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 International Skeptics Forum CSV FDR File was altered to make aircraft appear on southern approach

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 Tags 911 conspiracy theory , csv , flight 77 , flight data recorder

 26th March 2007, 05:13 PM #1 rearnakedchoke Banned   Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 150 CSV FDR File was altered to make aircraft appear on southern approach Recent email exchange with a mathmatics and statics expert in reverse engineering data... http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_Fo...showtopic=5083
 26th March 2007, 05:14 PM #2 T.A.M. Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,795 crock. TAM
 26th March 2007, 05:16 PM #3 WildCat NWO Master Conspirator     Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 59,856 Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke Recent email exchange with a mathmatics and statics expert in reverse engineering data... http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_Fo...showtopic=5083 It was adjusted for true north, but whoever adjusted it rotated it the wrong way. It's been discussed to death here, welcome to 6 months ago!
 26th March 2007, 05:18 PM #4 WildCat NWO Master Conspirator     Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 59,856 BTW, I didn't see any mention of the earth-shattering P4T press release in the Chicago Tribune today, maybe I missed it?
 26th March 2007, 06:43 PM #5 cloudshipsrule Graduate Poster   Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,170 This just in.... Invisionfree.com's volcano of absolute nonsense spews hot gas for the umpteenth time.
 26th March 2007, 06:51 PM #6 defaultdotxbe Drunken Shikigami     Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 7,474 LOL, i love how JDX censors the guys email address, but leaves "engineer" there to impress people Quote: John Farmer wrote: johnfarmer@HOscaleengineer.com BTW, is this the same CSV file that the PFT were touting proved f77 didnt hit the pentagon? now they say it was altered? does that mean f77 DID hit the pentagon now? __________________ I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -Albert Einstein
 26th March 2007, 07:24 PM #7 T.A.M. Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,795 YES their current claim is that the all powerful Cabal altered the FDR data to make it appear it came south of Citgo, but were TOO STUPID to alter it further to make it hit the poles and pentagon... FENCE SITTERS, please re-read what they are claiming... TAM
 26th March 2007, 09:27 PM #8 beachnut Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Dog House Posts: 26,078 Originally Posted by rearnakedchoke Recent email exchange with a mathmatics and statics expert in reverse engineering data... http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_Fo...showtopic=5083 You mentally challenged drone, the data discussed is the mag track vs mag heading, the difference to some would be God, it is the wind, mother nature. What a bunch of dumb drones. That whole thread is about the WIND. It proves the data was not altered. Do not post for JDX he is not able to correctly analyze a wet bag. The WIND! JDX it is track vs heading! The wind. WIND. can you read the thread you posted? They say the NTSB or government altered the FDR. NO! They are looking at the magnetic heading and the magnetic track. It is the wind that makes them different. If you go boating on a river or fly in the air you would know what drift is. The angle between the heading and the track, is the drift angle. JDX is unable to figure this out! The wind! WIND! Think about it and then find some facts you dolt. Do not post idiot junk if you do not understand why it is junk and just stupid lies. You have to stop being so incredibly gullible. It was the wind, not the government. Explain why you are not able to figure this out? Was JDX grounded by the government? Last edited by beachnut; 26th March 2007 at 09:33 PM.
 27th March 2007, 01:22 AM #9 Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles     Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 33,339 Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe LOL, i love how JDX censors the guys email address, but leaves "engineer" there to impress people johnfarmer@HOscaleengineer.com HO Scale Engineer? In other words, he drives model trains? So it really was trains that brought down the twin towers! Dave __________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
 27th March 2007, 02:31 AM #10 Coritani Critical Thinker     Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 317 Originally Posted by Dave Rogers HO Scale Engineer? In other words, he drives model trains? So it really was trains that brought down the twin towers! Dave Sure was. __________________ The truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it, ignorance may deride it, malice may distort it, but there it is. - Winston Churchill
 27th March 2007, 04:34 AM #11 defaultdotxbe Drunken Shikigami     Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 7,474 Originally Posted by Dave Rogers HO Scale Engineer? In other words, he drives model trains? So it really was trains that brought down the twin towers! Dave to clear things up, HOscale was just a joke, but my point is without knowing what KIND of engineer his email address is it really doesnt impress me that it has engineer in it, lol __________________ I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -Albert Einstein
 27th March 2007, 05:45 AM #12 JAStewart Graduate Poster Tagger     Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,521 Originally Posted by Dave Rogers HO Scale Engineer? In other words, he drives model trains? So it really was trains that brought down the twin towers! Dave http://loosetrains911.blogspot.com __________________ Ignorance and google is a horrible combination. - BigAl Argumentum ad YouTubeum - sts60
 27th March 2007, 08:28 AM #13 JonnyFive Illuminator   Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,459 I popped on over to the original blog posting by this "expert" in mathematics and statistics. I notice that he's claiming that  *snicker* Some math genius.
