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Old 5th September 2007, 08:42 PM   #1
maccy
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Truthers: How would you run an investigation?

I suppose this is a variation on the "What should an investigation be carried out?" question; but, for the sake of an intellectual exercise I'm proposing that we forget about a lot of the practical obstacles to a new investigation.

Imagine that you are in charge of a new investigation. You can call any witness you like, ask for expert testimony from anybody you want, examine all the physical evidence and records that you like. All questioning would be under oath.

There are some limitations:

1. All witness have the same constitutional rights as they would in a courtroom (including those provided by the Fifth Amendment).

2. You have no special powers to tell if a witness is lying or not.

3. There is nothing currently kept secret that would instantly and explicitly prove an inside job (for example, the unreleased Pentagon video tapes; or some memo that tells the whole story and has been suppressed). For the purposes of this exercise, we have to assume that anything obvious has been kept completely secret and shared only between a small number of conspirators. As soon as orders are passed to a large number of people (NIST, NORAD, the FDNY, field officers of the CIA and FBI, etc) they would have to be constructed in such a way as to not make those people suspicious that they were participating in a terrorist attack against their own people. The same must apply to any information they are made privy to. We have to assume that the number of people who really knew what was happening was small enough to ensure that nobody spilled the beans and that they all had a very good reason for conspiring.

4. You are trying to build a case which will become the basis for a prosecution. Therefore, you can expect all your witnesses to be cross-examined and all your expert testimony to be challenged by other experts. The case that you build will have to convince a jury in the face of the best defence lawyers that money can buy. I don't want to get too far into imagining an actual trial here, but imagine that you would have to use this investigation to produce a report to a prosecutor that would convince them it was worth going to trial.

So, what witnesses do you call? What questions would you ask? What would ask your investigators and experts to look at?

After all that, what do you imagine your case for the prosecution would look like?
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Old 5th September 2007, 09:43 PM   #2
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This looks like a job for...

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Old 5th September 2007, 09:53 PM   #3
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Quote:
Truthers: How would you run an investigation?
Since I doubt you are going to get any serious answers, can I suggest, really badly.
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Old 6th September 2007, 09:14 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by 1337m4n View Post
This looks like a job for...
Or...

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Old 6th September 2007, 09:57 AM   #5
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Probably using the investigative techiniques you see on Scooby-Doo.
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Old 6th September 2007, 09:59 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Probably using the investigative techiniques you see on Scooby-Doo.
Additional limitation:

5. You can't try and pull the mask of any of your witnesses - that really is their face.
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Old 6th September 2007, 10:13 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by maccy View Post
Additional limitation:

5. You can't try and pull the mask of any of your witnesses - that really is their face.
And along similar lines:

6. If ratings start to slip you may not hire the young, annoying son of one of the chief investigors to help out.
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-lapman describing every twoofer on the internet
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Old 6th September 2007, 10:20 AM   #8
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Why would they want an investigation? They already know they're right so start the executions. As to who, anyone that disagrees.
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Old 6th September 2007, 10:20 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Drudgewire View Post
And along similar lines:

6. If ratings start to slip you may not hire the young, annoying son of one of the chief investigors to help out.
Wasn't it his nephew?

Unfortunately "Uncle Scooby" is branded on my memory.
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Old 6th September 2007, 10:22 AM   #10
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No no, you need a guy like THIS to lead this investigation!

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Old 6th September 2007, 10:22 AM   #11
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I think it would go something like this:

1. Make up your mind.

2. Select facts that support your pet hypothesis. Made-up facts are just as good as s.c. 'real' ones.

3. If you hear something that doesn't support your hypothesis, ignore it.

4. If it didn't go away, say one of the following: "Strawman.", "You haven't seen this web site!", "What about <insert an irrelevant question here>?", "Disinformation!", "La-la-LA-LAA!! I'm not hearing you.", "We don't need math or physics, when common sense tells us that <insert literally anything>." "Clunkety-clunk, clunkety-clunk, clunkety-clunk..."

