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Tags homeopathy , dana ullman

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Old 26th November 2007, 01:10 AM   #1
Badly Shaved Monkey
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Even More Fun with Homeopath Dana Ullman, MPH(!)

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/...s_showing.html

Unfortunately the time-gate has closed on that thread. I wonder whether JamesGully or his extremely close friend Dana Ullman will dare to show up here to keep it going.

It was getting to be fun.

I think we can assume he reads these forums, so I'll ask the question that he seems determined to overlook in his paranoid fantasies of " Big Pharma reps who are hired guns". Though, I should also like to know, if Big Pharma is hiring "guns" does anyone know what the pay is like and whether it can compete with the living that Mr Ullman is making for himself?

"GIVE ONE, YOU ONLY NEED ONE, INCONTROVERTIBLE EXAMPLE, WITH REFERENCES, OF HOMEOPATHY CURING A NON-SELF-LIMITING CONDITION."
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Old 26th November 2007, 08:53 AM   #2
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I note Dana did turn up in the original thread, right on cue. Saying that we are right to be afraid of his book, because it is very dangerous.

And saying goodbye, that he will no longer debate with us. Presumably, to certain definitions of "debate".

Here is the post, for your delectation.

Originally Posted by JamesGully View Post
Wow...I commited a "crime" of promoting my book. Be careful because this book IS dangerous. It'll kill your misinformation on homeopathy. It'll mangle your unscientific attitude towards homeopathy. It is that dangerous.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

What is so ironic is that no one has the capacity to admit they may have been wrong. It is not worth talking to you.

Yes, I initially used the name, James Gully, here because he was Darwin's homeopathy. Le Canard wrote an article about this subject, but he forgot to do one thing: he forgot to do adequate homework. You cannot get an accurate picture of Darwin's experience with homeopathy and with Dr. Gully by doing superficial research. Whoops.

Superficial reviews of research and history is the order of the day on this site. Sad and true. Good-bye.

This guy has flounced off more times than Kumar!

Rolfe.
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Old 26th November 2007, 08:59 AM   #3
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BSM, the thread arising from that Comment is Free article is amazing, and I've only got a short way down it. The most utterly delicious moment was when one of the very few homoeopathy defenders (Baba Yaga) turned out to be also a 9/11 "Truther", and expressed amazement that we thought we could see through the "conspiracy" of homoeopathy, but still swallowed the government's "conspiracy" theory (that a bunch of Arabs hijacked some airliners and flew them into the buildings) without question.

Why am I less than totally amazed by this?

Rolfe.
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Old 26th November 2007, 09:04 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
BSM, the thread arising from that Comment is Free article is amazing, and I've only got a short way down it. The most utterly delicious moment was when one of the very few homoeopathy defenders (Baba Yaga) turned out to be also a 9/11 "Truther", and expressed amazement that we thought we could see through the "conspiracy" of homoeopathy, but still swallowed the government's "conspiracy" theory (that a bunch of Arabs hijacked some airliners and flew them into the buildings) without question.

Why am I less than totally amazed by this?

Rolfe.
Must be a reader of the whale.to website.
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Old 26th November 2007, 10:50 AM   #5
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I also loved the descent to Godwinism of the poster who likened the anti-homoeopathy sentiments being expressed to anti-Semitism. And defended the comparison by revealing that, as a Jew, s/he was all too used to such things.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ben Goldacre Jewish?

Rolfe.
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Old 26th November 2007, 11:02 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I also loved the descent to Godwinism of the poster who likened the anti-homoeopathy sentiments being expressed to anti-Semitism. And defended the comparison by revealing that, as a Jew, s/he was all too used to such things.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ben Goldacre Jewish?

Rolfe.
No idea. Judaism is supposed to pass through the maternal line isn't it? His mum is Noosha FoxWP. But I have no idea if she is jewish either...

PS: Did you know Himmler was married to a homeopath?

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Old 26th November 2007, 12:26 PM   #7
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Will he, won't he, will he, won't he, come and join the dance?

Oh, I'm so excited, I can hardly wait.

I expect, even as we sit here, he's collating the records of a load of AIDS patients or someone with metastatic cancer that he cured. It's going to be so great!!!

Because he must have personal experience of really treating serious diseases. He can't have spent his entire career treating people with achy tummies or ME and separating them from their money.

His website sells loads of books. They must be full of rip-snorting case histories. This is going to be such an easy task for him.