 27th March 2007, 09:10 AM #14 Arkan_Wolfshade Philosopher   Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 7,154 s, dangit! s!
 27th March 2007, 09:29 AM #15 CptColumbo Just One More Question     Join Date: May 2004 Location: Lots of places Posts: 9,237 Originally Posted by Dave Rogers HO Scale Engineer? In other words, he drives model trains? So it really was trains that brought down the twin towers! Dave I always thought that when someone was handing out brains they thought they said "trains," and said, "no thank you." As they said in A Mighty Wind, "Thank God for model trains, because they never would have got the idea for big ones." Or words to that effect. __________________ I've been involved in a lot of cults, both as a leader and a follower. You have more fun as a follower, but you make more money as a leader.--Creed, "The Office" The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices to be only found in the minds of men. Prejudices and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all its own.--Rod Serling
 27th March 2007, 11:19 AM #17 JonnyFive Illuminator   Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,459 Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade s, dangit! s! My thoughts exactly. ETA: Ironically, he could've replaced either of two things with "s" to make the equation correct, although they would stand for slightly different things, IIRC. (either speed or displacement) Last edited by JonnyFive; 27th March 2007 at 11:22 AM.
 27th March 2007, 11:46 AM #18 beachnut Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Dog House Posts: 26,078 Originally Posted by rwguinn [derail] Wanna get into a discussion of the "Deadly Downwind Turn" and airspeed?[/derail] sure, start it up, I want to skip downwind, request a closed pattern... Last edited by beachnut; 27th March 2007 at 11:51 AM.
 27th March 2007, 06:38 PM #19 Crungy Critical Thinker   Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 449 Originally Posted by WildCat BTW, I didn't see any mention of the earth-shattering P4T press release in the Chicago Tribune today, maybe I missed it? Sam Smith touched upon it, but only briefly, in his trade scenario to get Eddie Curry back column.
 27th March 2007, 11:23 PM #20 apathoid Guest   Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 2,918 Here is this mathematician's expert analysis. Quote: You are absolutely correct, I took flying lessons 35 years or so ago and after doing my solo I went no further (too expensive at the time). As I explained to Rob, this stuff makes very little sense to anyone who is not familiar with statistical techniques. You are absolutely correct also that I look at the forest (the complete data set) not the trees (the individual data points). Really all that I did was break down the velocity data into its x (east – west) and y (north – south) components. You are also correct that I did not analyze the z component (vertical) for that study since it was not being examined. The first question is, was the plane changing velocity in the x component during the time frame examined. The answer is yes. The second question, was there a change in longitude per time changing as well (recall from your college calculus that longitude/time is the same as velocity except you are using degrees instead of miles, or nautical miles in this case, and the first derivative or slope, is the rate of change in that value). The answer is that the degrees/second fit a linear regression line nearly perfectly meaning that the slope for those data points was relatively constant. In other words, there was not any significant change in the degree/second rate, or simply put, no. Since it is known that the x component in velocity is changing, it does not make sense that the longitude rate of change is not. When you look at the y data, there is a corresponding change associated with BOTH. In other words, just another way of looking at the same data but in different units. The same phenomena is observed in the translated fdr file except the residual error of the regression fit has been corrected (the latitude/longitude offset in the csv file). My goal was to understand for myself which data in those files makes sense in the “real world” and which has been tampered with. When you have three representations of the “same” data set, and all three are different, then I don’t think that any reasonable person can claim that they have not been tampered with. At this point, the only data that seems to behave as “real world” data is the physics data such as acceleration. So that is what I will use for my purposes. I understand your frustration, and that is my lacking in being able to explain it in simpler terms. But try to think of it this way. Velocity is simply distance/time measured in miles per hour (or other unit). All I did was substitute degrees for miles and see if both changed in harmony (acceleration). They did not. Image my frustration trying to understand some of the aviation stuff you guys are talking about As to the first bolding, beachnut was right. This idjit doesn't know that there are 3 independent heading/attitude systems, nor does he know the difference between heading and track. As to the second bolding.... I agree with tache, who replied: Quote: I have never seen more BS in one post in my life.
