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Old 20th August 2007, 01:10 AM   #1
ref
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Kevin Ryan credits himself for the NIST report delay

Kevin Ryan seems to have brushed off his loss in court. He does his usual ranting at 9/11 blogger. This time he even credits himself for delaying the NIST report for 7 months.

http://www.911blogger.com/node/10744

Originally Posted by Kevin Ryan
When I challenged them on this, noting that steel softens at around 1000 °C, they started having closed door meetings and put their report off another seven months. Interestingly, the word “softened” does not appear anywhere in NIST’s final report.
He also states that around million people have been killed in the US wars after 9/11. I guess, when you have some figures wrong, you have them all wrong.
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Old 20th August 2007, 01:30 AM   #2
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When you don't require any "facts" to begin with, who cares if you invent new ones?
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Old 20th August 2007, 06:20 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by ref View Post
He also states that around million people have been killed in the US wars after 9/11. I guess, when you have some figures wrong, you have them all wrong.
He is using , and exagerating numbers that include civilian deaths obviously.

The estimates I have seen elsewhere put the numbers in the hundreds of thousands and include deaths due to such things as lack of medical care, lack of clean water,disease, etc.

Ryan is rounding rather severely. His point would be better served had he simply said "hundreds of thousands", or "over a hundred thousand". Then again Ryan knows he is preaching to the converted and the uninformed.
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Old 20th August 2007, 12:38 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
He is using , and exagerating numbers that include civilian deaths obviously.

The estimates I have seen elsewhere put the numbers in the hundreds of thousands and include deaths due to such things as lack of medical care, lack of clean water,disease, etc.

Ryan is rounding rather severely. His point would be better served had he simply said "hundreds of thousands", or "over a hundred thousand". Then again Ryan knows he is preaching to the converted and the uninformed.
I have seen them use 600 000 a lot, which to my understanding is not even close. But million is even farther. Of course, every single one is too much. But this is a point of exaggeration they very eagerly use. Has anyone ever seen a truther underestimating? I seriously doubt it.
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Old 20th August 2007, 12:42 PM   #5
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Sounds like Fetzer. Didn't Fetzer claim to be the factor behind some aspect of the mineta testimony thing?

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Old 20th August 2007, 12:42 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by ref View Post
Has anyone ever seen a truther underestimating? I seriously doubt it.
"no steel building has ever collapsed due to fire"
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Old 20th August 2007, 12:48 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
"no steel building has ever collapsed due to fire"
Ok ok you win
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Old 20th August 2007, 01:01 PM   #8
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Whatever happened to the proposed radio debate between ryan and gravy?

Or was it all just a dream.....
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Old 20th August 2007, 01:21 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by uk_dave View Post
Whatever happened to the proposed radio debate between ryan and gravy?

Or was it all just a dream.....
Ryan made up a bunch of 'tests' that Gravy had to pass before he would consider debating him. Its a classic conspiracy nutter tactic, a few Apollo hoaxer beleivers have tried it.

