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A Thermite/Thermate Question

Alareth

Philosopher
Alareth
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
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Location
Jacksonville, FL
Jones bases his thermite theory on sulfur residue at GZ, completely ignoring other obvious sources such as the gypsum wallboard.

What is the actual chemical composition of thermite and what other chemical compounds would be left as residue from burning thermite. Were any found and what other things in the WTC could have left similar traces of these other compounds?

I know I've seen some of these answers around here before, but my search-fu is weak at the moment.
 
barium nitrate, iron oxide.

I also have a question though, sorry to hijack your thread...

I was in a discussion on my 9/11 forum and somebody mentioned that the steel and the sulpher had formed a eutectic mixture. Does anyone have any information on this. Is it true, false? What conditions would need to be met for this to happen.
 
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Alareth said:
What is the actual chemical composition of thermite and what other chemical compounds would be left as residue from burning thermite
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The products of a thermite reaction are aluminum oxide and iron. Claiming either of those as "thermite residue" means every single home built in the last century contains thermite residue.

It gets more complicated when you ask about 'thermate'. The two main additives are sulfur and barium nitrate. Jones focuses heavily on Sulfur because it was there. He ignores barium nitrate. Guess why?
 
tsire said:
barium nitrate, iron oxide.

I also have a question though, sorry to hijack your thread...

I was in a discussion on my 9/11 forum and somebody mentioned that the steel and the sulpher had formed a eutectic mixture. Does anyone have any information on this. Is it true, false? What conditions would need to be met for this to happen.
Click to expand...

It's a possible. Some of the steel that was found in the pile exhibited signs of servre corrosion. It was speculated that this was caused by a eutectic mixing of the sulphur and steel causing it to melt at a lower temperature (about 7-800°C instead of 1500°C) It has never been confirmed as the solution to the problem, but what is know is that the steel that was affected was not in the fire of the collaopse zone. Whether it occured before or after collapse is also unknown, but the speculation is that it occured in the pile.
 
Anti-sophist said:
The products of a thermite reaction are aluminum oxide and iron. Claiming either of those as "thermite residue" means every single home built in the last century contains thermite residue.

It gets more complicated when you ask about 'thermate'. The two main additives are sulfur and barium nitrate. Jones focuses heavily on Sulfur because it was there. He ignores barium nitrate. Guess why?
Click to expand...

he also points to the Manganese and Potassium claiming that it came from Potassium Permanganate a pretty common reducting agent. This ignores that Manganese is added to structural steel to make it stronger by acting as a sulphur reducing agent however.
 
Alareth said:
Jones bases his thermite theory on sulfur residue at GZ, completely ignoring other obvious sources such as the gypsum wallboard.

What is the actual chemical composition of thermite and what other chemical compounds would be left as residue from burning thermite. Were any found and what other things in the WTC could have left similar traces of these other compounds?

I know I've seen some of these answers around here before, but my search-fu is weak at the moment.
Click to expand...
All the elements Jones points to are in concrete and other things of WTC. He made this up in 2005, he could not find support, he was fired. Jones has made up his whole idea out of the blue, it is amazing anyone believes him.
 
PhantomWolf said:
It's a possible. Some of the steel that was found in the pile exhibited signs of servre corrosion. It was speculated that this was caused by a eutectic mixing of the sulphur and steel causing it to melt at a lower temperature (about 7-800°C instead of 1500°C) It has never been confirmed as the solution to the problem, but what is know is that the steel that was affected was not in the fire of the collaopse zone. Whether it occured before or after collapse is also unknown, but the speculation is that it occured in the pile.
Click to expand...

Thank you, that was helpful. the person was claiming it as evidence of termate and that the steel melted because it was mixed in, even though i claimed that, after reading the wiki article on eutectic mixture that it would cause them to melt at a lower temperature then usual.
 
PhantomWolf said:
It's a possible. Some of the steel that was found in the pile exhibited signs of servre corrosion. It was speculated that this was caused by a eutectic mixing of the sulphur and steel causing it to melt at a lower temperature (about 7-800°C instead of 1500°C) It has never been confirmed as the solution to the problem, but what is know is that the steel that was affected was not in the fire of the collaopse zone. Whether it occured before or after collapse is also unknown, but the speculation is that it occured in the pile.
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An Initial Microstructural Analysis of A36 Steel from WTC Building 7

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Biederman/Biederman-0112.html
 
Barium is everywhere in an office building. It is in flourescent lights and some LEDs and in palstics and paint. Had he not found barium, it would set off an alarm. That would be Judy Wood wierd.

There is a cast thermite that I occassionally make which uses a sugar and potassium permangante igniter, but then, potassium and manganese are quite common elements. There is potassium in any tissue. Probably some in many paint pigments. Manganese, obviously, would have been present in the steel.

Sulphur is the easiest to explain. There were vehicles, with batteries full of suplhuric acid solution. There were probably emergency lights with lead-acid batteries. The rubber in tires and batteries contains sulphur.

The steel was almost certainly exposed to sulphuric acid.

