May 2007 at 06:17 AM.
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