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#41 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,110
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I think the point of disagreement between the arguments you and Billy are making in this thread is that Billy has no intention of committing an atrocity against the people who committed the atrocity against this girl.
Yes atrocities are generally preceded by the dehumanisation of the victims of the atrocity but that does not imply that dehumanisation leads to the atrocity. I hope we could all agree that: a) It is not desirable for people to behave as the perpetrators and bystanders behaved and in fact b) People ought to behave in a better manner c) The specific perpetrators and bystanders deserve punishment. If that is the case, then we simply have a semantic disagreement as to whether appropriate behaviour should be labelled civilized and those who did not behave appropriately should be labelled uncivilized. Does this help? |
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#42 |
Banned
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
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Interestingly, I only care for one label for those who did or stood and watched it. Dead,slowly.
And for anyone who thinks I have not thought this out pretty thoroughly, as with abortion (for) and atheist (for) I have believed this way with no break since the mid-to-late 1950's and have heard/read nothing that shook me on these in the remaining 47-8 years. And I have heard and read a lot in that time. |
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#43 |
High Priest of Ed
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,823
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If there were a lynching today, wouldn't it be unequivocally condemned? Would anyone frantically attempt to find a similar atrocity in another culture in order to demonstrate that it wasn’t so bad?
This is silly. The shock and outrage expressed here is expressed at the behavior, not at the ethnicity of the people committing the behavior. It would be expressed at the behavior no matter where in the world it happened. A girl was brutally murdered by a mob. The mob is not dehumanized by the people who find their actions terrible, they dehumanized themselves with behavior that placed themselves so far outside the bounds of what civilized people find acceptable. It would be just as shocking and draw the same outrage if it happened in London or New York City by white people of European descent. |
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#44 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,669
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#45 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,669
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That's one of the dumbest things I've ever seen someone post on this forum. And that means it's pretty dumb.
![]() The fact that I believe these people should be shot has nothing to do with "in group/out group splits". If they were Caucasian Americans I would believe the same thing. It has nothing to do with their race, nationality or even religion. It has to do with their ACTIONS. They murdered a innocent girl in cold blood and they should be shot for doing so. I don't need to dehumanize them. They did that themselves. |
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#46 |
Banned
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#47 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,669
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No one's dehumanizing them. They dehumanized themselves. Moreover, Our opposition to them has nothing to do with their race, nationality, ethnicity or religion. It has to do with the actions they have chosen to commit. The atrocious actions that makes them savages. Not their race, religion or nationality. Get it?
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#48 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,669
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#49 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,669
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Not all Iraqi's are like this. An argument can be made that the Iraqi's who want peace and democracy should be protected and these people punished and the only way this can happen is with our being involved in Iraq. Since clearly the Iraqi police at that scene need to be shot as well. |
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#50 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,669
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The only people doing the dehumanizing are these people themselves. The Nazi's didn't dehumanize the Jews. The couldn't. They could make it seem like they weren't equally human but in reality they were more human than the Nazi's. In this case I don't need to try to dehumanize these Savages, they've done it themselves. |
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#51 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,669
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AndyAndy defending murderous
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#52 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,669
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#53 |
King of the Pod People
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,586
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Dustin,
Listen to me very carefully. Stop me if you get confused. There are no "Islamic fascists" at work here. At all. The men who committed this barbaric crime are not Muslim in any way, shape, or form. They are Yazidi, a different religion altogether. She was being stoned because she was dating a Muslim. |
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#54 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,669
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#55 |
King of the Pod People
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,586
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#56 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,669
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#57 |
King of the Pod People
Join Date: Aug 2001
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#58 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,669
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It's disingenuous to quote only one thing I say in my post while ignoring the rest. None of my pronouncements said anything about the Yazidi people as a whole, merely this specific group of them. Including the Police officers and civilians who stood around and did nothing, who may or may not have been Yazidi. |
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#59 |
High Priest of Ed
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,823
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Have you?
Would it make any difference for the purpose of this discussion? If we were not talking about a Yazidi community murdering a teenage girl but were instead talking the savages that murdered Matthew Shepard, would anyone be suggesting that understanding the culture of the attackers in any way mitigates the crime? Would anyone be making silly semantic points over the use of the word "savage"? Would anyone be claiming that condemning the attackers was “dehumanizing” them? I don’t think so. |
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#60 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,804
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#61 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,804
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I understand his sentiment, though. Two wrongs don't make a right. We all know that. But on an emotional level, we all cry out for poetic justice. However, let me ask, would you have a problem with the police using lethal force to intervene in this situation? As in, they shoot the attackers to save the young woman. I wouldn't have a problem with it. |
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#62 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
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#63 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
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Yes I would have a problem with it as my first thought is that they should intervene to protect the person being attacked and arrest the attackers so that they can face justice.
However I do accept that sometimes that is not always going to be possible and that sometimes killing someone is necessary (I would avoid a phrase like "lethal force" as I think it tends to sanitise what actually happens). But that killing should always create "problems" for that society, i.e. be investigated and scrutinised so that it can be clear it was the appropriate option. |
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#64 |
Lackey
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Which I would say continues the idea in that society that violence is a legitimate way to solve issues.
