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Old 24th October 2007, 02:58 PM   #1
DRBUZZ0
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Running a legal brothel where it's illegal...sorta

I'm not writing this as a joke. I'm really not. Because something had occurred to me. Brothels are cash cows. Prostitution is the sort of thing that just can't not drag in money. Sex sells and many are willing to pay for it. Those who have a lot to spend are often willing to spend it on sex. It's the sort of business that is universal in it's solvency, in good times and bad in recessions and booms. There's a reason why adult entertainment companies always rake it in.

But in the US, prostitution is illegal in all major cities. (personally I think this is stupid and I'm pretty libertarian in my views in general) In Nevada it is legal in some counties and the brothels there and their working girls (in a few cases guys) make a lot.

What if you could operate such a brothel in, say, New York City? A place where clients could come, without fearing being arrested and do the business in the open and safely. Someplace clean, with privacy and safety. Where those working were tested regularly for STD's and customers were required to use protection and where records were kept, though confidential, to assure better safety from possible unknown transmission.

A place which was well lit, that could take credit cards and checks and where there was no requirement for a hotel room or something. Instead private rooms and a lounge, bar and such for afterward. Overnight bedrooms of course, for those who might want to have overnight company or simply be acomidated afterward.

A good reputation, professional, with professional security guards and bouncers to assure that no conflicts could get nasty. This would be a huge difference from picking up someone on a streetcornor, avoiding sting operations, and being concerned about violence, STD's and all the other nasty sides of things. Having the only such place in a major city seems like it could not possibly fail to bring in the money.

But how could you do that openly in a place where prostitution is illegal?

In the 1920's alcohol was illegal in the US, but there was one way in places like New York to have a nice evening of drinks without violating the law. One only needed to take the short trip to international waters in what was called a "Booze Cruise."

So why not the same for prostitution? Deals not made until outside US jurisdiction, on a nice boat with private staterooms. If it grew to a large enough buisness oen could even have a large vessle offshore with smaller boats ferrying customers to and from the floating brothel. High rollers by private water taxi or even helicpoter.

Of course, this would also be an excellent venue for a cassino and some duty-free shopping as well. I see no reason why this would be illegal. Laws in international waters are a complicated patchwork of treaties and traditional commonlaws. Major crimes may get prosecuted in the home port of a vessel or by an international court. However, prostitution does not violate international law. It's legal in many nations.

Last edited by Terry; 24th October 2007 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 24th October 2007, 03:03 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0 View Post
But how could you do that openly in a place where prostitution is illegal?
"Escort Service".
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Old 24th October 2007, 03:06 PM   #3
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Can I run an legal brother?
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Old 24th October 2007, 03:13 PM   #4
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OH CRAP Will an admin Please change that????
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Old 24th October 2007, 04:01 PM   #5
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Can I rent an illegal blogger?


Excellent idea - if it functions fully as you suggest.
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Old 24th October 2007, 04:19 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0 View Post
One only needed to take the short trip to international waters in what was called a "Booze Cruise."

So why not the same for prostitution?
Or, why? Methinks the degreee of "needed" isn't as large as you might think.

If you seriously think this market suffers from a shortage of supply, open the YellowPages in any fair-sized city to "Escort", "Dating", "Entertainment", etc. I'll wager they're not all, nor even mostly, sting operations.

The mantle of legality you suggest cruising to international waters would gain comes at high capital, operating, and liabilty costs. Boats ain't cheap to aquire, maintain and run, particularly not for passenger service. You'd add another -- or several -- layer of regulatory concerns for the boat and cruise, over and above those for the "core" business.

I suspect potential market would shrink, too. Weather would gain a bigger impact on your business; steep seas shift many folks' priorities noticeably. Discretion, which I suspect is reasonably important to a large part of the market, becomes more difficult if clientele must arrive and depart en masse during port calls. You'll have to include other diversions to keep pending and finished customers amused between transport runs to the beach. I don't know about you, but when I can't arrive and depart independently I feel frustrated and insecure (one of many reasons I don't like air travel and prefer to drive up to 500 mi or so).

All this effort, cost, and risk to do it legally just might not be worth it when sub-legal brothels operate handily onshore. Even if the risks and operating costs are comparable after considering "facilitation" costs and prosecution risks for extralegal onshore operations, I'd expect the capital investment required for offshore operations would tip the balance.
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Old 24th October 2007, 04:55 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0 View Post
There's a reason why adult entertainment companies always rake it in.
Don't be so sure. I have a cousin on the production/direction side of the porn industry and the hours are grueling, the people dishonest, and the cash hard to hold on to. There is a lot of money flying around the industry, but also a lot of hands grabbing for it. Getting rich in that game is actually quite difficult.

