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Tags Arthur Janov , john lennon , neurology , primal therapy , psychology

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Old 13th April 2007, 02:01 PM   #1
noblecaboose
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Is Primal Therapy woo?

The other day I was listening to one of my favorite local radio shows/podcasts, Berkeley Groks and they had as their guests the creators of so-called "Primal Therapy." This show I consider to be rather respectable and they typically have guests that are informative if often a little dry. These two people, Dr. Janov and his wife, claim that their "revolutionary" method is supported by recent science in neurology and psychology, but it sounds just like regression therapy to me. They also claim that John Lennon was one of their patients and that his therapy made it possible for him to write the Plastic Ono Band album. It all sounded a bit suspicious to me, especially when they started talking about how pain from your past can be "healed" by returning to that time and screaming it out. It further tickeled my skeptic antennae when they talked about how only their method was the right way and that unqualified people could seriously hurt someone. In short, in started to sound like a cult.

Has anyone else heard of these people? They claim to have done "double blind studies" but I don't quite see how that's possible with something like this. If anyone has heard of this, especially anyone in the psychological or neurological professions, I am extremely curious to know if their claims are supported or if they are as cultish as they sound.
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Old 13th April 2007, 02:12 PM   #2
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Well, it's certainly been around for a long time (I'm sure I remember it being called Primal Scream Therapy), and the Lennon and Yoko link doesn't surprise me, but as to how effective it is or what studies have been done I have no idea.
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Old 13th April 2007, 02:50 PM   #3
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The idea that Primal Therapy is anything more than BS is a real scream.
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Old 13th April 2007, 03:06 PM   #4
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The philosophy behind primal therapy is woo. Do you any clue how to find the studies so we can examine them skeptically?
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Old 13th April 2007, 04:18 PM   #5
noblecaboose
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Originally Posted by Dogdoctor View Post
The philosophy behind primal therapy is woo. Do you any clue how to find the studies so we can examine them skeptically?
That's what I was wondering. I would hope that there are some references on their sites (1, 2). I haven't had time to do the follow up research yet, but hopefully I will be able to this weekend. Between going to school and working full time, I barely have enough time to do my homework as it is.
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Old 13th April 2007, 04:20 PM   #6
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I don't think it's effectiveness has ever been properly studied. It sounds like a bunch of woo, though. My vote is 99.9% probability that it's pure woo.
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Old 13th April 2007, 04:28 PM   #7
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I'll see your 99.9% and raise you .09%
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Old 13th April 2007, 04:39 PM   #8
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Whoa! must be true! Check out this testimonial from another satisfied and mentally stable customer:
Quote:
After only one month of Primal Therapy, most of the physical pain I suffered was gone. I might add that this pain plagued me my whole life. I'm not certain when I stopped cringing at the sound of the phone and doorbell. I just noticed one day that I didn't do it anymore. Nowadays I'm simply curious to see who is there. I still don't like driving very much, but I'm no longer afraid to drive. These days I can look around in my office and see that it is in pretty good shape. It used to look like I'd thrown a hand grenade in here. I feel good almost every day and more often than not, I feel great. My relationship with my wife is many times better than it was before therapy. We now shower together every day. This might not seem like much to you, but we had never showered together in all the years of our marriage. It is now an event we both look forward to each day. We love to wash and pleasure each other. We have become very familiar with each other's bodies, which just makes good sense now we are older and more vulnerable to certain diseases. It also makes us closer than we have ever been. I'm much less scattered now and can read with full focus for hours at a time – and enjoy it...
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Old 13th April 2007, 04:45 PM   #9
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See post #3. I have never seen this properly tested. If anyone can find some evidence, I'm open to reconsideration.
All it did for me is to fook up one of my favorite albums.
"Working class hero is something to be"
"Cod is a concept by which we measure our pain".

