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Tags 911 conspiracy theory , csv , flight 77 , flight data recorder

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Old 26th March 2007, 05:13 PM   #1
rearnakedchoke
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CSV FDR File was altered to make aircraft appear on southern approach

Recent email exchange with a mathmatics and statics expert in reverse engineering data...

http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_Fo...showtopic=5083
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Old 26th March 2007, 05:14 PM   #2
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crock.

TAM
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Old 26th March 2007, 05:16 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke View Post
Recent email exchange with a mathmatics and statics expert in reverse engineering data...

http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_Fo...showtopic=5083
It was adjusted for true north, but whoever adjusted it rotated it the wrong way. It's been discussed to death here, welcome to 6 months ago!
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Old 26th March 2007, 05:18 PM   #4
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BTW, I didn't see any mention of the earth-shattering P4T press release in the Chicago Tribune today, maybe I missed it?
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Old 26th March 2007, 06:43 PM   #5
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This just in....

Invisionfree.com's volcano of absolute nonsense spews hot gas for the umpteenth time.
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Old 26th March 2007, 06:51 PM   #6
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LOL, i love how JDX censors the guys email address, but leaves "engineer" there to impress people

Quote:
John Farmer <xxxxxx@xxxxengineer.com> wrote:
johnfarmer@HOscaleengineer.com

BTW, is this the same CSV file that the PFT were touting proved f77 didnt hit the pentagon? now they say it was altered? does that mean f77 DID hit the pentagon now?
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Old 26th March 2007, 07:24 PM   #7
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YES their current claim is that the all powerful Cabal altered the FDR data to make it appear it came south of Citgo, but were TOO STUPID to alter it further to make it hit the poles and pentagon...

FENCE SITTERS, please re-read what they are claiming...

TAM
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Old 26th March 2007, 09:27 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke View Post
Recent email exchange with a mathmatics and statics expert in reverse engineering data...

http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_Fo...showtopic=5083
You mentally challenged drone, the data discussed is the mag track vs mag heading, the difference to some would be God, it is the wind, mother nature.

What a bunch of dumb drones.

That whole thread is about the WIND. It proves the data was not altered. Do not post for JDX he is not able to correctly analyze a wet bag.

The WIND! JDX it is track vs heading! The wind.

WIND. can you read the thread you posted? They say the NTSB or government altered the FDR. NO! They are looking at the magnetic heading and the magnetic track. It is the wind that makes them different.

If you go boating on a river or fly in the air you would know what drift is. The angle between the heading and the track, is the drift angle. JDX is unable to figure this out! The wind!

WIND! Think about it and then find some facts you dolt. Do not post idiot junk if you do not understand why it is junk and just stupid lies.

You have to stop being so incredibly gullible. It was the wind, not the government. Explain why you are not able to figure this out?

Was JDX grounded by the government?

Last edited by beachnut; 26th March 2007 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 27th March 2007, 01:22 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe View Post
LOL, i love how JDX censors the guys email address, but leaves "engineer" there to impress people

johnfarmer@HOscaleengineer.com
HO Scale Engineer? In other words, he drives model trains? So it really was trains that brought down the twin towers!

Dave
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Old 27th March 2007, 02:31 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
HO Scale Engineer? In other words, he drives model trains? So it really was trains that brought down the twin towers!

Dave
Sure was.
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Old 27th March 2007, 04:34 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
HO Scale Engineer? In other words, he drives model trains? So it really was trains that brought down the twin towers!

Dave
to clear things up, HOscale was just a joke, but my point is without knowing what KIND of engineer his email address is it really doesnt impress me that it has engineer in it, lol
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Old 27th March 2007, 05:45 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
HO Scale Engineer? In other words, he drives model trains? So it really was trains that brought down the twin towers!

Dave
http://loosetrains911.blogspot.com
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Old 27th March 2007, 08:28 AM   #13
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I popped on over to the original blog posting by this "expert" in mathematics and statistics.