Its avoidance covering their cowardice.
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Old 20th August 2007, 01:22 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by ref View Post
I have seen them use 600 000 a lot, which to my understanding is not even close. But million is even farther. Of course, every single one is too much. But this is a point of exaggeration they very eagerly use. Has anyone ever seen a truther underestimating? I seriously doubt it.
The 600,000 figure probably comes from a 2006 study done by John Hopkins that was published in the medical journal The Lancet. This study claimed that, upon doing surveys in Iraq, the number of people killed there was over 600,000. However, there were a number of problems with that particular study:
- The study used 'clusters', and there were relatively few clusters used in their study (compared to similar studies done by other groups)
- They did not ask for death certificates in all cases
- Their data appears far outside the estimates done by other groups.
- Many of the people who participated in the study were vocal anti-war critics. While that does not guarantee that they were biased, it does raise a few suspicions.
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Old 20th August 2007, 01:26 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The 600,000 figure probably comes from a 2006 study done by John Hopkins that was published in the medical journal The Lancet. This study claimed that, upon doing surveys in Iraq, the number of people killed there was over 600,000. However, there were a number of problems with that particular study:
- The study used 'clusters', and there were relatively few clusters used in their study (compared to similar studies done by other groups)
- They did not ask for death certificates in all cases
- Their data appears far outside the estimates done by other groups.
- Many of the people who participated in the study were vocal anti-war critics. While that does not guarantee that they were biased, it does raise a few suspicions.
Not exactly much surprise. The truthers often jump on initial or overexaggerated or just plain non-scientific numbers. Someday hopefully they will learn...
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Old 20th August 2007, 01:36 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The 600,000 figure probably comes from a 2006 study done by John Hopkins that was published in the medical journal The Lancet. This study claimed that, upon doing surveys in Iraq, the number of people killed there was over 600,000. However, there were a number of problems with that particular study:
- The study used 'clusters', and there were relatively few clusters used in their study (compared to similar studies done by other groups)
- They did not ask for death certificates in all cases
- Their data appears far outside the estimates done by other groups.
- Many of the people who participated in the study were vocal anti-war critics. While that does not guarantee that they were biased, it does raise a few suspicions.
Thanks for clearing that up.
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Old 20th August 2007, 01:37 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Ryan made up a bunch of 'tests' that Gravy had to pass before he would consider debating him. Its a classic conspiracy nutter tactic, a few Apollo hoaxer beleivers have tried it.

Its avoidance covering their cowardice.
Yeah I knew about the test. But did the radio station ever get back with a firm offer to host the debate? Or did it just all go silent when Gravy refused to jump through the hoops?
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Old 20th August 2007, 01:41 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by uk_dave View Post
Yeah I knew about the test. But did the radio station ever get back with a firm offer to host the debate? Or did it just all go silent when Gravy refused to jump through the hoops?
Last i heard Gravy had contacted or was contacting the host with his agreement. Ryan's hoops really have nothing to do with the debate as far as the host is concerned.
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Old 20th August 2007, 01:58 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
Last i heard Gravy had contacted or was contacting the host with his agreement. Ryan's hoops really have nothing to do with the debate as far as the host is concerned.
That is what I thought.
If Gravy agrees to debate but Ryan will not do so without conditions (the 'tests') then it will be Ryan who is refusing to debate, not Gravy.

However, wanna bet on how it would be spun on CT forums? They will have Ryan 'winning' a debate that never occured due to Ryan 'proving' that Gravy did not know what he was talking about despite there never having been a discussion.
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Old 20th August 2007, 02:15 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
Sounds like Fetzer. Didn't Fetzer claim to be the factor behind some aspect of the mineta testimony thing?

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Uncle Fetzer claimed on Alan Colmes' radio show that his appearance on Hannity & Colmes resulted in Mineta resigning from the administration:

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Fetzer: Yes. We have testimony from Norman Mineta to that effect, and did you know this, Alan, the night before, on Thursday night, I explained that on your show and the next morning he resigns.

Colmes: Well, are you suggesting that Norm Mineta resigned because of your appearance on Hannity and Colmes?

Fetzer: I’m suggesting Norman Mineta resigned because the administration didn’t want him in a public position where he’d have to respond to questions from reporters. By having him resign he becomes a private citizen and he’s no longer obligated to respond to public inquiries.
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Old 20th August 2007, 02:24 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The 600,000 figure probably comes from a 2006 study done by John Hopkins that was published in the medical journal The Lancet. This study claimed that, upon doing surveys in Iraq, the number of people killed there was over 600,000. However, there were a number of problems with that particular study:
- The study used 'clusters', and there were relatively few clusters used in their study (compared to similar studies done by other groups)
- They did not ask for death certificates in all cases
- Their data appears far outside the estimates done by other groups.
- Many of the people who participated in the study were vocal anti-war critics. While that does not guarantee that they were biased, it does raise a few suspicions.
The Iraq Body Count site estimates the deaths at between 70 and 76 thousand, approximately. Their response to the Lancet study is here.
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Old 20th August 2007, 02:27 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
That is what I thought.
If Gravy agrees to debate but Ryan will not do so without conditions (the 'tests') then it will be Ryan who is refusing to debate, not Gravy.

