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Old 7th November 2007, 04:18 PM   #881
beachnut
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9/11 truth is not love, just lies.

Originally Posted by Depris View Post
I am not a supporter of swindlers, con artists, or the uneducated person that supports them. Additionally, I understand the scientific method and appreciate the concept of proof. Nevertheless, there are things in life, while although true, do not have much proof. Love is a very good example...

The movie brings up key points:
Was was the head of the 9/11 commission a close friend and professional associate of the people they were investigating?
Why are some of the hijackers still alive?
Why was the bin laden family not investigated?
Why would their be career IRS agents and Police officers who would resign after 20 years of service because they think something is very wrong... if nothing is wrong?
Total bs.

If you have some facts present them. This is not philosophy or love! You have to have facts. Your pile is as bad as all other piles of BS of 9/11 truth.

Facts, not wild ideas.
Quote:
“Imagination is more important than knowledge.” - Albert Einstein
He does not mean to make up lies about 9/11 and just use idiot ideas to spread your lies. Bad use of great ideas.

Last edited by beachnut; 7th November 2007 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 7th November 2007, 04:24 PM   #882
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Originally Posted by Depris View Post
“Isn't it a little naive to think that the government is capable of not only committing this heinous act but has the ability to cover it up? How could the government suppress and control hundreds of thousands of people into perpetuating such a conspiracy?” (this is not word for word but that was the general meaning behind his statements)

The problem with that philosophy is that it relies on the fact that hundreds of thousands of people would be needed... this is not the case.. only a handful of people in key positions would be needed.
This is absolutely untrue and could only be believed by someone that's never worked either in government or the private sector.

Everyone has to answer to someone. Outside of movies, it's simply not possible to run a secret government from your office without any of your subordinates knowing about it. You're not playing a video game, you're manipulating real people who ask real questions and won't always follow every order to the letter.
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Old 7th November 2007, 04:28 PM   #883
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Originally Posted by Depris View Post
The movie brings up key points:
Was was the head of the 9/11 commission a close friend and professional associate of the people they were investigating?
He wasn't. Tom Kean is not a close friend or professional associate of any Al Qaeda members, nor is Philip Zelikow, if that is to whom you are referring. Do you see how you've slipped into the CT mindset right from the beginning? You assume this was an investigation into the culpability of the Bush Administration.

Quote:
Why are some of the hijackers still alive?
I'll be hearing that one on my deathbed.

Quote:
Why was the bin laden family not investigated?
Because he had been publically disowned by them over a decade ago?

Quote:
Why would their be career IRS agents and Police officers who would resign after 20 years of service because they think something is very wrong... if nothing is wrong?
Got somebody in mind?

Quote:
The problem with that philosophy is that it relies on the fact that hundreds of thousands of people would be needed... this is not the case.. only a handful of people in key positions would be needed.
It always starts out as only a handful, but everytime somebody needs to be added to the conspiracy theory it grows, especially when it comes to the "coverup", where the entire mainstream media are implicated.

Quote:
My belief is that the government either knew of 9/11 and did not act on it or committed it themselves. In my mind arguing about minor details is not only a waste of time .. from both sides.. but it misses the overall point.
Make up your mind and let us know which one you want to go with.

(Long digression about "cool kids" snipped.)

Quote:
I find that most of the people on this forum (including penn and randi) are usually rude and close minded towards people whom don't think like them. They only “debate” from a standpoint of being intellectually superior (majorly FALSE.) and a certainty that what they believe is correct above all others.
Is Penn Gillette a member of this forum?

Welcome to the forum! You have an opportunity to learn much here.
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Old 7th November 2007, 04:38 PM   #884
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Originally Posted by Depris View Post


I find that most of the people on this forum (including penn and randi) are usually rude and close minded towards people whom don't think like them. They only “debate” from a standpoint of being intellectually superior (majorly FALSE.) and a certainty that what they believe is correct above all others.

Thing is, it IS intellectually superior to base your answers on science, VERIFIABLE evidence, and objective research (that is, not letting politics or other personal beliefs influence the outcomes) than it is to give equal weight to every idea or position no matter how loopy because that somehow fits into a wildly incorrect definition of "open-minded."

That's not being open-minded, that's being a fantasist. And there's nothing wrong with that... until you come to an educational forum and try to pass that silliness off as legitimate.
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-lapman describing every twoofer on the internet

Last edited by Drudgewire; 7th November 2007 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 7th November 2007, 04:40 PM   #885
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I'm just saying its possible despite whatever evidence there is.
And you are wrong. You do not even know you are wrong. 11th sense
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The bottom line is: every facet of society ... whether its business, a criminal gang, politics, whatever... is ultimately controlled by a handful of people... thats how a “chain of command” works. One guy directs orders to someone below ... who directs them to others.. who directs them to others.. etc. Like a pyramid.
Someone is paranoid! Showing lack of experience, and pure tripe. Welcome; bring facts, not BS.

Last edited by beachnut; 7th November 2007 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 7th November 2007, 04:46 PM   #886
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Hi, Depris. Welcome to the forums.

Originally Posted by Depris View Post
I am not a supporter of swindlers, con artists, or the uneducated person that supports them. Additionally, I understand the scientific method and appreciate the concept of proof. Nevertheless, there are things in life, while although true, do not have much proof. Love is a very good example of this.
Love is a very bad example of that. There is abundant proof that such a thing as love exists, as well as very well mapped areas of the brain that show where emotions leading to feelings of love originate, and there are scores of studies that tell us a great deal about the physiological and cultural bases for love.

Quote:
Now while I do not condone the aspects of 9/11 conspiracy designed to promote illogical thought for profit, the fact that I am not only highly intelligent but also what I call “street smart” guides my belief that there is more to the official explanation.

Rather than focus on the buildings themselves and anything related to fires, eyewitness accounts, or angles of fall... I think its better to focus on the human aspect of it.

The movie brings up key points:
Are you agreeing with these points, Depris?
Quote:
Was was the head of the 9/11 commission a close friend and professional associate of the people they were investigating?
The 9/11 Commission wasn't "the investigation." The criminal investigation into 9/11 was done by thousands of people in dozens of law enforcement and intelligence agencies, worldwide. The 9/11 Commission report was primarily a summary of these investigations, a look at failures that should be corrected, and a list of recommendations to effect such corrections.

Quote:
Why are some of the hijackers still alive?
There is absolutely no evidence that they are, and there are mountains of evidence that they're dead. Please see this page of 911myths.com.

Quote:
Why was the bin laden family not investigated?
They were. There is no demonstrated connection of complicity between the bin Ladens who were in the U.S. on 9/11 and Osama. Keep in mind that Osama was disowned by his family because of his activities against Saudi Arabia.

Quote:
Why would their be career IRS agents and Police officers who would resign after 20 years of service because they think something is very wrong... if nothing is wrong?
(It's "there.") Depris, the question is: why has no one, anywhere, presented evidence of U.S. complicity in the 9/11 attacks?

