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#1 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,425
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[Moderated]Another engineer criticizes NIST & FEMA
I e-mailed this to Prof. Astaneh this afternoon:
Dear Professor Astaneh, I was very pleased to read about your new findings on the causes of the collapse of WTC 1 & 2 as recently reported on the internet. I am not a civil engineer - I am a retired scientist - but I have researched the tragic events of September 11th, 2001, in some detail and I have come to the conclusion that the Twin Towers were doomed from the moment that they were struck by the aircraft. I further believe that it is unacceptable that the original 1960s calculations, claiming to show that the buildings could survive aircraft impacts, are not available to researchers and subject to intense scrutiny. Professor Astaneh, if you are now saying that the Twin Towers could not have survived such impacts, why would any qualified engineer ever claim that they could? I also believe that the NIST and FEMA Reports were mainly intended to protect the American construction industry and the designers of the WTC from any criticism and culpability for the catastrophic failures of WTC 1 & 2. Therefore I am not surprised that a proper scientific investigation, such as the one you have been undertaking for the past 5 years, would contradict the NIST and FEMA Reports and reveal the true cause(s) of the tragedy that unfolded in New York City on 9/11. It is most regrettable that no legal actions or lawsuits associated with 9/11 have been able to make any headway in the face of the government’s position that 19 Arab jihadists were solely responsible for all the death and destruction of 9/11. That an extreme act of terror occurred in New York City on 9/11 is not in doubt. But the fact that the target buildings should have totally succumbed as they did with the loss of almost 3000 lives, needs to be investigated. If the towers were not “up to code”, and a well-designed structure could have survived the aircraft strikes, the American public has a right to know and steps should be taken to ensure that skyscrapers are better designed in the future. In conclusion, Professor Astaneh, let me add that regardless of how the great 9/11 debate plays-out in the months ahead, I salute your tenacity and courage in speaking out at this time on this very important issue and I hope that your work leads to a reappraisal of the 9/11 tragedy. Sincerely..... |
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#2 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,203
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Quote:
Looking at the reports of what he said, I'd be interested to know why he thinks that thicker exterior beams and concrete about the stairwells would have prevented the building collapsing, the fires, which were the main cause of the collapse, still would have pulling in the exterior columns, though it may have taken longer for them to give out. Concrete about the stairwell might have helped protect thoise inside, but I doubt they would have held up the buildings. I also can't find where he critizes NIST or FEMA, but rather he is critizing the civil-engineering industry's and ASCE for how the buildings were designed.
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#3 |
Game Warden
Join Date: Jan 2007
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"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into." --Jonathan Swift Blog - Corrected By Reality. My debunking videos, and philosophy on YouTube Totovader's 9/11 Conspiracy Challenge Still unanswered! |
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#4 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,854
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Do you have a link to a whitepaper or publication?
All I know of is his annual lecture (announcement and abstract can be found here). I also add parenthetically that I am on the record as criticizing NIST. There isn't a shred of doubt remaining about its core conclusion, namely that impact + fire led to the collapses, but I consider recommendations for future building code still up for debate. See Arup, etc. |
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#5 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,203
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Yes I noticed that Apollo 20 didn't provide any information. This is where I found mine.
Reading through your linkie to (eta: the advert for) his speech now. |
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![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) ![]() |
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#6 |
Banned
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I have had a very interesting response from Prof. Astaneh... He most assuredly criticizes NIST ... for who it contracted some of the structural modeling work to for example.
Conflict of interest I would say! I guess moral corruption IS everywhere... |
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#7 |
The Clarity Is Devastating
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
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I'm willing to give Apollo20 the benefit of the doubt on this one. If the buildings were inadequately designed, and NIST did not point this out (whether or not the design shorcomings were directly relevant to the cause of collapse), then this would seem to at least imply criticism of NIST for the omission. There's some ambiguity here because "criticism of NIST" may mean criticism of the NCSTAR conclusions, or it may mean criticism of something else about NIST such as how they conducted the investigation, and the two are not interchangeable. Respectfully, Myriad |
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#8 |
Banned
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Did anyone see the 1968 movie ROSEMARY'S BABY?