However, wanna bet on how it would be spun on CT forums? They will have Ryan 'winning' a debate that never occured due to Ryan 'proving' that Gravy did not know what he was talking about despite there never having been a discussion.
True but even among truthers there are some that are beginning to recognize that type of spin and are refusing to believe it.
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Old 20th August 2007, 04:22 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by ref View Post
Kevin Ryan seems to have brushed off his loss in court. He does his usual ranting at 9/11 blogger. This time he even credits himself for delaying the NIST report for 7 months.

http://www.911blogger.com/node/10744

Originally Posted by Kevin Ryan
When I challenged them on this, noting that steel softens at around 1000 °C, they started having closed door meetings and put their report off another seven months. Interestingly, the word “softened” does not appear anywhere in NIST’s final report.
He also states that around million people have been killed in the US wars after 9/11. I guess, when you have some figures wrong, you have them all wrong.

Err... Is the NIST's report on WTC7 out?

Answer: No.

What the hell is that goofball talking about?
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Old 20th August 2007, 05:37 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Err... Is the NIST's report on WTC7 out?

Answer: No.

What the hell is that goofball talking about?
He got an advance copy for peer review, obviously.
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Old 20th August 2007, 10:23 PM   #21
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Finding your inner Kevin Ryan.

---

You guys sound like a bunch of 5th graders.


Kevin Ryan is not the point.

The point is that someone sees inconsistencies and is groping for an answer.

The inconsistencies are glaring.


UL tests of floor assemblies showed deflections of just a few inches.

NIST nudges the decimal place over, to 42" !!!

Why?

Because NIST desperately needs floors to sag if the pre-engineered narrative that sagging floors pulled perimeter panel columns inward is to survive (NIST FAQ #2).

This desperation is also readily apparent in NIST's needing to invoke the loss of fire protection, because this was needed to get the floors to sag.

Note that NIST couldn't get the towers to collapse in their models without such this arbitrary and unsubstantiated assumption.

(It is truly pathetic if you really let it in. It is also truly pathetic how many at JREF take the NIST reports are gospel.)


Furthermore, remember that NIST found conclusively that inward bowing columns initiated the collapse. (NIST FAQ #2)

What caused the columns to bow inward?

Visco-elastic creep.

What caused visco-elastic creep? (Bazant's model inputs 800 C steel temperatures - steel, not air. And don't forget heat transport.)


So Kevin is justified in trying to reconcile 4" vs 42" sagging floors, visco-elastic column behavior, metal fires, metal flows, building fires, imbecilic shotgun tests to prove the displacement of fire protection material, and other oddities.


What Kevin, you - everyone - is failing to understand is that thermite placed in perimeter panel box columns and spandrel splice gaps was used, not to cut the steel (as Ryan and Jones believe) but to heat the steel to 600-1000C to induce the visco-elastic creep.

In fact, NIST FAQ #12 kindly tells you that it takes 0.13 lbs of thermite to heat WTC steel to 700 C to substantially weaken the steel.

Though NIST may not have used the word "soften", Kevin might want to note that NIST does imply using heat-weakening as a mode of controlled-demolition in NIST FAQ #12. You just need to use Paul's Magic Filter.


So before you bash on Kevin, take a good look in the mirror.

You guys are completely and utterly lost - far more so than Kevin.


What's worse, you actually think you know what you're talking about.


Max

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Old 20th August 2007, 11:22 PM   #22
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Max --

These cows are small, but those cows are far away.

The UL tests were of shortened floor assemblies. There are actual photographs of the severe deformation of the floor assemblies on 9/11.

Kevin gropes for the answers -- a blindfolded man stumbling along a cliffside. Do not follow him.
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Old 21st August 2007, 08:38 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The study used 'clusters', and there were relatively few clusters used in their study (compared to similar studies done by other groups)
A similar study done in Kosovo used about the same amount of clusters.
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
They did not ask for death certificates in all cases
The families produced death certificates in 90 percent of all cases.
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Their data appears far outside the estimates done by other groups.
Who rely on completely different methods. For example, I wouldn't consider IBC as accurate since they only count reported fatalities.