Quote:
Something I remember Penn bringing up on ********:

“Isn't it a little naive to think that the government is capable of not only committing this heinous act but has the ability to cover it up? How could the government suppress and control hundreds of thousands of people into perpetuating such a conspiracy?” (this is not word for word but that was the general meaning behind his statements)
Perhaps you should have paid more attention to these words by Penn Jillette in the same show:
Quote:
"Nobody can convince me?" Bells should go off in your head when you hear those words. That's his ******** idea of skepticism. A real skeptic demands to be convinced – with evidence. We should be skeptical of our government, but we shouldn't just make **** up."
Quote:
The problem with that philosophy is that it relies on the fact that hundreds of thousands of people would be needed... this is not the case.. only a handful of people in key positions would be needed.
Now you're into full-blown nuttery. I get the feeling that you're brand new at this and haven't taken the time to think through the implications of what you're saying. In addition, by making that claim you're saying that all of these people and organizations were, and are, utterly fooled, or are complicit.

Quote:
I often hear that it's up to the people making “wild claims” to back up their standpoint. I do not believe that the idea of a few people with a lot of resources working together for their own benefit without acknowledgment of outside interference is beyond the realm of possibility. More than that, not only is it possible but its highly luckily... and thats whether you are looking at the simplest form of social interaction... the schoolyard... or the largest form... international politics.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what this means. Also, I think you meant to say "likely," not "luckily."

Quote:
My belief is that the government either knew of 9/11 and did not act on it or committed it themselves. In my mind arguing about minor details is not only a waste of time .. from both sides.. but it misses the overall point.
When you examine every conspiracist claim and find that evidence supporting it is nonexistent, that is both a good use of time and highly significant. That so many people will believe something so important, based on no evidence, really matters, Depris. And that's why the JREF and this forum exist.

[Irrelevant philosophizing deleted]

Quote:
I'm not saying our own government killed 3000 people or didn't kill 3000 people... I'm just saying its possible despite whatever evidence there is.
Do you agree that a rational person does not make assumptions or accusations of mass murder, without evidence? Nor does he absolve others who are shown by a mountain of evidence to be guilty of that crime, without equal or superior contradictory evidence. Agreed?

[Irrelevant speech deleted]

Depris, this forum is populated largely by people versed in critical thinking. Uninformed opinions and arguments from incredulity aren't going to cut it here. But this is a great place to learn. Once again, welcome.
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Last edited by Gravy; 7th November 2007 at 05:02 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 7th November 2007, 04:51 PM   #887
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Originally Posted by Depris View Post
I am not a supporter of swindlers, con artists, or the uneducated person that supports them. Additionally, I understand the scientific method and appreciate the concept of proof. Nevertheless, there are things in life, while although true, do not have much proof. Love is a very good example of this. Now while I do not condone the aspects of 9/11 conspiracy designed to promote illogical thought for profit, the fact that I am not only highly intelligent but also what I call “street smart” guides my belief that there is more to the official explanation.

Rather than focus on the buildings themselves and anything related to fires, eyewitness accounts, or angles of fall... I think its better to focus on the human aspect of it.

The movie brings up key points:
Was was the head of the 9/11 commission a close friend and professional associate of the people they were investigating?
No.

Quote:
Why are some of the hijackers still alive?
They aren't. This is based on a BBC news report very early on that claimed to have found some of the hijackers alive, but it was a case of mistaken identity. Many Arabs have identical names, just as many Americans do. The BBC corrected their error shortly afterwards and apologized to the innocent men whom they had incorrectly identified as the hijackers.

Quote:
Why was the bin laden family not investigated?
It was, and no significant links to the Bin Ladin family were found. The criminal investigation into these matters was orchestrated by the FBI and is not the same as the 9/11 Commission Report.

Quote:
Why would their be career IRS agents and Police officers who would resign after 20 years of service because they think something is very wrong... if nothing is wrong?
Whom in particular are you talking about, and what specific reasons did they give for resigning? Are you sure it had anything to do with them thinking it was an inside job?

Quote:
...snip...
The problem with that philosophy is that it relies on the fact that hundreds of thousands of people would be needed... this is not the case.. only a handful of people in key positions would be needed.
That's an astonishing claim, so I am not about to simply take your word for it. Can you name who these handful of people would be, and how they could have orchestrated an inside job by themselves without revealing the plot to those whom they would have had to use to facilitate it?
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Old 7th November 2007, 05:35 PM   #888
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Originally Posted by Depris View Post
I think to dismiss anything... even if there is some proof against it or for it .. doesn't matter.. to dismiss anything in totality from being possible is a gross misdirection in which to guide your mind.
I think I've gone into the biggest proof against Part 1 of the film, Depris. As soon as you or anyone else can tell me the exact ancient Egyptian text that names and describes Anup the Baptizer and can show where it depicts a baptism of Horus, then you and I can move forward as if the claim were valid and we can investigate the text.

However, no one has. No one. There is nothing to disprove but an imaginary claim. One cannot prove a negative (you claim you're intelligent several times, you should know this).

The entirety of Part 3 of the film is easily corrected with a more clear understanding of how the Federal Reserve system works, because the movie left a whole slew of things out in its attempt to give you a biased picture. I won't tell you that the film was outright lying, but you certainly have to recognize the faults of giving only partial information.

Now, as for Part 2: I honestly urge you to look around this forum a bit. There are so many aspects of the implications made in Part 2 that were obvious misdirections and/or just plain false that even the presumption of possibility quickly loses validity with regard to the movie's premise.
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Old 7th November 2007, 09:07 PM   #889
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I just finished watching the video, and first response to it is why do they take 5 minutes to show the title? And why within those 5 minutes do they show every canned footage of war they could get their hands on?

In all actuality I do understand why, but it doesn't become clear at first, it does as many have said before seam more like a music video, than a documentary (If it could aptly be called that, though in my opinion I would use a term such as rant, but I digress...).

They (the producers and directors) do create a fine emotional connection with their images, as many other documentaries I have seen on the subject do as well. The only reason I can surmise for this is to misdirect the observer from the facts that are prevalently missing.

I'm not going to touch the implications of part one, since I have only a working understanding of numerous religious beliefs, and am not an expert by any standard. As a contrast I do have understandings and expertise on some of the subject implied in part two.

I know the thermite and thermate theories have been thoroughly debunked, but I'm going to give my go at them anyways. First off, as we all should know, no organization, be it government, military, private, or public, considers either thermite or thermate an explosive.

Neither have a RE (Relative Effectiveness) factor, a number derived from TNT's effectiveness. All explosives are given a RE factor, in order to calculate the amount of explosives needed to demolish items. For example military grade M112, which is 1.25 lb block of composition 4 (C4) designated as a cutting and breaching explosive, has a RE of 1.34. Furthermore, neither has a DV (Detonation Velocity) in feet per second, again all explosives have this designator. M112, from above, has a DV of 26000 fps.