Last edited by Jeff Corey; 13th April 2007 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 13th April 2007, 05:03 PM   #10
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I just spent quite a while looking for evidence that it works, and I'm not finding anything. I did find one paper that mentioned it:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/j72w75684005w761/

Quote:
Must most psychotherapists remain as incompetent as they now are?
Quote:
This paper was originally presented at the Symposium, Competence in Psychology: Hopeless Ideal or Trainable and Measurable Reality?, American Psychological Association Convention, Montreal, Sept. 2, 1980.
That would be an interesting fulltext to read...
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Old 15th April 2007, 07:56 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by noblecaboose View Post
The other day I was listening to one of my favorite local radio shows/podcasts, Berkeley Groks and they had as their guests the creators of so-called "Primal Therapy." This show I consider to be rather respectable and they typically have guests that are informative if often a little dry. These two people, Dr. Janov and his wife, claim that their "revolutionary" method is supported by recent science in neurology and psychology, but it sounds just like regression therapy to me. They also claim that John Lennon was one of their patients and that his therapy made it possible for him to write the Plastic Ono Band album. It all sounded a bit suspicious to me, especially when they started talking about how pain from your past can be "healed" by returning to that time and screaming it out. It further tickeled my skeptic antennae when they talked about how only their method was the right way and that unqualified people could seriously hurt someone. In short, in started to sound like a cult.

Has anyone else heard of these people? They claim to have done "double blind studies" but I don't quite see how that's possible with something like this. If anyone has heard of this, especially anyone in the psychological or neurological professions, I am extremely curious to know if their claims are supported or if they are as cultish as they sound.

Check out the science behind it. That's right, there isn't any.

PT is New Age claptrap, despite Janov's devout wish to have it validated by science.

Lennon was a client, but not for very long. Remember, Lennon was also into the Maharishi for a while, and who knows what else. We were young, and we were searching...

The difference between a psychiatrist and a good listener is simply this: the psychiatrist is accountable, to a degree, and hence is unlikely to ravish you when you're most vulnerable. However, there have been rogue psychiatrists.

Contrast this with $cientology -- a real cult that practices psychiatry with absolutely no accountability, and you begin to get the lay of the land.

M.

ETA: I endured an Australian version of this scam in the late 70s. I've posted elsewhere in this forum about some of my experiences.

Last edited by Moochie; 15th April 2007 at 08:06 AM. Reason: Clarification.
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Old 15th April 2007, 08:48 AM   #12
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I'm a fan of the caboose. Anyone possessing a noble one has certainly caught my attention. OK, what are we talking about? Something about Primal Therapy. It's woo.
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Old 15th April 2007, 09:12 AM   #13
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The current woo-woo incrusted Massage Therapy opinion I've heard repeatedly about Primal Scream Therapy is that it gives a dramatic and exciting vent to pent up and repressed feelings, but does nothing in the long term for people holding onto past emotional trama. I'm told that it tends to "retramatize."

This opinion is from Massage Therapists who played with it and found it didn't really do anything or was counter-productive. It's dropped out of New Age popularity, but it may be making comeback the same way the Law of Attraction drivel keeps being recycled for the next generation of dupes.

People will pay big money for the opportunity to bawl like a baby or shout obscenities about their parents.

Last edited by Apathia; 15th April 2007 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 15th April 2007, 09:27 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Hyparxis View Post
The current woo-woo incrusted Massage Therapy opinion I've heard repeatedly about Primal Scream Therapy is that it gives a dramatic and exciting vent to pent up and repressed feelings, but does nothing in the long term for people holding onto past emotional trama. I'm told that it tends to "retramatize."

This opinion is from Massage Therapists who played with it and found it didn't really do anything or was counter-productive. It's dropped out of New Age popularity, but it may be making comeback the same way the Law of Attraction drival keeps being recycled for the next generation of dupes.

People will pay big money for the opportunity to bawll like a baby or shout obscenities about their parents.

Yep.

Don't they know they can come here and do it for free?

