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#1 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,685
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Jim Hoffman willing to debate in a neutral environment
I have been posting on Diane's blog for a few days now, and she has had several e-mail exchanges and phone calls with Jim Hoffman in the past. I asked, if she could ask Hoffman to appear on Hardfire.
Here is the reply: "I’ve written to Jim Hoffman, and he has replied telling me that he would be interested in a debate, but only in a relatively neutral environment, with a host who is capable of being neutral. He would not be interested in a debate with Ronald Wieck as a host." Can we come up with a debate in some relatively neutral environment, and unfortunately not with Ron hosting? Any takers? Hardfire hosted by Gary Popkin? |
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9/11 Guide homepage Conspiracy theories abound and I believe firmly that all of them are without merit. - Chief Daniel Nigro |
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#2 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,899
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Shocking. Jim doesn't want to debate against a team of jrefers with a hostile jrefer as host. What a coward.
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(RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts) |
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#3 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
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Red:
Gravy is hardly a "team of JREFers". Ron has made no bones about his lack of bias. You should stop exaggerating or we might mistake you for a truther...lol TAM ![]() |
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#4 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
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9/11 Guide homepage Conspiracy theories abound and I believe firmly that all of them are without merit. - Chief Daniel Nigro |
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#5 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
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I believe Doc has a site that allows for a one on one written debate, but I doubt Hoffman wants that, as he will not be able to move the topic "on the fly" like the truther mantra dictates. I also suspect he will not debate Mark Roberts anyway. Did he indicate anyone in particular he would or would not debate?
TAM ![]() Edit: The fact is, Ron Weick is one of the few, if not the ONLY, Talk Show Host who is not bias in favor of the truthers, that will actually take the topic serious enough to provide a forum to debate. Hence, I see any other host as being unfair to the Debunker. TAM ![]() |
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#6 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,685
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9/11 Guide homepage Conspiracy theories abound and I believe firmly that all of them are without merit. - Chief Daniel Nigro |
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#7 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
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The only even remote possibility in terms of a perhaps somewhat neutral host might be the one in TO that hosted Gage and the special effects guy. He seemed to be able to keep himself out of it, and allowed both people a good share of time, IIRC.
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#8 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,899
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Call it a preemptive strike, but I've seen DRG and others insulted because they would not accept the strange terms of debate that is often proposed here.
If Hoffman got even a glance of how the DRG exchange with Wieck went, would you really be surprised that he asked for a non jref related venue? |
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(RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts) |
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#9 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,899
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(RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts) |
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#10 |
Drunken Shikigami
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 7,474
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they arent ridiculed for not accepting a hardfire debate, they are ridiculed for not suggesting an alternative
Tuther: I want to debate a JREFer but they wont accept becuase they are scared! JREFer: No, we arent scared, hows hardfire? Truther: No, i want a neutral host JREFer: Ok, who do you suggest? Truther: ... JREFer: Hello? Truther: ... JREFer: Ummm Truther: See! Their afraid to debate us! We win! |
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I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -Albert Einstein |
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#11 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,734
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Personally I don't see the point of debating any of them. With the exception of Griffin who sells books the rest are nobodies. Debating them would just give their theories an air of credibility and give them the attention they desire. Let them stay the internet loon show they are now.
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#12 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,685
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9/11 Guide homepage Conspiracy theories abound and I believe firmly that all of them are without merit. - Chief Daniel Nigro |
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#13 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,734
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#14 |
Game Warden
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,321
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There is no such thing as a neutral host- Ron, however, makes it perfectly clear that he's not neutral, which is what makes the playing field neutral.
If ANYONE can point to ANY example where Ron has unfairly used his non-neutral position to take over the debate or otherwise give an unfair shot to one side, then I will not only eat my hat, but I'll stop laughing at these loons because all they're doing is looking for a scapegoat. Beware anyone who tells you that they ARE neutral- they are lying. |
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"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into." --Jonathan Swift Blog - Corrected By Reality. My debunking videos, and philosophy on YouTube Totovader's 9/11 Conspiracy Challenge Still unanswered! |
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#15 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,899
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(RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts) |
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#16 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,244
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I suspect you are being intentionally disingenuous. Ron is not neutral and makes that clear, which means that everyone knows where they stand.
Others are not neutral, and pretend they are neutral, so the grounds of the debate shift in the middle; there is a hidden agenda, instead of Ron's revealed one. |
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#17 |
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 917
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That would be the same as a German referee in a German-Dutch Soccer game (or is it football?)
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#18 |
Drunken Shikigami
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 7,474
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I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -Albert Einstein |
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#19 |
Thinker
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 219
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I am surprised when any of them debate, it just is not in their best interests.
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#20 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2006
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I said lots of things in NPH that I would not say today and that I did not repeat in NPHR, where I specifically corrected at least some of the errors I had made in that earlier book, written 5 years ago. -David Ray Griffin- |
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#21 |
Critical Doofus
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 9,421
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Sure it is, as long as they have a moderator who is sympathetic and someone who gets flustered when they spout out a soundbyte as "fact."