Why this and every other "documentary" on the subject list it as an explosive is, I guess, far beyond my understanding. As I stated before this theory has been thoroughly debunked, but I mainly bring it up because it irks me each and every time it is mentioned.

P=(3/8)A

P is TNT in Pounds
A is Cross section area of the steel member in inches squared

This is the formula used to calculate the amount of TNT needed to cut beams, columns, girders, steel plates, any structural steel sections, or bars that are 2 or more inches in thickness. To get from pounds of TNT to pounds of other explosives, you need to divide by the RE factor of the explosive you wish to use.

So here's the scenario (Abstract example):

1 steel plate measuring 4 inches deep, and 14 inches across. A would be 56, so P=21. 21 pounds of TNT to cut that plate. If you are using 1 pound sticks, a box comes with 48 sticks inside, 0.5 pound sticks 96 per box, 0.25 pound sticks 192 per box. But of course why would you use TNT when you can use something like C4? Ok so we use C$ to do the same thing, and as I stated before the RE factor of C$ is 1.34, so we need (Always round up when calculating to the nearest tenth, actual calculation is 15.671641791044776119402985074627) 15.7 pounds. M112 C4 comes in thirty count boxes, weighing 37.5 pounds.

Out of one box you could cut only two steel plates of the same size.

If someone were more studious they could calculate the needed pounds of explosives for just one floor and then multiply by amount of floors intended to demolish, but it would take some time, since most if not all load bearing supports would have to be demolished in order to obtain desired demolition...

Another thing that would be almost impossible to accomplish would be the amount of det-cord and shock tube needed to initiate the explosives, yes you could use electrical detonation, but the military has turned away from this because of possible electrical "contamination" from it's surroundings. Non electrical initiation is for the most part the preferred method of the military, since it has been proven safer.

The next thing that irks me is the mention of military drills. Now I can't get into specifics, because of national security, and such, but I can assure you drills are a regular occurrence in the military, both before and after 9-11. As such it doesn't in the least shock me NORAD was conducting one.

Other than these items I don't have the expertise to comment on the other things brought up, and as such will not. Just one note, if any one does calculate the pounds of explosives needed for one floor I would be happy to see the outcome.

Last edited by JMarshall; 7th November 2007 at 09:11 PM. Reason: Added brackets to calculation to diferentiate 3/8 times A.
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Old 8th November 2007, 06:03 AM   #890
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Calva Destama

If you cannot understand the concept of class... the concept that throughout history certain men have stood out as being particularly powerful during certain eras ... to the point where.. on the surface the population thought it was owned or controlled by someone else but in actuality was controlled by the same person.

Philip Morris for example owns or owned until the very recent past: Kraft, Oreo, Nabisco, Entemenns, Marlboro cigarettes, Parliament cigarettes, Basic cigarettes, over 20 brands of cigarettes, SABMiller... which owns all or part of Fosters, Miller, Molson, Coors, they are the largets bottler for the Coca Cola Bottling company, Goodyear Tires... many many many brands. A corporate group owns Philip Morris and a few other major corporate conglomerates... the ceo of philip morris also serves on the board of the new york stock exchange.

Now just about everything you see is basically owned by a handful of corporate groups. A lot of people think these are independent competing brands... they aren't ... the people at coors and the people at miller aren't competing for your business... they are working together (literally) to make a cheaper product (whether its bad for you or not.)

Pause it.

Assume for logic's sake... that this was true. Just pretend. I know it's an academic forum... but try to see it from another angle... just pretend it's a fact for a little bit ... that 9/11 may POSSIBLY have been known about at.

Lets also pretend that a small minority of the very wealthy elite who are at the top of control of every major institution or corporation you can name that do not answer to government... the government answers to them.

Even if everyone BELIEVED the government was beyond corrupt.. and wanted to stop it.. and everyone you know put money towards regaining control of politicians, the courts, and the destiny of this country ... IT WOULDN'T BE ANYWHERE NEAR the amount these corporate groups could come up with. Effectively that means even if you convinced thousands of people around you that its true and they all put money towards it it would be not even enough to warrant any attention... you're talking millions at best... corps can easily throw billions at anything they want.

Now guys... the whole point of everything I'm saying is that not everything can be proven... and their are past times throughout history.. numerous times when a SMALL MINORITY of people thought something that the MAJORITY (including most, if not all contemporary scientists) thought was "********". These people then went on to prove them wrong. Some of them didn't go on to prove them wrong but have since been proven correct.

Now these extremely wealthy people are so vain that they can spend obscene amounts of money on things that I... and most of the people I know.. would find ridiculous. They are most certainly used to always getting what they want... their parents often know their entire family history.. and were often connected with power or with a sense of nobility from birth.

These people are vain... they are depraved.. they are self consumed.. and they have no respect for the lives of anyone below them. They also have billions of dollars. If you don't see how having an unlimited amount of funds.. having close connections throughout various industries... throughout various organizations ... all important.. all key positions.. they know each other because they goto the same schools.. they lvie in teh same communities.. they belong to the same secret societies.

Niave people... which includes many here.. seem to think that Yale and Harvard secret societies are harmless... they are not .. another well known secret society:

The mafia....

What do yale secret societies and mafia secret societies have in common?

Both of them operate private meetings where important decisions affecting large groups of people are made. Both of them are not as immediately or easily affected by the laws of those in governemnt and in many cases both control or have controlled prominent figures in politics.

All of this is just so ridiculous. Russia's government is currently completely and utterly controlled by mafia ... the italian government is completely and utterly controlled by mafia .. in the 1930's you have adolf hitler replacing the german democracy with his distorted view of how reality should be .. and forcing everyone to share his view.

I think a wild and outrageous claim is to make a statement that this could not happen in the US. That this is not likely to happen.. and that it *hasn't happened* because you don't have some magical McGruffin (this a film reference originally coined by Alfred Hitchcock which refers to a single object which can prove or has some importance to some major event or incident... nothing like this actually exists...

Just put yourself in their shoes for godsakes man. Pretend you have billions of dollars and you have a lot of control over the world... pretend that you have no morals.. pretend that this philosophy is clearly encouraged in your upbringing by everyone around you and that you consider it right because... well having a lot of money is what most people think a successful life is all about... that and public recognition... neither of these things matter.

To think that our current system is good... that our country is good... that people are advanced and evolved.. and that everything isn't going terribly terribly wrong shows a serious lack of imagination and a clear lack of understanding.

Albert Einstein meant what he said ... again it's put very simply: "Imagination.. is more ... important.. than knowledge."

Understanding how our world and universe is not as important as understanding what life is really about.

We simply do not understand how the universe really works. We just think we do. We are very very primitive. Get it through your ignorant heads. You are not superior.

