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Old 29th October 2007, 03:13 PM   #1
pomeroo
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Retired Firefighter Tries Debating the Loons

A fabulous discussion involving Arthur Scheuerman, who has written a book on the collapse of the towers, and a breathtaking gaggle of morons:

http://suzieqq.wordpress.com/2007/08...ur-scheuerman/
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Old 29th October 2007, 03:26 PM   #2
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I'd always believed morons traveled in flocks. I now agree that "gaggle" is a more appropriate term.

And thanks, thats a good read. Scheuerman stays on point through an increasingly bizarre exchange.
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Old 29th October 2007, 04:14 PM   #3
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Excellent! I particularly liked this part, which is something I have speculated about in the past:

Quote:
I have an engineering question that may explain this. Since the Tower’s outer wall columns pealed out like a banana, they may have been able to break the connections to the floors ahead of the floors being impacted? In other words, would the weight of the wall columns pealing outward from the vertical along with the added horizontal forces of impacting floors projecting debris outwards onto these columns; would these columns while leaning out be able to break the wall-to-floor connections ahead of the level of impacting floors?
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Old 29th October 2007, 04:18 PM   #4
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Racist, insensitive, and somewhat evil. You created a great world Dylan.

Originally Posted by some idiot blogger
Also Bldg 7 is the straw that broke the proverbial camels back. Some Muslim with a box cutter must have launched himself toward that building and demolished it with his deadly passport!
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Old 29th October 2007, 04:41 PM   #5
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I didn't realize that he'd written a book. His WTC 7 paper is well done. It'll be interesting to see how it compares to NIST's final report.
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Old 29th October 2007, 04:46 PM   #6
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I think he might be wrong about one bit, and that is which walls remained standing on WTC 7. From the images of the debris, the Northern wall had fallen over the top of the rest, which would indicate that it fell last. I suspect that the damaged south wall went down with the second penthouse leaving the shell of the other three to follow it down, and that its collapse was what precipitated the rest of the facade to collapse as it did.

It will be interesting to see what NIST makes of it all.
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Old 29th October 2007, 08:13 PM   #7
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He also showed up here

http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=14184#comments
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Old 29th October 2007, 09:32 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Excellent! I particularly liked this part, which is something I have speculated about in the past:

I think his hypothesis is almost a certainly given the floor trusses were connected directly to the exterior columns. So when the exterior columns peeled away those floors were left only being held on by their connections to the core.

-Gumboot
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Old 30th October 2007, 02:50 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by pomeroo View Post
A fabulous discussion involving Arthur Scheuerman, who has written a book on the collapse of the towers, and a breathtaking gaggle of morons:

http://suzieqq.wordpress.com/2007/08...ur-scheuerman/
It's the condescension that gets me. Arthur Scheurman seems to have the crazy idea that all the evidence should be examined and the conclusions formed, and joined the "scholars" with that in mind. This seems to have affronted the Gaggle Of Morons, who as usual throw away all the evidence they don't like and start out with the conclusions.

Quote:
Quote:
Mr. Scheuerman,
I never imagined that such sinister forces could be at work until I found out the truth about OK City.
I feel bad for everyone who learns the truth about “Our America”. It’s your time.
Sit Down, and Learn
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Old 30th October 2007, 03:25 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
I think his hypothesis is almost a certainly given the floor trusses were connected directly to the exterior columns. So when the exterior columns peeled away those floors were left only being held on by their connections to the core.
Agreed, but note that his hypothesis was an attempt to explain faster than freefall collapse, which didn't happen anyway. There are certainly collapse mechanisms that would have happened faster than the Bazant model, which is why collapse time estimates based on column fracture are generally an upper limit.

Dave
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Old 30th October 2007, 03:48 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Agreed, but note that his hypothesis was an attempt to explain faster than freefall collapse, which didn't happen anyway. There are certainly collapse mechanisms that would have happened faster than the Bazant model, which is why collapse time estimates based on column fracture are generally an upper limit.

Dave

Ah right, I didn't pick up this was a proposed explanation for a "fast" collapse.

Personally I think the entire "calculating energy required to break structure" line of reasoning is inherently flawed because it doesn't reflect what was seen on the day.

