Ayn Rand speaks to Mike Wallace, 1959

EGarrett

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-pHxlwFgOc

Ayn talks about her philosophy of Objectivism, and her ideas that altruism is immoral (strongly disagree there). Mike Wallace is a nice guy, and you may not agree with everything Rand says...but you must admit that watch him try to ask her questions is like watching a kitten nip the tail of a tiger.

(oh, and I haven't watched all of the videos yet, but my issue with her claim about altruism is that, in order for man to achieve his greatest happiness, he needs other men's knowledge and cooperation in building an efficient society with efficient technology)
 
(oh, and I haven't watched all of the videos yet, but my issue with her claim about altruism is that, in order for man to achieve his greatest happiness, he needs other men's knowledge and cooperation in building an efficient society with efficient technology)

I think Rand would say other men's knowledge and cooperation should be obtained by appealing to their self-interest. If instead you appeal to an abstract sense of altruism then you create a parasitic relationship, and that's what's immoral.
 
I think Rand would say other men's knowledge and cooperation should be obtained by appealing to their self-interest. If instead you appeal to an abstract sense of altruism then you create a parasitic relationship, and that's what's immoral.

Altruism: unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others


Yeah, real immoral there, altruism is almost worse than torturing small children.
 
While I appreciate your sentiment, Tony...I think you're missing the point.

I myself run a non-profit organization, and have to make appeals for financial support. When I first targeted multinational companies, I gave presentations which appealed to their altruistic sensibilities...and got almost nowhere. But when I changed my presentation to appeal to more selfish motivations (better public image, good PR, advertising/marketing opportunities, etc.), I was far more successful.

And quite frankly, I like this way better. I tend to feel more guilty -- as was stated earlier, somewhat "parasitic" -- requesting people to give me money when there's no quantifiable benefit for them. I'm basically coming, hat in hand, and begging. On the other hand, when I present it to them as a win-win situation, where both sides derive quantifiable benefits, not only are they happier about giving, but I feel more confident about getting up in front of them and asking for money.

Think about it this way -- altruistic appeals mostly rely on instilling a sense of guilt in the other party. "Oh, look at these poor people, you have so much more than them, it would be selfish for you not to help, you should give us money." And, quite frankly, I do consider such an approach to be arguably immoral. A more extreme example would be those Sally Struthers commercials where they show kids starving to death, and Sally doing her best to lay a huge guilt trip on you in order for you to give money to them.

Whereas I see nothing inherently immoral in saying, "You help us, we help you; both sides benefit and come out ahead."
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-pHxlwFgOc

Ayn talks about her philosophy of Objectivism, and her ideas that altruism is immoral (strongly disagree there). Mike Wallace is a nice guy, and you may not agree with everything Rand says...but you must admit that watch him try to ask her questions is like watching a kitten nip the tail of a tiger.

(oh, and I haven't watched all of the videos yet, but my issue with her claim about altruism is that, in order for man to achieve his greatest happiness, he needs other men's knowledge and cooperation in building an efficient society with efficient technology)

Thanks for the video, EGarrett.

I happen to be finishing up Atlas Shrugged right now, so while I wouldn't call myself an Objectivist, I'd like to respond to your issue about altruism.

You said yourself that man needs other men's knowledge and cooperation- COOPERATION, not altruism. People work together to serve each other's interests- that's what business is. It's based on voluntary consent.

However, when you start insisting that men should be allowed to force others to give him knowledge and cooperation in order to achieve happiness, THAT'S when Rand would get furious at you. She'd compare it to slavery- what right does someone have to take someone else's ideas and products (in effect, their minds) in order to achieve happiness?

In Atlas Shrugged, Rand describes a society whose justification is generally similar to what you said about building an efficient society with efficient technology. In practice, though, this means that when someone is successful, when they develop a new metal or a new technology, the government seizes it and uses it "for the benefit of society," meaning that people are punished for spurring technological progress. How is this system one that will help men achieve happiness? Even if it somehow suceeded, it would be a society in which the only kind of happiness one would be allowed to achieve would be unearned- if anyone does work to earn wealth, it would be taken away from them.

Maybe I'm missing your point, though- if I am, please be more specific.
 