All those clips of wars is to show that we are primitive.

God gave us the ability to create. God is the ultimate creator. It makes logical sense that life is about utilizing your ability to create to ... well .. create good things.

War is an example of something that really unites people to a cause... but it's a lousy cause. Why is it happening? People site mundane issues... as if those things mattered...

It comes back too this:

Social politics... the ability to influence people and events... works exactly the same in the school yard as it does in international politics... nothign changes... their are various groups... their are people within these groups that are clearly dominate. Everyone knows this deep down... everyone wants this kind of life.. but often times peopel convince themselves that they can't do this.. they can't be that... and than base their philosphies on trying to make the world a place where they will be recognized as important.

If you do not have the genius required to make thousands if not millions of people listen to you ... to rise above any social obstacles.. than you have not even acknowledged the skills that matter the most in this life... let alone progressed towards improving them.

That is all...you people are rude and extremely arrogant... with very little to back it up. I hope I never have the displeasure of ever meeting with, or engaging in any conversations with you. A grave disappoint... this is no academic forum... this is a witch hunt reversed...

**** you.

Negativity is easy. It's very easy to be against things... sometimes you have to start being for things. Anyone can go around and **** on everything... but it takes courage and hope to take something bad and make it something good... thats what life is about... thats what God is all about.

People site suffering as proof that their isn't a God.

"God is subtle... but he isn't plain mean." - Albert Einstein

God allows you to suffer (however you have suffered... whatever your pain is.. most people have at least one.) in order to teach you. When you realize that you have a natural power to change it ... to change your reality .. to make it .. LITERALLY... whatever .. you ... want... it ... to .. .be .. then you will advance closer to god.

"None of this really matters... their is no god... all of this just happened by some freak occurence.. when you die your dead." ... everything about that is very negative.

"All of this DOES matter. Their IS a god. All of this didn't just happen by some freak occurence. When you die you move on to a new phase of existence and a new phase of learning."

"Am I crazy, or is everybody else?" - Albert Einstein ... key word their being "everybody"... he didn't say "I am crazy, or is everyone else except people that use the scientific method for every aspect of life."

"All a man really needs is a chair, a table, a violin, and a bowl of fruit to be happy."

Most good ideas start out as being supported by only a small minority of people. Sometimes they are proven false... I have no problem whatsoever admitting that a lot of 9/11 theories are ********. Whats not ******** is the idea of "very rich people" .. with "a lot of high level control" .. "that work together and spend time with each other in private country clubs, secret societies, etc."

These people would LOVE NOTHING MORE than a return to old fashioned ideas of fiefdoms, feudalism, full public control and power, a return to basically a clear concept of class... right now class is a little muffled... people that are in no way apart of the upper class are convinced they are with some relatively SLIGHT advances in technologies (mostly evolutions not revolutions)

They like the idea of being called "king" .. of sitting on thrones.. of having mass orgies.. of never having to worry about paying any kind of bill.. of directing events... and of controlling people. They always have controlled us and they always will... and you are the ******** spreading disinformation... by taking the COWARDS way out and saying "thats impossible... it's up to you to prove it..."

Sorry guys... I'm not currently capable of breaking into CIA headquarters and downloading every classified document and then bringing it to you for review.

I can point you to declassified CIA missions ... although only brief in what they actually tell you it can be confirmed through reliable sources that the CIA:

- Developed LSD/Acid and purposely started the counter culture.
- Has continually done massive experiments on propaghanda, mass control, brainwashing, and similiar techniques.
- Has on more than one known occasion and multiple assumed occasions orchestrated public elections a slew of other countries... both allied and enemy..
- That the wealthiest entities in the world often meet together privately and have a very developed system of identification... including family histories, titles, detailings of power, etc.
- Played a hand in the development of SCIENTOLOGY.
- ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC.

People still think it's impossible. I'm not saying it happened... I'm just saying it's possible. Even if 9/11 couldn't be stopped... and no one knew and no one in power in this country was behind it ... that doesn't erase the facts surrounding the wealthiest people.

All of you are quite simply... fools. You don't even know you are fools. Amazing.

"We know less than one thousandth of one percent of our universe." - Albert Einstein

"We are evolved, We are advanced, we live in a fair and open democracy. Everything is going very well except for all these charltans and loons that don't base their LIFE around a system designed for RESEARCH. Again... life is about more than 1+1=2.

I can live in a world without mathematics.. I would not want to live in a world without music. This is what Einstein meant.

Idiots.
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Old 8th November 2007, 07:10 AM   #891
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Originally Posted by Depris View Post
Now these extremely wealthy people are so vain that they can spend obscene amounts of money on things that I... and most of the people I know.. would find ridiculous. They are most certainly used to always getting what they want... their parents often know their entire family history.. and were often connected with power or with a sense of nobility from birth.

These people are vain... they are depraved.. they are self consumed.. and they have no respect for the lives of anyone below them. They also have billions of dollars. If you don't see how having an unlimited amount of funds.. having close connections throughout various industries... throughout various organizations ... all important.. all key positions.. they know each other because they goto the same schools.. they lvie in teh same communities.. they belong to the same secret societies.
And that's how you can believe this rot. "Rich people aren't human."

Grow up... or better yet, try to associate with a couple of successful people. Then maybe this irrational class envy/hatred will stop clouding your distorted view of reality.
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-lapman describing every twoofer on the internet

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Old 8th November 2007, 07:22 AM   #892
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Originally Posted by Depris View Post
Assume...Just pretend....just pretend...Lets also pretend... I think......Pretend...pretend...pretend...
No thanks, I will follow the facts. You can feed your ego and "pretend" you know what's going on, but if I'm going to start accusing people of murder, it will not be based on my assumptions and pretending.
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Old 8th November 2007, 08:32 AM   #893
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Originally Posted by Depris View Post
That is all...you people are rude and extremely arrogant... with very little to back it up. I hope I never have the displeasure of ever meeting with, or engaging in any conversations with you. A grave disappoint... this is no academic forum... this is a witch hunt reversed...

**** you.
Originally Posted by Depris View Post
Idiots.
I wonder if Depris realizes, in the midst of all his preaching about god this and god that, that Zeitgeist basically called his religious beliefs a lie.
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Old 8th November 2007, 11:44 AM   #894
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Originally Posted by GreNME View Post
I wonder if Depris realizes, in the midst of all his preaching about god this and god that, that Zeitgeist basically called his religious beliefs a lie.
I can't agree with that,Depris nowhere states he is a Christian,and Zeitgest primarily targets Christinaity. Depris comes off more like a deist. You can still buy that Christianity is a fraud but still beleive in God.
BUt...having said that......

