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Tags homeopathy , spectroscopy

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Old 15th July 2007, 08:44 PM   #1
Gavinimurthy
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Key Conclusions

• Homeopathic remedies are spectroscopically distinct from the original solvent (water/ ethanol).

• Different potencies can be distinctly distinguished by the UV-VIS and the Raman spectra.

• Nat Mur and Nux Vomica are distinctly different while the same potencies with different succussion also show a clear evidence of difference in the structure of the individual samples.

• No studies /claims whatsoever on the clinical effects of the remedies are made.

http://www.rustumroy.com/May%2016th%20Webinar.pdf

Murthy
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Old 15th July 2007, 08:55 PM   #2
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It's a lecture. What's your point?
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Old 15th July 2007, 08:57 PM   #3
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I see no mention of a peer reviewed paper or double blinding procedures.
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Old 15th July 2007, 09:07 PM   #4
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They're talking about polymerized water. Water doesn't polymerize.

They hang great importance on the fact that their homeopathic samples show different spectroscopic readings to the pure solvent. For this to be meaningful, however, they would have to first show that the samples are chemically pure solvent. The best way to do that is with spectroscopic analysis...

Long story short, their samples are contaminated, and the whole thing is utter nonsense.
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Old 15th July 2007, 09:21 PM   #5
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I spent a little more time on it. It's still utter nonsense.

They propose variations in the structure of water polymers as a mechanism for homeopathic effects without first establishing that water polymerizes. (It doesn't.)

Then they suggest that this is shown by the variations in the spectroscopic signatures of the samples, without testing control samples of known water polymers, which they can't do, because water doesn't polymerize.

As Wollery points out, the study wasn't blinded. Normally you might not need to blind a spectroscopic analysis, but when it comes to homeopathy, it would be a good idea.

There are no controls. None.

What they do have, in abundance, are unsupported (or known false) assumptions and appeals to authority.
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Old 15th July 2007, 09:47 PM   #6
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Furthermore, the guy giving the talk is the editor-in-chief of the journal which published the research (yes, I'm sorry, it was published research) which proudly states;

Because of its super peer review procedures, the journal is especially suited for the publication of results which are so new, so unexpected, that they are likely to be rejected by tradition-bound journals. Presumptive authors are invited to submit papers covering non-traditional topics at the frontier of science and technology and their management.

http://www.maney.co.uk/search?fwaction=show&fwid=705

Of course, it doesn't say what these super peer review procedures actually are.

In other words, "If no genuine scientific journal will publish your crap send it to us, because we'll publish anything that we like."
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Old 16th July 2007, 01:08 AM   #7
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Determination of the concentration of a Bryonia Dioica tincture by Raman spectroscopy
Irimie Milea and E. Culea
Technical Univ. of Cluj (Romania)
T. Iliescu
Babes-Bolyai Univ. (Romania)
Janetta Milea
Pediatric Clinic II (Romania)


It was established a method based on Raman spectroscopy in order to control the content and concentration of homeopathic dilutions. Dilutions of a tincture of Bryonia Dioica in ethanol were prepared and investigated by Raman spectroscopy. The Raman line at 881 cm-1 was found to depend linearly versus the concentration of Bryonia Dioica. This permits to obtain a calibration curve that may be used to determine the concentration of Bryonia Dioica in ethanol. The method may be extended to determine the concentration of various homeopathic dilutions.

©2004 COPYRIGHT SPIE--The International Society for Optical Engineering. Downloading of the abstract is permitted for personal use only.


http://spiedl.aip.org/getabs/servlet...vlet?prog=norm al&id=PSISDG002461000001000347000001&idtype=cvips& am p;gifs=yes

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Old 16th July 2007, 01:12 AM   #8
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"Super Peer Review".

Do they wear capes?
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Old 16th July 2007, 01:24 AM   #9
Gavinimurthy
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Quote:
Raman spectroscopy used to identify counterfeit drugs

In our rankings of the world's most evil criminals, we include child molesters, mass murderers, and serial rapists near the top. Yet there is one group we place even higher, for their crimes are motivated solely by the profit motive, unlike the others who are driven mainly by more psychologically complex intentions. We are speaking of counterfeit drug manufacturers and dealers -- those who package useless chemicals in the form of well known AIDS and cancer medications. (We exclude the homeopathic industry, for now.) Such charlatans do more than sell a fraudulent product; they kill people who might otherwise have lived if they had received real medication. Many others die because the counterfeit drugs contain dangerous impurities.