Ooh, I can't wait.
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Old 26th November 2007, 12:28 PM   #8
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Sshhh! Sshhh!

Don't spoil the moment with too many posts, let's keep that big question in view, you know how easily distracted homeopaths can be;

GIVE ONE, YOU ONLY NEED ONE, INCONTROVERTIBLE EXAMPLE, WITH REFERENCES, OF HOMEOPATHY CURING A NON-SELF-LIMITING CONDITION.
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"Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park)
Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.
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Old 26th November 2007, 03:29 PM   #9
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Hi from a newby....the Grauniad thread was fun (I was a participant, and I understand at least one of you was (were?), too), and the great stuff you guys posted on the other Ullman thread here was fantastic reference - thanks. The effort you put in elsewhere in assessing the UV absorption data, and sending a critical letter was also impressive.

Having to dig up references to each paper quoted in favour of homeopathy, and assessing it from scratch in response to yet another baseless claim from a cut'n'paste merchant is tiresome. Critiques of many of the old favourites can usually be found online - has anyone collected links to all these various critiques in one place? Lots of work involved there, I know, but it would be a useful resource. (I lack the computer skills to do it, before it's suggested; sorry....)
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Old 26th November 2007, 11:17 PM   #10
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Heck...let's have fun with this one...I'm sure that you'll now agree that ALL of these basic science journals are now advocates of homeopathy and are no longer trustworthy. In fact, no one is trustworthy except you. Hmmm...what is the name for this type of thinking and self-congratulatory attitudes?

A Homeopathic Product with Suspected Immunomodulatory Activity:
Recently several microscopy techniques were utilized to demonstrate that the complex homoeopathic medicine, called Canova,* activates macrophages. Piemonte and Buchi (2002) demonstrated both in vivo and in vitro that mice macrophages treated with Canova were activated according to morphologic, biochemical and molecular criteria. The results showed that TNF- release decreased after repeated doses of Canova, and De Oliveira et al. (2006) showed the enhancement in nitric oxide (NO) production and in inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS). NO and reactive oxygen species (ROS) are critical in host defense and against tumoral cells. The improvement in immune response of treated Sarcoma 180-bearing mice was demonstrated by Sato et al. (2005). A reduction in sarcoma size was observed and a significant infiltration of lymphoid cells, granulation tissue and fibrosis occurred surrounding the tumor. All animals from the treated group survived, and a total regression of the tumor was shown in 30% of them. All microscopy techniques showed that monocytic lineage (CD11b) and stromal cells (adherent cells) from bone marrow were activated by treatment (Abud et al., 2006). The scientific studies with homoeopathic medicines indicate the need of a careful examination of the interplay between homoeopathic medicaments and macrophages in the treatment of a malignancy. The functional relationship between immune cells production of cytokines and the response to homoeopathic treatment is an important area for future research.

* Canova is a combination of several well-known homeopathic remedies (Aconite, Bryonia, Thuja, Arsenicum album and Lachesis).


Abud AP, Cesar B, Cavazzani LF, de Oliveira CC, Gabardo J, Buchi Dde F (2006). Activation of bone marrow cells treated with Canova in vitro. Cell Biol Int. Oct;30(10):808-16.

Cesar, B, Abud AP, de Oliveira CC, et al. (2007), Activation of mononuclear bone marrow cells treated in vitro with a complex homeopathic medication. Micron. Feb:22.

de Oliveira CC, de Oliveira SM, Godoy LM, Gabardo J, Buchi Dde F. Canova (2006). A Brazilian medical formulation alters oxidative metabolism of mice macrophages. J Infect. 2006 Jun;52(6):420-32.

Piemonte MDR, De Freitas Buchi D (2002). Analysis of IL-2, IFN-gamma and TNF-alpha production, alpha5 beta1 integrins and actin filaments distribution in peritoneal mouse macrophages treated with homeopathic medicament. J Submicrosc Cytol Pathol. Jul;34(3):255-63.

Sato DYO, Wal R, de Oliveira CC, et al (2005) Histopathological and immunophenotyping studies on normal and sarcoma 180-bearing mice treated with a complex homeopathic medication, Homeopathy: the Journal of the Faculty of Homeopathy; 94, 26-32.