I have seldom seen such a mass of misinformation,sheer nonsense,and total Woo as shown in Depris's two rants. It's pure Woo. I don't know where to begin. But his statment that the whole 60's counterculture was a CIA plot is drop dead funny.
He seems to buy into just about all the major Conspiracy theories.
THe 9/11 Truth movement is just the latest CT Woo that Depris buys into.
In the end ,his argument seems to be "I Believe it so it has to be true!". Please note his total contempt for logic in favor of blind faith.
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Old 8th November 2007, 12:14 PM   #895
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two posts of crap, this is number 2

Originally Posted by Depris View Post
CIA:

- Developed LSD/Acid and purposely started the counter culture.
- Played a hand in the development of SCIENTOLOGY.
- ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC.

"I can live in a world without ...
Idiots.
Who are you calling an idiot? When will you get something right?

You got every thing wrong; any idiot can find who invented LSD, you can't. What does that make you?

You did not even get your title correct! bone head spam - proof you can not believe what you read!

Last edited by beachnut; 8th November 2007 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 8th November 2007, 12:37 PM   #896
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Who are you calling an idiot? When will you get something right?

You got every thing wrong; any idiot can find who invented LSD, you can't. What does that make you?

You did not even get your title correct! bone head spam - proof you can not believe what you read!
And Even if the CIA was involved with early LSD research...which has never been proven..to say they started the 60's counterculture is just plain wacko.
Truth is, the CIA has Never been nearly as competent as all these massive conspiracy theories would require.
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Old 8th November 2007, 12:39 PM   #897
dudalb
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Who are you calling an idiot? When will you get something right?

!
Answer 1. Anybody who disagrees with him.
Answer 2. When Hell Freezes Over.
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Old 8th November 2007, 02:28 PM   #898
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Originally Posted by Depris View Post
Sorry guys... I'm not currently capable of breaking into CIA headquarters and downloading every classified document and then bringing it to you for review.

I can point you to declassified CIA missions ... although only brief in what they actually tell you it can be confirmed through reliable sources that the CIA:

- Developed LSD/Acid and purposely started the counter culture.
See, this is the kind of (il)logic that really gets my goat. I find a lot of CT'ers end up - I think as a result of their obsession with the "top tier" running everything - relying on very simplistic causal explanations for very complex social phenomenae (sp?).

As another example, on a facebook group I participate in someone mentioned how the "Rockefellers funded the feminist movement" as part of an overall plan to weaken "the family" and render the public more malleable to their evil designs. When pressed for a source (like Depris he merely stated this as fact, with no support - as if this was common knowledge like "the sky is blue") he gave me the name Aaron Russo and a link to a youtube video of him discussing the Rockefeller's involvement with the feminist movement. Unfortunately, several google attempts to look deeper into this guy's theories on feminism were a failure. If anyone has any links to a good debunking of Russo's thoughts here I would appreciate the help!

The essential implication of this gentleman and his statement on the other board was that the feminist movement of the modern era was essentially a malicious design of a shadowy elite. Similarly, we have Depris saying that the counterculture was "purposely started" by the CIA.

In both cases (feminism and the counterculture) we have very complex social phenomenae that are really reduced to a level so simplistic that these explanations cannot be considered anything other than absurd. In the case of feminism, we have a movement with roots that went back over a century prior to the 60s (linked as it was to the abolitionist movement of the 19th century), with many millions of individuals who worked hard to fight for women's equality. The idea that the women's lib has "destroyed the family" is a right-wing canard that's been out there for a while, but its the first time I heard it being linked to the Rockefellers. Women's lib wasn't just an American phenomenon either - it occurred in Europe and many other places as well. Was Rockefeller money involved in the British feminist movement too?

In the case of the counterculture - there were so many millions of people touched by it, all across the world (from America, to Europe, to Canada) I fail to see how the CIA could have had a hand in "starting" ALL OF IT. Now were they concerned by the counterculture? Certainly - I've read the CIA documents too in a fascinating book called "Acid Dreams - The Social History of the CIA, the Sixties..." (I forget the rest of the title) - and what I took from them was that the CIA was often involved in infiltration of radical groups, spying and research into drugs. But to claim that they "started" the movement they were monitoring is clearly ridiculous. It was way too big to be the product of any one government agency. There were too many social pressures at work: disillusionment with a failed war, rigid social rules, growing affluence, accelerating social changes in everything from music to fashion to advertising to film.

The only way to see the feminist movement and the counterculture is to see them as organic, complex social phenomenon that arose out of clearly defineable social and historical pressures.

That "elites" were involved with both movements is clearly true - but what annoys me is that the CT'ers will focus on those particular elements to the exclusion of the all other drivers that created these movements. Further, to the extent that both feminism and the counterculture have resulted in clear social benefits from REAL risk and hard work - I believe that these theories are insulting to the memory of that work by many individuals that truly believed in what they were doing.

EDIT: And LSD was not "developed" by the CIA - I forget the dude's name but it was developed by accident in Austria. The CIA took a pre-existing chemical and experimented with it - they developed OTHER drugs from their research, but the development of LSD was through the research of one man in Europe (Austria or Germany if I remember correctly - wiki it if you want to

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Old 9th November 2007, 02:21 PM   #899
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Napoleon Bonaparte

I am not a Christian. I do not adhere to any religious beliefs outside of the agnostic belief that there is a god. I follow that belief system because:

1.)The idea that everything on our planet and in our universe just happened ... for no reason no less... is completely and utterly ridiculous.
2.)I believe there are many ways to solve a problem and many ways to look at something without having a single “right” answer. Many problems have far more than one solution.
3.)That there are people who adhere to negative ways of thinking and also positive lines of thinking. Simply put, it means one person might go around and crap on everything while another person can find something good in even the most awful of circumstances. Furthermore, the positive mentality is able to take something bad and make it something good. The negative person rarely does this.

As far as 9/11... what I see is mostly
a.) an automatic leaning towards the government. I do not mean that people are leaning towards the government's explanation automatically... I mean there is an immediate emotional connection towards siding with the government right from the get go. In other words, many people here believe the government is good.

Your government is not your own. How you can say it is... and keep a straight face is beyond me. Sure you'll demand proof ... obscure mundane evidence or some magical McGruffin that will “prove” it to you. I shouldn't haveto prove it to you ... it's obvious.. it's right in front of you. I should not have to prove to you that:
1.)there is less and less each year
2.)cities, education, transportation, etc. is not only far behind other countries but is getting worse every year.
3.)That its impossible to know what the CIA has and hasn't done ... there is no way to prove it because almost all of its activities are classified. That in itself should help you lean “away” from it. Furthermore, countless former agents (some of whom are clearly respectable people... people who have no history of dissent .. whom towards the end of their career came out with shocking information in books... that most haven't read.. why? Because it's not on TV. Where is the mystery here people? Cable, Radio, Magazines, Newspapers... most of these are owned by the same companies. If this government was fascist... if the Gestapo really existed they wouldn't really need to keep troops all over the street. Not if they controlled all information and a brainwashed population. They'd just need to control people in certain areas... ie: director of operations... and/or managers. It's also not like those people would necessarily with the government per se... but hypothetically if someone came to a director and said “we don't want this to happen... if you don't want to end up dead... we suggest you don't let it happen again.” Thats enough to scare the **** out of a most people in a population thats so afraid of conflict... even NATURAL CONFLICT...thats been going on since the beginning of time...