Fortunately, scientists at the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory in Didcot, United Kingdom have developed a method of identifying fakes while concealed within their packaging. (A legitimate-looking wrapper is far more important to the criminal's plans than a authentic looking pill.)
http://hsdailywire.com/showNews.php?...tm#article3271

Murthy

Mod Warning
Gavinimurthy, I have redacted part of the article; in the future, please post only excerpts and the link in order to avoid copyright violations.

Thanks
Posted By:jmercer

Last edited by jmercer; 16th July 2007 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 16th July 2007, 01:29 AM   #10
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Did someone open a can of processed ham?
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Old 16th July 2007, 01:51 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Gavinimurthy View Post
Determination of the concentration of a Bryonia Dioica tincture by Raman spectroscopy
Irimie Milea and E. Culea
Technical Univ. of Cluj (Romania)
T. Iliescu
Babes-Bolyai Univ. (Romania)
Janetta Milea
Pediatric Clinic II (Romania)


It was established a method based on Raman spectroscopy in order to control the content and concentration of homeopathic dilutions. Dilutions of a tincture of Bryonia Dioica in ethanol were prepared and investigated by Raman spectroscopy. The Raman line at 881 cm-1 was found to depend linearly versus the concentration of Bryonia Dioica. This permits to obtain a calibration curve that may be used to determine the concentration of Bryonia Dioica in ethanol. The method may be extended to determine the concentration of various homeopathic dilutions.

©2004 COPYRIGHT SPIE--The International Society for Optical Engineering. Downloading of the abstract is permitted for personal use only.


http://spiedl.aip.org/getabs/servlet...vlet?prog=norm al&id=PSISDG002461000001000347000001&idtype=cvips& am p;gifs=yes

Murthy
Murthy, do you understand why this has absolutely NOTHING to do with homeopathy? And I mean NOTHING AT ALL?

If you do understand, why do we need to read this simple report?

If you don't understand, perhaps you should do some basic education for yourself and study until you DO understand.
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Old 16th July 2007, 01:52 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Gavinimurthy View Post
Raman spectroscopy used to identify counterfeit drugs

In our rankings of the world's most evil criminals, we include child molesters, mass murderers, and serial rapists near the top. Yet there is one group we place even higher, for their crimes are motivated solely by the profit motive, unlike the others who are driven mainly by more psychologically complex intentions. We are speaking of counterfeit drug manufacturers and dealers -- those who package useless chemicals in the form of well known AIDS and cancer medications. (We exclude the homeopathic industry, for now.) Such charlatans do more than sell a fraudulent product; they kill people who might otherwise have lived if they had received real medication. Many others die because the counterfeit drugs contain dangerous impurities.

Fortunately, scientists at the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory in Didcot, United Kingdom have developed a method of identifying fakes while concealed within their packaging. (A legitimate-looking wrapper is far more important to the criminal's plans than a authentic looking pill.) As with many advanced detection systems these days, the Rutherford detector uses a variant of Raman spectroscopy. This approach uses laser light to collect infrared reflections from sample chemicals, each of which emits a unique range of frequencies, producing a unique spectral fingerprint for that substance that is collected at the exact point were the laser is focused. Up until now, however, this approach was useless if the chemicals being detected were encased in packaging.

To overcome this, the Rutherford researchers modified their spectrometer to collect the reflected signal at a slight distance from the point where the laser is focused. According to New Scientist, "this works because Raman signals generated deep within a sample shift sideways slightly before exiting the surface, unlike those generated on the surface itself. The signal from the packaging surface is effectively diluted, while that from the drug inside is amplified." The idea is to go in sideways and avoid the blinding signal from the surface. The scientists have successfully tested the method on paracetamol and ibuprofen, both in blister packs and plastic containers.