Seligmann IC, Lima PD, Cardoso PC, Khayat AS, Bahia MO, Buchi Dde F, Cabral IR, Burbano RR (2003). The anticancer homeopathic composite "Canova method" is not genotoxic for human lymphocytes in vitro. Genet Mol Res. Jun 30;2(2):223-8.
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Old 26th November 2007, 11:34 PM   #11
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[quote=JamesGully;3190274]

A Homeopathic Product with Suspected Immunomodulatory Activity:
Recently several microscopy techniques were utilized to demonstrate that the complex homoeopathic medicine, called Canova,* activates macrophages. Piemonte and Buchi (2002) demonstrated both in vivo and in vitro that mice macrophages treated with Canova were activated according to morphologic, biochemical and molecular criteria. The results showed that TNF- release decreased after repeated doses of Canova, and De Oliveira et al. (2006) showed the enhancement in nitric oxide (NO) production and in inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS). NO and reactive oxygen species (ROS) are critical in host defense and against tumoral cells.


Dear Doctor,

I'm just a regular guy, so maybe you can explain to me what this stuff means in plain english. There are a lot of big technical words in this reference, but like most scientific and technical ideas, I'm hoping that they should be explicable to a layman. I mean if a guy like me can get to a rudimentary understanding of how my computer works, surely you can spell out exactly what, in this context, you mean by all this and how the Canova stuff works. I might need it some day, but being skeptical I usually feel better the more I know.

Thank you very much in advance.
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Old 27th November 2007, 03:03 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by JamesGully View Post
Heck...let's have fun with this one... {snip}
Okay. You still cannot provide reliable, clinical evidence because it does not exist. I looked-up one article, and they did not specify the potency, nor was there any evidence that the prep was not tampered with. A 2X prep, or a prep with a (hidden) active ingredient, can produce the results they see.

Nonetheless, there remains the fact that there is no evidence for homeopathic efficacy in humans.

Last edited by JJM; 27th November 2007 at 03:04 AM.
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Old 27th November 2007, 03:04 AM   #13
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Dana, I think you'll find that this thread opens by asking you a very simple question

You have failed to answer it again. If you'd like to start a thread on these in vitro studies, then please do so. For now:

Are you prepared to confirm that you have read each of those papers in their original?

I'd hate to think you were just cutting and pasting summaries of papers you haven't read. Having had your butt kicked on your misrepresentation of those Frass papers one might have hoped that you'd have learnt a lesson.

But, since reading comprehension and consistency do not seem to be included in your skill-set, possibly squeezed out by the space required to maintain that enthusiasm for self-promotion, here is the question you have not answered;

"GIVE ONE, YOU ONLY NEED ONE, INCONTROVERTIBLE EXAMPLE, WITH REFERENCES, OF HOMEOPATHY CURING A NON-SELF-LIMITING CONDITION."

Your silence on this is becoming ever more revealing.
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Old 27th November 2007, 03:17 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
GIVE ONE, YOU ONLY NEED ONE, INCONTROVERTIBLE EXAMPLE, WITH REFERENCES, OF HOMEOPATHY CURING A NON-SELF-LIMITING CONDITION.

Originally Posted by JamesGully (Dana Ullman) View Post
Bunch of references almost exclusively dealing with in vitro investigations, those which do involve in vivo work seem to have been carried out on laboratory mice.

This does not even begin to address the question. While I'm sure neither BSM nor I would presume to insist that non-human patients be excluded from consideration, what you have presented is all benchwork! No actual patients, no case-taking, and no cure.

Remember, we're always being told how important the case-taking and the individualisation of the remedy is, the necessity for getting the right simillimum and so on. The fact that homoeopathy treats the whole patient, not just the disease. And we're always being given examples of alleged miracle cures, which on closer examination all turn out to be highly suspect, with no definite confirmation of the diagnosis, or the recovery, or that any recovery was not attributable to concurrent treatment with conventional medicine and so on.

So, BSM was asking for just one such miracle cure, fully and comprehensively documented. And all you can come up with is some studies on mice, not individualised, and interestingly enough demonstrating what is often alleged to be a heinous homoeopathic crime, polypharmacy.

Have you really and truly got not one single documented case where homoeopathy cured someone with a documented diagnosis of something non-self-limiting, with the recovery also clearly documented (lab results would be nice), and excluding the possibility of conventional medicine being able to take the credit? Not a single one? Really and truly?

