Gravy Papers concerning Rodriguez: Split from: Loose Change vs. William Rodriguez

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by William_Rodriguez

I was approach to be on the LC film and I said that since it was a Hollywood release and not a free video and they were talking abouot a budget, i did tell them that I will give them my story but to compensate my organization so I can contunie doing my outreach for the victims.

Why should people give money to an organization run by someone who has problems with honesty?


Screenshot taken today. http://www.william911.com/

While you're here, William, I had sent you a couple of emails asking if you could confirm the story John Schroeder tells, which Avery and Badillo say involves you helping him find an exit from the north tower. You didn't reply. Any comment?

[William_Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by Gravy

Why should people give money to an organization run by someone who has problems with honesty?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...93dee78513.jpg
Screenshot taken today. http://www.william911.com/

While you're here, William, I had sent you a couple of emails asking if you could confirm the story John Schroeder tells, which Avery and Badillo say involves you helping him find an exit from the north tower. You didn't reply. Any comment?

SO Gravy, you are implying that my organization is dishonest?
That because you do not like my experience tthen the whole organization and their efforts are not to be counted? correct?

[CHF]

Originally Posted by William_Rodriguez

That because you do not like my experience tthen the whole organization and their efforts are not to be counted? correct?

No we liked your experience, William.

But then you decided to change your "experience" for some reason. Suddenly jet fuel became a bomb.

It's stuff like that we do not like.

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by William_Rodriguez

SO Gravy, you are implying that my organization is dishonest?

No, I'm stating that you're dishonest, William. Here's a test: were you the last survivor of the north tower?

I don't even know what organization you're talking about. Which is it?

I have amply illustrated that you're dishonest, horribly-informed, and that you show terrible judgment about 9/11.

It's been almost five months since I wrote my paper and you haven't pointed out a single thing I got wrong. You won't even answer the questions in the thread that you're posting in.

[William_Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by Gravy

No, I'm stating that you're dishonest, William. Here's a test: were you the last survivor of the north tower?

I was the last person to exit the North Tower at the moment of the collapse. In the earlier interviews and coverage, I was called the Last Survivor inplying the exiting. It was reported by the media and by me, erroneously and then by many articles that I was the last person pulled from the rubble. I was not. I was pulled, but after me there were other survivors. I am a survivor last to exit the building at the moment of the collapse. I corrected after meeting some of those survivors myself, Specially on that same day of the Picture that you posted calling me dishonest.

Quote:

I don't even know what organization you're talking about. Which is it?

I have amply illustrated that you're dishonest, horribly-informed, and that you show terrible judgment about 9/11.

It's been almost five months since I wrote my paper and you haven't pointed out a single thing I got wrong. You won't even answer the questions in the thread that you're posting in.

For somebody that knows everything about me and how I experienced or should have experienced the events that day, ow all I did better than me, how all was happening inside just by reading an official book and obviosly using many of the same things I attacked in the past, is not wonder why I ignore you. Simple I was there, you were not.

Quote:

...horribly-informed, and that you show terrible judgment about 9/11

are you reading yourself?
I will grant you- maybe horribly informed, but dishonest? and you wonder why I ignore you Gravy? You have been quiet lately, so please come back with all your attacks. Also since you were not succesful in getting me on the "show", do not try to do the show here, is not going to happen.
Why did you lie about my statements?

[CHF]

Originally Posted by William_Rodriguez

Simple I was there, you were not.

are you reading yourself?
I will grant you- maybe horribly informed, but dishonest?

Pssst! Willy!

This is where you're supposed to show us all the things Gravy got wrong in his paper.

[Gravy]

Name one thing I've gotten wrong, William.

And answer these questions, please, which you continue to avoid:

Were you the last survivor of the north tower?

Do you still dispute the first responder accounts of huge fires in WTC 7?

Edit: And what is your organization? When I click on the Paypal "donate" button on your site, it says "William Rodriguez Mission." Does that money go to your personal account?