M.
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Old 15th April 2007, 09:29 AM   #15
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Anyone from Sweden may have heard of Flogstavrålet (the Flogsta scream). In the 70s primal scream therapy had its haydays, and a tradition developed in Flogsta, a part of the city of Uppsala: every evening at 10, from windows and balconys, people are screaming like raging maniacs. Continues still today, been there, heard it, done it! The buildings are all highrises with lots of student apartments, so the effect can be quite strong, especially to someone who didnt know and didnt expect it. I mean, lots of your neighbours near and far start screaming from their windows all at once, what will you think?
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Old 15th April 2007, 09:35 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by scratchy View Post
Anyone from Sweden may have heard of Flogstavrålet (the Flogsta scream). In the 70s primal scream therapy had its haydays, and a tradition developed in Flogsta, a part of the city of Uppsala: every evening at 10, from windows and balconys, people are screaming like raging maniacs. Continues still today, been there, heard it, done it! The buildings are all highrises with lots of student apartments, so the effect can be quite strong, especially to someone who didnt know and didnt expect it. I mean, lots of your neighbours near and far start screaming from their windows all at once, what will you think?

They're not going to take it any more?

M.
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Old 15th April 2007, 10:06 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by noblecaboose View Post
They also claim that John Lennon was one of their patients and that his therapy made it possible for him to write the Plastic Ono Band album.
I'm just amazed that they would site that album as proof that their therapy works.

Robert

Last edited by Pope130; 15th April 2007 at 10:47 AM. Reason: Thick fingers.
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Old 15th April 2007, 01:08 PM   #18
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by noblecaboose
They also claim that John Lennon was one of their patients and that his therapy made it possible for him to write the Plastic Ono Band album.

I'm just amazed that they would site that album as proof that their therapy works.

Robert


You mean because it's not a very good album, Robert ?

Surely not, but tastes differ, I suppose.

Anyway, Janov wasn't sayng that his undoubted influence on the album was "proof that their therapy works" - just that it helped Lennon compose the album, which is true.

And given that 37 years later, the album is considered by Rolling Stone magazine to be the 22nd Greatest Album Ever Made, I think Janov is entitled to feel some degree of satisfaction about his contribution to it.

Personally, I love it, harrowing though it is in parts.

Gnu.
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Old 15th April 2007, 01:21 PM   #19
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Regression therapy? Famous successful clients? Sounds like Scientology to me.
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Old 15th April 2007, 01:32 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by noblecaboose View Post
...In short, in started to sound like a cult.

I remember hearing about Primal Therapy in the 70's and casually dismissing it, but now, after reading the website, I can say...We're saved, saved, I tell you! The Second Coming has already happened in the person of Arthur Janov, if you can believe these rapturous testimonials to him on his website...
--You have selflessly lain the greatest gifts at the feet of mankind...

--…Your contribution to psychology is at the very least a part of what caused society to become more open…

--Would that the earth be fortunate enough to have Primal available to every inhabitant we as a species might survive.

Those aren't favourable comments from satisfied customers, they're cultish ravings of rabid followers. And even though John Lennon didn't finish his "treatment" and didn't seem interested in finishing it, Janov very unselflessly gets a lot of mileage out of his brief association with him.

There isn't a single indication of scientific merit for Primal Therapy on the website, but there are plenty of implications that there is, all worded to deflect potential legal action for making false claims:
--"...giving as much scientific and research basis to primal therapy (as a field) as possible…"

--"I like this inclusion of research findings from the neurobiological (or neurology) field…"

--"I will join the men and women from 21st century science and take part in this remarkable therapy, demonstrating the persistence and integrity of Dr. Janov."

Primal Therapy has the earmarks of a New Age "self-actualization" scheme. It targets those who are vulnerable and offers them a way out of their misery; it rejects traditional forms of sanctuary from the cruel world, such as, and especially, religion; and it implies that it has a scientific basis, therefore, it must be right. Behind it all is a megalomaniac with a whole swack of books and DVD's to sell. I'm surprised that anyone here, after reading their website, would even consider that there might be some validity to it.
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Old 16th April 2007, 07:46 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by noblecaboose View Post
John Lennon was one of their patients
I don't think their therapy worked. He's still dead. Do you think one of us should break it to them?
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Old 16th April 2007, 08:40 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Gnu Ordure View Post
You mean because it's not a very good album, Robert ?

