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Tags dylan avery , john schroeder

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Old 27th August 2007, 01:50 PM   #1
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Arrow An Open Letter to John Schroeder, 9/11 firefighter

There were a couple of threads about this two weeks ago, which I didn't post to because I was too angry at Avery and his flunkies and I wanted to compose a proper response.

People sometimes ask me why, if the 9/11 deniers are so obviously wrong, I spend all this time on them.

This is why.

http://911stories.googlepages.com/anopenletter
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Old 27th August 2007, 01:55 PM   #2
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Wow, I missed those threads completely.

Looking very forward to reading in-depth after I get home from work. Thanks in advance for your honorable work Gravy.
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Old 27th August 2007, 01:58 PM   #3
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Excellent stuff, Gravy.

I didn't know about the Rodriguez conversion to Islam and the Malaysian incident. Thanks for that - and for everything.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:04 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
There were a couple of threads about this two weeks ago, which I didn't post to because I was too angry at Avery and his flunkies and I wanted to compose a proper response.

People sometimes ask me why, if the 9/11 deniers are so obviously wrong, I spend all this time on them.

This is why.

http://911stories.googlepages.com/anopenletter

I have briefly skimmed through it, I will go back to it later. Once again, from what I have read, it is very well put together. Your work will never go unnoticed or unappreciated.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:09 PM   #5
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The fireman was in the building. Were you?

This sounds like incredulity on your part. Where is the evidence that what he said happened, didn't happen.

Evidence Please.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:13 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Oxigen View Post
The fireman was in the building. Were you?

This sounds like incredulity on your part. Where is the evidence that what he said happened, didn't happen.

Evidence Please.
Is it possible that you did NOT click on the link in the OP by Gravy? Do that. Read. Repeat.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:13 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Oxigen View Post
The fireman was in the building. Were you?

This sounds like incredulity on your part. Where is the evidence that what he said happened, didn't happen.

Evidence Please.

I wasn't there, but I know a lot of people there. It's all about eyewitness reports. Maybe you should actually read the site rather than bashing Gravy. The evidence you ask for is in that very site. Do your own research. Maybe email a couple firefighters find out for yourself.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:15 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Oxigen View Post
The fireman was in the building. Were you?
Was he the only fireman in the building? Where's the supporting testimony?

That's one of the most disgusting things about twoofers. "Oh, so an ambulance driver/fireman/maintainence worker is lying?" Never mind that to support your stupid theories, EVERY ONE OF THE REST OF THEM HAS TO BE LYING.

Save your righteous indignation for those dumb enough to fall for it.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:16 PM   #9
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Gravy, I had trouble opening the "loose change creaters speak" pdf file.

My copy of acrobat says that the file is corrupted.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:17 PM   #10
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Read one or two paragraphs. Doesn't impress me.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:18 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Oxigen View Post
Read one or two paragraphs. Doesn't impress me.

Maybe you should read the WHOLE thing.


Is this how the whole TM works? Only read a paragraph or two and if you aren't impressed than its *****? If you can refute anything on this website than I will give you a cookie.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:19 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Oxigen View Post
Read one or two paragraphs. Doesn't impress me.
Of course not, it isn't on youtube.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:20 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Oxigen View Post
Read one or two paragraphs. Doesn't impress me.
That doesn't surprise me.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:20 PM   #14
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I think this has gone too far.

Look, I'm not saying that Mark doesn't do great research. Or that his goals are anything other than honorable.

But we have to think long term with this one.

If our goals are to open the eyes of those that might want to give Dylan Avery or Jim Fetzer money, then this is off base. By approaching this guy and telling him that we will help him make sense of his experiences, we come off as extremely condescending. Regardless of whether you are right Mark, to tell someone that was there (regardless of who's manipulating him) that you can help him make sense of that day, is too much.

Again, I'm not saying you're not right, but you are in danger of giving these guys ammunition. Last thing we want to do is make it look like everyone who's against these guys are just people who think they are smarter than everyone else.

I think this may hurt more than it helps.

Now, if I was a truther, because I disagree with Mark, I would call him Disinfo. So here we go: Mark's on Alex Jones payroll! He's working for the other side!!!!
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:22 PM   #15
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It's the first time I read a "dear John" letter...

Kidding aside, I've read a couple of pages and I hope M. Schroeder will be open to what you are saying.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:23 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Abbyas View Post
Now, if I was a truther, because I disagree with Mark, I would call him Disinfo.
What do you think they call him now?
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:23 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Oxigen View Post
Read one or two paragraphs. Doesn't impress me.

care to refute anything then?
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:24 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer View Post
Gravy, I had trouble opening the "loose change creaters speak" pdf file.

