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#1 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,075
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Pilots for Truth animation - What is it?
Hi!
Does anyone know the context in which the animation that Pilots for Truth use to claim that the FDR of AA77 flew too high and north of CITGO? Its allegedly made by NTSB, but I have so far not found it on any official website and as I understand it it differs significantly from the offical NTSB analysis of the FDR. Cheers, S |
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#2 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,542
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I think it came from a FOIA request to the NTSB by one of the truthers.
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A witty saying proves nothing. -Voltaire |
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#3 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Posts: 1,075
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#4 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,542
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I have no idea. The only place that information might exist is in the sticky's at pilotsfor911truth. I'm not convinced the NTSB would give them any context. The person filling FOIA requests isn't likely to be doing background research on the whos/whats/whys/whens/wheres.
I'm not even sure the animation is from FOIA, though. You should check their stickies and see what you find. |
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#5 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,685
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__________________
9/11 Guide homepage Conspiracy theories abound and I believe firmly that all of them are without merit. - Chief Daniel Nigro |
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#6 |
Drunken Shikigami
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 7,474
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the NTSB releases animations along with many of their investigations, the release of the FDR data was a FOIA request i believe, but i dont think the animation
this page has some pdfs of the 9/11 investigation http://www.ntsb.gov/info/foia_fri.htm |
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I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -Albert Einstein |
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#7 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,072
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PFT say it came from the NTSB. If so they only plotted certain FDR parameters. The terrain below is relatively places, not with actual data. You can see the final approach to the Pentagon is not lined up with the real heading compared to the ground. PFT should know this but they are using the miss registration as a point of woo.
If they were to look at all the data they would realize they can not place the plane's position absolutely. The fact is the final position of the FDR from the PFT show 1.5 DME from DCA VOR. The final heading or track is 61.2(true track), 70 (mag heading), 58.8 (true heading), 71.4 (mag track); heading is the direction the plane is pointed, track is the path of the plane over the ground. Wind drift is the difference. On 9/11 the wind was from 330 degrees or so, 5 to 10 knots. With simple trig you can see track vs heading. It appears the animation ground map is rotated the wrong direction to correct for mag to true, for magnetic variation. That makes the final heading like 81.2 degrees true instead of 61.2 degrees true. You can plot all of this accurately or even use the old 60 to 1 rule. 60 to 1 rule works for quick offsets. At 60 miles, one degree off is about 1 mile. So a one degree heading error at 600 feet would be 10 feet off. 60 to 1 and google earth can show how the map is lined up wrong. For flight 77 the navigation system errors are in the 1000 to 3000 feet range. I do not know where they got the animation, they said the NTSB. |
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#8 |
Graduate Poster
Tagger
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,521
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I believe it was recieved by a member called Undertow.
I think I can remember him stating that he had got it back in the LC days. |
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#9 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,075
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Here is the thread with the FOIA-letter recieved by the english bloke who filed it:
http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_Fo...?showtopic=375 Doesnt really clarify things. One guy in the first thread claims:
Originally Posted by Undertow@PFT forum
/S |
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#10 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,075
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This is exactly what I was thinking of. I imagine that since the animation apparently differs from the real NTSB analysis it must have served a different purpose. However I get a lot of "Look at the NTSB analysis, it is exactly the same as the Pentacon video" from truthers so Im just trying to dig up what I can find... Is there anyone at NTSB that can be contacted, or would they just ignore me? Cheers, S |
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#11 |
NWO Janitor
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,517
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Didn't the NTSB animation attempt to correct for true north vs. magnetic North, but corrected in the wrong direction? Thus the wrong heading?
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#12 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,072
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They may talk to you just explain what you saw. I think M is right about the correction in the wrong direction.
The PFT extra stuff on the video, comments exc are junk. JDX/PFT use the FDR but ignore the numbers. The other unknown is how much data never got recorded due to the impact and sudden electrical failure. I image if your digital camera was just storing a photo and you smashed your camera in a 600 mph brick wall, you may not have that last photo stored. The FDR chip survived, but not the sub systems storing data to it. The FDR recorder continuously stores data serially. |
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#13 |
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,918
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Alot of airlines use Flightscape to recreate incident flights. But the NTSB animation looks sort of "Mickey Mouse" in comparison, having a Cessna-looking instrument panel and no terrain underneath(except the Pentagon).
Its clear that the data was manipulated in no less than 2 ways: - the magnetic heading was corrected(incorrectly) to True North - the pressure altitude was adjusted to field elevation at the start of the animation(260 ft was added) |
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#14 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,542
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Let's not forget a 3-d pentagon was built into the animation. That certainly didn't come from the data.