5. Proclaim that you were right.

6. For Bhaal's sake, don't prosecute anyone for any wrongdoing. Where's the fun in that?
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Old 6th September 2007, 10:25 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by 1337m4n View Post
This looks like a job for...
Originally Posted by Drudgewire View Post
Or...
Originally Posted by maccy View Post
The case that you build will have to convince a jury in the face of the best defence lawyers that money can buy.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 6th September 2007, 10:41 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by maccy View Post
Wasn't it his nephew?

Unfortunately "Uncle Scooby" is branded on my memory.
Ugh, you're right and I wish I hadn't had to remember his voice to verify it.
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-lapman describing every twoofer on the internet
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Old 6th September 2007, 11:33 AM   #14
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I would cheerfully dismember Scrappy-Doo... whilst he is still alive... *cackles evilly*
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Old 6th September 2007, 01:23 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
I think it would go something like this:

1. Make up your mind.

2. Select facts that support your pet hypothesis. Made-up facts are just as good as s.c. 'real' ones.

3. If you hear something that doesn't support your hypothesis, ignore it.

4. If it didn't go away, say one of the following: "Strawman.", "You haven't seen this web site!", "What about <insert an irrelevant question here>?", "Disinformation!", "La-la-LA-LAA!! I'm not hearing you.", "We don't need math or physics, when common sense tells us that <insert literally anything>." "Clunkety-clunk, clunkety-clunk, clunkety-clunk..."

5. Proclaim that you were right.

6. For Bhaal's sake, don't prosecute anyone for any wrongdoing. Where's the fun in that?
In #4, you forgot the classic twoofer response: "But then how do you explain...[insert anything here]"
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Old 6th September 2007, 01:36 PM   #16
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Go Team Venture!
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Old 6th September 2007, 02:04 PM   #17
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Truthers would call on Steven Jones and Richard Gage to offer expert analysis and they'll call Willy Rod as a witness, plus they're read FDNY reports of "explosions" but won't call on the firefighters themselves.

Basically they want the rest of us to accept the "investigating" they've already done.

They'll never say so, but that's exactly the kind of "new investigation"
they want.
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Old 6th September 2007, 02:17 PM   #18
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I read "run an investigation" as "ruin an investigation".

Just sayin'.
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Old 6th September 2007, 06:03 PM   #19
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[derail] Gotta love the Harvey Birdman references [derail]
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Old 6th September 2007, 06:16 PM   #20
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Can you imagine what ASCE and other LEGITIMATE ORGANIZATIONS would say if a new 9/11 investigation called on RICHARD GAGE, JUDY WOOD, and STEVEN JONES's as the "Experts"...laughable.

TAM
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Old 6th September 2007, 06:22 PM   #21
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Even then, do you think that all the people that they called as expert witnesses would agree on a cohesive story? Therm*te, SPACE BEAMS!!!, bombs, LIHOP, no planes, I mean, honestly.... what would they say happened?
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Old 6th September 2007, 06:41 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by TheRedWorm View Post
Even then, do you think that all the people that they called as expert witnesses would agree on a cohesive story? Therm*te, SPACE BEAMS!!!, bombs, LIHOP, no planes, I mean, honestly.... what would they say happened?
well thats why they need the investigation, to find out if it was thermite or bombs or space beams or holograms or....
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Old 6th September 2007, 06:43 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe View Post
thermite or bombs or space beams or holograms or....
...unicorns. Why do unicorns keep getting a free pass? IT'S SO OBVIOUS WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT!
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-lapman describing every twoofer on the internet
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Old 6th September 2007, 09:29 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Drudgewire View Post
...unicorns. Why do unicorns keep getting a free pass? IT'S SO OBVIOUS WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT!
Teapots orbitting the sun.
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Old 6th September 2007, 09:31 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Drudgewire View Post
...unicorns. Why do unicorns keep getting a free pass? IT'S SO OBVIOUS WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT!
A cloaked Godzilla! I mean, just look how much that monster loved to knock down buildings in and around Tokyo!
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Old 6th September 2007, 09:34 PM   #26
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I see all the truthers who have been demanding a new investigation are rushing to this thread to declare how to do it.....
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Old 7th September 2007, 03:34 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
A cloaked Godzilla! I mean, just look how much that monster loved to knock down buildings in and around Tokyo!
Nah, it's actually ROUS's!! They lived in t3h wallz and bit the columns in two at the precise moment!