Now I suppose we could start to nitpick our way through these papers you've cited. Been there, done that, with other publications you were very keen on (Rao et al., anyone?). Every single such paper which has been represented to me as containing good evidence for homoeopathy has turned out to be so badly designed, executed and presented that the possibility of deliberate obfuscation bordering on fraud could not be discounted. I'm not really expecting anything better from this lot.

So, would you rather do another journal critique exercise on these papers (I'd like to know for a start whether the preparation in use was in fact ultramolecular or not, I certainly don't see any mention of "30C" or anything like that), with results I suspect I can predict?

Or could you maybe address BSM's question, and present a properly-documented case of a recovery from a non-self-limiting condition which can be plausibly attributed to homoeopathy?

Rolfe.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 27th November 2007 at 04:37 AM.
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Old 27th November 2007, 08:00 AM   #15
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You skeptics are so easy to tweak. You ALL insist that homeopaths use too small of a dose to have ANY biological effect. Then, you squirm and squirm and squirm when you are shown evidence of a biological effect. You avoid the evidence. Will someone respond to my previous post in an intelligent way? And please stop saying what you think the important question is (as though there is just one important question). There are many important questions.

Here's another basic science study (the squirming can begin).

Jonas et al (2006) injected 100 Copenhagen mice with a standardized dose of MAT-LyLu rat prostate cancer cells, From day 2, animals were given 100 μL daily of one of four homeopathic remedies in rotation (Thuja occidentalis 1000C, Conium maculatum 1000C, and Sabal serrulata 200C and Carcinosin 1000C) or control water by oral gavage. Tumor volume was measured every four days. Animals treated homeopathically had a 23% decrease in tumor incidence, and significantly longer overall and tumor-free survival, as compared with controls. Tumor volume among tumor-bearing animals was 38% lower in the homeopathically treated group, and tumor weight was 13% lower, than in the control group. In an attempt to elucidate mechanisms for this phenomenon, proliferating cell nuclear antigen (PCNA) was measured in tumor tissues of the two groups. There was a 6% reduction in PCNA-positive cells in the homeopathy-treated group as compared to control. Terminal deoxynucleotidyl transferase mediated d-uridine triphosphate nick end labeling (TUNEL) assay of tumor tissues demonstrated a significant 19% increase in apoptotic positive nuclei in the homeopathy-treated group as compared to control. Cell viability and apoptosis gene expression were not affected, as measured by MTT assay and rAPO-1 multiprobe, respectively. The authors concluded that, in this model, homeopathy slowed progression of cancer and reduced cancer incidence and mortality.

Jonas WB, Jaya P, Gaddipati NV, et al (2006). Can homeopathic treatment slow prostate cancer growth? Integr Cancer Ther; 5; 343

I bet you think that these mice are simply responding to the loving care of the experimenter. Even though this was a double-blind trial, you seem to believe that homeopaths have a mystical power. Ironically, you are much more metaphysical than I am.
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Old 27th November 2007, 08:25 AM   #16
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Do you know what, folks?

I really think he has not got an answer for this one;

GIVE ONE, YOU ONLY NEED ONE, INCONTROVERTIBLE EXAMPLE, WITH REFERENCES, OF HOMEOPATHY CURING A NON-SELF-LIMITING CONDITION

I have already suggested, Dana, that you start a thread to talk about research studies. Though if your past record is anything to go by they will not be worth reading. Nonethless, I suggest you create a new thread and post the full citation to this study and any others you wish. Well, no, I'll even make a new thread for you. Herehttp://www.internationalskeptics.com...ad.php?t=99751 it is.

This thread is for answers to the question already posed and evaded yet again. I will reiterate;

GIVE ONE, YOU ONLY NEED ONE, INCONTROVERTIBLE EXAMPLE, WITH REFERENCES, OF HOMEOPATHY CURING A NON-SELF-LIMITING CONDITION
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Old 27th November 2007, 10:07 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by JamesGully View Post
You skeptics are so easy to tweak. You ALL insist that homeopaths use too small of a dose to have ANY biological effect. Then, you squirm and squirm and squirm when you are shown evidence of a biological effect. You avoid the evidence. Will someone respond to my previous post in an intelligent way? And please stop saying what you think the important question is (as though there is just one important question). There are many important questions.

Here's another basic science study (the squirming can begin).