For reform to work examples need to be created, an example would be showing that these people acted outside what is acceptable and therefore society will put them on trial, ensure that trial is fair and then (if guilty) pass an appropriate sentence on them. I've grown up with part of my society accepting that arbitary "rough justice" (which Members like fuelair advocate) i.e. shooting and knee capping was acceptable and the way to maintain "order" and "deter" people. I've seen at first hand the result of that - it perpetuates the misery, the suffering and the very behaviour it claims to be stopping. Only when the idea that is not acceptable no matter what the so called "rationale" and no matter who it is done to does change start to happen in that part of society. |
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#65 |
Illuminator
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#66 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 499
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We seen the ad’s on TV about the Kurd area is a different Iraq. Safer, more educated, a good investment…..
There is a lot on the line for them and this video is a major blow to them, even though the Kurds were not involved. Is there a possibility the Kurds may address the issue? Most likely violently? Possibly wiping out all Yazidi tribes in the Kurd sector of Iraq? |
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#67 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
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andyandy has not defended anybody (in this thread) who has committed a terrible and atrocious act. I think you need to re-read his posts.
No he doesn't - he, like I have done have discussed the wider implications of such an act and he has quite deftly pointed out that some of the reactions in this thread follow the same pattern that led to a situation where some people believed their actions were presumably acceptable or appropriate in some way. Don't forget one Member has stated that knee capping is a an acceptable and appropriate part of punishment on the way to being killed slowly and not only for the active participants but bystanders and so on. That is not equating the criticism of the act to the act itself - it is equating some similar human behaviour/motivation to some of the responses in this thread. No he doesn't. No he doesn't. |
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#68 |
Illuminator
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#69 |
Lackey
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I am not referring to war and the like, I am referring to the context of the violence that has been discussed in this thread.
Most "civilised" societies in the world consider capital punishment wrong. You really don't understand how such acts cause misery? Arbitrary justice by destroying someone's kneecaps either by bullets or blunt force? You don't understand that? I am astonished. I would suggest you perhaps try reading some articles about the Troubles and the continuing aftermath for people and the communities that have been subjected to such punishment. |
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#70 |
anthropomorphic ape
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 8,377
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"Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks." |
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#71 |
Lackey
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#72 |
anthropomorphic ape
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 8,377
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dustin your propensity for moronic comment is unequalled on JREF. Where did i amount a defence?
here?
Originally Posted by andyandy
here?
Originally Posted by andyandy
This merely requires a basic English comprehension ability.
Originally Posted by dustin
Originally Posted by andyandy
Originally Posted by dustin
Originally Posted by dustin
Originally Posted by andyandy
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"Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks." |
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#73 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 26,704
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You're assuming that your POV is "right".
Just to summarise: It was an appalling act by any standards of human decency and demands justice. But it would be very wrong of anyone to ascribe an incorrect reason for it happening. And it would be equally wrong to not act in a cool, fair and reasoned manner in dealing out that justice. |
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#74 |
Lackey
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#75 |
Illuminator
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#76 |
Illuminator
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#77 |
Lackey
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Don't understand your comment.
Yet you also say: "... Putting a bullet through their head would be the NICE thing to do. Ridding the world of their presence would do nothing accomplish good. ..." I don't - I "keep" bringing up knee capping and I do that because it has been proposed as a suitable part of these people's punishment. Try "northern ireland punishment kneecapping" as a search term in google. Also see http://news.ulster.ac.uk/releases/2000/272.html and read the report it is talking about. ETA: Also see: Northern Ireland: Are the Troubles Over? West Belfast's Biggest Issue? Punishment Beatings: A grip of fear |
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#78 |
anthropomorphic ape
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 8,377
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5.43
Originally Posted by darat
Originally Posted by dustin
Originally Posted by dustin
edit. lol i've just noticed the delicious irony of a line in my previous post "Again you appear to lack a basic misunderstanding of English." oops ![]() |
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"Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks." |
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#79 |
Student
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 36
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The Royal Ulster Constabulary wasn't above being involved with (see, eg., here; the attack on Devenny and his daughters was especially perplexing and brutal) or watching on as attacks like these happened either.
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#80 |
Banned
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
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Actually, my statement was partially misinterpreted - the people who would be educated/deterred are the people who did the act or stood by without helping the girl. I have no certainty that any of the other primitives would make good decisions/choices in view of what happened (if all involved were killed). Terminal education only works for certain on an individual basis - the person terminated does not ever again perform the act that required the termination. It is a form of individualized instruction - for our educators in the audience. It has a simple but effective IEP.
![]() D> I understand the slime you are talking about - and understand that you may not understand a distinction. I do however. The kneecapping thugs are doing it over ideas - political and or religious. I do not advocate any harming of persons for their ideas - only for violent action against their own or against others who have different ideas. Everyone has a right to their own ideas/opinions and should not be hurt, killed, imprisoned for them - only actions should be punishable - and certain actions swiftly and certainly. The OP specifies an action that I would have no difficulty punishing. |
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