[/quote]What if you could operate such a brothel in, say, New York City? A place where clients could come, without fearing being arrested and do the business in the open and safely. Someplace clean, with privacy and safety. Where those working were tested regularly for STD's and customers were required to use protection and where records were kept, though confidential, to assure better safety from possible unknown transmission.
<snip>
But how could you do that openly in a place where prostitution is illegal?
[/quote]

I've often wondered the same. Making movies seems to be more or less legal, why not use that as a front for prostitution? You make the movie, you seal it up and send it off with the client as "art".
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Old 24th October 2007, 07:41 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by DavidS View Post
Or, why? Methinks the degreee of "needed" isn't as large as you might think.

If you seriously think this market suffers from a shortage of supply, open the YellowPages in any fair-sized city to "Escort", "Dating", "Entertainment", etc. I'll wager they're not all, nor even mostly, sting operations.
Understood, but still doing it openly has the up-and-up no-STD's thing going. I mean when it's on the downlow youn dont know who you're dealing with.


Quote:
You'll have to include other diversions to keep pending and finished customers amused between transport runs to the beach. I don't know about you, but when I can't arrive and depart independently I feel frustrated and insecure (one of many reasons I don't like air travel and prefer to drive up to 500 mi or so).
Oh no no no. It's not about "having to provide diversions" it's an "opportunity" to offer gambling duty free drinking and maybe even a hash bar.
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Old 24th October 2007, 11:20 PM   #9
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Here are the names, addresses and telephone numbers for brothels. All 100% legal. All in Australia
In the
ACT

Sydney

Perth WA

Adelaide SA

These links are safe (just) for work. However the links within the links are not safe at work or with your spouse.
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Old 25th October 2007, 06:25 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0 View Post
Understood, but still doing it openly has the up-and-up no-STD's thing going.
<shrug> I'm not ready to believe the "no-STD's thing", but will submit that it offers promise for reducing that particular Bad Thing.
Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0 View Post
I mean when it's on the downlow youn dont know who you're dealing with.
If by "you" who doesn't know you mean the client: I suggest that's (a) a marketing consideration not intrinsically inaccessible to illegitimate operations, and (b) that it's not a sufficiently powerful marketing consideration to offset the cost and complexity of cruise operations for legitimacy's sake.
If by "you" you mean the operator: I expect that successful illegitimate brothel operators know quite well who they're dealing with on the enforcement side (more precisely, that those who don't won't be very successful for very long).
Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0 View Post
Oh no no no. It's not about "having to provide diversions" it's an "opportunity" to offer gambling duty free drinking and maybe even a hash bar.
The hash-bar thing suffers from all manner of controlled-substance issues (USCG routinely boards vessels outside territorial waters to search for such things, and what to do with the inventory during port calls), but that's another discussion and not central to your point: multiple attractions could piggyback on junkets/cruises between jurisdictions where their legality differs.

I'll go along with that point; as you noted, casino-cruises have already demonstrated the viability of such a business model (with real ships sailing out into the ocean as well as the thinly-formalized moored barges on the Mississippi River). An added "attraction" (e.g. happydeck) wouldn't have to fully fund the cruise operation if another attraction (e.g. casino) could bear that load. Of course, a rational operator would weigh the relative merits of adding a secondary attraction (e.g. happydeck) against using that space to expand the primary cash cow (e.g. casino), but that's an implementation detail.

I seriously doubt that a brothel-cruise, on its own, could compete with sub-legal onshore operations, though. If you've got the cornfield to spare, though, build it and they may come (pun apropos but unintended).
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Old 25th October 2007, 06:49 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by DavidS View Post
I seriously doubt that a brothel-cruise, on its own, could compete with sub-legal onshore operations, though. If you've got the cornfield to spare, though, build it and they may come (pun apropos but unintended).
Well, for one thing I have neither the funds nor a large ship lying around. I thought it was an interesting concept because I tend to think prostitution is the sort of thing that is really both impossible and counter-productive to try to outlaw and cuts to the root of how a society its role in controlling people's decisions and lives.