Jonas et al (2006) injected 100 Copenhagen mice with a standardized dose of MAT-LyLu rat prostate cancer cells, From day 2, animals were given 100 μL daily of one of four homeopathic remedies in rotation (Thuja occidentalis 1000C, Conium maculatum 1000C, and Sabal serrulata 200C and Carcinosin 1000C) or control water by oral gavage. Tumor volume was measured every four days. Animals treated homeopathically had a 23% decrease in tumor incidence, and significantly longer overall and tumor-free survival, as compared with controls. Tumor volume among tumor-bearing animals was 38% lower in the homeopathically treated group, and tumor weight was 13% lower, than in the control group. In an attempt to elucidate mechanisms for this phenomenon, proliferating cell nuclear antigen (PCNA) was measured in tumor tissues of the two groups. There was a 6% reduction in PCNA-positive cells in the homeopathy-treated group as compared to control. Terminal deoxynucleotidyl transferase mediated d-uridine triphosphate nick end labeling (TUNEL) assay of tumor tissues demonstrated a significant 19% increase in apoptotic positive nuclei in the homeopathy-treated group as compared to control. Cell viability and apoptosis gene expression were not affected, as measured by MTT assay and rAPO-1 multiprobe, respectively. The authors concluded that, in this model, homeopathy slowed progression of cancer and reduced cancer incidence and mortality.

Jonas WB, Jaya P, Gaddipati NV, et al (2006). Can homeopathic treatment slow prostate cancer growth? Integr Cancer Ther; 5; 343

I bet you think that these mice are simply responding to the loving care of the experimenter. Even though this was a double-blind trial, you seem to believe that homeopaths have a mystical power. Ironically, you are much more metaphysical than I am.
I can't figure out from the above whether there were 100 mice or 33-1/3 mice in each of the three groups but, in any case, the sample size seems small. In the world of real medicine such a study would be repeated with larger sample sizes by someone else. I'll wait for those results before cheering.
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Old 27th November 2007, 10:33 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
I can't figure out from the above whether there were 100 mice or 33-1/3 mice in each of the three groups but, in any case, the sample size seems small. In the world of real medicine such a study would be repeated with larger sample sizes by someone else. I'll wait for those results before cheering.
Gord, it looks like there was 48 in the control group, and 48 received the homeopathic cocktail.

And I think their conclusions were closer to your reaction than Dana/James

Quote:
Given the lack of mechanism to explain our findings,
any interpretation of these data should be done cautiously.

However, we employed a careful, systematic,
and blinded approach (pilot tests; sufficiently powered,
blinded study; confirmatory histopathology;
PCNA and TUNEL assays) and therefore felt the
information should be published so others can attempt
independent replications.
(bold mine)
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Old 27th November 2007, 10:45 AM   #19
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This should probably be discussed in the other thread set up specifically for that purpose (linked in BSMs last post).

Wouldn't want to distract Mr Ullman from the topic of this thread.
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Old 27th November 2007, 10:59 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
This should probably be discussed in the other thread set up specifically for that purpose (linked in BSMs last post).

Wouldn't want to distract Mr Ullman from the topic of this thread.
And what would that topic be, Professor?

Oh, yes;


GIVE ONE, YOU ONLY NEED ONE, INCONTROVERTIBLE EXAMPLE, WITH REFERENCES, OF HOMEOPATHY CURING A NON-SELF-LIMITING CONDITION

I haven't done it for a while, but I'm going to start a clock on this.

Time since Dana first posted after this question was originally posed;

T+02d 00h 59m 19s
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Old 27th November 2007, 12:14 PM   #21
Dean Morrison
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Quote:
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ben Goldacre Jewish?
- not that it's at all relevant - but 'Goldacre' doesn't appear to be a 'Jewish' name? more likely from Suffolk farming stock??

http://www.nationaltrustnames.org.uk...y=GB&type=name

- the 'Spatial Literacy site is a lot of fun:

http://www.nationaltrustnames.org.uk/

- incidentally Rolfe - how is your 'disgraceful conduct' charge progressing???
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Old 27th November 2007, 03:00 PM   #22
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That's interesting, chalk up one complete jump-to-wrong-conclusion to me.

Dismissed with "don't be snarky to your esteemed colleagues by name in public no matter how off-the-wall their methods."

By the way, BSM, I've finished the Grauniad thread, and I have to say that your sarky comments cheered me up no end while doing some tedious marking. (OK, snivelling little college student, so you don't know the maximum permitted number of hens per square metre, even though it's in the book in front of you. So find some other number and put that in. Like 120. Don't even think about plausibility, no, why should you....) No matter where you find these pseudonyms, the style is unmistakable.