Surely not, but tastes differ, I suppose.

Anyway, Janov wasn't sayng that his undoubted influence on the album was "proof that their therapy works" - just that it helped Lennon compose the album, which is true.

And given that 37 years later, the album is considered by Rolling Stone magazine to be the 22nd Greatest Album Ever Made, I think Janov is entitled to feel some degree of satisfaction about his contribution to it.

Personally, I love it, harrowing though it is in parts.

Gnu.

Hey! Janov can take no credit for that album whatsoever. He's a certified ellron who happened to be one among the many people Lennon saw during his life -- are they all going to credit themselves for having influenced John?

Janov is a leech with a penchant for self-aggrandizement and a rudimentary knowledge of marketing. Oh, and he knows what buttons to push to make you cry, just like every other charismatic con that ever existed.

M.
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Old 16th April 2007, 02:49 PM   #23
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Hi, everyone--a longtime lurker here with a bit to add regarding the original question/thread title. About myself: I'm a psychology professor who wrote a skeptical reference book (Popular Psychology: An Encyclopedia, from Greenwood Press, if anyone cares), and in that process I did some digging into just how bizarre these folks are. Here's a very brief excerpt from my entry on Janov (it's only a paragraph, and I'm the author, so no intellectual property problems here)--note the remarkable similarities to Dianetics/Scientology:


Given the questionable, indeed bizarre, theoretical underpinning of primal therapy, the absence of controlled scientific evidence is unsurprising. Consider, for example, the claim that trauma associated with conception can be a major source of Pain in adulthood. Primal therapists teach that if a child is conceived through rape, the egg and sperm are imprinted with specific feelings about the incident and pass this memory along to all cells of the child’s body. This will of course cause lifelong pain and anxiety, until the patient learns (with the help of primal therapy, of course) to release those feelings. The idea that individual cells, especially gametes, actually possess either feelings or memories, and are furthermore able to pass those feelings along to all subsequent cells they produce, thus leading to psychological trauma felt by the organism as a whole, is sufficiently ludicrous, on many levels, to be undeserving of any attempt at systematic criticism other than to say that it is completely incompatible with what is known about memory and feelings, to say nothing of cellular biology.
Janov has more recently attempted (in his latest book, The Biology of Love ) to connect his ideas to more conventional knowledge in neuroscience, in the hope of gaining greater scientific legitimacy. In agreeing with neurochemists that becoming emotionally upset and screaming can cause a release of endorphins, which of course will produce a feeling of well-being, he actually harms his case more than he helps it. This phenomenon is also well-known among athletes, after all, and there is no reason to believe that the “runner’s high” is associated with the release of repressed trauma. The strenuous activity provides a complete explanation of the phenomenon.
The Primal Scream was published more than thirty years ago, and primal therapy is essentially unaltered from its earliest state—while undeniably an inventive and intriguing approach to psychotherapy, it lacks the underpinning of scientific validation which potential clients ought to be able to expect at this point in our history.



Just my $.02.
Luis
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Old 16th April 2007, 03:07 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Quackwatch dictionary
primal therapy (primal scream therapy):

Psychotherapeutic method developed by child psychologist Arthur Janov, author of The Primal Scream (1970). Primal therapists dispense with analysis and purportedly attempt to resolve neuroses through a process of painful catharsis. Janov maintained that, to be effective, psychotherapy must uncover repressed "primal pains" -- unpleasant events undergone not only during childhood and infancy, but even in the fetal and embryonic stages. According to Janov, patients can dispel "primal pains" only by re-experiencing them and giving them physical expression (e.g., by screaming). The crux of primal therapy is rebirthing.
Not just woo, but old woo.