 28th March 2007, 05:58 AM #21 JonnyFive Illuminator   Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,459 Originally Posted by apathoid As to the second bolding.... I think we need to start putting "mathematician" and "expert" in quotes when we talk about this person.
 28th March 2007, 06:31 AM #22 Arkan_Wolfshade Philosopher   Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 7,154 For any lurkers that may not be on to what JonnyFive, apathoid, and myself are griping about regarding v=d/t: Quote: Since velocity is defined as a vector quantity, both speed and direction are required to define it. For example, "5 metres per second" is a speed and not a vector, whereas "5 metres per second east" is a vector. The average velocity (v) of an object moving a displacement (s) in a straight line during a time interval (t) is described by the formula: velocityWP Whereas speed is: Quote: Speed is measured in the same physical units of measurement as velocity, but does not contain the element of direction that velocity has. Speed is thus the magnitude component of velocity. In mathematical notation, it is simply: speedWP
 28th March 2007, 06:35 AM #23 Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic     Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 38,527 Originally Posted by beachnut WIND! Think about it and then find some facts you dolt. Do not post idiot junk if you do not understand why it is junk and just stupid lies. You have to stop being so incredibly gullible. It was the wind, not the government. Explain why you are not able to figure this out? Was JDX grounded by the government? Maybe JDX is merely another bit of broken wind. This headupmynakedbutt fellow can't even claim that much substance. DR __________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis
 28th March 2007, 06:46 AM #24 JonnyFive Illuminator   Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,459 Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade For any lurkers that may not be on to what JonnyFive, apathoid, and myself are griping about regarding v=d/t: It's also worth pointing out that we're talking about both average speed and average velocity here, not instaneous speed or velocity, which the author of the original blog post didn't even touch. On the "mathematician's" original blog post, here says: Quote: If you go up to the velocity charts, the pilot got very lucky (in spite of the erratic velocity recorded) because somehow he has managed to maintain a relatively constant average velocity (in the horizontal) until his final two maneuvers. This is just silly. Average velocity over the duration of the flight will, by definition, be one value (even in the horizontal, horror of horrors!). It doesn't really tell you anything useful in this context either, just like figuring the average speed of a car that is involved in a crash doesn't tell you anything useful about the crash. We're talking about a fundamental misunderstanding of the concepts involved.
 28th March 2007, 06:53 AM #25 Anti-sophist Graduate Poster     Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,542 What's worse is this abject gibberish is dressed up in mildly sophisticated language. It's pseudoscience to the max, meant to mislead the stupid. It's worked. __________________ A witty saying proves nothing. -Voltaire
 28th March 2007, 07:01 AM #26 WildCat NWO Master Conspirator     Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 59,856 Looks like rearnakedchoke was a sock of weedwacker and is now banned. Remember when JDX was posting under weedwacker's account, denied it but then slipped up by referring to JDX in the first person? Good times!
 28th March 2007, 07:07 AM #27 Anti-sophist Graduate Poster     Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,542 There are two distinct people likely sharing the accounts.. JDX and THE DECIDER are definitely distinct. I know this because of THE DECIDER's obsession with Sylvia Browne. __________________ A witty saying proves nothing. -Voltaire
 28th March 2007, 07:24 AM #28 JonnyFive Illuminator   Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,459 Originally Posted by Anti-sophist What's worse is this abject gibberish is dressed up in mildly sophisticated language. It's pseudoscience to the max, meant to mislead the stupid. It's worked. Truly. The person is presented as an "expert" in statistics and mathematics. Reading their material leads me to doubt those claims of expertise, but it looks fancy enough that the unsophisticated reader may be misled by the idea of a gen-u-ine expert presenting this information.
 28th March 2007, 04:33 PM #29 fuelair Banned     Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 58,581 Originally Posted by JonnyFive I popped on over to the original blog posting by this "expert" in mathematics and statistics. I notice that he's claiming that http://www.randi.org/latexrender/lat...=\frac{d}{t} *snicker* Some math genius. He may simply have been in a 9th grade science class - or, if from florida a taker of FCAT because, I teach science and had to teach v=d/t because that is the formula the science book has and FCAT uses and we have to (uh, get to) teach (not to the test, heaven forbid) to the things they need to klnow for the test (looks the same, but I'm told yearly it isn't. We have to all teach the same basic stuff also (cooperation). My TE says that 1500 times 45 is 37,500. I was allowed to fix that!! None of this is made up.(I do rebel, I explained to my 9th grade Sci. classes why and how the formula was wrong and why they had to use it anyway - 2 or 3 actually cared.)