It kind-of reminds me of how NIST & FEMA operated during the WTC investigations... And who is Saw-Teen See anyway? |
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#9 |
NWO Master Conspirator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
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NIST could not find any evidence such calculations even exist, what makes you think they do? Have you found eveidence of such calculations?
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#10 |
Philosopher
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#11 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
It seems to me to be faulty logic to blame people for things that could not be forseen, and I see no reason for NIST or FEMA to place blame on the engineers or designers for not factoring in someone flying a 767 into the building at top speed. |
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#12 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 405
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His study sounds quite similar to this one by Hoo Fat et all:
Impact of the Boeing 767 Aircraft into the World Trade Center. By: Karim, Mohammed R.; Fatt, Michelle S. Hoo. Journal of Engineering Mechanics, Oct2005, Vol. 131 Issue 10, p1066-1072. Who also find that increasing the thickness of the exterior columns can prevent the wings from penetrating the building. |
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#13 |
NWO Master Conspirator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
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I also have my doubts that, even if the buildings did not collapse, anyone above the impact floors could have survived. The firemen couldn't get up, and the trapped people couldn't get down. The death toll would have been roughly the same, less the firefighters killed in the collapse.
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#14 |
Banned
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The missing aircraft impact calculation is just one point I made to Prof. Astaneh. But if you are not interested in discussing the CORRUPTION angle of who worked on the NIST and FEMA Reports, well, fine... continue in your NISTIAN dream world...talking to each other .... I have better things to do than debate JREFers anyway .... I just thought some more open-minded folks out there might want to consider what Prof. Astaneh is saying...
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#15 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,203
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Well if you actually have solid evidence of corruption, go for it, if you're just planning to throw about mud and speculation and hope something sticks, then I don't see the point
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#16 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
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two questions
1) If the towers were built using a conventional bay or grid skeleton system instead of the tube and core design, Would they have withstood the initial impact? (I think not) 2) should skyscrapers built today be designed to withstand attacks from an entity and/or technology 30 years into the future? |
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#17 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Some might have if they'd found the right stairwells. Not all of the stairwells were blocked, but only a few people discovered that. Of course if some twerp hadn't decided after '93 that there was the possiblity of roof access by terrorists and so locked the fire door access to the roof and placed spikes all over it to prevent helicopters landing, they might have gotten some off that way too, assuming that the pilots were willing to risk it.
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![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) ![]() |
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#18 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
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From what I understand, one of the main reasons that they weren't, was that because of the size, it simply wasn't possible to build buildings using the standard beam and column bays that were in use at the time. The weight of the steel would have meant that the lower floors would have had to have been solid.
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![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) ![]() |
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#19 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Eighteen people descended from the upper floors of WTC 2, as the off-center impact nearly spared Stairway A. No one from the upper floors of WTC 1 survived, if I remember correctly. The heat of the fires would have made helicopter rescue impossible. The helicopters on-scene noticed immediate excessive EGT (exhaust-gas temperature sensor) readings in their turbines when they got close, even without hovering, as they would have had to do to rescue anyone. The decision to discourage rooftop rescue was correct, but it's unfortunate that not everyone understood that. Now I'm really gone. Let me know when it's out on pay-per-view. |
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#20 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#21 |
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Quote:
No? Then on what possible basis would corruption charges or civil lawsuits against the WTC design team, NIST, or FEMA proceed? ETA: Moreover, NIST explicitly makes clear that their study CANNOT be used in any litigation. So what possible motive could they have in covering anything up? |
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#22 |
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Has DRG become a total enigma or what? You certainly keep it interesting, sir.
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#23 |
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#24 |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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I'd be interested in Asteneh's results, but in the paper above from Hoo Fat, they increased the column thickness from 9.5mm to 20mm to stop the wings from penetrating, which is pretty significant and would add a great deal of weight.
