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Tags ray comfort , kirk cameron , rational response squad , kent hovind , creationists

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Old 21st May 2007, 01:46 PM   #1
Questioninggeller
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Ray Comfort offers $10,000 for a "transitional" fossil

Ray Comfort, church minister/Kirk Cameron's sidekick, has pulled a Kent Hovind. Hovind used to offer $250,000 for proof of evolution, but he is behind bars for the next 10 years for obstruction of justice and 57 other felonies. It appears Comfort has taken up the reins for creationist arguments/publicity stunts by offering prize money for "challenges."

Quote:
...
The $10,000 Offer

A transitional form (or missing link) is an example of one species “evolving” into another species. Excited scientists thought they had found one when they discovered “Archaeopteryx.” The fossil led to the theory that the dinosaurs did not become extinct, but rather all turned into birds. The Field Museum in Chicago displayed what was believed to be an archaeopteryx fossil on October 4-19, 1997. It was hailed as “Archaeopteryx: The Bird That Rocked the World.” However, Dr. Alan Feduccia (evolutionary biologist at the University of North Carolina), said, “Paleontologists have tried to turn Archaeopteryx into an earth-bound, feathered dinosaur. But it’s not. It is a bird, a perching bird. And no amount of ‘paleo-babble’ is going to change that.” [Science, February 5, 1993]. So here’s my challenge: I will give $10,000 to the first person who can prove to me that they have found a genuine living transitional form (a lizard that produced a bird, or a dog that produced kittens, or a sheep that produced a chicken, or even as Archaeopteryx—a dinosaur that produced a bird). Species do not cross, no matter how long you leave them. The whole of creation is proof that evolution is truly “a fairytale for grownups.”

Ray Comfort.

email proof@intelligentdesignversusevolution.com
Source: http://intelligentdesignversusevolut...arguments.html

Video of Comfort and Cameron on ABC's Nightline: http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3148940&page=1

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Old 21st May 2007, 01:54 PM   #2
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This is like offering $10K to anyone who can produce a motorcycle, then defining a motorcycle as a vehicle made of a combination of living tissue and mechanical parts. When you make your own convoluted definitions for something, you never have to worry about losing your money.
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Old 21st May 2007, 01:59 PM   #3
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More like giving $10K to anyone who can prove a paranormal claim.

Randi's is better, giving $1 Million, and he is open to more types of claims than dogs that can produce kittens and such.

Also, Ray does not understand what a transitional fossil is. Someone should give him the definition of 'Saltation'.
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Old 21st May 2007, 02:18 PM   #4
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Who else here had to slap their forehead as they read Ray Comfort's challenge? Can this guy really be that clueless? His description of a transitional form is just stupid!

I'll venture to guess that nobody will waste their time with his idiotic challenge (which, of course, will convince Ray Comfort that he's right because nobody has stepped forward with any proof).
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Old 21st May 2007, 02:28 PM   #5
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Funny thing--I just saw a published account of exactly the sort of thing he's looking for. Oddly enough, it also explains the crocoduck. Turns out the intermediate form is humans! Crocodile--> croc-man --> human --> bat-boy (same source) --> birds (the bible says bats are birds).

Can I have my 10,000 bucks now?
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Old 21st May 2007, 02:45 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by DrDisco View Post
This is like offering $10K to anyone who can produce a motorcycle, then defining a motorcycle as a vehicle made of a combination of living tissue and mechanical parts. When you make your own convoluted definitions for something, you never have to worry about losing your money.

Does that motorcycle have to have wheels?
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Old 21st May 2007, 03:12 PM   #7
Questioninggeller
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Originally Posted by Mercutio View Post
Funny thing--I just saw a published account of exactly the sort of thing he's looking for. Oddly enough, it also explains the crocoduck. Turns out the intermediate form is humans! Crocodile--> croc-man --> human --> bat-boy (same source) --> birds (the bible says bats are birds).

Can I have my 10,000 bucks now?
What makes it truly sad is the part in the Nightline debate when Cameron held up pictures of a crocodile/duck claiming scientists don't have proof of evolution. As discussed in this thread.