As far as that guy that doesn't like to pretend... well... imagination is pretending... it IS fantasy... I'm not trying to say Einstein said imagination is more important than knowledge to defend 9/11. I don't care about the details of 9/11. Some are true, most aren't, none of it matters because 9/11 has already clearly been used to put through so many laws and agendas that I find the idea of that the government didn't want it to happen ridiculous. It's just ridiculous. There are people at the top and they don't care about 3,000 people dying... common people.. they don't... they don't consider you a real person. There is going to be a revolution and most of you are on the wrong side.

The answer is not to make a society where nobody fights... where the threat of violence becomes non-existent. The answer is to make sure everyone understands that they have the ability to defend themselves. That the universe requires the skill we call “survival” and that it's needed off of the planet just as much as on it.

No one in the eighteenth century wanted to believe that the wealthy upper class were purposely directing them to unnecessary wars consistently and purposely not feeding them. One day enough was enough and they found out later.. YES .. they did have the ability to feed you but were purposely starving you ... YES... they really were starting those wars for no reason... YES they really did have great control over most if not all newspapers...

Same goes with Hitler and his government... YES it was facist... YES they were doing all these terrible things to people... .. most people living under hitler's government weren't aware that anything had gone “wrong”... and the ones that had concerns felt it was just corruption and bad decisions.. that things could be changed with better voting.... it's a joke.

The United States government is not under your control. If you believe it is, try to change something.
Try to change anything.. and I don't mean something mundane and meaningless .. I mean something big.

Marijuana is the single best example I can think of. There are on hundred million religious zealots in middle america who are completely brainwashed into keeping marijuana illegal. None of the ancestors of these people ever heard of marijuana... but TV and radio brainwashes them and keeps them under control. Thats why they are the governemnts current “base”... they are very very easily controlled... it doesn't even cost much money to control them ... “the government is backed by jesus christ. We are trying to purify everyone and make sure evil doesn't happen.”

At the same time everyone that lives on the coasts is clearly smoking massive amounts of marijuana. Everyone does. I don't know of one neighbor who doesn't smoke pot at dinner with their families... I'm talking at family dinner.. .this is something you do not see on TV. I've never seen a father and mother and kids and a grandmother all passing a joint around before eating thanksgiving turkey. Yet in my actual real life I've seen this dozens if not hundreds of times.

Things like that are what lead to me personally believing the country is completely and utterly in the control of a few people. You have the television “teaching” you one thing about a group of people or a place, and often times you find out it's completely wrong. Additionally, when you look at the structure of television... the structure of it is very propaghanda oriented. You are played commercials, you are shown things that even if verbally you don't take it as fact... plays an emotional chord on you... or resonates somewhere in your to the point where whether you like it or not it's had an affect on your opinion or viewpoint. This is especially true of things that are repeated over and over again. It doesn't matter if you are a scientist, a lawyer, a homeless man, a baker, a cop, a drug dealer, whatever.. if someone has access to your mind ... and you don't set up proper mental defenses... you don't go into it knowing someone might be trying to control you... then you allow these things to be repeated and repeated and sink in ... from childhood to adulthood and pretty soon you don't question anything.

The bottom line is I'm an ordinary guy, I've gone to college... I'm from the city... and I'm scared to death. I feel without a doubt like I'm living in a government very close to that of Adolf Hitler... we've got *********** nazi's in the governemnt for godsakes. (Arnold Swartzeneggar.) The countless former nazis at NASA and in the military that were brought over. Prescott Bush a known nazi collaborator.
Seems to me when Germany lost most of those guys got rid of the gold and figured they could just try again somewhere else.

The most important things to come out of nazi germany were experiments pertaining to how to brainwash people, how to control people, the development of propaghanda, etc. These tests provided many good results... and were basically continued in both the US and soviet union.

There is no doubt in my mind that the wealthiest people... and ergo the government are definitely afraid of its own citizens more than anything else. No doubt about this.

“Fascism is the merger of state power with corporate interests.”
Benito Mussolini (inventor of fascism, concepts used as a foundation for Hitlers regime as well.)

Proof is good... but it should not come in the form of mundane numbers.... that go on and on and on... there is no need to make things that complex ... you need only look to simple points to find an answer.

For example... should their be “secret” organizations ... with no oversight... that have access to technology more advanced than the public has access too... that can do pretty much... whatever they want..? The CIA is an example of this. As is the NSA. You assume these agents question things but they are generally taken from middle america... from the same religious communities that are easily controlled. It's very easy to ******** these people on every level.

Should torture be legal? WHAT?

I mean ... whats going on people...you have scientists defending a government thats torturing people .. .I don't understand this. It's amazing.

Thats all I have to say... I'm not asking you to take it as fact... just admit it's possible... and stop attacking people who believe it's true. You have no right to do this... you don't attack other people for believing in things that you don't agree with. It's not different than a jesus lover attacking you for not believing in jesus. It's the exact same mindset ... it's just reversed...
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Old 9th November 2007, 02:41 PM   #900
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Quote:
The bottom line is I'm an ordinary guy, I've gone to college... I'm from the city... and I'm scared to death. I feel without a doubt like I'm living in a government very close to that of Adolf Hitler... we've got *********** nazi's in the governemnt for godsakes. (Arnold Swartzeneggar.) The countless former nazis at NASA and in the military that were brought over.
Well, Arnie is from Austria and has a accent so he has got to be a Nazi,right?

That whole rant is some of the best Woo I have seen on this site in a while.

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Old 9th November 2007, 03:07 PM   #901
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Give me liberty or give me death.

No but arnold's dad was a high ranking nazi... and thats information that has been made public. Prescott Bush is also a known nazi collaborator. Their were also many nazis brought over that found work in NASA and the US military.

The most important thing discovered in the nazi government were all the classified experiments regarding brainwashing people, how to control people, and how to make effective propaghanda.

Those principles and experiments were continued in the US and soviet union...to the point where now and days almost everyone gets their information from TV or an extension of TV.

Newspapers ... magazines.. they rely the same information... all of it is being controlled...

Yeah I'm woo... (sarcasm)

You're the one whose woo.
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Old 9th November 2007, 03:07 PM   #902
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Depris, it seems obvious that you came here solely to preach and not for any sort of interaction with the other members here. This sub-forum, on a skeptics board, is about the critical examination of conspiracy theories. It is not about relating your personal philosophical insights and justifications of unfalsifiable beliefs. Since your thoughts concerning conspiracy theories are neither original nor particularly insightful, why do you expect us to take the time to respond to them when you refuse to even examine them critically?

