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Old 30th August 2007, 09:49 PM   #1
Charlie Monoxide
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Dead Brown Recluse spider?

I killed this spider this morning I found hanging out in the corner of my living room, near the floor. It was about 3/4" alive, but in the picture it is 1/2" curled up.

Any entomologists or bug smart people about?

Is it a recluse? I live in Reno, NV, just on the outer edges of recluse's know habitats.

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File Type: jpg Brown Recluse.jpg (28.4 KB, 45 views)
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Old 30th August 2007, 10:05 PM   #2
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Is there a fiddle shape on its abdomen?
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Old 30th August 2007, 10:06 PM   #3
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PM Bug Girl. She's the one I trust on all matters bug (and spider). It doesn't look like one to me, but unlike BG-a real scientist, I only live with someone who photographs them for fun and profit. If you do google images, you'll see the brown recluse has a really big abdomen, which seems to be missing from yours.
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Old 30th August 2007, 10:16 PM   #4
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Great... now I get to be creeped out all night.
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Old 30th August 2007, 10:28 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Miss Anthrope View Post
PM Bug Girl. She's the one I trust on all matters bug (and spider). It doesn't look like one to me, but unlike BG-a real scientist, I only live with someone who photographs them for fun and profit. If you do google images, you'll see the brown recluse has a really big abdomen, which seems to be missing from yours.
Thanks for the advice.

Message sent ....

I also checked out the "internets" before posting here. This is a great site: http://whatsthatbug.com/index.html

Charlie (sleeping tight tonight) Monoxide
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Old 31st August 2007, 12:48 AM   #6
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I don't think it is but it is really hard to tell without seeing it spread out a bit more to view the abdomen more clearly. The leg stripes are more pronounced on yours than the ones in the pictures, but they do have leg stripes in one of these pictures.






http://www.cirrusimage.com/spider_brown_recluse.htm

Quote:
It is usually between ¼ and ¾ inch (6-20mm) but may grow larger. It is brown and usually has markings on the dorsal side of its cephalothorax, with a black line coming from it that looks like a violin with the neck of the violin pointing to the rear of the spider, resulting in the nickname "fiddleback spider" or "violin spider". Coloring varies from light tan to brown and the violin marking may not be visible. Since the "violin pattern" is not diagnostic, and other spiders may have similar marking (i.e. cellar spiders (Pholcidae family) and pirate spiders (Mimetidae family)), for purposes of identification it is far more important to examine the eyes. Differing from most spiders, which have 8 eyes, recluse spiders have 6 eyes arranged in pairs (dyads) with one median pair and 2 lateral pairs. Only a few other spiders have 3 pairs of eyes arranged this way (e.g., scytodids), and recluses can be distinguished from these as recluse abdomens have no coloration pattern nor do their legs, which also lack spines.[1] Recluse spiders build irregular webs that frequently include a shelter consisting of disorderly threads. These spiders frequently build their webs in woodpiles and sheds, closets, garages, and other places that are dry and generally undisturbed. Unlike most web weavers, they leave these webs at night to hunt.
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Old 31st August 2007, 07:56 AM   #7
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i unfortunately encountered a really really big one on my house last week, it's abdomen was huge (1/2-3/4 in.) I took it off the eaves where it was and flipped it over, it was a recluse allright so it got squashed. I don't normally kill spiders but this was being reclusive right over the front door.
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Old 31st August 2007, 09:18 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by skeptigirl View Post
I don't think it is but it is really hard to tell without seeing it spread out a bit more to view the abdomen more clearly. The leg stripes are more pronounced on yours than the ones in the pictures, but they do have leg stripes in one of these pictures.

http://www.cirrusimage.com/Arachnid/...use_spider.jpg
http://www.pennhealth.com/ency/image...size/19570.jpg
http://www.badspiderbites.com/images...se-spiders.jpg
http://creatures.ifas.ufl.edu/urban/...e_spider01.jpg

http://www.cirrusimage.com/spider_brown_recluse.htm
It definitely looked like pic #2 and somewhat pic #4. I haven't seen any Recluse pictures with pronounced leg stripes, like mine. I do remember seeing a live display of Recluses at a Houston exhibit, and the color stuck with me.