-read more in Andy Coghlan's New Scientist report

http://hsdailywire.com/showNews.php?...tm#article3271

Murthy
Murthy,

Again, can I ask if you understand ANYTHING that you have posted here? How and why does it relate to homeopathy? (Here's a clue: It doesn't.)
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Old 16th July 2007, 02:13 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Dr Adequate View Post
"Super Peer Review".

Do they wear capes?
I take it to mean "super" as in "beyond"--meaning it's NOT peer reviewed.

Gavin, comments invited, but totally ignored, right?
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Old 16th July 2007, 02:26 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
I take it to mean "super" as in "beyond"--meaning it's NOT peer reviewed.

Gavin, comments invited, but totally ignored, right?

Bingo.

Super as in "supernatural".
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Old 16th July 2007, 02:27 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Dr Adequate View Post
"Super Peer Review".

Do they wear capes?
Look, up in the sky! Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No! It's woo-man!
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Old 16th July 2007, 03:23 AM   #16
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Rustum's lecture has some wonderful "pictures" of H2O polymers.

The captions read as follows:
Quote:
The enormous variety of structures of the molecules in which almost certainly the chemical entity H2O can exist. The well known H2O monomer with its precisely defined tetrahedral angle is shown on the top left and below it a series of dimers, trimers, tetramers which can be constructed on paper from the relatively rigid H2O molecule.
Quote:
This figure shows some of the larger polyhedra which are presumed to exist.
In other words, he just made it all up.
I am just surprised he admits he just drew them on a bit of paper and doesn’t opt for the usual woo formula of “multidimensional energy fractal integrative computer modelling”.
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Old 16th July 2007, 04:59 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Deetee View Post
I am just surprised he admits he just drew them on a bit of paper and doesn’t opt for the usual woo formula of “multidimensional energy fractal integrative computer modelling”.
I believe those at the front of the field now rely on multidimensional energy fractal integrative quantum computer modelling, which of course can be accelerated by facing magnetic north.
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Old 16th July 2007, 05:12 AM   #18
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Rustrum Roy is the new hero of the homeopathic community, so we'd better wade through his stuff and get the debunkery ready, because this is not the last we're gonna hear about it.

Hi Murthy, btw.

Hans
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Old 16th July 2007, 05:15 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Zep View Post
Murthy, do you understand why this has absolutely NOTHING to do with homeopathy? And I mean NOTHING AT ALL?

If you do understand, why do we need to read this simple report?

If you don't understand, perhaps you should do some basic education for yourself and study until you DO understand.
The word homeopathy is mentioned in the report. Not by me.

Murthy
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Old 16th July 2007, 05:19 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
As Wollery points out, the study wasn't blinded. Normally you might not need to blind a spectroscopic analysis, but when it comes to homeopathy, it would be a good idea.

There are no controls. None.
Normally, you wouldn't require contols in a physics experiment, but spectroscopy is special, because it is so sensitive that it can detect extremely minute amounts of substances (in principle, single molecules). Even if you don't think reporting bias is an issue, you need to make calibration controls, because otherwise you don't really know what you are detecting.

Hans
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Old 16th July 2007, 05:21 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Rustrum Roy is the new hero of the homeopathic community, so we'd better wade through his stuff and get the debunkery ready, because this is not the last we're gonna hear about it.

Hi Murthy, btw.

Hans
Hi Hans

I really woud like to hear about the short comings in this study, if any, in a scientific way, ofcourse.

Are there any material science specialists here?

Murthy
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Old 16th July 2007, 05:27 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by wollery View Post
Of course, it doesn't say what these super peer review procedures actually are.

It does on this page:
Quote:
Super peer review is based on reviewing the authors, not the particular piece of work. Moreover, that review can be done easily and on objective criteria. What is the major criterion? That the author (at least one) shall have published in the open, often peer-reviewed (!!) literature, a large (30-50 papers) body of work.

It's more usually called "appeal to authority".
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Old 16th July 2007, 05:40 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Taffer View Post
It's a lecture. What's your point?
Originally Posted by wollery View Post
I see no mention of a peer reviewed paper or double blinding procedures.
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Rustrum Roy is the new hero of the homeopathic community, so we'd better wade through his stuff and get the debunkery ready, because this is not the last we're gonna hear about it.