Also, I must say that your preoccupation with quotations from famous men is a bit silly. Quotes, no matter how brilliant the person they originate from, are no substitute for evidence, especially when they're completely denuded of context.
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Old 9th November 2007, 03:24 PM   #903
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No but arnold's dad was a high ranking nazi... and thats information that has been made public
So that makes Arnold a Nazi??????
That is a really,really,lame argument.
And Arnie's father was a Nazi Party Member,yes,but hardly high ranking.

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Old 9th November 2007, 03:26 PM   #904
Slayhamlet
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Originally Posted by Depris View Post
No but arnold's dad was a high ranking nazi... and thats information that has been made public. Prescott Bush is also a known nazi collaborator. Their were also many nazis brought over that found work in NASA and the US military.

The most important thing discovered in the nazi government were all the classified experiments regarding brainwashing people, how to control people, and how to make effective propaghanda.

Those principles and experiments were continued in the US and soviet union...to the point where now and days almost everyone gets their information from TV or an extension of TV.

Newspapers ... magazines.. they rely the same information... all of it is being controlled...

Yeah I'm woo... (sarcasm)

You're the one whose woo.
As opposed to you who get all your news from completely unbiased CT websites, right?.

ETA: Man, Zeitgeist really is like fly paper to nutjobs, isn't it?

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Old 9th November 2007, 04:09 PM   #905
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ETA: Man, Zeitgeist really is like fly paper to nutjobs, isn't it?
Absolutely.
It has something to appeal to every nutjob from the Truthers to the Da Vinci Code HIdden Symbols In Everything freaks.
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Old 9th November 2007, 04:14 PM   #906
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not really

Arnold's dad was high ranking enough... he volunteered for the SA.... its not like he was just a member of the nazi party and thats it. He was a member of a special branch of police forces designed to keep soldiers and civilians in war torn areas in check.

You made the statement "so if arnold's dad was a nazi he must be one too right!?!?" ... no I didn't say that... YOU did. To answer it though: yes a son does learn a lot from his dad and his dads philosphies have an affect on the childs morality.

You think you know these people? You talk about them like you know them. You do not know them. You see brief second or minute clips where they say something someone else wrote and look geniune when they say it.

You have no idea how moral arnold may or may not be. Thats my point. ALL INFORMATION is being controlled by someone... why are you taking information from one source over the other? You seem to point towards respectability or some other moot philosphy.

Overall, I agree with the one guy saying I refuse to have an interaction. I think its pointless for me to stay here because you already are set in your beliefs. You don't want to look at things from another angle... you think what you think and thats it.

Good luck. You'll need it.
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Old 9th November 2007, 04:15 PM   #907
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Originally Posted by Depris View Post
No but arnold's dad was a high ranking nazi... and thats information that has been made public. Prescott Bush is also a known nazi collaborator.
So has your father ever done anything wrong in his life, and should we therefore blame you for it?

Dave
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Old 9th November 2007, 04:17 PM   #908
Praktik
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So that makes Arnold a Nazi??????
That is a really,really,lame argument.
And Arnie's father was a Nazi Party Member,yes,but hardly high ranking.
And I wonder how many of the leaders of Germany, Austria, France and Italy have fascist parents?

How were these guys involved with 9/11? What cog of the machine bringing us the NWO do they represent?

How many times have the Bildebergers met in Strasbourg??

The whole nazi thing is always a sore spot. I have a real distaste for the term "Islamo Fascist", the ubiquitous comparisons of Hussein and Ahmadinejad to Hitler and the references to Churchill and Chamberlain among the war cheerleaders. It really gets under my skin and I think the comparisons are both invalid and cheap tools of manipulation. In an argument, it's the "heavy artillery" - arguing against this position unfairly places one in the unenviable position of either being a lily-livered Chamberlain - or an active supporter of Nazis.

So - to be fair - how can I not also be annoyed when such comparisons are made to countries like America from the other side of the spectrum? Really, the Nazis were a unique product of their time - and while it is possible to make narrower linkages in a fair manner, perhaps the style of a recruitment poster, or the Nazis "Verschärfte Vernehmung" approach to torture and the similarity it has to America's "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques", the fact is that most times it is used as a pejorative slur. Rarely do the comparisons have much historical or factual merit - and if they do - they're cloaked in the language of hysteria.

Further, I think it distorts history - and as much as we should be decrying some of the horrors of superpower politics, life in America is very different than it was in Nazi Germany. As a Canadian, I can tell you that its easy for a lot of people to resort to caricature regarding life in America. I hear often the phrase "America is f*cked" - which, while partly true, glosses over the real depth of experience and complexity of the nation. The ignorance here makes it easier for people who are emotionally opposed to US policy to really think things in America are fairly comparable to the Third Reich. So its a bit of an eye-opener to see an American claiming that he's living under a Nazi Police State.

There's a whole lot of crazy bad stuff that went down and goes down in America - but there's really no comparison to life under the brutal thumb of a madman. I bet people who really had to live through the deprivation of the first half of the twentieth century would be livid to hear that life in America is "just as bad". The flipside of this problem is that it cheapens the depth of suffering experienced in Europe in the 30's and 40s - if America is "just as bad" then heck, I could have done WWII no problem!

I could also articulate the nature of fascism, and how its an inaccurate label when applied to the US, but this post is long enough. I'll just slip in one factoid on that score, and Depris can google some textbook definitions of fascism to find the rest:

Fascism is predicated on the total control of the state. This means that even corporations were to be controlled by the state apparatus. They were to be subsumed completely to state authority. In America - if anything - we have a situation where government is often doing the bidding of corporations: letting them write actual pieces of legislation etc etc etc. The philosophy of liberalism is too deeply ingrained. America could perhaps be fairly termed a "Corporate Oligarchy", but you'd need to draw that comparison out and make some caveats.

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Old 9th November 2007, 04:24 PM   #909
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"Further, I think it distorts history"

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"Four hostile newspapers are worth more than 10,000 bayonets." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"In the end, the sword will always be conquered by the spirit." - Napoleon Bonaparte

"Imagination rules the world." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
"Creation [imagination] is more important than knowledge." - Julius Ceasar
"I would rather excel men in the knowledge of what is excellent then in my own power and dominion." - Alexander the Great

"Any man fluent in Esperanto (a man made universal language) is part of a jewish conspiracy to take over the world." - Adolf Hitler

I believe quotes taken from great men should be held in much higher regard then history books. Most of these men condemned the idea of "the past". (the adolf quote was meant to illustrate something... I do not consider him a great man... the opposite actually.)

Everything is about information and who controls it.

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Old 9th November 2007, 04:31 PM   #910
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double post - sh*t was weird

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Old 9th November 2007, 04:32 PM   #911
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Originally Posted by Depris View Post
I believe quotes taken from great men should be held in much higher regard then history books. Most of these men condemned the idea of "the past". (the adolf quote was meant to illustrate something... I do not consider him a great man... the opposite actually.)