Now, wouldn't want to derail this thread while we wait for Dana, so here's my thoughts. We're waiting for a fully-documented example of homoeopathy curing a patient presenting with a confirmed diagnosis of a non-self-limiting illness. Documented diagnosis, documented treatment, and documented proof of recovery that can't be attributed to anything else but homoeopathy.

I'm rather resigned to a series of uninspiring tall tales. Like the woman on the Horizon programme who had had every anti-cancer therapy in the book but still attributed her survival to see her grandchildren grow up to "a homoeopathic solution of common salt". No documentation whatsoever of a single word of it, even the original diagnosis. Then we'll be the villains for not accepting his responses when he gives them. If he does.

Nevertheless, what sort of conditions might fit the bill? BSM mentioned metastatic carcinoma and end stage renal failure. Good start. HCN has in the past suggested hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.

I'm a fan of conditions requiring permanent hormone replacement therapy. Nice and easy to document. So, insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus (cats don't count, we all know they frequently go into spontaneous remission with the right diet, so out of bounds). Addison's disease. (See my sig for what happened when that one was hypothetically presented to H'pathy Forums.) Primary hypothyroidism.

The point is we know how to confirm these diagnoses absolutely water-tight. And we know what happens if the patient doesn't get treated. So, evidence that a patient was clinically normal and had normal lab results without needing any HRT after homoeopathic treatment would be very compelling.

Any more suggestions?

Not that the challenge is limited to those conditions, but just to give an idea of what sort of "cure" we're looking for.

Rolfe.
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Old 27th November 2007, 03:32 PM   #23
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I think diagnoses with what we would recognise as severe degenerative pathology. Let's see homeopathy fix a cirrhotic liver.

One attraction of this is that it is a chronic disease so very likely to have crossed the path of a homeopath because although serious it can be well-managed for a long time but with the probable presence of niggling unpleasant symptoms that would be meat and drink to a hom and something they should really be able to get to grips with using their 'complete system of medicine'. Equally though, even if a patient was willing to tell the hom they felt a bit better subjectively, unless the liver has recovered they are not going to stay symptom-free for long.

OK, it's mid-afternoon in La-La Land and

T= 02d 05h 26m 46s
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Old 27th November 2007, 04:41 PM   #24
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A couple of people on the Bad Science blog have also suggested suitable conditions. Ebola was one. I still haven't finished reading it, but I'll go back later and try to pick them out.

BSM, you just crack me up, you know. Especially on other forums, for some reason. Does Mrs. BSM know what you get up to at nights?

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Old 27th November 2007, 04:50 PM   #25
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BSM, I too have perused the Grauniad thread.
Excellent stuff - It deserves to be preserved for posterity.

PS: "slop-bucket"! (forgive me if I nick that one in future)

PPS: Oh, and not to detract from the purpose of this thread,
Dana Ullman/James Gully, please could you:
GIVE ONE, YOU ONLY NEED ONE, INCONTROVERTIBLE EXAMPLE, WITH REFERENCES, OF HOMEOPATHY CURING A NON-SELF-LIMITING CONDITION?
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Old 27th November 2007, 04:55 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
BSM, you just crack me up, you know. Especially on other forums, for some reason. Does Mrs. BSM know what you get up to at nights?
Yes, and I'd cut down my forum-time, but Ben's recent Grauniad piece was such dynamite and it's been fun to fight the good fight again.
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Old 27th November 2007, 04:56 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Deetee View Post
PS: "slop-bucket"! (forgive me if I nick that one in future)
Only by prior arrangement with the estate of Michael Flanders.

Anyway, what were we talking about? Oh, yes.


GIVE ONE, YOU ONLY NEED ONE, INCONTROVERTIBLE EXAMPLE, WITH REFERENCES, OF HOMEOPATHY CURING A NON-SELF-LIMITING CONDITION?
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"Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park)
Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.
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Old 27th November 2007, 04:57 PM   #28
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Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.
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Old 27th November 2007, 05:05 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
Gord, it looks like there was 48 in the control group, and 48 received the homeopathic cocktail.
Ha. Ha. On first reading I thought there were three groups -- magic water with sub-atomic quantum properties, distilled water, and tap water that after banging and thumping around in the hydrologic cycle and the city water supply had no magic properties. On further thought, I think I'd like to see this experient done.