 28th March 2007, 05:29 PM #30 beachnut Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Dog House Posts: 26,078 Originally Posted by WildCat Looks like rearnakedchoke was a sock of weedwacker and is now banned. Remember when JDX was posting under weedwacker's account, denied it but then slipped up by referring to JDX in the first person? Good times! So JDX and weedwacker and that latest idiot are still just PFT idiots. Poor JDX. Does that mean he made a thread just for me? He does like me, he likes me! Darn, I will have to make a thread about him but it put everyone to sleep. JDX can not even figure wind drift, how did he fly? So our anti-keyboard commando was on a raid and failed. Funny he said he would not resort to being a keyboard kommando. Banned, the censorNAZI banned.
 28th March 2007, 06:03 PM #31 apathoid Guest   Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 2,918 Originally Posted by BalsaPilot Bob I have posted my information at pprune (where 50% of the pilots used ad homs and thought UA77 hit the pentagon, the other 50% who were critical thinkers thought they were good questions posed but 'pprune doesnt allow 9/11 talk'). The thread was locked. Mr D'oh wouldn't be possibly be lying now would he? After a cursory search of pprune members who might be named JohnDoeX, John_DoeX, Rob Balsamo, Rob_Balsamo, PilotsFor*, Pilots_4*, Pilots_for* - I got no matches. Which leaves good 'ole AluminumDrvr . Funny, the only thread by this member is the Billzilla beard/pen-dot thread in which D'oh was embarrassed enough to not return since December : Originally Posted by D'ohs pprune member profile AluminumDrvr is offline Last Activity: 19th December 2006 16:32 BTW - No mention of the FDR in that thread..
 28th March 2007, 10:10 PM #32 beachnut Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Dog House Posts: 26,078 Originally Posted by apathoid Mr D'oh wouldn't be possibly be lying now would he? After a cursory search of pprune members who might be named JohnDoeX, John_DoeX, Rob Balsamo, Rob_Balsamo, PilotsFor*, Pilots_4*, Pilots_for* - I got no matches. Which leaves good 'ole AluminumDrvr . Funny, the only thread by this member is the Billzilla beard/pen-dot thread in which D'oh was embarrassed enough to not return since December : BTW - No mention of the FDR in that thread.. What do you think happen to his post? If you break the above rules you may be banned, lose your PPRuNe Forums Membership and have all your posts deleted. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/misc.php?do=cfrules) Bet JDX's money he was banned. Did JDX mess up, and then erased? JDX has it wrong again. They do not let nut cases lie about 9/11. JDX has to stop telling lies. Last edited by beachnut; 28th March 2007 at 10:14 PM.
 29th March 2007, 06:34 AM #33 JonnyFive Illuminator   Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,459 Originally Posted by fuelair He may simply have been in a 9th grade science class - or, if from florida a taker of FCAT because, I teach science and had to teach v=d/t because that is the formula the science book has and FCAT uses and we have to (uh, get to) teach (not to the test, heaven forbid) to the things they need to klnow for the test (looks the same, but I'm told yearly it isn't. We have to all teach the same basic stuff also (cooperation). My TE says that 1500 times 45 is 37,500. I was allowed to fix that!! None of this is made up.(I do rebel, I explained to my 9th grade Sci. classes why and how the formula was wrong and why they had to use it anyway - 2 or 3 actually cared.) Your post makes me very, very sad on the inside.
 29th March 2007, 06:43 AM #34 WildCat NWO Master Conspirator     Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 59,856 Originally Posted by beachnut What do you think happen to his post? If you break the above rules you may be banned, lose your PPRuNe Forums Membership and have all your posts deleted. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/misc.php?do=cfrules) Bet JDX's money he was banned. Did JDX mess up, and then erased? JDX has it wrong again. They do not let nut cases lie about 9/11. JDX has to stop telling lies. He was AluminumDrvr. Rob Balsamo simply lied about ever posting there about Flight 77. Because he's a liar, a coward, and interested only in selling his P4T merch since he's too bat**** insane to ever fly an airplane ever again. __________________ Vive la liberté!