The notion that the animation is automagically created from the data w/o human intervention is a lie. The notion that the FDR agrees with the north-of-the-citgo flight path is a lie. The notion that the FDR data agrees with the animation is a lie. They've found a human error in the construction of the animation and claimed, wrongly, that no humans took part in this construction, therefore they wrongly conclude the data says it must be so, and therefore they wrongly conclude that the NTSB says it must have gone north of the CITGO. All of this is solved, trivially, by looking at the data and realizing that the data and the animation do not match. The realization that a human screwed up solves the conundrum. |
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A witty saying proves nothing. -Voltaire |
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#15 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Posts: 1,075
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#16 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 8,154
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Ahhhh Undertow.... a cocky little sod who turned up on AS's FDR thread cocksure and mouthy, and then left many pages later without nery a word.
'Truther' MO, talk the talk, walk the walk, then fold when it's obvious they are fake. I still think he/she owes AS a substantial apology..... but I'm realistic enough to know that aint gonna happen any time soon. |
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#17 |
New Blood
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6
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Hallo, I'm the owner of an italian site dedicated to 9/11 (no conspiracy theories...) and member of an italian team of debunkers.
We got some news about NTSB animations released to PFT: they came really from NTSB but are only "working copy" not intended for official use. More, NTSB has released an United 93 animation to PFT. We made an english note about this question, with link to NTSB note referrering to both animations. I can't post the link, due to limits imposed by this forum to newbie, try to get our article searching google for "undicisettembre" + "paolo attivissimo" + "Flight 77 Animation is Not Official " Hoping these informations are usefull for you, regards John webmaster of italian site Crono911 |
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#18 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,032
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__________________
911 resource site by Mark Roberts http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance. Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane? Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude. |
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#19 |
NWO Master Conspirator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
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Welcome John, I'll post the link for you: http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/
Scroll down for the English version. eta: damn A W Smith... ![]() |
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#20 |
NWO Master Conspirator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
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Fantastic site btw John - the article about oxygen cutting is very informative.
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#21 |
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,918
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#22 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
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Welcome to the forum John.
Great site, and great article. None of their secrecy or failure to release their raw data surprises us here. PFT and in particular JDX has a long history of such behaviour. It is a shame really, but typical of members of the 9/11 truth movement. I suspect they do not release anything until they have finished with it, because they know people here would take the data etc...and debunk it, or would point ou tflaws in their interpretation. The truthers do not really care about the REAL truth, they only care about manipulating evidence to fit their storyline and agenda, namely that the government carried out 9/11. I don't doubt that they would doctor data in order to fit their agenda...not in the slightest. TAM ![]() |
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#23 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,032
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of course doesnt take long for balsamo to chime in with his smug self in the comments section.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?bl...69755405391091 |
__________________
911 resource site by Mark Roberts http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance. Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane? Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude. |
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#24 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,466
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"All your blogs are screenshot saved...."
Yours too Robbie... He is a piece of work, isn't he? At least he'll never be able to get his medical re-certification with the FAA because we don't need looneys flying us around... |
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#25 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,075
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I'd just like to add that after starting this thread I filed a FOIA for the AA77 animation, which was granted a couple of weeks ago. I know NTSB doesn't use the fastest of deliveriemethods, but I'll guess it will arrive here in Sweden the next couple of weeks or so.
Any findings from this FOIA will be posted here at Jref. Cheers, SLOB |
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#26 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,072
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#27 |
Misanthrope of the Mountains
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 24,122
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Hi there John,
I actually stumbled onto your website a couple of months ago and was impressed enough to bookmark it. But I do wonder, just how prevalent are September 11th conspiracy theories there in Italy? Is it a fringe movement, mainstream, widespread but discrete? I'm just curious is all. |
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"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
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#28 |
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
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John(Gianni),
And another big WELCOME! I had also run across your site a while back and was truly impressed. Good site, good articles. Please stay around.... we're always curious over here, so please don't misconstrue our questions as anything other than that - curiosity. When you say you own a site.... Is it your site and Paolo's blog, or are you Paolo? Why the perceived need for an anti-CT site in Italy? Is there a large faction of CT believers out there? I know Italy has the full spectrum of political beliefs. Do you get the same mixture as we do in America? Partial anti-establishment left, partially bigoted right? Are you a one-man(woman) effort? Or is there a group/organization behind the site? Origins? Was there a group of debunkers/skeptics prior to this "debate" or were you inspired by the 9/11 CT inflammation? I'm particularly fond of this in your English intro:
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ETA: I just remembered why I first visited your site. (Someone here also once linked to the article.) I was googling "Whistleblower" with other combinations, and was surprised to find one of the links had an Italian name (of Italian-Jewish extraction), so went to it and was surprised to find it one of the best articles on the subject of the blueprints. http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/...lueprints.html |
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Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
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#29 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
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#30 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,072
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Rob is fighting the truth overseas right now:
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He always attacks when someone presents some questions or old fashion facts and evidence to expose his errors. I would not doubt he has information debunking all his claims about 9/11, or the lack of claims. He likes to say he did not say flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon. Up to 40 pilots or people who fly, PFT is growing by hugh numbers, I remember when there were only 20 or 30 pilots who have no facts or evidence to support what ever they support about 9/11. What is their goal?