Linky - http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...onary/mdp.html
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Old 17th April 2007, 12:00 PM   #25
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Janov is a leech with a penchant for self-aggrandizement and a rudimentary knowledge of marketing. Oh, and he knows what buttons to push to make you cry, just like every other charismatic con that ever existed.
Don't hold back, Moochie, tell us how you really feel.

You really hate these people, don't you ?

I'm really curious about what this guy Farrant did to you; it must have pretty bad. In which case you have my sympathy.

No problem if you don't wish to tell us, I appreciate it's a very personal question.

I still think you're wrong on the Lennon question, though. I know he had many influences, but it is generally acknowledged by musical historians that Janov had a significant effect on Lennon while he was making that one album.

My online musical encyclopedia of choice, allmusic.com, says this:

"Inspired by his primal scream therapy with Dr. Arthur Janov, Lennon created a harrowing set of unflinchingly personal songs, laying out all of his fears and angers for everyone to hear."

Not just an influence, but an inspiration, apparently...

I rather think that Lennon confirmed this, when he chose to conclude side one, track one, of his first solo album after leaving the Beatles, with a long series of harrowing screams...




Annoying though it may be, Janov's name will go down in history.

Your only consolation, Moochie, is that it will be as a foot-note in Lennon's story, rather than "in his own write." (heh-heh, geddit?).


Gnu.

Last edited by Gnu Ordure; 17th April 2007 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 17th April 2007, 12:16 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Gnu Ordure View Post
...a long series of harrowing screams...
Ono.
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Old 17th April 2007, 12:52 PM   #27
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Hi, everyone--a longtime lurker here with a bit to add regarding the original question/thread title. About myself: I'm a psychology professor who wrote a skeptical reference book (Popular Psychology: An Encyclopedia, from Greenwood Press, if anyone cares),
Hi Luis.

Can I offer some unsolicited advice ? I may be wrong, because I'm new here myself, but if someone introduces themselves to a forum, and immediately mentions a product which may be bought, some people might doubt their motives....

Do you see what I mean ?

In your case, since the rest of your post was most interesting, relevant and informative, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Even to the extent of giving your book another mention.


I agree with you on the dodgy theoretical basis for PT. But are you familiar with the research that suggests that to a certain extent, the theory of a particular therapy is irrelevent to any effect ?

The idea is that all therapies have certain attributes in common, and it is these attributes, rather than other aspects such as the theory, which are responsible for effects.

For example, all therapists give their clients/patients their undivided attention. And even if they do nothing else, if they just sit listening silently, but still paying attention, this may have a beneficial effect on the speaker.

And a simple theoretical explanaton for this might be that attention is a fundamental human need (which it is, it's absolutely essential in early child development, as I'm sure you know), so adults still like it when others pay attention to them, and it feels good.



Gnu.

Last edited by Gnu Ordure; 17th April 2007 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 17th April 2007, 01:22 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Gnu Ordure
...a long series of harrowing screams...
Ono.


Ah yes, Jeff.

I am aware of the alternative theory that far from re-living birth trauma, he was merely reacting to the prospect of waking up every single day for the rest of his life next to Yoko.

A tad uncharitable, I feel, but the idea has merit.

Last edited by Gnu Ordure; 17th April 2007 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 18th April 2007, 05:11 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Gnu Ordure View Post
Hi Luis.

I agree with you on the dodgy theoretical basis for PT. But are you familiar with the research that suggests that to a certain extent, the theory of a particular therapy is irrelevent to any effect ?

The idea is that all therapies have certain attributes in common, and it is these attributes, rather than other aspects such as the theory, which are responsible for effects.
Gnu.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to plug the book, really. It's a reference book and too damned expensive anyway. Sorry if I gave that impression.