See Kirk holding up the picture at http://www.slate.com/id/2165986/ and quote:

Quote:
...At one point, Cameron, mocking the theory of evolution, held up a photo-illustration of a duck with the head of crocodile. Seeing this, Brian, stunned, could not help but mutter, "Oh. My. God."
Video (Ray Comfort is sitting on Cameron's left):

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

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Old 21st May 2007, 03:48 PM   #8
Mercutio
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But that is exactly what they want. Nothing less than a crocoduck (and a fertile one, at that) will win the prize.
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Old 21st May 2007, 04:01 PM   #9
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this is just as bogus as that other guy's challenge for evolution proof, where it basically boils down to needing proof of life arising out of nothing.

what a moron.
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Old 21st May 2007, 04:23 PM   #10
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I think Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort are indisputable proof that some humans are transitioning into dodos. Where's my money?
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Old 21st May 2007, 04:51 PM   #11
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Wait, he's offering $10K for a strawman? I should have lots of those....
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Old 21st May 2007, 05:45 PM   #12
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So do I get $10 for a plant that underwent polyploidy? This can result in a new species (crosses with the parent population are sterile) in a single generation.

So which is the "transitional" form he wants, the parent or the offspring? Wouldn't it take one of each (along with molecular proof that one is the parent of the other)?
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Old 21st May 2007, 06:21 PM   #13
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While the distinction is clear, I can't help but cringe that this thread reminds me of the woo threads criticizing the JREF challenge.
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Old 21st May 2007, 07:04 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
While the distinction is clear, I can't help but cringe that this thread reminds me of the woo threads criticizing the JREF challenge.
Well, there is one big difference. We're right.
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Old 21st May 2007, 07:08 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
While the distinction is clear, I can't help but cringe that this thread reminds me of the woo threads criticizing the JREF challenge.
Hmmm, I appreciate the concern, but it is not really. It looks a lot more like some opening shots, not closing dismissals.

I'd like someone to get some sort of public description from Comfort as to what HE thinks "evolution" is, and how "transitional fossils" figure in the fossil record. He needs to be made to show his working, put his "science" where his mouth is. Because it is obvious that he is simply making up some baloney strawman definition of his own design to support an unsupportable point.

You might also consider SERIOUSLY who his intended audience is. Seriously... If he is addressing skeptics and scientists, and he has even a particle of brain, he would know from the outset his proposal is utter crap. So it is likely he won't bother to engage with any of them in order to support his position, especially in public (because he will get publicly pounded).

However it is probably far more likely he is specifically addressing his own chosen audience...of semi-literate believers and brain-washed creationists, people who (fail to) think like Kirk Cameron all the time. In which case he will ignore any engagement requests from "science" and continue to use this as an opportunity to show that he is "right" and that no-one can refute him.

So can I suggest some other tactics besides direct confrontation might be more profitable in swaying him and his audience?
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Old 21st May 2007, 07:20 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Zep View Post
You might also consider SERIOUSLY who his intended audience is.
That is who i'm considering. I would expect the people who by the "crocoduck" to not understand the differences between the challenges. Which makes this thread (if it were to be linked on comfort's site) look like a silly woo thread.


Originally Posted by Zep View Post
So can I suggest some other tactics besides direct confrontation might be more profitable in swaying him and his audience?
Like what?
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Old 21st May 2007, 08:57 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
So do I get $10 for a plant that underwent polyploidy? This can result in a new species (crosses with the parent population are sterile) in a single generation.

So which is the "transitional" form he wants, the parent or the offspring? Wouldn't it take one of each (along with molecular proof that one is the parent of the other)?
I am guessing the only thing that would suffice is the fossil of a pregnant animal, with the fetus intact, carrying a completely new species.
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Old 21st May 2007, 09:10 PM   #18
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How do they explain things like ligers--(male lion crossed with female tiger)?--Clearly they have common ancestry-- or god was recycling dna?

Horses, donkeys, zebras and hybrids thereof?
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Old 21st May 2007, 09:22 PM   #19
Achán hiNidráne
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Quote:
The $10,000 Offer

A transitional form (or missing link) is an example of one species “evolving” into another species. Excited scientists thought they had found one when they discovered “Archaeopteryx.” The fossil led to the theory that the dinosaurs did not become extinct, but rather all turned into birds. The Field Museum in Chicago displayed what was believed to be an archaeopteryx fossil on October 4-19, 1997. It was hailed as “Archaeopteryx: The Bird That Rocked the World.” However, Dr. Alan Feduccia (evolutionary biologist at the University of North Carolina), said, “Paleontologists have tried to turn Archaeopteryx into an earth-bound, feathered dinosaur. But it’s not. It is a bird, a perching bird. And no amount of ‘paleo-babble’ is going to change that.” [Science, February 5, 1993]. So here’s my challenge: I will give $10,000 to the first person who can prove to me that they have found a genuine living transitional form (a lizard that produced a bird, or a dog that produced kittens, or a sheep that produced a chicken, or even as Archaeopteryx—a dinosaur that produced a bird). Species do not cross, no matter how long you leave them. The whole of creation is proof that evolution is truly “a fairytale for grownups.”