The collapse initiation led to a sequence of events that caused the structure to separate into component elements. The exterior columns peeled outwards (this was a force loading they were never designed to resist), and the core columns became misaligned by the twisting of the upper floors.

The upper section never had to smash through a lower intact section, because by the time the falling debris reached the lower section it wasn't intact anymore.

-Gumboot
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Old 30th October 2007, 05:02 AM   #12
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Wow, did you catch this one?

Originally Posted by Julian H West

Clearly, the way to read Arthur Scheuerman’ analysis is to skip forward to his conclusions. If he doesn’t claim that the towers were demolished, all that complicated engineering stuff can safely be ignored.
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Old 30th October 2007, 05:26 AM   #13
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Sheesh. I read the title as Retired Firefighter Dies Debating the Loons.
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Old 30th October 2007, 05:26 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
Wow, did you catch this one?
I'll give you a couple of hours to nominate that for a Stundie. If you don't, I will.

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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

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Old 30th October 2007, 05:35 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I'll give you a couple of hours to nominate that for a Stundie. If you don't, I will.

Dave
Stundied. I want to reply, but what can you say to someone like that?
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Old 30th October 2007, 06:05 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
Stundied. I want to reply, but what can you say to someone like that?
That is so unbelievable that I caught myself halfway through muttering "You have got to be kidding me..". That looks more like truther parody.
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Old 30th October 2007, 06:37 AM   #17
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Is that blog moderated? I've tried to post 3 different times on two different browsers, and none of them have appeared yet.

Also: I'm glad that blog published such a rational view, but I'm also surprised. If you go to the rest of the blog, it seems as though a couple of the blog owners are sympathetic to the woo:

http://suzieqq.wordpress.com/2007/10...ial-911-story/

http://suzieqq.wordpress.com/2007/06...nddown-on-911/

Granted, those are different authors than the one who wrote the post linked in the OP here, but still, they're contributors.
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Old 30th October 2007, 10:13 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
Wow, did you catch this one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian H West

Clearly, the way to read Arthur Scheuerman’ analysis is to skip forward to his conclusions. If he doesn’t claim that the towers were demolished, all that complicated engineering stuff can safely be ignored.
I ,,,,,, um,,,,,,,, uh ,,,,,,
speechless!
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Old 30th October 2007, 03:10 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
Ah right, I didn't pick up this was a proposed explanation for a "fast" collapse.

Personally I think the entire "calculating energy required to break structure" line of reasoning is inherently flawed because it doesn't reflect what was seen on the day.

The collapse initiation led to a sequence of events that caused the structure to separate into component elements. The exterior columns peeled outwards (this was a force loading they were never designed to resist), and the core columns became misaligned by the twisting of the upper floors.

The upper section never had to smash through a lower intact section, because by the time the falling debris reached the lower section it wasn't intact anymore.

-Gumboot
While this is certainly possible, I'm not so sure. If the floors beneath the collapse were already moving before the upper section arrived then there would have been less crushing power and less dust. I suspect that the actual mechanism was more the debris hitting the floor area and the truss connections being stripped as they almost instantly overloaded. This is certainly bourne out by the truss seats almost universally being bent almost 180° to where they should have been which whould indicate that they were bent down by the trusses collapsing before the walls started outwards. I'd suggest that the floors went first and then without the support of the floors, the debris pushed the walls outwards into the "banana peel".
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Old 30th October 2007, 03:13 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Sheesh. I read the title as Retired Firefighter Dies Debating the Loons.
I thought it said Retired Firefighter Tires of Debating the Loons
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Old 30th October 2007, 03:29 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
I ,,,,,, um,,,,,,,, uh ,,,,,,
speechless!
You have no idea how sad it makes me that I wasn't surprised when I read that.
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Old 30th October 2007, 04:15 PM   #22
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I see the Suzie Q (the host of the above quoted blog) had not gotten the word that Al Gore (who she wants drafted as a Democratic Pres.Candidate) has on several occasions denounced 9/11 COnspiracy theories as total nonsense.
Funny, a lot of truthers are like this.
This is a good example of "Bush Derangement Syndrome" where hatred of Bush overcomes logic and sense.
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Old 30th October 2007, 04:49 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
Wow, did you catch this one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian H West

Clearly, the way to read Arthur Scheuerman’ analysis is to skip forward to his conclusions. If he doesn’t claim that the towers were demolished, all that complicated engineering stuff can safely be ignored.