 29th March 2007, 07:32 AM #35 sleahead Critical Thinker     Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 406 Here is a British troofer giving a talk on the FDR data: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...3755&q=ipswich During the course of the talk, he says: Originally Posted by Calum Douglas ...then, basically, we took this stuff to several internet forums, where we began debating it with several people; a couple of the more notorious forums, which I won't mention, but who are generally notorious for claiming that investigations like this are somewhat pointless. Would one of those forums be the notorious JREF, Calum? If so, it's a shame you had to lie by saying that the only thing JREF has to offer is a claim that investigations are pointless. Shame also that you didn't give this site a namecheck. What's wrong, afraid your audience might visit this site and get some information you don't wish them to see? The part which may be of most interest to the the people here with FDR knowledge starts at around the 30 minute mark. He decribes how a file was given to a PfT member by a major company in the field, which made their decoding possible and then he presents the results. Anyway, the thrust of his argument is that there are three piece of conflicting evidence which cannot be reconciled. Someone must be lying and all roads lead to the government: If the FDR data is real, the plane is too high and couldn't hit the Pentagon or the light poles. Therefore, the government is lying. If the FDR data is fake, the government is implicated by act of faking it. If the Pentacon's two police officer witnesses are lying, the government is again implicated by virtue of the officers being government employees. One new claim, at least one I've never heard before. The part the Pentagon that was hit housed the only computers containing the information relating to the investigation of the missing \$2.3 trillion.
 29th March 2007, 10:44 AM #36 Anti-sophist Graduate Poster     Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,542 Quote: Would one of those forums be the notorious JREF, Calum? If so, it's a shame you had to lie by saying that the only thing JREF has to offer is a claim that investigations are pointless Their arguments have been thoroughly examined here by several people with more experience in these matters then all of p4t. The fundamental flaws have been isolated, explained, re-explained, re-re-explained, repeated, link, re-linked, and re-re-linked more times then I care to count. At some point they are just making a willful choice to perpetuate ignorance. Quote: If the FDR data is real, the plane is too high and couldn't hit the Pentagon or the light poles. Therefore, the government is lying. This is as non-sequitor because the conclusion does not follow from the premise. There is absolutely no way, at all, a truther can make a conclusive and statistically significant argument that the plane was too high to hit the lightpoles given the FDR data. They can't isolate both the height and the 2-d dimensional position of the plane with enough precision to make this claim with any statistical confidence. This is a fallacy of false precision. Quote: If the FDR data is fake, the government is implicated by act of faking it. I agree. However, there is no evidence that it is fake. Quote: If the Pentacon's two police officer witnesses are lying, the government is again implicated by virtue of the officers being government employees. Again, non-sequitor, as the conclusion does not follow from the premise. There are plenty of other reasons they might lie. More importantly, he ignores his burden of proof of demonstrating his premise. He has provided no evidence that they lied -- most specifically, that they intentionally misled anyone. __________________ A witty saying proves nothing. -Voltaire
 29th March 2007, 03:20 PM #37 fuelair Banned     Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 58,581 Originally Posted by JonnyFive Your post makes me very, very sad on the inside. Oddly, exactly how it makes me feel! Well, plus annoyed, pissed off and such. On the bright side, it is a cherry-picked example I just brought it up because it tied errors among troofers to one I had to use because of the situation here.
 30th March 2007, 06:49 AM #38 JonnyFive Illuminator   Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,459 Originally Posted by fuelair Oddly, exactly how it makes me feel! Well, plus annoyed, pissed off and such. On the bright side, it is a cherry-picked example I just brought it up because it tied errors among troofers to one I had to use because of the situation here. That's not much of a bright side. The fact that such a situation exists at all is ridiculous.
 16th December 2008, 10:02 PM #39 jryan1776 Banned   Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 31 Isnt the "statistics" and "mathematician" referred to as the "idjit" by apathoid and "the latest idiot" by Beachnut and what Anti-Sophist claims... "What's worse is this abject gibberish is dressed up in mildly sophisticated language. It's pseudoscience to the max, meant to mislead the stupid. It's worked. " ... arent they referring to the same John Farmer who is now "911Files" on the JREF who still maintains the csv file was altered to show a southern approach? Yep, looks like the same guy. I wonder why no one really questions his "pseudo-science" anymore, consdering Farmer does maintain the csv file is altered. Have a nice day... (thread saved) Last edited by jryan1776; 16th December 2008 at 10:07 PM.

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