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Oh, that is a good goal. Kind of like nothing is our goal at PFT. Right?
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Does this mean he beleives in beam weapons and thermite? Was a beam weapon used on the Pentagon, or was it just thermite? And are these groups members in each other groups? Kind of like counting some of the members of each cult a few times extra? Okay I found the goal they want someone else to do.
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The truth is out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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#31 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,072
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My goodness, Rob is going nuts on you. He use to post some as JDX, or JohndoeX. He is very paranoid about things, and loves to ban people who watch his videos and at his forum.
http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/...mation-is.html |
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#32 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,685
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Welcome, John. Great site you have there
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9/11 Guide homepage Conspiracy theories abound and I believe firmly that all of them are without merit. - Chief Daniel Nigro |
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#33 |
New Blood
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6
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Hi everybody, and excuse me for the delay with wich I answer to your questions. I've a lot of things to do and the time is always too much little!!!
My real name is John, I was born in New York but I live and work in Italy. I've studied in Italy too, so forgive my poor english. Paolo Attivissimo is a friend of mine, we work together on Undicisettembre site and many other things. We've just provided italian adaptation of "Debunking 9/11 Myths" , printed by an italian editor (we don't take a cent from selling revenues). We have a lot of CT here in Italy, mixed with spreading anti-american feelings. Italian CT found their easy way to influence a lot of italian people, because most of official data, facts, reports, articles etc. are in english language, so people don't know what really happened. 9/11 Commission Report is in english, debunking site are in english, and so on. When I saw on TV an italian journalist in true difficult against a guy who was asserting that there were no airplane wreckage into Pentagon, I said to myself: I've to do something, to explain factual data in italian. So I wrote a 200 page free pdf document based on 9/11 Commission Report and many other fonts, and I created Crono911 site. Paolo Attivissimo was doing the same kind of work, so we met and became friends. The job is now much more difficult, for CT :-) That's Crono911's history ! :-) btw I've filed a FOIA request too, for both United 93 and Flight 77 animations, and for all the FDR data they have. There're too much incongruences between various CSV files I downloaded from different sources, and now I want to be sure to keep an original copy. |
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#34 |
Just One More Question
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Lots of places
Posts: 9,237
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Welcome to the site John.
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I've been involved in a lot of cults, both as a leader and a follower. You have more fun as a follower, but you make more money as a leader.--Creed, "The Office" The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices to be only found in the minds of men. Prejudices and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all its own.--Rod Serling |
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#35 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,072
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Rob is still kicking. Thought he had stopped posting but he is still manufacturing the truth and making the rounds on the truther circuit. I heard him on a web cast with another pilot who can not fly a simulator into a building. I was wrong there are a few people, seems like challenged pilots from PFT, who cannot fly a perfectly good airplane into a building. The wonder pilots at PFT, can not even hit a building in a simulator. They talk of the evil dutch roll in their modern jet. Bet they would sling in engine in the old jets I flew. A professional pilot how lets dutch roll stop him from hitting his target is not very good. The terrorist are better pilots than PFT at hitting buildings. I could damp the dutch roll as it began without the rudder damper. They must not be smart enough to turn on the rudder damper. Guess the terrorist studied harder than our cheap PFT, too cheap to rent a real 757/767 sim. The PFT can not fly, they even tell you on the web cast! A kid off the street can, why are these pilots so challenged in flying or are they just being deceitful.
The 757/767 are easy to fly, but our PFT have problems. Kids off the street have been able to do it for me in a sim. But why believe an old over the hill dolt such as me. There was another pilot who put rookies in a sim and hit the pentagon with no formal training. Sorry Rob, your best efforts come up short of the truth. Pick up your stray straw and visit the wizard soon, he is running a special. Thank you for the kind words. You still seem to be popeye on the whole 9/11 thing.