My copy of acrobat says that the file is corrupted.
Huh. Opens for me in Acrobat and other software, and in the browser.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:24 PM   #19
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No, just mean, that were I a conspiracy nut, I would assume that since I disagree with Mark, that he must be paid off. Bad joke.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:26 PM   #20
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Last week the History Channel Documentary and this week a thorough smackdown of the Shroeder interview. The Truthers may start getting the Monday Morning Blues if this keeps up!

Terrific job as always. But you're wrong about them never getting a single major fact about 9-11; they always get the date right! (Joke stolen from a total Republican shill).

I'll post on this once I've finished reading the whole thing and add it to the top post as well. Nobody from the 9-11 Denial Movement is going to debate you, ever again. As Buckley said, "Why does the bologna avoid the grinder?" (Quote stolen from Pomeroo).
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:26 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Oxigen View Post
Read one or two paragraphs. Doesn't impress me.
Then why are you wasting your valuable time here?

Get out there and INVESTIGATE man!
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:27 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Abbyas View Post
I think this has gone too far.

Look, I'm not saying that Mark doesn't do great research. Or that his goals are anything other than honorable.

But we have to think long term with this one.

If our goals are to open the eyes of those that might want to give Dylan Avery or Jim Fetzer money, then this is off base. By approaching this guy and telling him that we will help him make sense of his experiences, we come off as extremely condescending. Regardless of whether you are right Mark, to tell someone that was there (regardless of who's manipulating him) that you can help him make sense of that day, is too much.

Again, I'm not saying you're not right, but you are in danger of giving these guys ammunition. Last thing we want to do is make it look like everyone who's against these guys are just people who think they are smarter than everyone else.

I think this may hurt more than it helps.

Now, if I was a truther, because I disagree with Mark, I would call him Disinfo. So here we go: Mark's on Alex Jones payroll! He's working for the other side!!!!
Your comments are always welcome, but I'd appreciate them more if they came after you read my work.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:28 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Oxigen View Post
Read one or two paragraphs. Doesn't impress me.
Hi oxigen, You seem to be utterly unaware that your statement quoted above says nothing at all about Gravy's work, and a great deal about you -- none of it flattering.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:29 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Huh. Opens for me in Acrobat and other software, and in the browser.
Opens fine for me, and this computer often has trouble with pdf documents.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:29 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Oxigen View Post
Read one or two paragraphs. Doesn't impress me.
Which is it? ONE or TWO? Big difference between those numbers. Precision counts.

1. Determine whether you read ONE or TWO paragraphs.
2. Read a helluva lot more than that.
3. Be impressed.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:31 PM   #26
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Had a relative involved in travelling to GZ regarding charity work with police and firefighters in 2001. According to them they are very skeptical.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:33 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Oxigen View Post
Had a relative involved in travelling to GZ regarding charity work with police and firefighters in 2001. According to them they are very skeptical.
In 2001 we didn't have a lot of answers. At the time every skeptic had every reason to be skeptical.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:34 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Oxigen View Post
Had a relative involved in travelling to GZ regarding charity work with police and firefighters in 2001. According to them they are very skeptical.
So are we. Skepticism based on a solid foundation is generally regarded as a good thing.

Who was skeptical? The relative? The police and firefighters? Specifically what were "they" skeptical about?
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:34 PM   #29
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Mark, I've read the introduction and the parts where you address what he has said, that's more as your addressee will. That's my point.

I would assume that your goal here is to help him understand how he's being taken advantage of. In which case, you've got to show him more respect. Again, I'm not saying that you don't respect him, but try to take the position of someone "on the other side" reading it.

First, it's an open letter. Instead of writing directly to him. I think you should go that route first. While the paper is great in terms of facts and manipulated inaccuracies, as soon as you tell him that you'll help him make sense of that day, he will be turned off. As will anyone else reading it that doesn't understand.

Secondly, you've got to give him props immediately for his work that day. Right now, (not saying this is how you feel), it looks like you, a non-emergency worker, are telling someone who was there, what he saw. You have more respect and intelligence than how that comes across. For this is exactly why I got angry at truthers at GZ, they were telling firefighters that what they saw was not what they saw (and the lying bit, etc, etc).

My goal in writing this note is not to acheive "pwnage", just I'm afraid that sometimes we create more truthers than we dissuage.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:34 PM   #30
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Oxigen, you're welcome to address my work. I believe this is an important story. Please don't troll.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:34 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Oxigen View Post
Had a relative involved in travelling to GZ regarding charity work with police and firefighters in 2001. According to them they are very skeptical.
........


Can you name names? Or is this going to be one of those hearsay things?