Though their simulation stops as soon as the wings hit the building, and it would be interesting to find out how this would effect the fuel dispersion and fire in the event of an impact to a beefed up perimeter as well. |
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#25 |
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#26 |
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#27 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
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I think Apollo has just produced the so called "Hit and Run" post...lol
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#28 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 496
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it wasn't even a hit, it was more like him telling us he had a hit in another game and then running away when we asked about it.
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#29 |
Banned
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#30 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
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It is not so woo as one might suspect.
For one thing this has nothing to do with blaming neo-cons, no-planers, space weapons etc. The subject is also not whether or not the buildings were up-to-code. They were. However, the code they adhered to was written specifically for them(well, for the PANYNJ). Secondly, it has been brought up by others, on various occassions and in various venues that the core walls were simple drywall and that did nothing to protect the fire standpipes, sprinkler pipes, stairwells, that the spray on insulation used in many buildings is easily abraded but that a cementatious spray on is available as is a paint on that only expands when heated and adheres much better than the present insulation(which in many cases simply comes off when workers install new systems, such as new lighting) Stairwells were narrow. They only have to be 44 inches wide!! Getting thousands of people out while having FF's go up takes too long. Stairwells also were only protected by drywall. A concrete wall may have kept some stairs to the upper sections open. Some elevators can be mounted to the outside corners of buildings and given secure power. So there are two topics here. 1) Do codes for tall structures need to be rewritten, concrete stairwells, concrete protection of water supplies,cementatious insulation, secure elevators, wider stairwells? 2) Was there a deal made for PANYNJ that lessened the cost of construction and operation at the expense of safety? The problem with #1 is that it would shine a light on the fact that these things have been thought of for a long time and that the deaths of 3000 people are what would be bringing them to light. The engineering community could be seen as culpable in not pushing for these changes earlier. The idea being that it would make buildings more expensive(increase the cost of a $100 million structure by 1% and you need another $1 million) and that would(could) impact the construction contracts that engineering firms get. Push for greater safety=less work The problem with #2 is obvious. It would mean that someone's head would be on the line. Probably several, powerful, someones. |
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#31 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,584
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To add some context, these are the opinions of Astaneh-Asl:
December 2003:
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#32 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
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BTW the new WTC 7 has 56 inch wide (IIRC) stairwells that are protected by concrete, and redundant + separated fire suppression systems.
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#33 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
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No I think Apollo just likes to taunt the "JREFers" as he has labeled us.
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#34 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2006
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like 20,000 people escaped the towers. they did their job.
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#35 |
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#36 |
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#37 |
Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 196
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This was the subject of PBSs NOVA program two nights ago, NIST has already made some big recommendations in the areas of fire proofing and better wider hardened stair wells.
Very interesting program, you had to feel sorry for Leslie Robertson the lead structural engineer of the WTC. How safe is safe? How far do you go before it become a hindrance to progress. It's easy to be an armchair engineer after the fact. Building on Ground Zero http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/ |
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#38 |
Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 196
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What if...
The WTC towers has four elevator shafts at each corner, all the people above the fire floors may have gotten out. What if... A system for evacuation from the roof had been developed and but into use? And while we prepare for a similar attack, the terrorist will be planing a poison gas attack. How safe are the ventilation systems in these buildings? Do we need a system to detect dangerous gasses and a system to clear any from buildings? |
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#39 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
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A20 is an intelligent but eccentric man who suffers fools badly. This is compounded by what appears to be a belief of his, that the great and vast majority of all persons are fools. Further complicating matters is his occassional venture into his own foolishness, which of course he cannot recognize as such.
In the matter at hand in this thread however, I believe he is correct (not including his editorial comment on "JREFer's") |
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#40 |
Game Warden
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"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into." --Jonathan Swift Blog - Corrected By Reality. My debunking videos, and philosophy on YouTube Totovader's 9/11 Conspiracy Challenge Still unanswered! |
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