[DGM]

William:
It would go along way if you would simple answer the questions and not try to redirect. You seem to be dodging gravy which lurkers are only going to see as an admission of guilt.
I think Avery is wrong to cut you out, but I have no desire to get into a debate about motives.

Just my $.02

[Gravy]

Sigh.

[nlarosa]

Originally Posted by William_Rodriguez

SO Gravy, you are implying that my organization is dishonest?
That because you do not like my experience tthen the whole organization and their efforts are not to be counted? correct?

Just answer his question Willam why do you beat around the bush?

[Gravy]

The whole thing makes me so sad.

[Quad4_72]

The derailing of the thread makes a great excuse for willie to stop posting and run.

[CHF]

OK let's try a different approach.

William, close your eyes and pretend you're sitting in the witness box at a new investigation. Hundreds of people are watching, the TV cameras of the world are on you.

You tell your (new and improved) story and there's a buzz of amazement in the room.

Then you're cross examined by some really important guy in a suit and he asks "Mr. Rodriguez, why has your story changed?" "Were you the last survivor of the north tower? Yes or no."


How would you answer those questions?

Think of this as a training run for your big day.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by William_Rodriguez

I was the last person to exit the North Tower at the moment of the collapse. In the earlier interviews and coverage, I was called the Last Survivor inplying the exiting. It was reported by the media and by me, erroneously and then by many articles that I was the last person pulled from the rubble. I was not. I was pulled, but after me there were other survivors. I am a survivor last to exit the building at the moment of the collapse. I corrected after meeting some of those survivors myself, Specially on that same day of the Picture that you posted calling me dishonest.


For somebody that knows everything about me and how I experienced or should have experienced the events that day, ow all I did better than me, how all was happening inside just by reading an official book and obviosly using many of the same things I attacked in the past, is not wonder why I ignore you. Simple I was there, you were not.

are you reading yourself?
I will grant you- maybe horribly informed, but dishonest? and you wonder why I ignore you Gravy? You have been quiet lately, so please come back with all your attacks. Also since you were not succesful in getting me on the "show", do not try to do the show here, is not going to happen.
Why did you lie about my statements?

All that writing, and none of it disputes a single thing in Gravy's paper.

Time and again you've failed to explain any of this William, and you have the gall to ask people to trust you and your organization? You'll find snake oil is a poor seller here.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

The derailing of the thread makes a great excuse for willie to stop posting and run.

The con man always leaves when he'd been found out. He'll just go somewhere else and peddle his "experiences".

[Gravy]

Oh, I see he edited his post to add this passage:

Quote:

I was the last person to exit the North Tower at the moment of the collapse. In the earlier interviews and coverage, I was called the Last Survivor inplying the exiting. It was reported by the media and by me, erroneously and then by many articles that I was the last person pulled from the rubble. I was not. I was pulled, but after me there were other survivors. I am a survivor last to exit the building at the moment of the collapse. I corrected after meeting some of those survivors myself, Specially on that same day of the Picture that you posted calling me dishonest.

It's called a lie, William, and you've been doing it for years. You knew your friend Dave Lim and others survived being trapped in the north tower, but you chose to minimize their experience in order to glorify yours.

Why does it still say three times on the front page of your website that you were the last survivor?

Testimony of William Rodriguez
Last Survivor of the North Tower of the World Trade Center
Now on DVD

Your other website is last-man-out.com. Your 2007 European and Malaysian tour was titled William Rodriguez: Last Man Out


My paper came out in May. In this video Rodriguez laughs, "It helped me immensely. He became my publicist and he don't even know it."

In that video he says, "The truth is the truth. It should be told whatever it is."

As long as you refuse to learn, I'll keep publicizing your lies and ignorance, William. My fee is 10% of your gross.

June, 2007, London Muslim Centre:

Quote:

William Rodriguez, the last person out of the World Trade Centre as it collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001 will be joining us on Saturday!

June 26, Ipswich

Quote:

Yet this literally explosive information was omitted from the 9/11 Commission Report. Rodriguez’s testimony was itself held behind closed doors, the only other private hearing being for Bush and Cheney

Another lie. Or in addition to not doing any research, did you also not read my paper?