Everything is about information and who controls it.
This was a genuinely funny response. I lay out a careful case as to how I think Nazi and Fascist comparisons to America are flawed (just as I think for similar slurs against America's "enemy of the moment") - and your response to my claim that those comparisons "distort history"?

Depris: "THERE IS NO HISTORY"

Woah man. I think you just blew my mind! That's some far out sh*t right there.
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Old 9th November 2007, 04:42 PM   #912
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"Any fool can make things bigger and more complex. It takes a stroke of genius to move in the opposite direction." - Einstein

I suppose I didn't read your entire post regarding comparisons because it's a complex explanation used to justify something simple:

- More than one of the people in high levels of state government have nazi connections. (arnold by himself.. okay maybe it's a stretch... arnold.. bush... nasa.. military.. to ignore all of the nazi connections is a stretch for you not for me.)
- "Fascism is a merger of state power and corporate interests." - Benito Mussolini (the inventor of fascism)

I think the inventor of fascism... which other government leaders copied... has a better understanding of what fascism is than you do. Further I think his simple definition is a much better reference than your long drawn out post showing some kind of complex comparisons that may or may not exist.
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Old 9th November 2007, 05:32 PM   #913
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Another thing I find funny about Penn's show is that:

They spend their time consistently showing how government programs and laws are "************" ... but when someone puts together something showing how the governments been usurped they show a fireman quoting "I find it incorrigble that our government could possibly be so hienous as to kill 3000 of it's own citizens" ... when governments throughout history... ESPECIALLY after Napoleon Bonaparte and the French/American revolutions have been shown to do so.

My question to those guys... "why do these laws keep getting passed when seemingly no one I know supports them ... and if they do support them it's because they don't care and think everyone wants it .. or they repeat a phrase from television/magazines/newspapers." The answer is because the laws getitng passed have NOTHING TO DO with your vote.. with anyones vote.. most people don't even vote... they have to do with your political power.

The ones at the head of political power are the ones with obscene amounts of money and belong to the right secret societies. Plain and simple. This is something I know to be true, although I cannot prove it.
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Old 9th November 2007, 05:38 PM   #914
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Originally Posted by Depris View Post
"Any fool can make things bigger and more complex. It takes a stroke of genius to move in the opposite direction." - Einstein

I suppose I didn't read your entire post regarding comparisons because it's a complex explanation used to justify something simple:

- More than one of the people in high levels of state government have nazi connections. (arnold by himself.. okay maybe it's a stretch... arnold.. bush... nasa.. military.. to ignore all of the nazi connections is a stretch for you not for me.)
- "Fascism is a merger of state power and corporate interests." - Benito Mussolini (the inventor of fascism)

I think the inventor of fascism... which other government leaders copied... has a better understanding of what fascism is than you do. Further I think his simple definition is a much better reference than your long drawn out post showing some kind of complex comparisons that may or may not exist.
Since Mussolini never said such a thing that definition is obviously meaningless, now isn't it?

Seriously, have you ever once looked into an actual source for any of the quotations you parrot? Could you even name a single source for any of them? And just to forestall any stupidity that may follow: no, a name next to the quote is not a source, nor is a website catalogue of quotes.

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Old 9th November 2007, 05:41 PM   #915
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Originally Posted by Depris View Post
"Further, I think it distorts history"

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"Four hostile newspapers are worth more than 10,000 bayonets." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"In the end, the sword will always be conquered by the spirit." - Napoleon Bonaparte

"Imagination rules the world." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
"Creation [imagination] is more important than knowledge." - Julius Ceasar
"I would rather excel men in the knowledge of what is excellent then in my own power and dominion." - Alexander the Great

"Any man fluent in Esperanto (a man made universal language) is part of a jewish conspiracy to take over the world." - Adolf Hitler

I believe quotes taken from great men should be held in much higher regard then history books. Most of these men condemned the idea of "the past". (the adolf quote was meant to illustrate something... I do not consider him a great man... the opposite actually.)

Everything is about information and who controls it.
Well,we can add history to the long list of things you know nothing about.
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Old 9th November 2007, 05:43 PM   #916
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Quote:
This is something I know to be true, although I cannot prove it.
I think this is Stundie Material,folks.
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Old 9th November 2007, 05:44 PM   #917
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Slayhamlet View Post
Since Mussolini never said such a thing that definition is obviously meaningless, now isn't it?

Seriously, have you ever once looked into an actual source for any of the quotations you parrot? Could you even name a single source for any of them? And just to forestall any stupidity that may follow: no, a name next to the quote is not a source, nor is a website catalogue of quotes.

I am betting he has never read a book on any of the stuff he blathers on about. He gets all his info from You Tube and Kook Websites...or so it seems from what he has brought to the table so far.
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Old 9th November 2007, 05:46 PM   #918
Slayhamlet
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think this is Stundie Material,folks.
Meh. Religious people say things like that all the time. Though I guess it does illustrate quite well that 9/11 Twoof is very much like a religion to many (most?) of its members.
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Old 9th November 2007, 10:20 PM   #919
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Quote:
Anup the Baptizer and can show where it depicts a baptism of Horus, then you and I can move forward as if the claim were valid and we can investigate the text.
What if they called him "Anubis the Enbalmer" which does involve annointing in preparation for the afterlife....just like a catholic must reach heaven in the afterlife by being baptized during life. I am curious to know what translation errors there were between massey and the present and how those clearly demarcate the two concepts from each other, and why specifically it's inconceivable that they idea couldn't have been borrowed into what became christianity....
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Old 9th November 2007, 10:55 PM   #920
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Anubis wasn't an embalmer, he was a guide. His closest approximation would be Charon of Greek myth, but even that is not accurate. Close, though. The texts in question do describe the embalming process and Anubis is mentioned. No cigar, though. It would take a bit more than creative interpretation to go from the god of the underworld to the herald of the supposed son of the Hebrew god.

In case you're not getting it, the point is that these conspiracy theory religious "studies" are BS in that they take completely different mythos and try to jam them together over some alleged similarity that usually winds up being something as simple as "sun worship" (vague much?) or as asinine as attempting to claim similar first letters to the names (Mary, Maya, Myrra). Hardly reliable evidence. Other attempts have been in trying to claim that similar sounding words have common ancestry, and as I've pointed out already there have been linguistic studies that have shown the error in using such a phenomenon as evidence. In each and every case, without fail, these religious conspiracy theories require the person subscribing to the theory to be mostly ignorant of any and all cultural and historical context in order to make the connection. If anything, this sort of fallacious and wild imaginitive speculation is precisely why the last half century of archaeology has been so controversial-- we are finding out just how much many of the earlier studies of ancient civilizations have had a lot of cultural projection placed on them, poisoning the well of scholarly study.

This is just a new dose of poison.
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