This may well be the single most stupid thing I have ever had the stupifying displeasure to read in my entire freaking life. How can the assemblage of quivering protoplasm capable of uttering that statement even have the sense to remember to inhale?

"All that complicated engineering stuff," jumping Jehosaphat. I wonder if this person views the world outside their "mind" as "all that complicated reality stuff." Dylan, behold your handiwork.
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Old 30th October 2007, 09:26 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Redtail View Post
You have no idea how sad it makes me that I wasn't surprised when I read that.
That I was speechless? You make me blush.


I posted Arthur Scheuerman's WTC 7 article in the conspiracy section of theblackvault.com which for the past year has been taken over by some real wackos.
my post
Quote:
Of course there is the theory that the fires on 11 and 12 alone could have initiated the collapse.
It can be noted that the building was designed such that if a tenant wanted it, some floors could be removed. The columns could take the added unbraced length.

Of course in order to do that they would first brace the underside and support the floor span to be removed, THEN cut it away and take it out. This would mean that at no time would there be any lateral forces on the columns.

One could points out that the columns are very large and would take a long time to fail simply due to loss of strength by heating. However that also assumes that the lateral forces of a sagging floor span be the same as for a short span floor as in other examples such as the Cardington tests. WTC 7 used relativly long spans.

Here Arthur Scheuerman describes how fire alone could have doomed WTC 7.
While it cannot top Mr.West's reaction, one reply is;

Quote:
maelstrom writes
http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench/n...demolished-911

Arthur Scheuerman! This is better than TV.
Apparently Rosie O'Donnel is a more credible expert than Scheuerman.
Who knew?

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Old 30th October 2007, 09:42 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see the Suzie Q (the host of the above quoted blog) had not gotten the word that Al Gore (who she wants drafted as a Democratic Pres.Candidate) has on several occasions denounced 9/11 Conspiracy theories as total nonsense.
Funny, a lot of truthers are like this.
This is a good example of "Bush Derangement Syndrome" where hatred of Bush overcomes logic and sense.
I see Keith Olberman quoted often too. He really lambasts the administration, O'Reilly + FOX News, Limbaugh, and Beck + CNN, and the CT's love him for it. But Olberman does not believe in anything other than that Islamic fundementalists hijacked aircraft on 9/11 and then used them in suicide attacks on US buildings killing 3000 people. no bombs, nukes, thermite(ate), or space beams
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Old 31st October 2007, 08:26 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I thought it said Retired Firefighter Tires of Debating the Loons

You're both doing better than me. I got Retarded Firefighter Tries Debating the Loons
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Old 31st October 2007, 08:52 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Alareth View Post
You're both doing better than me. I got Retarded Firefighter Tries Debating the Loons
This might be closer than you think
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Old 1st November 2007, 08:12 PM   #28
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Another reply in the BV thread
http://www.theblackvault.com/ftopic-...derasc-15.html
Quote:
What evidence of c-4 in Building 7~lol~~~that ploy is old my friend. EVIDENCE~ so over rated it's ridiculous, but obviously only to the " SANE " Enough visual evidence to choke to death on.

Here's one~~~~~it's was really Harry Potter waving his wand that brought it down.

Thermite was everywhere ~~Evidence~NASA Photos of HOTTER THAN HELL~ Pools of molten steel glowing/burinng a month after the event~~~~This was probably Hippies Conspiracy theorists having a love in~~~~~the pics were actually glowing bongs, and embers from burning trash barrel fires used for warmth.

The powder substance, residue of pulverized concrete~~~~~just a figment ( by now anyway ) of imagination IN the MINDS OF the" INSANE "

Actually it was a result of the energy released by a gravitational collapse of a 1300' tall structure. This produced enough said energy to melt steel~ba wa lol Turning it to "steel dust"

The true evidence is that the OFFICIAL ACCOUNT is more full of holes that either Bonnie or Clyde~ any no one with half a brain can refute this in an intelligent manner. NO ONE.