I notice that he's claiming that

*snicker*

Some math genius.
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Old 27th March 2007, 09:10 AM   #14
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s, dangit! s!
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Old 27th March 2007, 09:29 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
HO Scale Engineer? In other words, he drives model trains? So it really was trains that brought down the twin towers!

Dave
I always thought that when someone was handing out brains they thought they said "trains," and said, "no thank you."

As they said in A Mighty Wind, "Thank God for model trains, because they never would have got the idea for big ones." Or words to that effect.
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Old 27th March 2007, 09:33 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
You mentally challenged drone, the data discussed is the mag track vs mag heading, the difference to some would be God, it is the wind, mother nature.

What a bunch of dumb drones.

That whole thread is about the WIND. It proves the data was not altered. Do not post for JDX he is not able to correctly analyze a wet bag.

The WIND! JDX it is track vs heading! The wind.

WIND. can you read the thread you posted? They say the NTSB or government altered the FDR. NO! They are looking at the magnetic heading and the magnetic track. It is the wind that makes them different.

If you go boating on a river or fly in the air you would know what drift is. The angle between the heading and the track, is the drift angle. JDX is unable to figure this out! The wind!

WIND! Think about it and then find some facts you dolt. Do not post idiot junk if you do not understand why it is junk and just stupid lies.

You have to stop being so incredibly gullible. It was the wind, not the government. Explain why you are not able to figure this out?

Was JDX grounded by the government?
[derail] Wanna get into a discussion of the "Deadly Downwind Turn" and airspeed?[/derail]
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Old 27th March 2007, 11:19 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
s, dangit! s!
My thoughts exactly.

ETA: Ironically, he could've replaced either of two things with "s" to make the equation correct, although they would stand for slightly different things, IIRC. (either speed or displacement)

Last edited by JonnyFive; 27th March 2007 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 27th March 2007, 11:46 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
[derail] Wanna get into a discussion of the "Deadly Downwind Turn" and airspeed?[/derail]
sure, start it up, I want to skip downwind, request a closed pattern...

Last edited by beachnut; 27th March 2007 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 27th March 2007, 06:38 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
BTW, I didn't see any mention of the earth-shattering P4T press release in the Chicago Tribune today, maybe I missed it?
Sam Smith touched upon it, but only briefly, in his trade scenario to get Eddie Curry back column.
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Old 27th March 2007, 11:23 PM   #20
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Here is this mathematician's expert analysis.

Quote:
You are absolutely correct, I took flying lessons 35 years or so ago and after doing my solo I went no further (too expensive at the time). As I explained to Rob, this stuff makes very little sense to anyone who is not familiar with statistical techniques. You are absolutely correct also that I look at the forest (the complete data set) not the trees (the individual data points).

Really all that I did was break down the velocity data into its x (east – west) and y (north – south) components. You are also correct that I did not analyze the z component (vertical) for that study since it was not being examined.

The first question is, was the plane changing velocity in the x component during the time frame examined. The answer is yes. The second question, was there a change in longitude per time changing as well (recall from your college calculus that longitude/time is the same as velocity except you are using degrees instead of miles, or nautical miles in this case, and the first derivative or slope, is the rate of change in that value). The answer is that the degrees/second fit a linear regression line nearly perfectly meaning that the slope for those data points was relatively constant. In other words, there was not any significant change in the degree/second rate, or simply put, no.

Since it is known that the x component in velocity is changing, it does not make sense that the longitude rate of change is not. When you look at the y data, there is a corresponding change associated with BOTH. In other words, just another way of looking at the same data but in different units. The same phenomena is observed in the translated fdr file except the residual error of the regression fit has been corrected (the latitude/longitude offset in the csv file).

My goal was to understand for myself which data in those files makes sense in the “real world” and which has been tampered with. When you have three representations of the “same” data set, and all three are different, then I don’t think that any reasonable person can claim that they have not been tampered with. At this point, the only data that seems to behave as “real world” data is the physics data such as acceleration. So that is what I will use for my purposes.