I also recall reports of traces of copper in some steel samples. Sulphuric acid acting on steel and copper from wiring or plumbing, would definitely set up an electrolysis that would copper-plate the steel.

Absent a thermite-cut column, Jones has got a collander full of "looks like."
 
leftysergeant said:
Sulphur is the easiest to explain. There were vehicles, with batteries full of suplhuric acid solution. There were probably emergency lights with lead-acid batteries. The rubber in tires and batteries contains sulphur.
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Sheetrock contains sulphur. Google "garden sulphur" for lots of examples of use by gardeners.
 
yea but how do you release Sulphur from Gypsum to sulfidize steel ,also how does sulphur in the gypsum free itself of calcium and form onto the iron microspheres?
Do you really think there were car batteries in wtc 7?or light bulbs emmitted so much sulpuric acid they ate holes into steel?

Either way it proves extremely high temperatures were at the wtc and extra engergeitics were needed to get the iron to melt into spheres, and sulpur to sulfidize steel
 
Lead-acid batteries are very commonly used in backup power supplies for computers. In fact, there's a failed battery pack from one of the UPSs we use in our ProTools rigs sitting right next to me right now. It contains four sealed unspillable lead-acid batteries (at least that's what the text stamped into the mounting tray says). They're also commonly used for other backup power applications, e.g., in fire alarm systems.

So, do I think it likely that there were lead-acid batteries (not to be confused with "car batteries", which are lead-acid batteries designed to provide high currents for short periods when starting the engine) in offices at the WTC? Yes, it's highly likely that there were- in individual UPSs protecting individual computers or banked up in office-wide backup power systems.

As for your other questions, I'm an electronics geek, not a chemist. It might be worth mentioning, though, that the argument from personal incredulity, which is essentially what you're making, is a very weak form of reasoning.
 
GodisEnergy said:
yea but how do you release Sulphur from Gypsum to sulfidize steel ,also how does sulphur in the gypsum free itself of calcium and form onto the iron microspheres?
Do you really think there were car batteries in wtc 7?or light bulbs emmitted so much sulpuric acid they ate holes into steel?

Either way it proves extremely high temperatures were at the wtc and extra engergeitics were needed to get the iron to melt into spheres, and sulpur to sulfidize steel
Click to expand...

The "microspheres" are a totally separate issue from the sulfidation, and from thermite.

Most in the Truth Movement looking for "microspheres" point to the RJ Lee Report, but fail to note that the samples for this report are taken nine months after the structures collapsed. These microspheres are doubtless from cutting torches used to help clear the debris.

There are also microspheres -- a few -- found in earlier dust reports, but the leading hypothesis for these is that they were present in the fly ash mixed in with the concrete during construction. Iron microspheres are all over the place, and are not indicative of thermite.

The only certain signatures of thermite would be unfired devices, remains of fired devices (e.g. containment vessels, which have not even been hypothesized), large "pigs" of formerly molten iron, or particular melting failure modes found in recovered steel. Absolutely none of these signatures was found anywhere. And yes, they were looking for them.
 
iron spheres were found in samples of dust taken by steven jones.The dust is from the collapse which is before the cleanup.Found readily with a magnet he extrapolated 10tonnes of it .
He also claims there is sulphur in the hallow sphere which indicates sulpur gas.
 
GodisEnergy said:
iron spheres were found in samples of dust taken by steven jones.The dust is from the collapse which is before the cleanup.Found readily with a magnet he extrapolated 10tonnes of it .
He also claims there is sulphur in the hallow sphere which indicates sulpur gas.
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NoTM.

Also, it's worth noting that his dust samples are taken from a household of artists, specializing in metalwork, with no controls whatsoever.

Dr. Jones's latest dust update contained a radically different selection of elemental species, none of which are inconsistent with earlier studies such as Lioy et al.

I'm afraid you're at the losing end of a game of "telephone." Dr. Jones does not make those claims, and the claims he does make are unsupportable.
 
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yea i havent yet seen iron spheres i can literally hold with my fingers in a painters studio .
The different chemicals in iron sphericles is because different types of thermites were used ,thermite ,thermate with sulphur adding different chemicals changes cutting speed and also leaves different residues which are a hayday for the debunkers who they knew would come out in force like when oaklahoma or jfk happened.
 
GodisEnergy said:
iron spheres were found in samples of dust taken by steven jones.The dust is from the collapse which is before the cleanup.Found readily with a magnet he extrapolated 10tonnes of it .
He also claims there is sulphur in the hallow sphere which indicates sulpur gas.
Click to expand...

GodisEnergy said:
yea i havent yet seen iron spheres i can literally hold with my fingers in a painters studio .
The different chemicals in iron sphericles is because different types of thermites were used ,thermite ,thermate with sulphur adding different chemicals changes cutting speed and also leaves different residues which are a hayday for the debunkers who they knew would come out in force like when oaklahoma or jfk happened.
Click to expand...

Well, just as long as that makes sense to you.

Take care.
 
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