Shermer wrote about the frustration of debating these wackjobs. It's easy to get lost in emotion when dealing with liars/delusional personalities. |
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"You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc." -lapman describing every twoofer on the internet |
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#22 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2006
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MarkyX's Haunted Bloghouse - Read my boredom |
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#23 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2007
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(RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts) |
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#24 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,152
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__________________
I said lots of things in NPH that I would not say today and that I did not repeat in NPHR, where I specifically corrected at least some of the errors I had made in that earlier book, written 5 years ago. -David Ray Griffin- |
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#25 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,899
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__________________
(RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts) |
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#26 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,152
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They were not confrontational. The hosts don't know anything about the gists of his arguments, so when they get on there they can't really get into it. The only person in the media who has really challenged the truthers is Bill O'Reilly, but he doesn't really know much about it either, so he just insults them. Which is entertaining admittedly, but not very productive.
By the way, before you attack my lack of knowledge of David Ray Griffin, you should do a little research. http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com...id+ray+griffin |
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I said lots of things in NPH that I would not say today and that I did not repeat in NPHR, where I specifically corrected at least some of the errors I had made in that earlier book, written 5 years ago. -David Ray Griffin- |
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#27 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,489
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I feel we are straying a little away from discussing Jim Hoffman's debating requirements.
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#28 |
Scholar
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 83
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Some good debates I've heard:
Kevin Ryan vs. Michael Shermer (Thom Hartmann show) Steven Jones vs Leslie Robertson (KGNU, "Morning Magazine" show, don't know the name of the host) Mike Berger vs Matthew Rothschild (Dino Costa show) In all 3 cases, the moderator was fair and let both debaters air their side; I'd recommend any of them for a Jim Hoffman debate. |
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#29 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,723
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen -Einstein |
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#30 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,072
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Does Jim Hoffman have any conclusions that are rational?
You know I looked up Jim Hoffman and he is dead, just like the terrorist that are alive. Fact 1 on Jim Hoffman - his web site debunks himself; debunks all his so called conclusions. Jim's dust calculations are funny; check them out if you want to waste time with another nut case non theories. Cute how all the little drones for 9/11 truth come out and defend Hoffman by bashing themselves. Good job JREF truthers. |
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#31 |
Graduate Poster
Tagger
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,521
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Get Hoffman and David Ray Griffs TOGETHER against Mark and Ron.
Why shut down one when you can shut down two? |
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#32 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,154
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That Ron has a bias/opinion on the issue is moot unless it can be demonstrated that such bias/opinion in conjunction with this role on the show is leveraged to slant the debate. I'd argue that his past 9/11 debates show him perfectly willing to provide equal talk time, not silence mikes, not shout people down (a la Oh'Really), etc.
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#33 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
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Hoffman and DRG versus Weick and Roberts would be a GREAT idea...as well, DRG may be a little more agreeable to it, if he has help.
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#34 |
Downsitting Citizen
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,078
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"Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard |
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#35 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,081
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Before our resident conspiracy liars work up a full head of steam rationalizing Hoffman's cowardice, let's have a reality check. Hoffman was scheduled to appear on 'Hardfire' as my very first guest. He pulled out at the last minute, for no particular reason, and announced that he might be available later in the summer, but probably wouldn't be available ever. It is possible that one particularly deranged fantasist on a libertarian debate forum I used to frequent tipped him off to my stated intention of using Dr. Greening's work to refute his faulty calculations. Indeed, my preparations for the interview led me to contact Dr. Greening, and I have been grateful for his help many times since then. We managed to find a replacement in Les Jamieson. You know the rest of the story.
Hoffman is, of course, blowing smoke when he suggests that I'm the reason he wouldn't appear on 'Hardfire.' He wouldn't dream of facing Mark Roberts under any reasonable conditions. He would require the host to cut off Roberts the moment he began to speak. But Hoffman isn't alone. There are several well-informed rationalists on the JREF who could never persuade any of the more visible charlatans to stop running long enough to subject the myths of the fantasy movement to critical scrutiny. What else is new? |
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#36 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,081
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#37 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
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I know Ron, remember I am usually the one telling you this...lol One can always dream...
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#38 |
Downsitting Citizen
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,078
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Last week I emailed Hoffman and for the second time asked him to remove a statement that appears twice on his site, including on the home page. He claims that the NIST report is deceptive because it doesn't show the tower column dimensions.
I showed him where the dimensions appear in the report, as well as the diagram of where the columns transition from box to wide flange. Someone named Victoria Ashley replied and said that it's not so much that the dimensions don't appear in the report, but that Hoffman thinks the report "appears crafted to conceal such information." ![]() |
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"Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard |
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#40 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,726
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Let me suggest a written debate rather than an oral one. I'm not mocking Hoffman, but he has a very pronounced stammer which is not conducive to verbal arguments. In addition, a written debate eliminates the advantage the "Truthers" have in that they can spout 30 bits of nonsense in a minute, each of which requires a detailed response, which inevitably means that lots of their claims don't get rebutted due to time constraints.
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My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
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