I understand your frustration, and that is my lacking in being able to explain it in simpler terms. But try to think of it this way. Velocity is simply distance/time measured in miles per hour (or other unit). All I did was substitute degrees for miles and see if both changed in harmony (acceleration). They did not. Image my frustration trying to understand some of the aviation stuff you guys are talking about
As to the first bolding, beachnut was right. This idjit doesn't know that there are 3 independent heading/attitude systems, nor does he know the difference between heading and track. As to the second bolding....

I agree with tache, who replied:

Quote:
I have never seen more BS in one post in my life.
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Old 28th March 2007, 05:58 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by apathoid View Post
As to the second bolding....
I think we need to start putting "mathematician" and "expert" in quotes when we talk about this person.
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Old 28th March 2007, 06:31 AM   #22
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For any lurkers that may not be on to what JonnyFive, apathoid, and myself are griping about regarding v=d/t:
Quote:
Since velocity is defined as a vector quantity, both speed and direction are required to define it. For example, "5 metres per second" is a speed and not a vector, whereas "5 metres per second east" is a vector. The average velocity (v) of an object moving a displacement (s) in a straight line during a time interval (t) is described by the formula:
velocityWP
Whereas speed is:
Quote:
Speed is measured in the same physical units of measurement as velocity, but does not contain the element of direction that velocity has. Speed is thus the magnitude component of velocity.
In mathematical notation, it is simply:
speedWP
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Old 28th March 2007, 06:35 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
WIND! Think about it and then find some facts you dolt. Do not post idiot junk if you do not understand why it is junk and just stupid lies. You have to stop being so incredibly gullible. It was the wind, not the government. Explain why you are not able to figure this out?
Was JDX grounded by the government?
Maybe JDX is merely another bit of broken wind. This headupmynakedbutt fellow can't even claim that much substance.

DR
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Old 28th March 2007, 06:46 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
For any lurkers that may not be on to what JonnyFive, apathoid, and myself are griping about regarding v=d/t:
It's also worth pointing out that we're talking about both average speed and average velocity here, not instaneous speed or velocity, which the author of the original blog post didn't even touch.

On the "mathematician's" original blog post, here says:

Quote:
If you go up to the velocity charts, the pilot got very lucky (in spite of the erratic velocity recorded) because somehow he has managed to maintain a relatively constant average velocity (in the horizontal) until his final two maneuvers.
This is just silly. Average velocity over the duration of the flight will, by definition, be one value (even in the horizontal, horror of horrors!). It doesn't really tell you anything useful in this context either, just like figuring the average speed of a car that is involved in a crash doesn't tell you anything useful about the crash.

We're talking about a fundamental misunderstanding of the concepts involved.
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Old 28th March 2007, 06:53 AM   #25
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What's worse is this abject gibberish is dressed up in mildly sophisticated language. It's pseudoscience to the max, meant to mislead the stupid. It's worked.
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Old 28th March 2007, 07:01 AM   #26
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Looks like rearnakedchoke was a sock of weedwacker and is now banned.

Remember when JDX was posting under weedwacker's account, denied it but then slipped up by referring to JDX in the first person? Good times!
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Old 28th March 2007, 07:07 AM   #27
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There are two distinct people likely sharing the accounts.. JDX and THE DECIDER are definitely distinct. I know this because of THE DECIDER's obsession with Sylvia Browne.
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Old 28th March 2007, 07:24 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Anti-sophist View Post
What's worse is this abject gibberish is dressed up in mildly sophisticated language. It's pseudoscience to the max, meant to mislead the stupid. It's worked.
Truly. The person is presented as an "expert" in statistics and mathematics. Reading their material leads me to doubt those claims of expertise, but it looks fancy enough that the unsophisticated reader may be misled by the idea of a gen-u-ine expert presenting this information.
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Old 28th March 2007, 04:33 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by JonnyFive View Post
I popped on over to the original blog posting by this "expert" in mathematics and statistics.