I took a good look around last night, and I think (hope?) that it's just a "one-off". I'd prefer a Black Widow, if I had my druthers.

Charlie (Brown Recluse poser 0 - Charlie 1) Monoxide
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Old 31st August 2007, 09:26 AM   #9
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This thread officially makes me itch.
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Old 31st August 2007, 09:27 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
i unfortunately encountered a really really big one on my house last week, it's abdomen was huge (1/2-3/4 in.) I took it off the eaves where it was and flipped it over, it was a recluse allright so it got squashed. I don't normally kill spiders but this was being reclusive right over the front door.
When I saw a live exhibit of Brown Recluses, I was surprised to see that they weren't that big (1/4" - 3/4" body size). I always remember the news item of the woman in California, who got bit by one while vacuuming her home. She had to have her legs and arms amputated. She probably had an allergy to the venom to be hit so hard.

I did notice after I killed my potential Recluse, it finally rained here in Reno after an 85 day dry spell ....

Charlie (spider killing for rain) Monoxide
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Old 31st August 2007, 09:35 AM   #11
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We get these awesome spiders here, dark brown/black, I'd say 3 inches across. I was woken up one night when one walked across a carelessly-left plastic bag on the floor.

Not that that has anything to do with anything. Just felt like sharing. Just incase anyone knows of fairly large native spiders which live in the south of New Zealand.
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Old 31st August 2007, 09:35 AM   #12
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Note that recluses generally are -- ironically, perhaps -- *far* from alone.

If this is one (and the shadows on the original pic make it difficult to tell), then there may well be lots and lots in the attic or somewhere dark like that.

You may want to have it checked out.
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Old 31st August 2007, 10:25 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by NoZed Avenger View Post
Note that recluses generally are -- ironically, perhaps -- *far* from alone.

If this is one (and the shadows on the original pic make it difficult to tell), then there may well be lots and lots in the attic or somewhere dark like that.

You may want to have it checked out.
I'm renting a ground floor of an older (built in the 30's or 40's brick place) house in an area know as Old South West Reno. I don't have access to the basement and the top floor is a small 1 bedroom rental. I also have a fireplace and lots of built in bookcase (even a bizarre fold out seat for talking on the phone). Many many places for a Recluse hide and breed.

Perhaps I should seek out a less venomous spider that eats Recluses and let them lose. I hate the idea of fumigation or laying down chemicals periodically because of a single type of spider.

I use to be friendly with a jumping spider, living in my bathroom. Unfortunately he (or she), died after jumping onto a wet bar of soap after I had a shower. I really miss him ...

Charlie (dances with spiders) Monoxide
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Old 31st August 2007, 10:45 AM   #14
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So I read the title of the thread and decided to enter. Great choice.

I gotta remind myself that nothing that has the word spider in it can be good for me, unless it's Spider Man... and not so much anyway...

I'd like to thank the people who put the pics, those for sure will give me nightmares.


Btw, I don't live in the US but I hear about this type of spider a lot in other forums. I could look up info but I'd rather have people with close encounters to tell me a little bit about this "recluse" spider, if you don't mind.
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Old 31st August 2007, 11:46 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Oubliette View Post
Btw, I don't live in the US but I hear about this type of spider a lot in other forums. I could look up info but I'd rather have people with close encounters to tell me a little bit about this "recluse" spider, if you don't mind.
You only hear the worst of the worst. I suspect (like I mentioned earlier) there's probably an allergic reaction to the spider venom that causes more grief than the venom itself.

I find the best spider (and insect, reptile) stories seem to emanate from Aussie Land. It's amazing what evolves on a large continent when not disturbed by humans until recently ....

Charlie (crikey!, she's a beaut!) Monoxide
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Old 31st August 2007, 12:50 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Charlie Monoxide View Post
You only hear the worst of the worst. I suspect (like I mentioned earlier) there's probably an allergic reaction to the spider venom that causes more grief than the venom itself.

I find the best spider (and insect, reptile) stories seem to emanate from Aussie Land. It's amazing what evolves on a large continent when not disturbed by humans until recently ....

Charlie (crikey!, she's a beaut!) Monoxide
Yeah, Aussies definitely have the best stories.

Are you going to talk to your landlord about this? Someone mentioned that if it is a Recluse then it is probable that there's more than that one. I've heard some stories about those spiders being in the weirdest places around the house.