July 2:

Quote:

Talking about recent political machinations in the US in connection with Rosie O'Donnell and hit American TV talk show 'The View', he was able to also bring attention to the here and now of how the mainstream media in some areas is still attempting to silence 'conspiracy theorists' (or should that be 'interested and questiioning members of the public' ) and are failing miserably to succeed in doing so.

July 7: "I saved hundreds of people but I don't feel like I achieved what I set out to do on that day.

...He was happy to do it, he says, but became disillusioned when the government did not investigate the attacks and put the blame at the door of Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein.

...There were explosions in the building before the plane hit. This should have been investigated and it was not. We also heard something heavy moving on the 34th floor. Some people say there was a company working in there but that company always worked in the South Tower.

...I was offered millions of dollars from Hollywood and deal after deal from every publishing company but I stayed away from that. I wanted to maintain my integrity.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by Gravy

July 7: "I saved hundreds of people but I don't feel like I achieved what I set out to do on that day.

Wait...how did willie save hundreds of people?

[GT/CS]

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

Wait...how did willie save hundreds of people?

...and what did he set out to do?

[pomeroo]

Originally Posted by William_Rodriguez

I was the last person to exit the North Tower at the moment of the collapse. In the earlier interviews and coverage, I was called the Last Survivor inplying the exiting. It was reported by the media and by me, erroneously and then by many articles that I was the last person pulled from the rubble. I was not. I was pulled,

Quickly, now: does this mean you were blown up?

Originally Posted by William_Rodriguez

but after me there were other survivors. I am a survivor last to exit the building at the moment of the collapse. I corrected after meeting some of those survivors myself, Specially on that same day of the Picture that you posted calling me dishonest.


For somebody that knows everything about me and how I experienced or should have experienced the events that day, ow all I did better than me, how all was happening inside just by reading an official book and obviosly using many of the same things I attacked in the past, is not wonder why I ignore you. Simple I was there, you were not.

I don't recall Mark ever claiming that he was there. He shows in his paper that you were not aware of the collapse of the South Tower. He demonstrates the evolution of your story.

Originally Posted by William_Rodriguez

are you reading yourself?
I will grant you- maybe horribly informed, but dishonest? and you wonder why I ignore you Gravy? You have been quiet lately, so please come back with all your attacks.

Someone on 911blogger asked the reasonable question, the elephant in this parlor, "what does Mark Roberts get wrong?"

Significantly, you never get around to telling us.

Originally Posted by William_Rodriguez

Also since you were not succesful in getting me on the "show", do not try to do the show here, is not going to happen.
Why did you lie about my statements?

Of course you are not going to attempt to "correct" Mark. He's not the one who is twisting the facts.

Interest in the show has vanished. There was a time when people thought it important to resolve the contradictions in your story. You have resolved them.

[RedIbis]

I pointed out at least these two problems in Gravy's paper.

- He gives no source for his assertion that Rodriguez was about 100 ft from the tower when it collapsed.

- He is suggesting that the event which injures Arturo Griffin is the same as the event witnessed by Rodriguez in the elevator shaft. This is absurd to say the least since a very significant period of time passes between the two separate events.

I have also pointed out that whereas Rodriguez has reported witnessing the fireball, he never concluded it was jet fuel. As an example of Gravy's poor twisting of his words, there is this passage in Gravy's paper:

"There were jet fuel fireballs in the basement. Remember? You said this: 'When the explosion happened in the basement there was fire all over, and this guy tried to cover his face… '” (Video: William Rodriguez An American Hero. 2005, Snowshoe Films)

What Rodriguez calls an "explosion" Gravy concludes was "jet fuel fireballs".

Couldn't the explosion have been caused by something else?

I don't doubt for a second that Mr. Rodriguez could have spoken incorrectly at one time or another over the course of his nearly six years of public speaking. Who here claims that they speak perfectly 100% of the time?