Ray Comfort.
Oh! Some fundie scumwad picked the wrong night to piss me off... even more than I currently am!

Let's have a look, shall we?

  • Does Archeopteryx have wings like modern birds. Yes.
  • Does Archeopteryx have a wishbone like modern birds. Yes.
  • Does Archeopteryx have feathers like modern birds? Yes.
On the other hand...
  • Do modern birds have teeth? No. Yet Archeopteryx does.
  • Do modern birds have fingers as part of their wings? No. Yet Archeopteryx does.
  • Do modern birds have bony tails? No. Yet Archeopteryx does.
Theropods and other smaller meat eating dinosaurs of the age have these and other features. Not to mention other fossilized species of proto-birds as well as feathered dinosaurs have the same characteristics.

Hmmmm... let's see. Looks pretty transitional to me. I expect my money in small, unmarked bills. Not that I expect them to actually pay up.

Fracking Christards make me sick. And people wonder why I despise them so much.
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Old 21st May 2007, 10:52 PM   #20
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Quote:
I will give $10,000 to the first person who can prove to me that they have found a genuine living transitional form (a lizard that produced a bird, or a dog that produced kittens, or a sheep that produced a chicken, or even as Archaeopteryx—a dinosaur that produced a bird). Species do not cross, no matter how long you leave them.
Hmmm....yes, dopey. That's just what they do. Given enough time.

What they don't do, is "produce" a very different species from one generation to another. And the theory of Evolution doesn't say that they do.

The latter, of course, being the crux of the matter.
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Old 21st May 2007, 11:11 PM   #21
JoeTheJuggler
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Originally Posted by CFLarsen View Post
What they don't do, is "produce" a very different species from one generation to another. And the theory of Evolution doesn't say that they do.
In fact, speciation can happen in one generation. That's why I mentioned polyploidy in plant speciation. This isn't a slow accumulation of point mutations, but rather doubling or quadrupling etc. of the number of chromosomes. This happens (at least doubling) in a single generation. Backcrosses to the parent population are sterile (so by definition, the offspring is a new species). It's very common in plants, especially angiosperms.

Humans have even done this on purpose with food plants. (Usually the polyploid species are larger--larger cells, larger overall structures--than the 1n species.)

Seriously--what do I need to do to collect the $10K?
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Old 21st May 2007, 11:25 PM   #22
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A croco-duck.


Alternate tactics: Well, I would try to target his intended audience with supported facts, not target Comfort himself. Because even if he knows full well he is the wrongest kind of wrong, he still won't admit it publicly in front of his target audience. So you need to bypass Comfort (and Kirk) entirely - reach his own audience NOT through him. Then he can waffle all he likes, but he will be the one looking like a dork, not us.

Last edited by Zep; 21st May 2007 at 11:27 PM.
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Old 21st May 2007, 11:51 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
So do I get $10 for a plant that underwent polyploidy? This can result in a new species (crosses with the parent population are sterile) in a single generation.

So which is the "transitional" form he wants, the parent or the offspring? Wouldn't it take one of each (along with molecular proof that one is the parent of the other)?
I challenge you to claim this as proof. Seriously, do it! He will say "that's not macroevolution", to which you should reply "define macroevolution", and watch the fancy footwork.
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Old 21st May 2007, 11:52 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
In fact, speciation can happen in one generation. That's why I mentioned polyploidy in plant speciation. This isn't a slow accumulation of point mutations, but rather doubling or quadrupling etc. of the number of chromosomes. This happens (at least doubling) in a single generation. Backcrosses to the parent population are sterile (so by definition, the offspring is a new species). It's very common in plants, especially angiosperms.

Humans have even done this on purpose with food plants. (Usually the polyploid species are larger--larger cells, larger overall structures--than the 1n species.)

Seriously--what do I need to do to collect the $10K?
Note that Ray talks about animals....
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Old 22nd May 2007, 12:30 AM   #25
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Sorry, Claus, but Ray simply babbles about animals...today. If cornered, he will simply shift the goalposts, deny he ever mentioned the crocoduck stuff, waffle and weave, make shaite up, whatever.