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Old 31st August 2007, 01:21 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by skeptigirl View Post
Those look like the spiders that come out in my urine.
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Old 31st August 2007, 01:26 PM   #18
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I was fine, until the series of pictures from bug girl. *Shudder*

A friend of ours has a dog that got bitten by a brown recluse out on the dry side of Maui. Fortunately, they noticed it very soon, and the dog suffered a large patch of hair loss, but no permanent harm. At our house, the only spider we get that gives me the willies are the cane spiders.
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Old 31st August 2007, 01:32 PM   #19
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First the spiders taking over the trees in Texas, and now this. **Shudder**

That's it, I'm getting me shotgun, dog, and girl, and heading for the hills. I think we have a spider insurrection on our hands. Heed my words, or die in the grip of their evil, poison dripping little fangs.



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Old 31st August 2007, 01:42 PM   #20
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Hey, it's better than finding HALF a brown recluse spider.
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Old 31st August 2007, 02:15 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
I was fine, until the series of pictures from bug girl. *Shudder*

A friend of ours has a dog that got bitten by a brown recluse out on the dry side of Maui. Fortunately, they noticed it very soon, and the dog suffered a large patch of hair loss, but no permanent harm. At our house, the only spider we get that gives me the willies are the cane spiders.
I'm not the Bug girl, I'm the germ nurse.
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Old 31st August 2007, 02:19 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
i unfortunately encountered a really really big one on my house last week, it's abdomen was huge (1/2-3/4 in.) I took it off the eaves where it was and flipped it over, it was a recluse allright so it got squashed. I don't normally kill spiders but this was being reclusive right over the front door.
But the fiddle is not on the abdomen. It is on the head and back.

Also the web link I found said there are a couple of harmless spiders with fiddles and the eyes were a better identifier. BRs have 6 and most spiders have 8 eyes. Not that I knew that before I read the link.

We are used to seeing this spider:

so it is natural to look for the fiddle in a similar location. But look at this one:



The fiddle is clearly seen on the head with the fiddle neck pointing backward.
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Old 31st August 2007, 02:23 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by skeptigirl View Post
I'm not the Bug girl, I'm the germ nurse.

Sorry about that.

I was to skeevy from looking at the pictures to notice the poster's name.
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Old 31st August 2007, 02:24 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Sorry about that.

I was to skeevy from looking at the pictures to notice the poster's name.
No worries.
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Old 31st August 2007, 02:30 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Charlie Monoxide View Post
I killed this spider this morning I found hanging out in the corner of my living room, near the floor.... I live in Reno, NV, just on the outer edges of recluse's know habitats.

Charlie (he's dead Jim) Monoxide
It does appear to have that fiddle. Is the abdomen gone? And can you see the eyes with a magnifying glass or something?

You don't appear to be in recluse territory. However, Recluses have been known to hitch hike on occasion.
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Old 31st August 2007, 04:21 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by skeptigirl View Post
We are used to seeing this spider:

http://www.spidy.goliathus.com/img/BlackWidowSpider.jpg

Ah, yes, our old friend the Black Widow.

I've found at least 2 of those in my garage. My response is to smash them using something with a very long handle. I'd rather not risk a venom which is, gram for gram, 15 times more potent than rattlesnake venom.
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Old 31st August 2007, 05:56 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by skeptigirl View Post
It does appear to have that fiddle. Is the abdomen gone? And can you see the eyes with a magnifying glass or something?

You don't appear to be in recluse territory. However, Recluses have been known to hitch hike on occasion.
The head is a bit smashed up and I really can't see the eye configuration (or fiddle) which would be definitive as to it being a recluse.

I am outside the recluse region but many humans (and animals) have been known to come to Reno to party and gamble and sometimes stay ...