Quote:
And I think their conclusions were closer to your reaction than Dana/James
What the H do I know? I only have a ministership in the Unversal Life Church to put up against the homeopathic degrees.
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Old 27th November 2007, 09:53 PM   #30
Dana Ullman
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The COPD study at the University of Vienna Hospital and published in CHEST (2005) is one such good piece of research despite what minor critique has been given to it. Although some weak critique was made about the treatment group and the control group were not perfectly comparable, there was not statistical difference between the groups, and due to the substantial differences in treatment results, this trial fits your criteria...but heck, you can never admit you're wrong, so what is the point?

Unless someone can provide a statistical analysis of why the results of this trial are not valid, please just admit that there are good reasons that CHEST published this fine piece of research...and if you and someone in your family had COPD, would you consider using the homeopathic medicine that was shown to be helpful? What is interesting and unusual about THIS study was that only ONE homeopathic medicine was given, without individualization of treatment. The results of this trial surprised me, but this medicine is known to cause (and cure) thick tracheal secretions like those with advanced COPD.

My previous reference to another trial also at the University of Vienna Hospital on patients with severe sepsis found a 50% reduced mortality rate in patients who were given an individually selected homeopathic medicine, as compared with those given a placebo. The only critique that was given to this trial was that people should avoid Vienna is the normal death rate for severe sepsis is 50%, even though the literature normally find that the death rate for this serious condition is between 40-70% (is this condition adequately beyond self-limiting?).

That said...there is so much more (but those of you who don't look will never find anything).

A small but significant study of people with brain cancer was conducted in association with M.D. Anderson Cancer Center at the University of Texas (one of the most respected cancer research centers in the world), and it was published in the prestigious journal, International Journal of Oncology). Fifteen patient diagnosed with intracranial tumors were treated with Ruta 6X and Calcarea phosphorica (calcium phosphate) 3X (Pathak, Multani, Banerji, 2003). Of the 15 patients, 8 of the 9 glioma patients showed complete regression of tumors; 1 of 3 with meningioma showed complete regression and 2 of 3 showed prolonged arrest; 1 with neurinoma showed prolonged arrest; 1 with craiopharyngioma and 1 with pituitary tumors both showed complete regression.

Providing further verification of the benefits of Ruta graveolens was an animal study (Preethi K, Kuttan G, Kuttan, 2006). An extract of Ruta graveolens was found to be cytotoxic to Dalton's lymphoma ascites (DLA), Ehrlich ascites carcinoma (EAC) and L929 cells in culture (IC100 = 16mg/ml) and also to increase the lifespan of tumour bearing animals. The extract further decreased solid tumours developing from DLA and EAC cells when given simultaneously with elongation of the lifespan of tumour-bearing animals. A homeopathic preparation of Ruta graveolens (200c) was equally effective. Neither was effective for reducing already developed tumours. The Ruta graveolens extract was found to scavenge hydroxyl radicals and inhibit lipid peroxidation at low concentrations. However, at higher concentrations the extract acted as a prooxidant as inhibition of lipid peroxidation and scavenging of hydroxyl radical was minimal. These data indicates that the prooxidant activity of Ruta graveolens may be responsible for the cytocidal action of the extract and its ability to produce tumour reduction.
These researchers also conducted several laboratory experiments in which one or both of these homeopathic medicines showed induction of survival-signaling pathways in normal lymphocytes as well as the induction of death-signaling pathways in brain cancer cells (this means that these medicines improved immune function and increased the body’s ability to kill cancer cells). The researchers also note that one of Ruta’s active ingredients is Rutin, which is know for having anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory activities and for reducing oxidative damage. The researchers also provide additional detail about the therapeutic benefits from calcium phosphate.

Pathak S, Multani AS, Banerji P, Banerji P., Ruta 6 selectively induces cell death in brain cancer cells but proliferation in normal peripheral blood lymphocytes: A novel treatment for human brain cancer. Int J Oncol. 2003 Oct;23(4):975-82.