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He is still pushing the weak story -
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He is still basing his whole ideas on a video produce by the NTSB now call a "working copy" as he is trying to sell DVDs of a working copy. He is basing his junk on nothing. Then you have him using Pentagon Police telling a story different than the one they did in 2001. Just the same old stuff. Pilot for Truth? What a joke. Let me see if the web page is there? http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/ Still there. They have John Lear, who thinks aliens are taking over and space ships come by all the time. Why would you have a nut case sign a news release? Rob is still out there, paranoid as ever. Actually in his above post, I can find no facts or evidence to support his conclusion. Rob sums it up best, his paranoia is showing.
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I am sorry if I call Rob a dolt, but he is the one using LT's stuff. CIT, they are not dolts, they are a crack research team! |
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#36 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,685
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__________________
9/11 Guide homepage Conspiracy theories abound and I believe firmly that all of them are without merit. - Chief Daniel Nigro |
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#37 |
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,918
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Wait a minute, they actually tried hitting a building in a sim, but couldn't? Isn't that a bit like advertising their own ineptitude at flying, especially when there exists a video of an amateur doing exactly what Hani did 3 out of 3 times? Nevermind, we're talking about John "Foot In Mouth" D'oh here.....the same pilot who didn't know if AA's 767s were fitted with ACARS(you have to be an airline pilot/avionics tech to truly appreciate the idiocy of that inquiry), the same pilot who thinks planes are packed on Tuesday mornings, the same pilot who can't differentiate between heading and track angle, the same pilot who can't figure actual DME range using slant range and altitude, and the same pilot who now apparently doesn't know that airliners have yaw dampers installed which all but eliminate dutch roll......sheesh. |
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#38 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,072
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They are on the record talking about it. They missed 10 times.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm58cPH8L78&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Epilots for911truth%2Eorg%2F The terrorist had tried to go faster sooner on 9/11 they may of had problems controlling the planes. But they lined up on the target and then pushed up the throttles. They only exceeded 350 KIAS for 20 or 30 seconds. The PFT expert pilots must of sped up too early to control the planes, or the 737 sim is not very good, the pilots suck, or a 737 does not have as much stability as does 757/767. Do you have the reference for the guy that fly people in a sim and hit time after time. |
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#39 |
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,918
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http://video.google.nl/videoplay?doc...=zembla#27m40s
It would appear that the plane being used is a 747-400, which obviously isn't anywhere near as nimble as the 757 - yet the National Aerospace Lab gentlemen(who is not a pilot) had no problems hitting the Pentagon wall 3 times in a row performing roughly the same 330 degree turn and descent..... |
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#40 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,075
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Ok, so I recieved my FOIA. It contained two CDs and one DVD designated:
data-CD "AA77 Records listen in letter (except animation)" Containing several PDFs: AAL77_fdr.pdf AAL77_tabular.csv ATC Report--AA77.pdf autopilot_AA77&UA93-study.pdf Flight Path Study--AA77.pdf Recorded Radar Data Study--all four aircraft.pdf data-CD "All 9-11 records listed in letter (except animation)" Containing several pdfs and a folder named "UA93-FDR-Tabular_files": AAL77_fdr.pdf AAL77_tabular.csv ATC Report--AA11.pdf ATC Report--AA77.pdf ATC Report--UA175.pdf ATC Report--UA93.pdf autopilot_AA77&UA93-study.pdf Debris Trajectory Study--UA175.pdf Flight Path Study--AA11.pdf Flight Path Study--AA77.pdf Flight Path Study--UA175.pdf Flight Path Study--UA93.pdf Radar Data Impact Speed Study--AA11, UA175.pdf Recorded Radar Data Study--all four aircraft.pdf UAL93FDR.pdf Video Data Impact Speed Study--UA175.pdf data-DVD "AAL-77 Animation with ATC text" Containing the animation. and a letter containing the following: "Regarding the American Airlines Flight 77 animation, the Safety Board recently realized that the time provided on this animation lists an incorrect annotation. Instead of "EDT (Eastern Daylight Time)," the time provided on the animation should say, "UTC (Universal Coordinated Time)." In spite of this error, the Safety Board has not created a new record with the correct time, as this working copy was never used for an official purpose; instead, the Safety Board is notifiying all recipients of this animation that the record includes an erroneous annotation". I have no idea if all of this is previously known online, but I'll try to make everything available asap (I'll assume it's legal to do so, since its been officially released via FOIA, not to mention that PfT uses the animation as a sellingpoint for their DVD... If anyone thinks otherwise, let me know). Cheers, SLOB |
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