I agree that many therapies appear to work about equally well, thanks to non-specific effects.
In your description of these effects, I think the key phrase is "to a certain extent." These sorts of effects (someone pays attention to you and you feel a little better, + most illness is self-limiting, etc.) lead people to think all kinds of useless things help (craniosacral therapy and homeopathy immediately spring to mind).
To someone like a primal therapist, however, the theory matters a great deal. Their claim isn't that coming to them may result in you feeling a little better. It is that the cells of your body contain the Pain (always capitalized) and that they can be made to release it through screaming. Since the Pain is stored throughout the body, the screaming can resolve (according to some of Janov's writings) serious organic disease as well.

Nonspecific effects of therapy (the reason why, in large meta-analyses of psychotherapy, one therapy seems as effective--or more honestly, ineffective--as another, when minor anxieties/neuroses/etc. are being treated) work well to make some people feel less anxious/shy/depressed/fearful/whatever, but the thing these sorts of folks NEVER claim up front is: If you come to us, you'll feel a little better for a while, and we've made up an elaborate reason why.
If they said that, I'd have no problem with them.

Since they instead provide an explanation that requires that much of what we know about both cellular biology and memory be incorrect, and are now attempting to shove this round peg of theory into the square world of neuroscience, well, frankly, they bother me.

I'm especially concerned (given your statements about all therapies working to some extent) by the primal therapy people's frequent assertions in their materials and online presence that only they can really help you.
Again, the parallels to/outright-stealing-from Scientology jump out at me.
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Old 18th April 2007, 11:13 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Gnu Ordure View Post
Ah yes, Jeff.

I am aware of the alternative theory that far from re-living birth trauma, he was merely reacting to the prospect of waking up every single day for the rest of his life next to Yoko.

A tad uncharitable, I feel, but the idea has merit.
Hey! I like Yoko!
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Old 18th April 2007, 11:50 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Gnu Ordure View Post
Don't hold back, Moochie, tell us how you really feel.

You really hate these people, don't you ?
Hate? That's way too harsh for the derision I feel for charlatans of all sorts.

Quote:
I'm really curious about what this guy Farrant did to you; it must have pretty bad. In which case you have my sympathy.

No problem if you don't wish to tell us, I appreciate it's a very personal question.
Farrant did, precisely, nothing. He ran a scam operation in which he had people that'd been through the "therapy" act as "therapists."

Indirectly, he and his operation added immeasurably to my education as a skeptic.

Quote:
I still think you're wrong on the Lennon question, though. I know he had many influences, but it is generally acknowledged by musical historians that Janov had a significant effect on Lennon while he was making that one album.
I think you really underestimate Lennon.

Quote:
My online musical encyclopedia of choice, allmusic.com, says this:

"Inspired by his primal scream therapy with Dr. Arthur Janov, Lennon created a harrowing set of unflinchingly personal songs, laying out all of his fears and angers for everyone to hear."

Not just an influence, but an inspiration, apparently...

I rather think that Lennon confirmed this, when he chose to conclude side one, track one, of his first solo album after leaving the Beatles, with a long series of harrowing screams...
Lennon's time with Janov was extremely short. John took what he wanted and moved on. If you know any "primal screamers," most have great difficulty in moving on. My take on it is that Lennon saw through this prick in 6/8 time.

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Annoying though it may be, Janov's name will go down in history.
As the consumate fraud that he is.

Quote:
Your only consolation, Moochie, is that it will be as a foot-note in Lennon's story, rather than "in his own write." (heh-heh, geddit?).
Yeah, I "geddit."

My other consolation is that people will be much more aware of charismatic cons like Janov.


M.
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Old 18th April 2007, 12:02 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Gnu Ordure View Post
Hi Luis.

Can I offer some unsolicited advice ? I may be wrong, because I'm new here myself, but if someone introduces themselves to a forum, and immediately mentions a product which may be bought, some people might doubt their motives....

Do you see what I mean ?

In your case, since the rest of your post was most interesting, relevant and informative, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Even to the extent of giving your book another mention.


I agree with you on the dodgy theoretical basis for PT. But are you familiar with the research that suggests that to a certain extent, the theory of a particular therapy is irrelevent to any effect ?

