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#1 |
Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 155
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comments invited
Key Conclusions
• Homeopathic remedies are spectroscopically distinct from the original solvent (water/ ethanol). • Different potencies can be distinctly distinguished by the UV-VIS and the Raman spectra. • Nat Mur and Nux Vomica are distinctly different while the same potencies with different succussion also show a clear evidence of difference in the structure of the individual samples. • No studies /claims whatsoever on the clinical effects of the remedies are made. http://www.rustumroy.com/May%2016th%20Webinar.pdf Murthy |
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#2 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,530
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It's a lecture. What's your point?
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#3 |
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I see no mention of a peer reviewed paper or double blinding procedures.
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"You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin |
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#4 |
Persnickety Insect
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sunny Munuvia
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They're talking about polymerized water. Water doesn't polymerize.
They hang great importance on the fact that their homeopathic samples show different spectroscopic readings to the pure solvent. For this to be meaningful, however, they would have to first show that the samples are chemically pure solvent. The best way to do that is with spectroscopic analysis... Long story short, their samples are contaminated, and the whole thing is utter nonsense. |
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#5 |
Persnickety Insect
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sunny Munuvia
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I spent a little more time on it. It's still utter nonsense.
They propose variations in the structure of water polymers as a mechanism for homeopathic effects without first establishing that water polymerizes. (It doesn't.) Then they suggest that this is shown by the variations in the spectroscopic signatures of the samples, without testing control samples of known water polymers, which they can't do, because water doesn't polymerize. As Wollery points out, the study wasn't blinded. Normally you might not need to blind a spectroscopic analysis, but when it comes to homeopathy, it would be a good idea. There are no controls. None. What they do have, in abundance, are unsupported (or known false) assumptions and appeals to authority. |
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Free blogs for skeptics... And everyone else. mee.nu What, in the Holy Name of Gzortch, are you people doing?!?!!? - TGHO |
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#6 |
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Furthermore, the guy giving the talk is the editor-in-chief of the journal which published the research (yes, I'm sorry, it was published research) which proudly states;
Because of its super peer review procedures, the journal is especially suited for the publication of results which are so new, so unexpected, that they are likely to be rejected by tradition-bound journals. Presumptive authors are invited to submit papers covering non-traditional topics at the frontier of science and technology and their management. http://www.maney.co.uk/search?fwaction=show&fwid=705 Of course, it doesn't say what these super peer review procedures actually are. In other words, "If no genuine scientific journal will publish your crap send it to us, because we'll publish anything that we like." |
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"You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin |
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#7 |
Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 155
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Determination of the concentration of a Bryonia Dioica tincture by Raman spectroscopy
Irimie Milea and E. Culea Technical Univ. of Cluj (Romania) T. Iliescu Babes-Bolyai Univ. (Romania) Janetta Milea Pediatric Clinic II (Romania) It was established a method based on Raman spectroscopy in order to control the content and concentration of homeopathic dilutions. Dilutions of a tincture of Bryonia Dioica in ethanol were prepared and investigated by Raman spectroscopy. The Raman line at 881 cm-1 was found to depend linearly versus the concentration of Bryonia Dioica. This permits to obtain a calibration curve that may be used to determine the concentration of Bryonia Dioica in ethanol. The method may be extended to determine the concentration of various homeopathic dilutions. ©2004 COPYRIGHT SPIE--The International Society for Optical Engineering. Downloading of the abstract is permitted for personal use only. http://spiedl.aip.org/getabs/servlet...vlet?prog=norm al&id=PSISDG002461000001000347000001&idtype=cvips& am p;gifs=yes Murthy |
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#8 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,766
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"Super Peer Review".
Do they wear capes? |
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#9 | ||
Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 155
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Quote:
Murthy
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#10 |
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Did someone open a can of processed ham?
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"You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin |
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#11 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Murthy, do you understand why this has absolutely NOTHING to do with homeopathy? And I mean NOTHING AT ALL?
If you do understand, why do we need to read this simple report? If you don't understand, perhaps you should do some basic education for yourself and study until you DO understand. |
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#12 |
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#13 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2006
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"That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons |
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#14 |
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#15 |
Illuminator
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#16 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Rustum's lecture has some wonderful "pictures" of H2O polymers.
The captions read as follows:
Quote:
Quote:
I am just surprised he admits he just drew them on a bit of paper and doesn’t opt for the usual woo formula of “multidimensional energy fractal integrative computer modelling”. |
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"Reci bobu bob a popu pop." - Tanja "Everything is physics. This does not mean that physics is everything." - Cuddles "The entire practice of homeopathy can be substituted with the advice to "take two aspirins and call me in the morning." - Linda "Homeopathy: I never knew there was so little in it." - BSM |
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#17 |
Critical Thinker
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#18 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Rustrum Roy is the new hero of the homeopathic community, so we'd better wade through his stuff and get the debunkery ready, because this is not the last we're gonna hear about it.