Who knows, maybe the death toll isn't that high. But I wouldn't dismiss this study too quickly. There simply isn't that much other data to rely on.
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Old 15th December 2007, 05:54 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by ref View Post
Kevin Ryan seems to have brushed off his loss in court. He does his usual ranting at 9/11 blogger. This time he even credits himself for delaying the NIST report for 7 months.

http://www.911blogger.com/node/10744



He also states that around million people have been killed in the US wars after 9/11. I guess, when you have some figures wrong, you have them all wrong.
Obviously Kevin Ryan knows nothing about the temperature at which steel begins to soften (which is 300 degrees C).
(source: http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/pro...el/default.htm )

Here's something else that Ryan won't have seen:
http://www.cablefireresearch.org/cabling/risk.asp

Quote:
Cabling in commercial buildings is frequently in close proximity to structural steel beams – which can lose structural integrity at fire temperatures as low as 800 degrees centigrade. Combustible cabling can burn at temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees centigrade — sufficient to cause the collapse of tall buildings under certain conditions.
Quote:
The average ten-story commercial building with 100 office workstations per floor can contain more than 1 million feet of combustible "exception" cabling in concealed spaces; equivalent to the fuel load of 1,500 gallons of gasoline.
Think how many plastic coated electrical cables, cat five cables, telephone cables, etc will have been present in the towers.

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Old 15th December 2007, 06:25 PM   #25
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Interesting find about the cables, Pete. I had raised this issue once before, and wasn't able to find that NIST accounted for cabling in their fuel load estimates. It's possible that they considered most of the cabling to be somewhat protected, and that it wouldn't have contributed greatly to peak heating rates. But it seems possible to me that many miles of cabling in the core and in the under-floor runs would have been exposed to fire by the aircraft impacts.
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Old 15th December 2007, 07:17 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Ryan made up a bunch of 'tests' that Gravy had to pass before he would consider debating him. Its a classic conspiracy nutter tactic, a few Apollo hoaxer beleivers have tried it.

Its avoidance covering their cowardice.

Can you blame him?
He knows Mark would waste him.

These 'tests' are the only excuse preventing that.
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Old 16th December 2007, 03:42 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Interesting find about the cables, Pete. I had raised this issue once before, and wasn't able to find that NIST accounted for cabling in their fuel load estimates. It's possible that they considered most of the cabling to be somewhat protected, and that it wouldn't have contributed greatly to peak heating rates. But it seems possible to me that many miles of cabling in the core and in the under-floor runs would have been exposed to fire by the aircraft impacts.
Found it in a random google search last night, it wasn't quite what i was looking for, but the link seemed interesting, and so I investigated further.

http://www.cablefireresearch.org/
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Old 16th December 2007, 03:49 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The 600,000 figure probably comes from a 2006 study done by John Hopkins that was published in the medical journal The Lancet. This study claimed that, upon doing surveys in Iraq, the number of people killed there was over 600,000. However, there were a number of problems with that particular study:
- The study used 'clusters', and there were relatively few clusters used in their study (compared to similar studies done by other groups)
- They did not ask for death certificates in all cases
- Their data appears far outside the estimates done by other groups.
- Many of the people who participated in the study were vocal anti-war critics. While that does not guarantee that they were biased, it does raise a few suspicions.
They followed a widely accepted protocol that has seen use of decades and has no past history of issues. If it has a problem then we have no meaningful estimates for deaths in say Darfur.
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Old 16th December 2007, 09:36 AM   #29
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Max thats an interesting comment about placing thermite in perimeter panel box columns and spandrel splice gaps. How many box columns and splice gaps do you suspect would need thermite in order to induce the visco-elastic behavior you speak of. And how would the thermite be ignited? Just curious.

Last edited by liverleef; 16th December 2007 at 09:37 AM.
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