I notice that he's claiming that http://www.randi.org/latexrender/lat...=\frac{d}{t}$$

*snicker*

Some math genius.
He may simply have been in a 9th grade science class - or, if from florida a taker of FCAT because, I teach science and had to teach v=d/t because that is the formula the science book has and FCAT uses and we have to (uh, get to) teach (not to the test, heaven forbid) to the things they need to klnow for the test (looks the same, but I'm told yearly it isn't. We have to all teach the same basic stuff also (cooperation). My TE says that 1500 times 45 is 37,500. I was allowed to fix that!! None of this is made up.(I do rebel, I explained to my 9th grade Sci. classes why and how the formula was wrong and why they had to use it anyway - 2 or 3 actually cared.)
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Old 28th March 2007, 05:29 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Looks like rearnakedchoke was a sock of weedwacker and is now banned.

Remember when JDX was posting under weedwacker's account, denied it but then slipped up by referring to JDX in the first person? Good times!
So JDX and weedwacker and that latest idiot are still just PFT idiots.

Poor JDX. Does that mean he made a thread just for me? He does like me, he likes me! Darn, I will have to make a thread about him but it put everyone to sleep. JDX can not even figure wind drift, how did he fly?

So our anti-keyboard commando was on a raid and failed. Funny he said he would not resort to being a keyboard kommando.

Banned, the censorNAZI banned.
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Old 28th March 2007, 06:03 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by BalsaPilot Bob
I have posted my information at pprune (where 50% of the pilots used ad homs and thought UA77 hit the pentagon, the other 50% who were critical thinkers thought they were good questions posed but 'pprune doesnt allow 9/11 talk'). The thread was locked.

Mr D'oh wouldn't be possibly be lying now would he? After a cursory search of pprune members who might be named JohnDoeX, John_DoeX, Rob Balsamo, Rob_Balsamo, PilotsFor*, Pilots_4*, Pilots_for* - I got no matches. Which leaves good 'ole AluminumDrvr . Funny, the only thread by this member is the Billzilla beard/pen-dot thread in which D'oh was embarrassed enough to not return since December :
Originally Posted by D'ohs pprune member profile
AluminumDrvr is offline

Last Activity: 19th December 2006 16:32
BTW - No mention of the FDR in that thread..
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Old 28th March 2007, 10:10 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by apathoid View Post
Mr D'oh wouldn't be possibly be lying now would he? After a cursory search of pprune members who might be named JohnDoeX, John_DoeX, Rob Balsamo, Rob_Balsamo, PilotsFor*, Pilots_4*, Pilots_for* - I got no matches. Which leaves good 'ole AluminumDrvr . Funny, the only thread by this member is the Billzilla beard/pen-dot thread in which D'oh was embarrassed enough to not return since December :


BTW - No mention of the FDR in that thread..
What do you think happen to his post?

If you break the above rules you may be banned, lose your PPRuNe Forums Membership and have all your posts deleted. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/misc.php?do=cfrules)

Bet JDX's money he was banned. Did JDX mess up, and then erased?


JDX has it wrong again. They do not let nut cases lie about 9/11. JDX has to stop telling lies.

Last edited by beachnut; 28th March 2007 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 29th March 2007, 06:34 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
He may simply have been in a 9th grade science class - or, if from florida a taker of FCAT because, I teach science and had to teach v=d/t because that is the formula the science book has and FCAT uses and we have to (uh, get to) teach (not to the test, heaven forbid) to the things they need to klnow for the test (looks the same, but I'm told yearly it isn't. We have to all teach the same basic stuff also (cooperation). My TE says that 1500 times 45 is 37,500. I was allowed to fix that!! None of this is made up.(I do rebel, I explained to my 9th grade Sci. classes why and how the formula was wrong and why they had to use it anyway - 2 or 3 actually cared.)
Your post makes me very, very sad on the inside.
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Old 29th March 2007, 06:43 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
What do you think happen to his post?