Cole
So far no one has truly actually addressed my OP.
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Old 2nd November 2007, 02:35 PM   #29
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I just visited the susieqq blog and our old friend Aldo Marquis is holding court. He's blasting Mark for lying about the witnesses or something. He's outraged that I dared call him and his associate Craig Ranke by the name they've earned: frauds. I tried to soothe him by repeating my charge.
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Old 2nd November 2007, 03:07 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by pomeroo View Post
I just visited the susieqq blog and our old friend Aldo Marquis is holding court. He's blasting Mark for lying about the witnesses or something. He's outraged that I dared call him and his associate Craig Ranke by the name they've earned: frauds. I tried to soothe him by repeating my charge.
They must have an internet connection in their hotel room.

< http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_Fo...showtopic=9790 >
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Here is a diagram of a Boeing 767. I see numerous potential exit points. For example, the Nose Gear Door.... A-Train on "potential" exits on a 767.
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Old 2nd November 2007, 03:57 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by AMTMAN View Post
They must have an internet connection in their hotel room.

< http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_Fo...showtopic=9790 >

I wish you hadn't done that.

Originally Posted by CIT
Hey guys, we made it. We'll let you know how it all goes. We're meeting the rescuer who was inside the Pentagon and helped rescue April. He was the guy who sent us the letter. We've got few interviews scheduled, one is the very important witness who saw the plane come from the east side of the Potomac, over DC-which destroys the NTSB flight path.

I'm getting a distinct sense of Déjà vu.
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Old 3rd November 2007, 08:11 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by apathoid View Post
I wish you hadn't done that.




I'm getting a distinct sense of Déjà vu.

Couldn't help myself. Besides, you know once they are done with their "investigation" and announce they have "irrefutable" proof a truther is going to be here ranting about it.
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You of course would forget that the original burden of proof falls upon truthers. Swing Dangler commenting on the air phones issue

Here is a diagram of a Boeing 767. I see numerous potential exit points. For example, the Nose Gear Door.... A-Train on "potential" exits on a 767.
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Old 3rd November 2007, 09:30 AM   #33
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[quote]Retired Firefighter Tires of Debating the Loons [quote]

I need more coffee.... I got:

Retired Firefighter Tires of Deflating Balloons.
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Old 3rd November 2007, 09:38 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by AMTMAN View Post
They must have an internet connection in their hotel room.

< http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_Fo...showtopic=9790 >
Oh my.

"Aldo and I will be in Arlington from Thursday Nov 1st through Monday Nov 5th.

We have some important interviews lined up and will be continuing our investigation.

As a simple precaution we are making our trip public knowledge."

These loons are still playing their "sekret agent" game where they believe they need to make sure they publically announce their plans in case the NWO decides to off them.

You simply can't get any more delusional than that...
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Old 3rd November 2007, 09:40 AM   #35
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As a simple precaution I want to let everyone here know I may decide to post something at the lcf board tonight.

I just thought you all should know in case something untoward should happen to me as a result...
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Old 3rd November 2007, 10:31 AM   #36
AMTMAN
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Originally Posted by Calcas View Post
Oh my.

"Aldo and I will be in Arlington from Thursday Nov 1st through Monday Nov 5th.

We have some important interviews lined up and will be continuing our investigation.

As a simple precaution we are making our trip public knowledge."

These loons are still playing their "sekret agent" game where they believe they need to make sure they publically announce their plans in case the NWO decides to off them.

You simply can't get any more delusional than that...
My guess is they want attention, that's the reason they announced it. They also probably have some sort of juvenile fantasy of being in the lions den.
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Here is a diagram of a Boeing 767. I see numerous potential exit points. For example, the Nose Gear Door.... A-Train on "potential" exits on a 767.

Last edited by AMTMAN; 3rd November 2007 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 3rd November 2007, 10:55 AM   #37
jaydeehess
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Quote:
We've got few interviews scheduled, one is the very important witness who saw the plane come from the east side of the Potomac, over DC-which destroys the NTSB flight path.



Wouldn't it also destroy the idea that it flew towards the Pentagon passing just north of the Citgo? Would it not make the entire "Pentacon" an error?

,,, or am I turning my compass headings around,,,,,,,,,
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Old 20th November 2007, 10:58 AM   #38
ElMondoHummus
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Wow...

The link is broken if you follow it from here (from the OP). But if you enter it manually, or search through the archives, you get to the page. And the URL is exactly the same.

Did that site cut off referrals from this one? It appears so.
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