The idea is that all therapies have certain attributes in common, and it is these attributes, rather than other aspects such as the theory, which are responsible for effects.

For example, all therapists give their clients/patients their undivided attention. And even if they do nothing else, if they just sit listening silently, but still paying attention, this may have a beneficial effect on the speaker.

And a simple theoretical explanaton for this might be that attention is a fundamental human need (which it is, it's absolutely essential in early child development, as I'm sure you know), so adults still like it when others pay attention to them, and it feels good.



Gnu.

I don't think Janov, et al, changed the generally acknowledged paradigm that a third of psychotherapists' clients get better, a third don't change, and a third get worse.

My experience of "primalers" certainly bears this out. One that I know went on to become a psychologist via an accredited university course; many splintered off and went deeper into woo-woo territory (past lives, etc.), and some went on to become life-long "patients."

In the case of John Lennon, I figure he remained the same, and used his experience to make an interesting, if flawed, album.

M.
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Old 18th April 2007, 07:17 PM   #33
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Quote:
Their claim ... (snip) .... is that the cells of your body contain the Pain (always capitalized) and that they can be made to release it through screaming.
I agree Luis, the science is dubious, to say the least.

What I'm suggesting is that the process of undergoing PT might be beneficial, even if the theory might be (to coin a phrase) bollocks.

And since I have no actual idea of what undergoing PT might involve, beyond screaming, this really reduces to the possibility that ....

... "Having a good scream might make you feel better."

And that might be true, right ? ....

What do people do in the House of Horror, or on the Big Dipper ? They scream. And it feels good. And then they pay to do it again.


Conclusion ?


It's good to scream.


But some of those rides are really expensive, y'know.


It might be cheaper to go a therapist and scream.




Gnu.

Last edited by Gnu Ordure; 18th April 2007 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 18th April 2007, 08:08 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Gnu Ordure View Post
snip...But are you familiar with the research that suggests that to a certain extent, the theory of a particular therapy is irrelevent to any effect ?

The idea is that all therapies have certain attributes in common, and it is these attributes, rather than other aspects such as the theory, which are responsible for effects.

For example, all therapists give their clients/patients their undivided attention. And even if they do nothing else, if they just sit listening silently, but still paying attention, this may have a beneficial effect on the speaker..snip
Anyone fancy some placebo and TLC?
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Old 18th April 2007, 08:11 PM   #35
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No. Wrong thread.

Last edited by catbasket; 18th April 2007 at 08:23 PM. Reason: Far too late at night
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Old 19th April 2007, 03:09 AM   #36
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interesting artilce here:

http://www.primaltherapy.com/GrandDelusions/GD99.htm
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Old 19th April 2007, 03:53 AM   #37
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YES!!! (screamed primally)


http://www.ncahf.org/nl/2001/7-8.html
4th article, third paragraph.
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Old 19th April 2007, 07:47 AM   #38
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Also the 3rd article, though the URL in that has succumbed to web-rot.
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Old 19th April 2007, 08:08 AM   #39
Professor Yaffle
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Originally Posted by metube View Post
I skim read this for about 30 seconds and then i realised the author was talking about Freudian psychoanalysis being refined and scientifically tested as the basis for the scientific paradigm of psychotherapy.

Then I stopped reading.
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Old 30th June 2007, 09:25 AM   #40
John Smith
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debunking primal therapy website

There is a website out there debunking primal therapy, although I can't type the link in here, you will have to google it.
I am the author and would love feedback from you guys.
By the way you guys are good.
I have experience of primal therapy, and confirm that it does have all the hallmarks of a pseudoscience. And all my cohorts who went through it with me either had a placebo experience or got worse.
Needs clinical testing to either show some use for something (it's possible, I guess), and to test for iatrogenic effects. The grand claims of Dr Janov will continue until we can pin them down on this. They say it is better than all other therapies (totally false I think), and we have to get them to show the proof in the pudding.

Last edited by John Smith; 30th June 2007 at 09:31 AM. Reason: clinical testing remark
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