Altruism: unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others

Yeah, real immoral there, altruism is almost worse than torturing small children.
Without speaking to any moral judgments, there is a valid point here regarding human behavior and psychology. The moral ideal, according to Rand, is selfishness. Not selfishness to the exclusion of others but selfishness that elevates the individual thereby elevating society. The moral is one of pragmatism and a realistic view of human psychology and behavior.

The 60's brought change but those hylcon times did not bring about the degree of change that the counter culture had hopped. John and Yoko spending a weel on Mike Douglas, the Bed-in, flying kites for peace, Summer of Love, etc., etc. did little to bring about any significant and permanent social changes that would cause a lot of people to sacrifice for the good of others. On the contrary, the hippies left the communes, got jobs, purchased homes and worked to secure their own and their families future.

They became, to a point, selfish. This isn't to say that they abandoned all of their ideals and became cold uncaring back stabbers. No, they followed Rand's philosophy, to a point, and cared about themselves thereby contributing to society, providing goods and services even if they did so inadvertently. This was, IMO, was far more valuable to society than a love-in ever could be or for that matter a large segment of society living altruistically could be.

I'm not an objectivist and I do not believe that Rand's philosophy is an end all be all treatise on human behavior however I believe strongly that Rand adds a very important piece of the puzzle that we should not ignore. The desire to have material things is a very good thing.

I'm not against altruism and Rand wasn't either. Yes you can find a number of quotes to suggest otherwise but then I can find quotes that would make Einstein look like a theist.
 
However, when you start insisting that men should be allowed to force others to give him knowledge and cooperation in order to achieve happiness, THAT'S when Rand would get furious at you.

Who said anything about forcing others to do anything--did I miss something?
 
Who said anything about forcing others to do anything--did I miss something?

I'm talking about taxes and regulations, jimtron, and when they are justified through arguments of social responsibility.
 
I think I watched some of those videos awhile ago. My formative years on the Net were spent arguing with wacky "Objectivists" and their hideous "moral" philosophy. They were even worse than the hardcore Libertarian Party activists (people on USENET like Shanek).

Rand's moral philosophy is, in a word, confused. Her distinction between "altruism" -- which she believed to be evil -- and "benevolence" -- which she believed to be good/OK -- is arbitrary at best, and what one would expect from a fourth-rate mind.

Now of course one could argue that appeals to self-interest empirically generates the best economic outcomes -- and that's exactly what Adam Smith claimed 150 years before Ayn Rand. The most quoted passage from _Wealth of Nations_: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages."

Randfan:
I'm not an objectivist and I do not believe that Rand's philosophy is an end all be all treatise on human behavior however I believe strongly that Rand adds a very important piece of the puzzle that we should not ignore. The desire to have material things is a very good thing.

Wait a minute. I'm pretty sure I remember reading some of Rand's emotionally-laden rhetoric where she went on and on about how a monk is actually selfish because he has this certain uncompromisable belief system. I remember it precisely because it struck me as odd in the context of her militant atheism. Maybe it can be found in _The Fountainhead_, the only Rand novel I actually read. What fries my mind is how she can even pretend to claim a monopoly on words like "rationality" and "reason." Such words always looked like a poor fit -- too costume-y -- much like the capes she would wear on TV. Rand's main rhetorical hook wasn't about materialism, although that's certainly one of the appeals to her followers (notice all the absurd dollar signs). No, she mainly appeal to money and materialism as an expression of authenticity and, most importantly, integrity. Especially to beastly, socially maladjusted male adolescents this supremely self-confident crap -- that is rationalization for greed, self-interest, up-yours mentality, has deep appeal.

Wolfman writes:
Whereas I see nothing inherently immoral in saying, "You help us, we help you; both sides benefit and come out ahead."

Sure, that's superficially amoral. It's almost like a market exchange. Of course, the firm profits, so to speak, because you're enabling a false image, one of social conscience and concern.

There is another approach, the one taken by Kant (Rand's arch-rival). Kant's arguments are rational rather than emotional: we have a duty to others.
 