That having been said... I don't actually like the idea of the concept as such enough that I would want to be known as a floating pimp. I wouldn't really want to be involved in porno either. Not that I see it as something that is inherently wrong... I'd just prefer to make my fortune elsewhere.
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Old 25th October 2007, 07:14 PM   #12
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you could always become a prostitute instead of going through all the trouble of setting up a brothel.
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Old 25th October 2007, 08:03 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by nails3jesus0 View Post
you could always become a prostitute instead of going through all the trouble of setting up a brothel.
Are you..... propositioning me?
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Old 25th October 2007, 11:05 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0 View Post
Are you..... propositioning me?
No, she was suggesting it on my behalf.
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Old 26th October 2007, 03:16 AM   #15
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Here in the UK, prostitution is not illegal but the advertising of sevices is. If laws like that exist, in NY, your cruise would be sunk.
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Old 26th October 2007, 04:46 AM   #16
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Where I live, not only is prostitution legal, also there are advertisements for it in the paper. The words fetish and fantasy are used in some ads. Noticed one ad in the job vacancy notices as well.
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Old 26th October 2007, 01:24 PM   #17
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Wouldn't a topless carwash be easier? Client never get out of the cars, girls stay isolated from weird men. They put on a show and wash your car. You can sell web cam time. Tape it and sell the videos.
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Old 9th November 2007, 01:09 PM   #18
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Around here the Asian Massage Parlors are brothels.

Definitely against the law, but they operate pretty openly.
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Old 27th November 2007, 02:29 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by imjohn View Post
Around here the Asian Massage Parlors are brothels.

Definitely against the law, but they operate pretty openly.
Ditto in SC...may get raided once in a couple years or so, they just lie low for awhile and go back to business as usual, maybe aren't allowed to advertise as offering massages anymore. I've never seen an 'out of business' sign on one.
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Old 28th November 2007, 10:46 PM   #20
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My neighborhood had until recently two "Oriental Massage Parlors". They'd been there for years, and I'm not aware of the closing of one being related to legal troubles. Despite having modest neon signs, they're otherwise pretty nondescript and blend in with surrounding businesses.

Porn movies are traditionally a pretty strong industry locally. I've sometimes wondered if one could operate a brothel as a sort of amateur "movie studio", with lots of rehearsal space, and for a modest extra fee, a DVD of one's performance. The bulk of the money being made for rental of the rehearsal space.
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Old 29th November 2007, 08:47 PM   #21
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Despite the care taken in the Porn industry to protect against STDs, there have been some fairly recent cases that shook the industry. -- Porn workers in the US are regularly tested, and generally date amongst themselves. As to the industry in general, Brian Flemming (of Bat Boy, and The God who wasn't there fame) did a story of one young actress essentially ordered to do very dangerous sex acts from which she contacted AIDS.


So given the Porn industry as an example, would you trust your life to the prostitute and her sexual history?
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Old 10th December 2007, 09:30 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Starthinker View Post
Wouldn't a topless carwash be easier?
Only if it came with a happy ending!


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Old 11th December 2007, 12:37 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by ShowerComic View Post
Despite the care taken in the Porn industry to protect against STDs, there have been some fairly recent cases that shook the industry. -- Porn workers in the US are regularly tested, and generally date amongst themselves. As to the industry in general, Brian Flemming (of Bat Boy, and The God who wasn't there fame) did a story of one young actress essentially ordered to do very dangerous sex acts from which she contacted AIDS.


So given the Porn industry as an example, would you trust your life to the prostitute and her sexual history?

Well, I'd sure as hell want my money back, I can tell you that much!
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Old 14th December 2007, 11:02 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Here are the names, addresses and telephone numbers for brothels. All 100% legal. All in Australia
In the
ACT

Sydney

Perth WA

Adelaide SA

These links are safe (just) for work. However the links within the links are not safe at work or with your spouse.
Err... if you want to go by the legality of prostitution in Australia based on those links then you are 75% correct.

In SA prostitution is legally illegal, but the police stance is one of de facto legality, this also sort of applies to the government as well. Attempts here to legalise the industry have met with vehement opposition, mainly because Adelaide is full of really conservative people who want to keep Adelaide as a "big country town" instead of a city.

Hell there was an uproar when it was revealed that the department in charge of the disabled was giving out brothels that would cater for the disabled.
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Old 16th December 2007, 08:43 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0 View Post
But how could you do that openly in a place where prostitution is illegal?