If you break the above rules you may be banned, lose your PPRuNe Forums Membership and have all your posts deleted. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/misc.php?do=cfrules)

Bet JDX's money he was banned. Did JDX mess up, and then erased?


JDX has it wrong again. They do not let nut cases lie about 9/11. JDX has to stop telling lies.
He was AluminumDrvr. Rob Balsamo simply lied about ever posting there about Flight 77. Because he's a liar, a coward, and interested only in selling his P4T merch since he's too bat**** insane to ever fly an airplane ever again.
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Old 29th March 2007, 07:32 AM   #35
sleahead
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Talking

Here is a British troofer giving a talk on the FDR data:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...3755&q=ipswich

During the course of the talk, he says:

Originally Posted by Calum Douglas
...then, basically, we took this stuff to several internet forums, where we began debating it with several people; a couple of the more notorious forums, which I won't mention, but who are generally notorious for claiming that investigations like this are somewhat pointless.
Would one of those forums be the notorious JREF, Calum? If so, it's a shame you had to lie by saying that the only thing JREF has to offer is a claim that investigations are pointless. Shame also that you didn't give this site a namecheck. What's wrong, afraid your audience might visit this site and get some information you don't wish them to see?

The part which may be of most interest to the the people here with FDR knowledge starts at around the 30 minute mark. He decribes how a file was given to a PfT member by a major company in the field, which made their decoding possible and then he presents the results.

Anyway, the thrust of his argument is that there are three piece of conflicting evidence which cannot be reconciled. Someone must be lying and all roads lead to the government:

If the FDR data is real, the plane is too high and couldn't hit the Pentagon or the light poles. Therefore, the government is lying.

If the FDR data is fake, the government is implicated by act of faking it.

If the Pentacon's two police officer witnesses are lying, the government is again implicated by virtue of the officers being government employees.

One new claim, at least one I've never heard before. The part the Pentagon that was hit housed the only computers containing the information relating to the investigation of the missing $2.3 trillion.
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Old 29th March 2007, 10:44 AM   #36
Anti-sophist
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Quote:
Would one of those forums be the notorious JREF, Calum? If so, it's a shame you had to lie by saying that the only thing JREF has to offer is a claim that investigations are pointless
Their arguments have been thoroughly examined here by several people with more experience in these matters then all of p4t. The fundamental flaws have been isolated, explained, re-explained, re-re-explained, repeated, link, re-linked, and re-re-linked more times then I care to count.

At some point they are just making a willful choice to perpetuate ignorance.

Quote:
If the FDR data is real, the plane is too high and couldn't hit the Pentagon or the light poles. Therefore, the government is lying.
This is as non-sequitor because the conclusion does not follow from the premise. There is absolutely no way, at all, a truther can make a conclusive and statistically significant argument that the plane was too high to hit the lightpoles given the FDR data.

They can't isolate both the height and the 2-d dimensional position of the plane with enough precision to make this claim with any statistical confidence.

This is a fallacy of false precision.

Quote:
If the FDR data is fake, the government is implicated by act of faking it.
I agree. However, there is no evidence that it is fake.

Quote:
If the Pentacon's two police officer witnesses are lying, the government is again implicated by virtue of the officers being government employees.
Again, non-sequitor, as the conclusion does not follow from the premise. There are plenty of other reasons they might lie. More importantly, he ignores his burden of proof of demonstrating his premise. He has provided no evidence that they lied -- most specifically, that they intentionally misled anyone.
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Old 29th March 2007, 03:20 PM   #37
fuelair
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Originally Posted by JonnyFive View Post
Your post makes me very, very sad on the inside.
Oddly, exactly how it makes me feel!
Well, plus annoyed, pissed off and such. On the bright side, it is a cherry-picked example I just brought it up because it tied errors among troofers to one I had to use because of the situation here.
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Old 30th March 2007, 06:49 AM   #38
JonnyFive
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Oddly, exactly how it makes me feel!
Well, plus annoyed, pissed off and such. On the bright side, it is a cherry-picked example I just brought it up because it tied errors among troofers to one I had to use because of the situation here.
That's not much of a bright side.