He will say whatever is necessary to SOUND convincing to his thick followers, even if it is a blatant pile of wombat doo's to the rest of the educated human race.
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Old 22nd May 2007, 12:34 AM   #26
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"Babbles"...yeah, better description.
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Old 22nd May 2007, 05:22 AM   #27
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This guy is using an old falacious woo tactics. Its something like

"Science is not sure of its own knoweledge"

Here are the instructions:
1. Look for a theory or part of it that is related to the main subject you are in disagreement with.
2. Now search some work where a researcher reaches a different conclusion. Never mind if the work is decades old, been demonstrated as wrong or is part of a minoritary view. It suits your needs and that all that matters. Never mind also that the scientific methodology actually has a routine that involves discussions between opposing points of view. Never mind these discussions are one of the reasons of our scientific and technological progress. Never mind religions and woo credos are anything but open to questioning of their dogmas.
3. Use what you found at (2) to attack the main subject, usually with sweeping generalizations, cherry-picking of data and quotes and ignorance of the scientific method.

Many posters right here at JREF use or used these tactics. And more than once, always tinking they were being very smart, and delivering a major blow against the evil godless close-minded skeptics. The outcome? Their rear ends handled down to them at a silver plate.

URGH! Having a very graphic imagination is a disadvantage sometimes...
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Old 22nd May 2007, 05:35 AM   #28
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You are all missing the biggest hurdle in this challenge, and it's one that Randi is careful to avoid from his:

Quote:
I will give $10,000 to the first person who can prove to me
That's why Randi makes sure he has nothing to do with the tests, just agreement on what constitutes a positive result.

Comfort can just say "No, That's not proof".
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Old 22nd May 2007, 05:37 AM   #29
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Seems to me that he's offering $10,000 if you can come up with a chimera. Are there any really good taxidermists who want to take up the challenge?

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Old 22nd May 2007, 05:43 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Orangutan View Post
You are all missing the biggest hurdle in this challenge, and it's one that Randi is careful to avoid from his:

That's why Randi makes sure he has nothing to do with the tests, just agreement on what constitutes a positive result.

Comfort can just say "No, That's not proof".
So I wonder what he will respond with if challenged to publicly agree on what constitutes a fair test for use in his challenge. I will bet he will run miles...

That's the key to this, and one that the JREF Challenge relies on: Public, open, scientific, and scrupulously fair trials. I can't see Comfort's challenge meeting ANY of those criteria.
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Old 22nd May 2007, 08:04 AM   #31
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His challenge should read "$10,000.00 for proof of an imaginary transitional fossil*.

*Actual transitional fossils are not eligible for prize. "

I'll give Ray Comfort $10,000.00 if he'll just go all the way with a banana on camera. That last video was such a tease.

I'm still pretty convinced he's staging the world's best parody.
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Old 22nd May 2007, 08:25 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Juustin View Post
I'm still pretty convinced he's staging the world's best parody.
Poe's Law ftw.
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Old 22nd May 2007, 08:26 AM   #33
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Typical tactic: Quoting Fedducia out of context. Fedducia may hold the unpopular and rapidly dying view that modern birds did not evolve from dinosaurs, but he is most definitely an evolutionist.
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
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Old 22nd May 2007, 08:42 AM   #34
Earthborn
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Would he even be able to verify the authenticity of a fossil? On every fossil trade you can get very realistic replicas, some of them good enough to fool the best paleontologists for some time. Would he be able to know why the fossil nest of kitten eggs I might send him, wasn't real?
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Old 22nd May 2007, 09:16 AM   #35
JoeTheJuggler
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How about a tetraploid rat?
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Old 22nd May 2007, 11:47 AM   #36
Kilgore Trout
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Maybe this coelacanth will qualify? Ray may like that one in particular to attempt to show that humans and dinosaurs coexisted.
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Old 22nd May 2007, 12:08 PM   #37
Correa Neto
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Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
Maybe this coelacanth will qualify? Ray may like that one in particular to attempt to show that humans and dinosaurs coexisted.
Nope.

I bet even an Ambulocetus will be of no help...
http://www.neoucom.edu/DEPTS/ANAT/Th...Ambulocet.html
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Old 22nd May 2007, 12:24 PM   #38
Wavicle
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Originally Posted by tsg View Post
Wait, he's offering $10K for a strawman? I should have lots of those....
Actually I think he's offering $10K for proof that evolution is wrong. If a dog gave birth to a cat, that'd pretty well crush our theory as it stands.
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Old 22nd May 2007, 12:26 PM   #39
KingMerv00
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Originally Posted by Juustin View Post
I'm still pretty convinced he's staging the world's best parody.
Bah, he lacks the commitment of Hovind. That man is the Andy Kaufman of our time.
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Old 22nd May 2007, 01:52 PM   #40
Questioninggeller
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Would a platypus win the "challenge"?
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