Preethi K, Kuttan G, Kuttan R Anti-tumour activity of ruta graveolens extract. Asian Pac J Cancer Prev. 2006 Jul-Sep;7(3):439-43.
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Old 28th November 2007, 12:34 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by JamesGully View Post
The COPD study at the University of Vienna Hospital and published in CHEST (2005) is one such good piece of research despite what minor critique has been given to it. Although some weak critique was made about the treatment group and the control group were not perfectly comparable, there was not statistical difference between the groups, and due to the substantial differences in treatment results, this trial fits your criteria...but heck, you can never admit you're wrong, so what is the point?

Unless someone can provide a statistical analysis of why the results of this trial are not valid...

Try here and here.

You still haven't provided a reference to where the authors of the article "blew [this] critique out of the water", by the way.
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Old 28th November 2007, 01:20 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by JamesGully View Post
More evasions
Dana,



Please try to understand, this thread is not for the discussion of more research. I started a thread for that purpose here.


The only reason for discussing research papers in this thread is to fill it more more of your jejune waffle in an attempt to divert attention from this question;

"GIVE ONE, YOU ONLY NEED ONE, INCONTROVERTIBLE EXAMPLE, WITH REFERENCES, OF HOMEOPATHY CURING A NON-SELF-LIMITING CONDITION."

T = 02d 15h 20m 07s
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Old 28th November 2007, 01:29 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by JamesGully View Post
The COPD study at the University of Vienna Hospital and published in CHEST (2005) is
garbage, see
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/20...ringeicu_1.php

The control group was less healthy than the "treated" group. That happens in such small studies.
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Old 28th November 2007, 01:32 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by JJM View Post
garbage, see
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/20...ringeicu_1.php

The control group was less healthy than the "treated" group. That happens in such small studies.
Can I ask that responses to Dana's prevarications and diversionary tactics are made in the other thread. This thread is his opportunity to answer this question;

GIVE ONE, YOU ONLY NEED ONE, INCONTROVERTIBLE EXAMPLE, WITH REFERENCES, OF HOMEOPATHY CURING A NON-SELF-LIMITING CONDITION.

T = 02d 15h 32m 12s
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Old 28th November 2007, 07:35 AM   #35
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Yeah...those brain cancer cases don't count because you have now determined that brain cancer is self-limiting and the MD Anderson Cancer Clinic at the University of Texas is another "homeopathic clinic" that is not trustworthy. What was I thinking?

And the COPD study...the worst that Orac had to say about it was that the study didn't mention homeopathy in the title of the article and that he was personally shocked that this study made it past the IRB. Heck, Orac wouldn't want people to receive safe and effective treatment IF that treatment was a homeopathic medicine.

Do you people know what you're saying and that this is a record of it? Squirm squirm.
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Old 28th November 2007, 07:46 AM   #36
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No, I think the worst Orac had to say about the study was that it was flawed because it could be demonstrated that the treatment and placebo groups were not equivalent. He also had some comments on the ethics of treating intubated patients in an intensive care unit with magic water.

At no point have you ever actually addressed those criticisms. You have stated that the criticisms are invalid, but you have never explained why.
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Old 28th November 2007, 07:50 AM   #37
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Oh, if you do have a reply, you might want to put it on the other thread...my apologies for going off topic on this one....
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Old 28th November 2007, 08:29 AM   #38
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DUllman - I replied to you on the other thread.
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Old 28th November 2007, 10:27 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by JamesGully View Post
Yeah...those brain cancer cases don't count because you have now determined that brain cancer is self-limiting and the MD Anderson Cancer Clinic at the University of Texas is another "homeopathic clinic" that is not trustworthy. What was I thinking?

And the COPD study...the worst that Orac had to say about it was that the study didn't mention homeopathy in the title of the article and that he was personally shocked that this study made it past the IRB. Heck, Orac wouldn't want people to receive safe and effective treatment IF that treatment was a homeopathic medicine.

Do you people know what you're saying and that this is a record of it? Squirm squirm.
Dana, the really odd thing about the brain cancer paper is how little detail it gives about the patients. It's almost a throwaway comment that they 'cured' 90% of the glioma patients. To spend a whole paper in a second-rank journal going through a load of lab stuff when you've just cured brain cancer in 90% of patients seems strange. Do you know how secure the diagnoses were;

"Diagnoses were based on radiology and/or histopathology"

That is a very odd "and/or".

I think we need the input of some actual medics on this.
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Old 28th November 2007, 10:29 AM   #40
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I suppose I ought to point out that this was not an "ultramolecular" preparation so will have contained real amounts of the chemical agents, but even so a 90% "cure" of cancer is a striking claim.
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