The paper referenced on page 5 of the powerpoint lecture notes Murthy linked to can be found here: The Structure of Liquid Water; Novel Insights from Materials Research; Potential Relevance to Homeopathy.
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Old 16th July 2007, 06:36 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
It does on this page:

Quote:
Super peer review is based on reviewing the authors, not the particular piece of work. Moreover, that review can be done easily and on objective criteria. What is the major criterion? That the author (at least one) shall have published in the open, often peer-reviewed (!!) literature, a large (30-50 papers) body of work.
It's more usually called "appeal to authority".
It's also called "my mate wrote this" and "I couldn't get anyone else to publish this sort of work, so I started my own journal with some mates who were also having problems".
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Old 16th July 2007, 08:04 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Gavinimurthy View Post
We are speaking of counterfeit drug manufacturers and dealers -- those who package useless chemicals in the form of well known AIDS and cancer medications. (We exclude the homeopathic industry, for now.) Such charlatans do more than sell a fraudulent product; they kill people who might otherwise have lived if they had received real medication. Many others die because the counterfeit drugs contain dangerous impurities.

Why exclude the homoeopathic industry?
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Old 16th July 2007, 08:08 AM   #26
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I too am curious. Why exclude homeopathic medicines?

Murthy
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Old 16th July 2007, 08:12 AM   #27
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Well, you posted the quotation. Perhaps you can tell us why the homoeopathic industry should be excluded when someone is talking about "charlatans [who] do more than sell a fraudulent product; they kill people who might otherwise have lived if they had received real medication". I can't for the life of me see why.
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Old 16th July 2007, 08:15 AM   #28
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That is a news item. It is interesting .

Murthy
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Old 16th July 2007, 08:18 AM   #29
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OMG, he's channeling T'ai Chi!
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Old 16th July 2007, 08:31 AM   #30
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Old 16th July 2007, 09:37 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Normally, you wouldn't require contols in a physics experiment, but spectroscopy is special, because it is so sensitive that it can detect extremely minute amounts of substances (in principle, single molecules). Even if you don't think reporting bias is an issue, you need to make calibration controls, because otherwise you don't really know what you are detecting.
Right.

At a minimum, they should have prepared a sample of solvent through the usual dilution/succussion sequence, but without any initial active ingredient.
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Old 16th July 2007, 09:40 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Gavinimurthy View Post
Hi Hans

I really woud like to hear about the short comings in this study, if any, in a scientific way, ofcourse.

Are there any material science specialists here?
It's very simple:

The study posits polymerized water as a mechanism for homeopathy.

WATER DOESN'T POLYMERIZE.

The study is total garbage.
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Old 16th July 2007, 10:19 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by articulett View Post
Bingo.

Super as in "supernatural".
So it was reviewed by someone's spirit guides and they said "good stuff, man".
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Old 16th July 2007, 10:31 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Dr Adequate View Post
"Super Peer Review".

Do they wear capes?
Maybe they started out with "Super-Duper Groovy Peer Review", but considered upon reflection that it might not sound very professional?
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Old 16th July 2007, 11:11 AM   #35
Michael C
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Mr Roy, who insists that liquid water has a structure, also says that this structure changes easily (quote from the lecture referenced in the OP):

"The mixture of well known hydrogen bonds and previously totally ignored van der Waals bonds means that water structure is easily changed by:
• Pressure and temperature
• Epitaxy(special relation to SiO2phases)
• Nanobubbleinclusions
• Radiation of various kinds
• Magnetic and electric fields"