Sure, that's superficially amoral. It's almost like a market exchange. Of course, the firm profits, so to speak, because you're enabling a false image, one of social conscience and concern.
Hmmmm...while I'd agree with most of your comments above, I'd consider this one to be far too sweeping a generalization.

First, it is not only the firm that profits...the people to whom money is being given also profit (in the case of my organization, for example, we were able to use such money to set up a training center that gave young women viable business options besides becoming prostitutes).

Second, it isn't exactly a "false image" when real benefit does derive from their donations. It may be an exaggerated image...but not necessarily false.

Third, there is the implicit assumption that all such companies are motivated only by self-interest. In my experience, I'd say that self-interest is part of it, but there is also a genuine desire to do something good, to make a positive contribution. When there is no quantifiable benefit to the company, it is more difficult for them to justify it; but when they can do something to help others, and derive a quantifiable benefit for themselves, it becomes eminently justifiable...and everyone benefits.

In a number of cases where companies have contributed to our organization, members of that company have subsequently come to visit our projects, and meet the people involved. Almost every time, they demonstrated great personal interest in the work we were doing, and even made additional personal contributions (with no expectation of reciprocal gestures from us) above what the company had given.

Besides running an NGO, I also happen to be a fairly successful businessman (having started two successful businesses, and in the process of setting up my third). I have used my various companies' profits to help support some of my NGO's work (both corporate donations, and my own private donations). To have this cynically referred to as "enabling a false image" rather offends me; certainly, when I make such contributions, I want my company's image to benefit, and if I can derive a financial advantage for my company by doing so, that's great. But equal with my desire for fiscal success, is my desire to use such success to help others.

Let's put it this way -- a businessman has money, and has a choice of two NGOs to which he can give that money. He personally wants to do something to help. In the first case, his donation will derive no personal benefit for himself or his company...once the money is gone, its gone, and that's it. In the second case, his donation will result in benefits for himself, and/or his company, which will in turn mean increased income.

Not only is the latter case obviously the better choice from pretty well any objective criteria, but the latter case also means that he is able to continue giving donations, and even give larger donations, because his first donation results in further profits.

I'm not naive, and I'm fully aware that there are companies who will make such contributions without any real desire to help others, but only out of a cynical desire to use such contributions to their own benefit. But to classify all -- or even the majority -- of such contributions as being like that is, in my opinion and my experience, quite an untrue and unfair characterization.
 
Now of course one could argue that appeals to self-interest empirically generates the best economic outcomes -- and that's exactly what Adam Smith claimed 150 years before Ayn Rand. The most quoted passage from _Wealth of Nations_: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages."
Do you disagree with that?

I expect not. And that is exactly what Rand was claiming.

Maybe it can be found in _The Fountainhead_, the only Rand novel I actually read.
Then perhaps you should read Atlas Shrugged. It's stylistically flawed (to put it mildly), but as a defense of capitalism - the "Capitalist Manifesto", if you will - it is unsurpassed. Read it with an open, yet critical - dare I say skeptical? - mind, because there is a lot of wisdom in it. One of my favorite nuggets that I keep in my personal skeptic's toolbox is (paraphrasing) the admonition that "There are no contradictions. If you think you have encountered a contradiction, examine your premises, because one of them is wrong."

Especially to beastly, socially maladjusted male adolescents this supremely self-confident crap -- that is rationalization for greed, self-interest, up-yours mentality, has deep appeal.
This is confirmation of your claim that you haven't read Atlas Shrugged, because anyone who's read it and understood it would not make a statement like that. Her point is that everyone will be better off when everyone is free to look after his own self-interest, and is free to interact with others to the extent that he harms no one else. The dystopia she describes in Atlas Shrugged, where pretty much the entire world has gone communist, is the result of the "up yours" mentality which allows me to demand the results of your labor simply because I think I need it.
 
This is confirmation of your claim that you haven't read Atlas Shrugged, because anyone who's read it and understood it would not make a statement like that.
= "If you disagree with my Looney Toons ideology, you are therefore wrong".

*snicker*

because there is a lot of wisdom in it.
A bit like saying there's nutritional value in arsenic.

The dystopia she describes in Atlas Shrugged, where pretty much the entire world has gone communist, is the result of
the result of Rand's very peculiar and oddball POV. Nothing else.
Mind you, she was deeply prejudiced against gays as well, and the rape fantasies are ..... well, interesting.
 