The level of character assassination that is going on here is discouraging to say the least. I've yet to find an example of the kind of gross mendacity that Rodriguez is being accused of. As usual this smacks of fear and desperation from those who know deep in their heart that Mr. Rodriguez's primary claim of having heard explosions in the basement level below him before the N. Tower is hit, strikes at the heart of the official story.

You must destroy his credibility because you cannot face up to his initial claim. Nothing better exemplifies this than those attempts at describing an excruciatingly slow fireball. Good luck on that guys, it's your very last hope.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

It seems this is an inconvenient thread for Mr. Rodriguez.

William, you are aware that calling yourself the "Last Survivor of the North Tower" is quite deceptive, don't you?

[DGM]

RedIbus:
Who corroborates William's story? Remember this must be someone we all can trust.

[RedIbis]

Originally Posted by DGM

RedIbus:
Who corroborates William's story? Remember this must be someone we all can trust.

From initial injury to the fireball in the elevator shaft, the account of Arturo Griffin that Gravy himself includes in his paper, corroborates William's story.

Not only do I expect that you "trust" Gravy, there is an unquestioning loyalty to his "research" which is ironic for a skeptic's forum.

[pomeroo]

Originally Posted by RedIbis

I pointed out at least these two problems in Gravy's paper.

- He gives no source for his assertion that Rodriguez was about 100 ft from the tower when it collapsed.

- He is suggesting that the event which injures Arturo Griffin is the same as the event witnessed by Rodriguez in the elevator shaft. This is absurd to say the least since a very significant period of time passes between the two separate events.

I have also pointed out that whereas Rodriguez has reported witnessing the fireball, he never concluded it was jet fuel. As an example of Gravy's poor twisting of his words, there is this passage in Gravy's paper:

"There were jet fuel fireballs in the basement. Remember? You said this: 'When the explosion happened in the basement there was fire all over, and this guy tried to cover his face… '” (Video: William Rodriguez An American Hero. 2005, Snowshoe Films)

What Rodriguez calls an "explosion" Gravy concludes was "jet fuel fireballs".

Couldn't the explosion have been caused by something else?

I don't doubt for a second that Mr. Rodriguez could have spoken incorrectly at one time or another over the course of his nearly six years of public speaking. Who here claims that they speak perfectly 100% of the time?

The level of character assassination that is going on here is discouraging to say the least. I've yet to find an example of the kind of gross mendacity that Rodriguez is being accused of. As usual this smacks of fear and desperation from those who know deep in their heart that Mr. Rodriguez's primary claim of having heard explosions in the basement level below him before the N. Tower is hit, strikes at the heart of the official story.

You must destroy his credibility because you cannot face up to his initial claim. Nothing better exemplifies this than those attempts at describing an excruciatingly slow fireball. Good luck on that guys, it's your very last hope.

You are one confused fantasist, Red Ibis. No explosions occurred before the impact of the planes because the seismic data compiled by the Lamont-Doherty labs don't show any evidence for them. Your revision of Willie's story is creative, but it lacks the endorsement of--Willie!

Tell us why he lies so often and grotesquely misrepresents his actions on the day of the jihadist attacks. Tell us why he changed his story.

[DGM]

Originally Posted by RedIbis

From initial injury to the fireball in the elevator shaft, the account of Arturo Griffin that Gravy himself includes in his paper, corroborates William's story.

Not only do I expect that you "trust" Gravy, there is an unquestioning loyalty to his "research" which is ironic for a skeptic's forum.

Actually it's more of an extreme lack of trust for a movement that claims to want the truth but is continually caught in lies.

BTW What would William's chances of being alive today be if he was much closer than 100'?

[Good Lt]

Quote:

Tell us why he lies so often and grotesquely misrepresents his actions on the day of the jihadist attacks. Tell us why he changed his story.

Well, I'll take a stab. He thinks that by virtue of his heir of "absolute moral authority" that he will never be seriously questioned about the evolutions and inconsistencies of his various stories.