The fact that such a situation exists at all is ridiculous.
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Old 16th December 2008, 10:02 PM   #39
jryan1776
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Isnt the "statistics" and "mathematician" referred to as the "idjit" by apathoid and "the latest idiot" by Beachnut and what Anti-Sophist claims...

"What's worse is this abject gibberish is dressed up in mildly sophisticated language. It's pseudoscience to the max, meant to mislead the stupid. It's worked. "

... arent they referring to the same John Farmer who is now "911Files" on the JREF who still maintains the csv file was altered to show a southern approach?

Yep, looks like the same guy. I wonder why no one really questions his "pseudo-science" anymore, consdering Farmer does maintain the csv file is altered.

Have a nice day...

(thread saved)

Last edited by jryan1776; 16th December 2008 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 16th December 2008, 10:18 PM   #40
jryan1776
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
For any lurkers that may not be on to what JonnyFive, apathoid, and myself are griping about regarding v=d/t:
velocityWP
Whereas speed is:
speedWP

This is what Farmer had to say about your reply Arkan,


Quote:
I went back and read over a few comments and picked up on someone commenting on the v = d/t equation I posted on my blog.

First, anyone with half a brain knows that the v, d, t are as arbitrary as anyone wants to make them. I could just as easily replace them with a, b, and c if I wanted to, since it is the quantity they represent that is important, not the symbol used to represent them. In one post I use "Velocity = distance/time" to represent the same concept.

Second, the critic's comments are curiously similar to the Wikipedia entry for velocity which leads me to believe he has no clue what he is talking about.

Third, velocity is indeed a vector (that is why I discuss it in terms of its components) and speed is a scalar so the proper terminology would be speed, not velocity. However, those posts are written for the lay person and it is so stated in them and I intentionally try to use common terms and am quite loose in jumping between the two (speed and velocity) to avoid losing my audience. If I were writing a technical paper for a technical audience I would use a stricter construct.

So, when my intent is to compare changes two quantities such as the east-west component of the planes SPEED, with change in longitude (delta longitude/delta time), I don't want to confuse my audience (they get lost enough) by applying two sets of terminology to something that is for all practical purposes the same, which is what distance is traveled in what period of time. The units used are also purely arbitrary. Distance can be in inches, degrees, radians, miles, feet, or Donald Duck units. Time can be in seconds, hours, centuries...whatever. All I'm looking for in the case under discussion is whether speed, velocity, distance/time, or whatever definition you want to use is changing. I don't even care if the change is equal or not. All I'm looking for is, are they BOTH changing, whatever unit I (or you) wish to use. In this case, one is, one is not during the same time interval. That is suspicious to me. It may not be to you.

I could have been even more exact than you seem to feel I was in terminology. Because what I was really going for was the first derivative of that simple "equation". Perhaps next time I could show off all of the fancy calculus and matrix algebra formulas I know. Boy, I could use the summation symbol every time I wanted to show I was adding a bunch of quantities. Throw in the natural logarithm symbol just for good measure. Folks would think I'm real smart then.

You remind me of a PhD guy we had working in our advanced technologies lab down in Round Rock. I was working on a problem that had eluded their division for two years and simply emailed him a simple question about one final problem I was having. A few weeks later I got back a very lengthy and technical response covering in great detail how what I was attempting to do was impossible. I was real impressed with the exactness of his technical presentation. The only problem was, I had already solved the problem and our plant was already in trial runs with the solution.

Good job reading the Wikipedia definition!

Afterthought:

I just glanced over at my Mathematical Methods for Physicists (3rd Ed) and Advanced Engineering Mathematics reference books I have on my desk next to me. I bet I could get some real fancy equations out of those too books to impress you with next time

z10.invisionfree.com/ Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6221&view=findpost&p= 12926197
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