(See The Princess Bride if you don't get the acronym. )
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Old 7th September 2007, 04:56 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
No no, you need a guy like THIS to lead this investigation!

http://www.johnrozum.com/images/drquest.jpg
Or this...

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Old 7th September 2007, 04:57 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
A cloaked Godzilla! I mean, just look how much that monster loved to knock down buildings in and around Tokyo!
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Old 7th September 2007, 07:19 AM   #30
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If anybody feels like it, you have my blessing to reproduce the OP on a forum with more truthers than this one.

Just post a link to the thread, so we can see if anyone answers.
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Old 7th September 2007, 03:27 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
A cloaked Godzilla! I mean, just look how much that monster loved to knock down buildings in and around Tokyo!
No Japanese monster that small has a cloaking device!
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Old 8th September 2007, 03:32 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by maccy View Post
There are some limitations:
For Chris Bollyn, Eric Hufschmid, Alex Jones, and possibly Jason Bermas, those limitations would be unacceptable. These people have little, if any, understanding of what the US Constitution allows and does not allow. There is a "fringe within the fringe" that believes that there are US citizens who have abrogated their rights by their conspiracy with the "criminal network"--a vaguely Israeli-based group to which most American politicians, judges, business executives, and others in power owe their livelihoods.

Most of the legal framework they propose would look a lot more like that of the Third Reich or Stalinist Russia. Fewer limitations that way. NIST would likely be disbanded and its executive prosecuted. Same goes for the FDNY for its participation in the "demolition" of WTC7.

Guy Razer and Kevin Ryan would also appear as star witnesses against the "shills".
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Old 8th September 2007, 05:58 AM   #33
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Trials
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Old 8th September 2007, 02:22 PM   #34
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Truthers posting on other thread, but none wants to give this one a go.

I wonder why...
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Old 9th September 2007, 03:02 PM   #35
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One last bump in the vain hope that someone from the "Truth Movement" has missed this and is just bursting with ideas about how they can progress their case against (elements of) the US Government.

I've given up on Truther forums, but if anyone does want to post the OP on one, I'd love to see the responses.
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Old 9th September 2007, 07:30 PM   #36
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so where are all the truthers?
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Old 30th January 2008, 02:55 PM   #37
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Holy thread resurrection!


Inspired by this post:

Originally Posted by GregoryUrich View Post
I would wait to see the outcome of a "real investigation" before claiming that this is fact. If you have followed my "neutrality" you should know that I have always been in favor of a new investigation, one with teeth. I think this is just one of the indications that a new investigation is needed.
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Old 30th January 2008, 02:57 PM   #38
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Yup. This is the thread.

Now Gregory I'd like to hear how this investigation would occur, and who would perform it.

First question in my mind is since you don't think the first was a real investigation, are all the many legitimate experts who were consulted for it disqualified?
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Old 30th January 2008, 03:11 PM   #39
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Here is the perfect head investigator for the Truthers.....
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Old 30th January 2008, 08:58 PM   #40
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Well, we can say one thing about how *not* to run such an investigation, namely Karl's way:

Originally Posted by Federation of American Scientists
ANOTHER LOOK AT THE 9/11 COMMISSION

Author Max Holland takes an advance peek at a new, not-yet-published
book about the 9/11 Commission.

"In a revelation bound to cast a pall over the 9/11 Commission, [New
York Times reporter] Philip Shenon will report in a forthcoming book
that the panel's executive director, Philip Zelikow, engaged in
'surreptitious' communications with presidential adviser Karl Rove and
other Bush administration officials during the commission's 20-month
investigation into the 9/11 attacks," Mr. Holland writes.

See "Commission Confidential," January 30:

http://www.washingtondecoded.com/sit...sion-conf.html
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