HE was "the last man out." You can't question "the last man out." You just have to accept everything he says as a gospel truth, even if it conflicts with other evidence, eyewitness accounts, events of the day, etc.

He was there. That's, in his mind, what makes his stories infallible. And the Troofers know it.

[RedIbis]

Originally Posted by DGM

BTW What would William's chances of being alive today be if he was much closer than 100'?

The point is, can Gravy back up his claim? He suggested Rodriguez told him that. Well, George Bush told me that William Faulkner, with his complex depictions of racial conflict in the Reconstruction South, is his favorite author?

Do you believe me?

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by pomeroo

Your revision of Willie's story is creative, but it lacks the endorsement of--Willie!

Indeed. RedIbis is a childish liar who made the same nonsense claims in another thread.

[mortimer]

Originally Posted by RedIbis

Mr. Rodriguez's primary claim of having heard explosions in the basement level below him before the N. Tower is hit, strikes at the heart of the official story.

It sure does strike at the heart of the official story, but unfortunately for William, the Twoofers, and yourself, it instead misses the hangnail on the left pinky toe of the official story by about 100', seeing as Mr. Rodriguez cannot possibly know when the plane strikes the tower.

[Disbelief]

Originally Posted by RedIbis

The point is, can Gravy back up his claim? He suggested Rodriguez told him that. Well, George Bush told me that William Faulkner, with his complex depictions of racial conflict in the Reconstruction South, is his favorite author?

Do you believe me?

Can you prove that you have actually spoken to George Bush? Gravy has proven he has spoken to William, who has confirmed this.

[RedIbis]

Originally Posted by Disbelief

Can you prove that you have actually spoken to George Bush? Gravy has proven he has spoken to William, who has confirmed this.

Good point. Allow me to revise, swap Bush for Cheney. I did actually meet him. Shook his clammy hand. He gave the commencement address at my college graduation. Perhaps someone can waste their time finding out where Cheney has given commencement speeches.

[beachnut]

Originally Posted by RedIbis

I pointed out at least these two problems in Gravy's paper.

- He gives no source for his assertion that Rodriguez was about 100 ft from the tower when it collapsed.

- He is suggesting that the event which injures Arturo Griffin is the same as the event witnessed by Rodriguez in the elevator shaft. This is absurd to say the least since a very significant period of time passes between the two separate events.

I have also pointed out that whereas Rodriguez has reported witnessing the fireball, he never concluded it was jet fuel. As an example of Gravy's poor twisting of his words, there is this passage in Gravy's paper:

"There were jet fuel fireballs in the basement. Remember? You said this: 'When the explosion happened in the basement there was fire all over, and this guy tried to cover his face… '” (Video: William Rodriguez An American Hero. 2005, Snowshoe Films)

What Rodriguez calls an "explosion" Gravy concludes was "jet fuel fireballs".

Couldn't the explosion have been caused by something else?

I don't doubt for a second that Mr. Rodriguez could have spoken incorrectly at one time or another over the course of his nearly six years of public speaking. Who here claims that they speak perfectly 100% of the time?

The level of character assassination that is going on here is discouraging to say the least. I've yet to find an example of the kind of gross mendacity that Rodriguez is being accused of. As usual this smacks of fear and desperation from those who know deep in their heart that Mr. Rodriguez's primary claim of having heard explosions in the basement level below him before the N. Tower is hit, strikes at the heart of the official story.

You must destroy his credibility because you cannot face up to his initial claim. Nothing better exemplifies this than those attempts at describing an excruciatingly slow fireball. Good luck on that guys, it's your very last hope.

If only you had one single fact! Too bad you come up fact less.

The explosions from devices containing RDX or dynamite would kill many people from conclusion, your explosive junk is false information made up by liars who are too challenged to understand reality. Are you able to understand reality or just make up stuff and talk?

[RedIbis]

Originally Posted by Gravy

Indeed. RedIbis is a childish liar who made the same nonsense claims in another thread.

Is this really necessary? The irony shouldn't be missed that calling someone a "childish liar" without being able to back it up, is in fact, childish.