Hi Murthy, btw. Hans |
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Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills. |
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#19 |
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#20 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Normally, you wouldn't require contols in a physics experiment, but spectroscopy is special, because it is so sensitive that it can detect extremely minute amounts of substances (in principle, single molecules). Even if you don't think reporting bias is an issue, you need to make calibration controls, because otherwise you don't really know what you are detecting.
Hans |
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#21 |
Thinker
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#22 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#23 |
Mostly harmless
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The paper referenced on page 5 of the powerpoint lecture notes Murthy linked to can be found here: The Structure of Liquid Water; Novel Insights from Materials Research; Potential Relevance to Homeopathy. |
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#24 |
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"You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin |
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#25 |
Mostly harmless
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#26 |
Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2005
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I too am curious. Why exclude homeopathic medicines?
Murthy |
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#27 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Well, you posted the quotation. Perhaps you can tell us why the homoeopathic industry should be excluded when someone is talking about "charlatans [who] do more than sell a fraudulent product; they kill people who might otherwise have lived if they had received real medication". I can't for the life of me see why.
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#28 |
Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2005
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That is a news item. It is interesting .
Murthy |
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#29 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
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OMG, he's channeling T'ai Chi!
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#30 |
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"You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin |
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#33 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2006
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#34 |
Cuddly Like a Koala Bear
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#35 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Mr Roy, who insists that liquid water has a structure, also says that this structure changes easily (quote from the lecture referenced in the OP):
"The mixture of well known hydrogen bonds and previously totally ignored van der Waals bonds means that water structure is easily changed by: • Pressure and temperature • Epitaxy(special relation to SiO2phases) • Nanobubbleinclusions • Radiation of various kinds • Magnetic and electric fields" So all those homeopathic remedies are altered by changes in temperature, pressure, electric fields, etc.? How do you ensure that the original "structure" is still present when you take the remedy? |
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#36 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Against my better instincts, I did waste some time scanning Roy's slide-show that was cited http://www.rustumroy.com/May%2016th%20Webinar.pdf and I have a serious problem with slide/page 28. He claims it shows the spectra of pure ethanol superimposed on three dilutions (6C, 12C and 30C) of nux vomica. To me, it looks like a spectrum of dirty ethanol, superimposed on background spectra. By "background," I mean the absorbance of the cuvette itself (or, pure ethanol- although I doubt it). Unfortunately, when I retired I donated all my handbooks, and compendia of spectral tables, to an assistant professor 900 miles from here; so I can't be sure.
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#37 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,853
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Wait a minute- Aldrich Chemicals has spectral information online http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/...il/SIAL/493511 and ethanol does not have significant absorbance in the range 270-400 nm. The figure on p. 28 of Roy's slide show is definitely bogus. Pure ethanol certainly does not have a maximum at 325. I continue to think Roy shows a spectrum for contaminated ethanol, and the others simply represent use of a glass cuvette (rather than quartz). Glass absorbs UV, and is not suitable for use at short wavelengths.
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#38 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 430
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Personally, I have a problem with comparing solid phases with a liquid one. Like using the different forms of ice to presume the same forms exist for a long period of time in liquid of gas.
The problem is that the definition of a liquid basically says that these interactions (H-bonding is what is discussed there) will be shifting on a short timeframe (have to get my nose in a textbook to bring back some numbers for this). Temperature (kinetic energy) is what makes them shift. You may have what is called an "hydration shell" around a given solute (I think that is what is implied in there) but water molecules will be exchanged often in them, with the result that they can't remain in that shape once the solute is gone (which is what happen in homeopathy, per definition). Unless you remove kinetic energy (that is, freeze the water) and then remove the solute molecules. Good luck doing that. In fewer words, there are large sections of thermodynamics against this phenomenon. the Kemist |
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#39 |
Scholar
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 84
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from roy's paper. any discussion?
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#40 |
Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 155
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There are nine types of ethanols mentioned on this site.
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/...ePage/14577624 See the data for 493546 Ethanol. UV absorption λ: 240 nm Amax: 0.40 λ: 250 nm Amax: 0.30 λ: 260 nm Amax: 0.30 λ: 270 nm Amax: 0.10 λ: 340 nm Amax: 0.10 ************* This is the data for specroscopic grade UV absorption λ: 210 nm Amax: 0.40 λ: 220 nm Amax: 0.25 λ: 230 nm Amax: 0.15 λ: 240 nm Amax: 0.05 λ: 270-400 nm Amax: 0.01 The difference of absorbance between the two grades is self explanatory. So, we can't jump to conclusions and declare the study of a reputed professor as bogus. Perhaps 'selective blindness'? Murthy |
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