Charlie (hoping to find other types of spiders) Monoxide
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Old 31st August 2007, 09:32 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Oubliette View Post
Btw, I don't live in the US but I hear about this type of spider a lot in other forums. I could look up info but I'd rather have people with close encounters to tell me a little bit about this "recluse" spider, if you don't mind.
OK, I got bit on the back of the shoulder by a spider that looked similar to a brown recluse. I had been sleeping on the pavement after a basketball game, awoke to the feeling of something crawling around under my shoulder, and found that I had crushed the spider. I wasn't aware of feeling any bite, but a few hours later a spot on the back of my shoulder felt a bit swollen and slightly itchy. Because of the location, I didn't notice until two weeks later that there was a small circular wound that was not healing. It was a hard ring with a very soft center. When I did notice, I squeezed the blood and fluid out of it several times, but it still would not heal, so a week or so later I sliced it up a bit with an exacto knife and squeezed again. After that it healed fairly quickly, leaving a very deep, hard, dime-sized scar, which was slightly annoying. It's ten years later and the scar has softened up and is no longer annoying.

I do understand the spider may not have been a recluse, though it basically looked like one and this did happen in Alabama, and the non-healing wound may have been caused by bacterial infection.
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Old 31st August 2007, 09:35 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
OK, I got bit on the back of the shoulder by a spider that looked similar to a brown recluse. I had been sleeping on the pavement after a basketball game, awoke to the feeling of something crawling around under my shoulder, and found that I had crushed the spider. I wasn't aware of feeling any bite, but a few hours later a spot on the back of my shoulder felt a bit swollen and slightly itchy. Because of the location, I didn't notice until two weeks later that there was a small circular wound that was not healing. It was a hard ring with a very soft center. When I did notice, I squeezed the blood and fluid out of it several times, but it still would not heal, so a week or so later I sliced it up a bit with an exacto knife and squeezed again. After that it healed fairly quickly, leaving a very deep, hard, dime-sized scar, which was slightly annoying. It's ten years later and the scar has softened up and is no longer annoying.

I do understand the spider may not have been a recluse, though it basically looked like one and this did happen in Alabama, and the non-healing wound may have been caused by bacterial infection.
Ouchie!
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Old 31st August 2007, 09:56 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
OK, I got bit on the back of the shoulder by a spider that looked similar to a brown recluse. I had been sleeping on the pavement after a basketball game, awoke to the feeling of something crawling around under my shoulder, and found that I had crushed the spider. I wasn't aware of feeling any bite, but a few hours later a spot on the back of my shoulder felt a bit swollen and slightly itchy. Because of the location, I didn't notice until two weeks later that there was a small circular wound that was not healing. It was a hard ring with a very soft center. When I did notice, I squeezed the blood and fluid out of it several times, but it still would not heal, so a week or so later I sliced it up a bit with an exacto knife and squeezed again. After that it healed fairly quickly, leaving a very deep, hard, dime-sized scar, which was slightly annoying. It's ten years later and the scar has softened up and is no longer annoying.

I do understand the spider may not have been a recluse, though it basically looked like one and this did happen in Alabama, and the non-healing wound may have been caused by bacterial infection.
I'd vote for bacterial infection and despite the fact you could have made it worse, you probably helped it heal by draining it. Though I don't recommend using a knife, hot wet packs a couple times a day is a better method.

Here's the smallest one I could find in Google images.



The only one I ever saw looked liked these:

http://www.shagbarkridge.com/info/08669b.jpg

http://www.brown-recluse-spiders.com...iles/bite3.jpg
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Old 1st September 2007, 02:07 AM   #31
leftysergeant
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Actually, I think you are safe. Look at the coarse bristles on the legs. Like rose thorns at that scale. Brown recluse has much finer bristles. What you have looks more like it could be related to a whip spider.

BTW, the bite is not the only way that a spider can harm you. Some spiders, most notably the tarantulas, have what are know as utricating bristles, fine hairs that speparte easily from the body, with barbs on either end and usually a coating of some hyper-allergenic protein coating.

The barbs on both ends part makes it kind of dificult to remove the bristles once they have entered the skin.

Your specimen doesn't have those, either, as far as I can tell.
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Old 1st September 2007, 06:39 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by skeptigirl View Post
I'd vote for bacterial infection and despite the fact you could have made it worse, you probably helped it heal by draining it. Though I don't recommend using a knife, hot wet packs a couple times a day is a better method.

Here's the smallest one I could find in Google images.

http://entomology.unl.edu/charts/recbite.jpg
The one on the foot looks just like it did, except that it was closer to perfectly round.