Can you please give me the name of this charity and your title within this charity? This way I can verify if this may be true.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:46 PM   #32
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A simply wonderful piece of work, as usual, Gravy. I hope that it is received in the spirit in which it is intended.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:51 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Abbyas View Post
Mark, I've read the introduction and the parts where you address what he has said, that's more as your addressee will. That's my point.

I would assume that your goal here is to help him understand how he's being taken advantage of. In which case, you've got to show him more respect. Again, I'm not saying that you don't respect him, but try to take the position of someone "on the other side" reading it.
My main goal is to help him and others like him understand what happened that day, and that their confusion is shared by many. The part about Schroeder being used by selfish, ignorant creeps is important, but a distant second.

Quote:
First, it's an open letter. Instead of writing directly to him. I think you should go that route first.
I would have if I had been able to get in touch with him. I'll keep trying. He and Avery et. al. made a public case, so I don't have a big problem doing the same.
Quote:
While the paper is great in terms of facts and manipulated inaccuracies, as soon as you tell him that you'll help him make sense of that day, he will be turned off. As will anyone else reading it that doesn't understand.
I don't make that assumption.
Quote:
Secondly, you've got to give him props immediately for his work that day.
Good idea. I do thank him right off for serving, but not specifically for that day.
Quote:
Right now, (not saying this is how you feel), it looks like you, a non-emergency worker, are telling someone who was there, what he saw.
I am, and I use the accounts of the people who were with him to back that up.

Quote:
You have more respect and intelligence than how that comes across. For this is exactly why I got angry at truthers at GZ, they were telling firefighters that what they saw was not what they saw (and the lying bit, etc, etc).
The difference is that I do my research. I think we can all agree that the north tower did not fall before the south.

Quote:
My goal in writing this note is not to acheive "pwnage", just I'm afraid that sometimes we create more truthers than we dissuage.
Again, I don't make that assumption. Are most truthers unlikely to read what I wrote? Sure. That's a symptom of them being truthers, not a cause. I speak directly, both from the heart and with facts, and will continue to do so.

By the way, I've heard from quite a few truthers who don't agree with me about 9/11 but who think my Rodriguez paper is great. This paper is quite different, since Schroeder isn't self-aggrandizing. He's just very confused, which he tells us again and again.
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:52 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
A simply wonderful piece of work, as usual, Gravy. I hope that it is received in the spirit in which it is intended.
Agreed. While reading I can actually sense the trepidation/tightrope walking you went through to not sound as though you were lecturing or suggesting any dishonesty on his part.

It's as sensitive a topic for a letter I as I could ever imagine writing, and your sensitivity is what will hopefully (for his sake, not ours) lead him to the truth, rather than the "truth."

I want to hug you right now. Is that wrong?
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Old 27th August 2007, 02:59 PM   #35
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I agree with Abby about the how you may come off, Mark.

Its one thing to say here are the answers to your questions, by the way, Dylan and Co. are playing you for a fool.

Its a different thing to say you are going to help him make sense of things. It kind of sounds like you are trying to make up his mind for him.
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Old 27th August 2007, 03:04 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
I agree with Abby about the how you may come off, Mark.

Its one thing to say here are the answers to your questions, by the way, Dylan and Co. are playing you for a fool.

Its a different thing to say you are going to help him make sense of things. It kind of sounds like you are trying to make up his mind for him.
I appreciate your criticism, but I very much want him to believe that the south tower fell while he was in the north, because that's what happened, and it's essential to him understanding much of what he experienced after that event. That's not open for debate.
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Old 27th August 2007, 03:09 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Drudgewire View Post
Agreed. While reading I can actually sense the trepidation/tightrope walking you went through to not sound as though you were lecturing or suggesting any dishonesty on his part.

It's as sensitive a topic for a letter I as I could ever imagine writing, and your sensitivity is what will hopefully (for his sake, not ours) lead him to the truth, rather than the "truth."
There is definitely a lecture in there, but that's directed towards Avery and co, who have hit a new low, IMO.

Quote:
I want to hug you right now. Is that wrong?
We'll do the A-frame and see how it goes from there.
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Old 27th August 2007, 03:11 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
There is definitely a lecture in there, but that's directed towards Avery and co, who have hit a new low, IMO.
"Talking down to" was the term I was looking for rather than "lecturing."
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Old 27th August 2007, 03:12 PM   #39
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RIF or why "reading is fundamental"

Originally Posted by Oxigen View Post
Read one or two paragraphs. Doesn't impress me.
So you cannot even remember how many paragraphs you read. Could be one. But maybe two? And that is the extent of your research into the article and summary judgement? You sound just like Erring Cassity.
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Last edited by A W Smith; 27th August 2007 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 27th August 2007, 03:21 PM   #40
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the truth is not a happy time for some, and not to be found by Dylan
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