In the 1920's alcohol was illegal in the US, but there was one way in places like New York to have a nice evening of drinks without violating the law. One only needed to take the short trip to international waters in what was called a "Booze Cruise."

So why not the same for prostitution? Deals not made until outside US jurisdiction, on a nice boat with private staterooms. If it grew to a large enough buisness oen could even have a large vessle offshore with smaller boats ferrying customers to and from the floating brothel. High rollers by private water taxi or even helicpoter.

Of course, this would also be an excellent venue for a cassino and some duty-free shopping as well. I see no reason why this would be illegal. Laws in international waters are a complicated patchwork of treaties and traditional commonlaws. Major crimes may get prosecuted in the home port of a vessel or by an international court. However, prostitution does not violate international law. It's legal in many nations.
As my accountant told me years ago:

1) The IRS isn't stupid
2) No matter what scheme you come up with to avoid taxes, someone else has already thought of it, and it is illegal

Now I realize this isn't a tax situation, but I think the lesson is the same:

1) The police/FBI/INS/whatever aren't stupid
2) No matter what scheme you come up with to circumvent prostitution laws, someone else has already thought of it, and it is illegal
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Old 17th December 2007, 09:33 AM   #26
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This kind of reminds me of the plan I had once to create a company called "Mile High Adventures." I'd sell airplane sight seeing tours, it's just that we'd have a matress in the back of the plane, and a curtain to separate the pilot from the passengers. Kind of "don't ask, don't tell" approach.

I'd worry that the cost might be prohibitive, but I've never asked any pilots about the cost of renting a plane for an hour.
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Old 17th December 2007, 11:16 AM   #27
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Brothels are illegal, but being an "out call escort" is not... so long as you know the work around.
One could easily be a "out-call escort", so long as you advertise that you are providing companionship for a night out. There is no mention of sex. However, if these two consenting adult happen to have sex, then that's great, they've hit it off. And if the person who used the escort decided to leave an extra tip, that's the "renter's" choice.
This is how they avoid prostitution charges. No mention of money is made after they meet face to face, and it's understood that if the escort choose not to have sex, then that's his/her perogative.

Personally, I'd love to run a legal brothel, and I'm in total agreement with the OP. There are three things people will always buy no matter what financial situtation they are in: Food, Sex, and way to escape.

However, instead of a brothel, one can legally open a swing club anywhere in the country. This would pose a different set of problems, but it's all on the up and up. And done very well, it can extremely profitable. I do adult shows at these places and they are always full!!

As to using filming porno as a front to prostitution, I've been making porno for about six years now (behind the camera, not in front) and I know that there are a whole bunch of religious groups who are trying to prove that all sex movies ARE prosititution, period. It's a stupid arguement by them but every few years, they try to prove it. So doing it that way is not advisable by me...
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Old 17th December 2007, 11:20 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I'd worry that the cost might be prohibitive, but I've never asked any pilots about the cost of renting a plane for an hour.
Depends on the plane. In any case, if you could bundle it with travel by plane as is that might work. I mean, I generally hate flying because of all the hassle of the baggage checks, the security, the layovers the fact that there are commonly delays...

But that might make me change my mind.
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Old 17th December 2007, 12:19 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by JFrankA View Post
Brothels are illegal, but being an "out call escort" is not... so long as you know the work around.
One could easily be a "out-call escort", so long as you advertise that you are providing companionship for a night out. There is no mention of sex. However, if these two consenting adult happen to have sex, then that's great, they've hit it off. And if the person who used the escort decided to leave an extra tip, that's the "renter's" choice.
This is how they avoid prostitution charges. No mention of money is made after they meet face to face, and it's understood that if the escort choose not to have sex, then that's his/her perogative.
me...
Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
1) The police/FBI/INS/whatever aren't stupid
2) No matter what scheme you come up with to circumvent prostitution laws, someone else has already thought of it, and it is illegal
Hmmm
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Old 17th December 2007, 01:02 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Starthinker View Post
Hmmm
I didn't say that this will fool FBI/INS/whatever agents.

What I said was that this is a work around, i.e. lawyer use this as a defense.