Quote:
Yeesh.
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Old 1st September 2007, 10:24 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
Actually, I think you are safe. Look at the coarse bristles on the legs. Like rose thorns at that scale. Brown recluse has much finer bristles. What you have looks more like it could be related to a whip spider.

BTW, the bite is not the only way that a spider can harm you. Some spiders, most notably the tarantulas, have what are know as utricating bristles, fine hairs that speparte easily from the body, with barbs on either end and usually a coating of some hyper-allergenic protein coating.

The barbs on both ends part makes it kind of dificult to remove the bristles once they have entered the skin.

Your specimen doesn't have those, either, as far as I can tell.
Thanks for th reply. I thought it was a recluse because of the bristles. You are correct that recluses have finer bristles.

It's amazing that millions of years of evolution has given us such fascinating creatures as spiders. I read somewhere all spiders have venom and some form of web spinning apparatus. We really should learn to show some love to spiders and not stomp them like I did ....

Charlie (spidercider) Monoxide
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Old 1st September 2007, 12:40 PM   #34
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Upon further research, it may not be a true spider at all. My first impression was that it might be a member of the solpugidae. THat would mean that it is non-venomous. The greatest danger is of infection, should you scare one badly enough that it bites you.

Some species get quite large, especially the Iragi camel spider, which is large enough to eat a small house gecko. Their bite is quite painful and does sometimes cause serious infections.
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Old 1st September 2007, 01:43 PM   #35
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I found a black widow recently on a brick wall, and took that sucker out with a brick, and also a big ol' egg sack looking thing (though it may have also been food, I didn't want to chance it, all venom must die). Actually while I'm normally the sort to just get a bug to walk on a piece of paper and toss it outside, I actually found this one outside. I just happen to kill things that might kill me. Yes yes, it's more scared of me than I am of it, I KNOW, and it'll only bite if it feels threatened, I get it! I know it isn't going to hunt me down, but before you go any further, I might accidently "threaten" it! I knew where it was THEN but who knows what the future might bring? If there's a chance I might nearly step on it because I didn't see it, which would be enough for it to defend itself, well that's something I want to defend against, with it's death. Besides bugs are like, what, basically just little robots as far as their reactions go?

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Old 1st September 2007, 02:01 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
I was fine, until the series of pictures from bug girl. *Shudder*
um. that was skeptigirl, not me, that posted those.
I can't tell, since there seems to be no abdomen on your spider. Unless you want to get a good shot of it's face, I won't be able to ID it.

Generally, though, they are an uncommon spider. (despite what people say, most bites attributed to them turn out to be from something else.)

But it wouldn't be a bad idea to shake your clothes out, just in case.

(Lefty sergeant, you are way out in left field on this one, sorry.)
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Old 1st September 2007, 04:55 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by bug_girl View Post

(Lefty sergeant, you are way out in left field on this one, sorry.)
I have never seen a spider with that kind of bristles on it's legs. Got any idea what family or genus it might be?
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Old 1st September 2007, 08:54 PM   #38
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Actually, many spiders have bristles like that. Lynx spiders are very well known for having spiny legs, for example.
http://bugguide.net/node/view/1965/bgimage
(the spider in this thread probably isn't an oxyopid; the link is just an example of a very spiny group of spiders.)

Unfortunately, the primary way to identify a spider is by its eye pattern, and then some other secondary characteristics. I don't know the eye pattern here, and I can't see the chelicerae.

I'm not going to guess a Genus. My policy is to never guess at a species unless I have a specimen to examine. I could probably give you a ball park for a Family in a day or two--I'm too tired to come up with anything right now.

Entelegynes, but--could be a lot of things. Ctenidae? Shape of the head looks right, but again, I need an eye pattern. It's really not easy, unless you work with spiders on a regular basis, to identify them from just a photo without an eye pattern.

Also: the myth of the brown recluse bite
http://spiders.ucr.edu/
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Old 1st September 2007, 10:43 PM   #39
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Thanks for the response bug girl. The central structure is the abdomen. The head can't be ascertained by my lousy picture.

I still have it. Do you want me to mail it to you?

Charlie (off to bed) Monoxide
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Old 2nd September 2007, 04:09 AM   #40
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Actually, if you can take a photo of it's "face" that will give me something to work with!
Or, draw a picture of how the eyes are arranged?
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