So all those homeopathic remedies are altered by changes in temperature, pressure, electric fields, etc.? How do you ensure that the original "structure" is still present when you take the remedy?
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Old 16th July 2007, 11:19 AM   #36
JJM
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Against my better instincts, I did waste some time scanning Roy's slide-show that was cited http://www.rustumroy.com/May%2016th%20Webinar.pdf and I have a serious problem with slide/page 28. He claims it shows the spectra of pure ethanol superimposed on three dilutions (6C, 12C and 30C) of nux vomica. To me, it looks like a spectrum of dirty ethanol, superimposed on background spectra. By "background," I mean the absorbance of the cuvette itself (or, pure ethanol- although I doubt it). Unfortunately, when I retired I donated all my handbooks, and compendia of spectral tables, to an assistant professor 900 miles from here; so I can't be sure.
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Old 16th July 2007, 01:40 PM   #37
JJM
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Wait a minute- Aldrich Chemicals has spectral information online http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/...il/SIAL/493511 and ethanol does not have significant absorbance in the range 270-400 nm. The figure on p. 28 of Roy's slide show is definitely bogus. Pure ethanol certainly does not have a maximum at 325. I continue to think Roy shows a spectrum for contaminated ethanol, and the others simply represent use of a glass cuvette (rather than quartz). Glass absorbs UV, and is not suitable for use at short wavelengths.
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Old 16th July 2007, 05:10 PM   #38
krazyKemist
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Personally, I have a problem with comparing solid phases with a liquid one. Like using the different forms of ice to presume the same forms exist for a long period of time in liquid of gas.

The problem is that the definition of a liquid basically says that these interactions (H-bonding is what is discussed there) will be shifting on a short timeframe (have to get my nose in a textbook to bring back some numbers for this). Temperature (kinetic energy) is what makes them shift. You may have what is called an "hydration shell" around a given solute (I think that is what is implied in there) but water molecules will be exchanged often in them, with the result that they can't remain in that shape once the solute is gone (which is what happen in homeopathy, per definition). Unless you remove kinetic energy (that is, freeze the water) and then remove the solute molecules. Good luck doing that.

In fewer words, there are large sections of thermodynamics against this phenomenon.

the Kemist
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Old 16th July 2007, 08:23 PM   #39
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from roy's paper. any discussion?

Miyazaki et al. (Science, May 21, 2004) show infrared spectroscopic evidence for oligomers of different shape and sizes from n=4-27 in (H2O)n [41]. Shin et al. (May 21, 2004) present intriguing IR data near the 3.7μ O-H stretching band in oligomers from 6-27, around the “magic number” of n=21 [42]. From neither of these papers can one tell whether the authors believe that water—all waters under undelimited conditions—contain 100% of these molecules, or a majority. Nor is there any comment on how such clusters are distributed in space, or whether different size clusters are themselves formed into separate regions of the nano-heterogeneous bulk water.

****
Clearly the origin of some of the inherent confusion in the field is based on the materials scientists’ and the chemists’ use of the same term to mean different things. Chemists use “structure” to describe the structure of the molecules or ‘structural building blocks.’ Materials Scientists use “structure” to describe the 3-D structural architecture of the material. The former describe the size and shape of the bricks or cement blocks; the latter describe the shape and size of the walls and the room and how the bricks and blocks are arranged within it.
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Old 16th July 2007, 10:31 PM   #40
Gavinimurthy
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Originally Posted by JJM View Post
Wait a minute- Aldrich Chemicals has spectral information online http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/...il/SIAL/493511 and ethanol does not have significant absorbance in the range 270-400 nm. The figure on p. 28 of Roy's slide show is definitely bogus. Pure ethanol certainly does not have a maximum at 325. I continue to think Roy shows a spectrum for contaminated ethanol, and the others simply represent use of a glass cuvette (rather than quartz). Glass absorbs UV, and is not suitable for use at short wavelengths.
There are nine types of ethanols mentioned on this site.

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/...ePage/14577624

See the data for 493546 Ethanol.

UV absorption λ: 240 nm Amax: 0.40

λ: 250 nm Amax: 0.30

λ: 260 nm Amax: 0.30

λ: 270 nm Amax: 0.10

λ: 340 nm Amax: 0.10

*************

This is the data for specroscopic grade

UV absorption λ: 210 nm Amax: 0.40

λ: 220 nm Amax: 0.25

λ: 230 nm Amax: 0.15

λ: 240 nm Amax: 0.05

λ: 270-400 nm Amax: 0.01

The difference of absorbance between the two grades is self explanatory.

So, we can't jump to conclusions and declare the study of a reputed professor as bogus.

Perhaps 'selective blindness'?

Murthy
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