Prositution is "Prostitution is the act of engaging in a sex act for money. It is also illegal for a person to be solicitating sex, or ask another to engage in a sex act for money. Therefore, it is illegal for a person to offer to have sex with another for money and it is illegal for a person to accept the offer of another to have sex for money." SOURCE: http://www.gottrouble.com/legal/crim...stitution.html

A lot of out-call escort lawyer use this defense: there was no discussion for sex for money, the money was only for the company (which is not a crime), and that the sex was something that "just happened" and in no way was money for sex discussed.
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Old 17th December 2007, 01:14 PM   #31
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Escort services already provide much of what you suggest. They come to your home or room and money and services are exchanged.
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Old 17th December 2007, 03:52 PM   #32
The Central Scrutinizer
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Originally Posted by JFrankA View Post
Brothels are illegal, but being an "out call escort" is not... so long as you know the work around.
One could easily be a "out-call escort", so long as you advertise that you are providing companionship for a night out. There is no mention of sex. However, if these two consenting adult happen to have sex, then that's great, they've hit it off. And if the person who used the escort decided to leave an extra tip, that's the "renter's" choice.
This is how they avoid prostitution charges. No mention of money is made after they meet face to face, and it's understood that if the escort choose not to have sex, then that's his/her perogative.
There are people sitting in prison who agree with your analysis. Too bad the prosecutor didn't.
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Old 17th December 2007, 11:21 PM   #33
Agamemnon2
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Originally Posted by imjohn View Post
Around here the Asian Massage Parlors are brothels.

Definitely against the law, but they operate pretty openly.
Same here in Finland. A newspaper did an undercover survey of a few dozen places, and their intrepid reporter was offered sex for cash in all of them with no prompting on his part. Apparently the massages were pretty bad, too.
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Old 18th December 2007, 04:57 AM   #34
Octavo
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
There are people sitting in prison who agree with your analysis. Too bad the prosecutor didn't.
There are a few massage parlours in Cape Town that work on the same principal i.e. You arrive and pay for a massage with a woman of your choice in a private room upstairs. The woman gives you a massage and the two of you may or may not end up having sex together, however that is not the service that you paid for. Nor is it an advertised part of the service (even though there are obvious red neon lights outside, indicating the sorts of activities available inside).

Although sections of society have called on police to raid these parlours, the cops have responded that there is nothing they can do. People are having sex, but they're not being paid for it. They're being paid for the 5 minute massage before the sex and the massouse is in no way obligated to have sex with the client.
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Old 18th December 2007, 05:01 AM   #35
dann
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Originally Posted by DRBUZZ0 View Post
A place which was well lit,
Yes, this is exactly what all johns are looking for! Lots of security cameras, too! A place you'd feel confident about having your brother frequent and your little sister work!
Should prostitution be legal? thread.
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Old 18th December 2007, 05:03 AM   #36
dann
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
There are a few massage parlours in Cape Town that work on the same principal i.e. You arrive and pay for a massage with a woman of your choice in a private room upstairs.
But only until the school board finds out ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th December 2007, 10:12 AM   #37
JFrankA
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
There are people sitting in prison who agree with your analysis. Too bad the prosecutor didn't.

....didn't say it always worked either.

All I mean is that this is how out-call escorts (not streetwalkers nor in-call escort), try to get around the law. Some do get around it, too. Not all, but look up out-call escorts and see how many there are. They all say that what they sell is not sex, but a night of companionship. This companionship includes going on a 'date': dinner, movie, dancing, whatever. This makes it a date.

Now the arguement is this: "The payment is for non-sexual companionship. If sex occured, it wasn't paid for or discussed. It was something that just happened between two consenting adults. All moneys negotiated and exchanged had nothing to do with sex."

Does it always work in court? No, but works enough to let a lot of high-priced escorts get away with it for years.

Personally, I think the government is missing out on a large cash cow. Prosititution (and drugs, for that matter), should be legal. The government is missing out on a LOT of tax money!!!
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Old 19th December 2007, 12:43 AM   #38
Octavo
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
But only until the school board finds out ...
Can't manage to read your way through a whole post can you? There is nothing illegal about this practise. Loads of different groups have attempted to get them shut down. The official position of the police service is that they CANNOT do anything, because the courts CANNOT bring a case against them.

Next time, try engaging your brain.
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Old 19th December 2007, 09:29 AM   #39
dann
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Try engaging your own brain before you start flaming and look up the word principal in a dictionary. Then you just might get the joke!
Did I say anything about illegality?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 19th December 2007, 11:05 PM   #40
jmontecillo01
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There is no way to completely stop prostitution. I would rather see it legalized so that in could be monitored by the goverment, specially the health department.
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