Altruism: unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others

Yeah, real immoral there, altruism is almost worse than torturing small children.

Why are you pointing out that you haven't taken the time to comprehend why people think altruism is immoral?
 
= "If you disagree with my Looney Toons ideology, you are therefore wrong".

*snicker*


A bit like saying there's nutritional value in arsenic.


the result of Rand's very peculiar and oddball POV. Nothing else.
Mind you, she was deeply prejudiced against gays as well, and the rape fantasies are ..... well, interesting.
Yet another content-free, ad hom-rich post from Gurdur. As surprising as a traffic jam on I-95 at 5:00 on the Friday before Independence Day weekend.
 
I reread Atlas Shrugged every few years. Not only do I enjoy the read, but I get quite angry.

I agree with most of Rand's philosophy.

Reality is moving uncomfortably close to her vision of consequences.
 
Her point is that everyone will be better off when everyone is free to look after his own self-interest, and is free to interact with others to the extent that he harms no one else.


Everyone will be better off? Even those people who simply can't compete? I can understand how maybe people who already have or know how to get are better off looking after their own self-interest (on a purely mercenary level), but you can't possibly believe that there is no one around who is better off when someone else looks after their interests -- feeds and shelters them.

The dystopia she describes in Atlas Shrugged, where pretty much the entire world has gone communist, is the result of the "up yours" mentality which allows me to demand the results of your labor simply because I think I need it.


That could just as well describe a capitalist system. Just add in the little part about how you can make a choice to produce for me at the subsistence wage I'll pay, your you can make the choice to starve instead. If I happen to have a monopoly over the labor market, it's in my self-interest to pay no more than what it takes to keep my workers from falling dead in the gutter. I would be interested in concrete intersections between the world of Atlas Shrugged and reality.
 
I'm talking about taxes and regulations, jimtron, and when they are justified through arguments of social responsibility.

One can also make the argument that there are some things which are public goods, such as common defense and clean air, which we all derive a benefit from, and should therefore pay into. Otherwise, self-interest will lead to free riders. You can't design an air pollution policy wherein people who don't pay into the program get worse air, and you can't design a national defense plan in which people who don't pay for troops aren't protected. Well, presumably you might be able to, but it would severely compromise the integrity of the plan.
 
So I am wondering about a couple of data points. First volunteerism, are volunteer firefighters and ambulances immoral? It would seem so.

Also what about nursing homes, it would be in my self interest to stop these unproductive drains on resources I would think.
 
So I am wondering about a couple of data points. First volunteerism, are volunteer firefighters and ambulances immoral? It would seem so.

Also what about nursing homes, it would be in my self interest to stop these unproductive drains on resources I would think.

No, if old people have nothing to offer you, you should kick them to the curb to be eaten by roving dogs. You might say, "We have an interest in taking care of old people because you might one day be old." But there's no direct reciprocity or exhange there, so I don't know if a fundamentalist Randite would make that kind of an arguement.
 
One can also make the argument that there are some things which are public goods, such as common defense and clean air, which we all derive a benefit from, and should therefore pay into. Otherwise, self-interest will lead to free riders. You can't design an air pollution policy wherein people who don't pay into the program get worse air, and you can't design a national defense plan in which people who don't pay for troops aren't protected. Well, presumably you might be able to, but it would severely compromise the integrity of the plan.

That's true, ImaginalDisc (that one can make the argument, at least), but it isn't really the topic of this thread.

Heck, I'm in favor of both a national defense and a tax on pollution (a tax, not the arbitrary kinds of regulation we have today. Taxes provide all sorts of incentives that quotas can't). Pollution is clearly an example where there's an absence of a market, since there's a negative externality that can't be internalized. The reason it can't be internalized is that there are ridiculous transaction costs involved- that is, it's realistically impossible to enforce property rights over people's air (though if someone came up with a system, I'd be interested).

Ayn Rand even notes that national defense is one of the very few "proper roles of government." I'm not sure how she feels about environmental restrictions, but either way it's not the topic of the thread, which primarily addresses redistribution and regulation.
 

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