I made very specific criticisms of your paper. Telling people to ignore me is a very poor and transparent defense.

I've had very civil and productive discussions with several people here. It's not impossible, it just has to be sincere.

[beachnut]

Originally Posted by RedIbis

Is this really necessary? The irony shouldn't be missed that calling someone a "childish liar" without being able to back it up, is in fact, childish.

I made very specific criticisms of your paper. Telling people to ignore me is a very poor and transparent defense.

I've had very civil and productive discussions with several people here. It's not impossible, it just has to be sincere.

You have no facts, how can you complain. He is being kind. You present hearsay bs from WR and expect what? Find some facts or the ability to think with logic and rational ideas.

[pomeroo]

Originally Posted by RedIbis

Is this really necessary? The irony shouldn't be missed that calling someone a "childish liar" without being able to back it up, is in fact, childish.

I made very specific criticisms of your paper. Telling people to ignore me is a very poor and transparent defense.

I've had very civil and productive discussions with several people here. It's not impossible, it just has to be sincere.

Let's attempt a substantive discussion:

The seismic data compiled by the Lamont-Doherty labs show no explosions prior to the plane impacts. Please explain.

Jet fuel pouring down the elevator shafts did not create a fireball. Please explain.

Willie Rodriguez has changed his story significantly and continues to exaggerate his heroics. Suggest a motive for him.

[RedIbis]

Originally Posted by pomeroo

Let's attempt a substantive discussion:

The seismic data compiled by the Lamont-Doherty labs show no explosions prior to the plane impacts. Please explain.

Jet fuel pouring down the elevator shafts did not create a fireball. Please explain.

Willie Rodriguez has changed his story significantly and continues to exaggerate his heroics. Suggest a motive for him.

This thread is about Gravy's paper. I made several specific criticisms. Perhaps we can discuss that. What you're asking me to do is speculate. I don't go in for that too much.

[pomeroo]

Originally Posted by RedIbis

This thread is about Gravy's paper. I made several specific criticisms. Perhaps we can discuss that. What you're asking me to do is speculate. I don't go in for that too much.

An embarrassing retort, even for you. When you fantasize about the fireball being caused by something other than the jet fuel, you're speculating. When you pretend that there were explosions prior to the plane crashes--explosions that were not shown by the seismic data--you're speculating.

Show us the errors you found in Mark's paper. So far, your "errors" have failed to impress.

[RedIbis]

Originally Posted by pomeroo

Show us the errors you found in mark's paper.

I did. I posted this earlier.

From Gravy's paper:
"There were jet fuel fireballs in the basement. Remember? You said this: 'When the explosion happened in the basement there was fire all over, and this guy tried to cover his face… '” (Video: William Rodriguez An American Hero. 2005, Snowshoe Films)

What Rodriguez calls an "explosion" Gravy concludes was "jet fuel fireballs".

[pomeroo]

Originally Posted by RedIbis

I did. I posted this earlier.

From Gravy's paper:
"There were jet fuel fireballs in the basement. Remember? You said this: 'When the explosion happened in the basement there was fire all over, and this guy tried to cover his face… '” (Video: William Rodriguez An American Hero. 2005, Snowshoe Films)

What Rodriguez calls an "explosion" Gravy concludes was "jet fuel fireballs".

Yes, we noticed that you label your speculation as Mark's error. The scene Rodriguez described is not suggestive of a bomb blast. It does strongly support the fireball thesis. So, you haven't actually shown us any errors made by Mark.

Your turn.

[beachnut]

Originally Posted by RedIbis

I did. I posted this earlier.

From Gravy's paper:
"There were jet fuel fireballs in the basement. Remember? You said this: 'When the explosion happened in the basement there was fire all over, and this guy tried to cover his face… '” (Video: William Rodriguez An American Hero. 2005, Snowshoe Films)

What Rodriguez calls an "explosion" Gravy concludes was "jet fuel fireballs".

Fire all over proves the jet fuel fire. You have proved Gravy to be correct. Good job.