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-   -   Roe v. Wade overturned -- this is some BS (https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359834)

smartcooky 18th October 2022 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13926664)
As in pre-Roe America, this is further proof that when abortion is made unavailable to women, they will get them anyway. It just forces them to break the law. Women will not go back to allowing others to control their bodies and telling them they must give birth.


100%. The real difference here is that medication abortions are much easier and safer than the highly risky back-alley types that went on pre-Roe.

ZiprHead 18th October 2022 01:54 PM

This is quite a powerful commercial.

Stacyhs 18th October 2022 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13926677)
100%. The real difference here is that medication abortions are much easier and safer than the highly risky back-alley types that went on pre-Roe.

Medication abortions can only be done up to a certain time: 70 days (10 weeks) from date of last period; so essentially 8 weeks gestation. As previously said, some women, especially girls, don't even know they're pregnant by then.

TheGoldcountry 18th October 2022 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZiprHead (Post 13926741)

Oh, I can't wait for the "rational skeptics" to tell us why this will never happen.

Stacyhs 18th October 2022 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZiprHead (Post 13926741)

Yes, it is. And it's plausible it could happen.

Quote:

Now that the Supreme Court has rescinded the constitutional right to a legal abortion in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization, the story of Shirley Wheeler, who had an illegal abortion in Florida in 1970, is even more poignant. Wheeler’s story, which is featured in the new season of Slate’s Slow Burn podcast, took place nearly three years before Roe v. Wade legalized abortion at the federal level in 1973 — at a time when abortion’s legality was dictated by an uneven patchwork of different state laws.

Wheeler’s arrest, prosecution, conviction and sentencing over 50 years ago in a state with a restrictive abortion law is an important story to remember now that millions of women across America are again facing similar barriers.

When the 22-year-old Wheeler learned that she was pregnant in 1970, she was determined to avoid the fate she had suffered four years earlier. In 1966, she got pregnant after being raped by two youths. Without the means to obtain an abortion, she was forced to give birth to a son, whom she relinquished to relatives in North Carolina, her home state, to raise. When she became pregnant again in 1970 after moving to Florida, she sought an abortion — even though this time she was in a committed relationship with the father. As she later recalled, “I chose not to bring another child into this world that I couldn’t afford to take care of.”
Quote:

Strapped for cash and initially unable to scrape together the $300 needed for an illegal abortion in Florida, Wheeler and her boyfriend could not take action until an income tax refund fortuitously came through. After her first visit to an illegal practitioner failed to terminate the pregnancy, a second attempt worked, although it caused her to hemorrhage and nearly killed her.

Shortly after Wheeler received emergency medical care at a hospital to stop the bleeding, police came to her home to arrest her. She spent several days in jail, where she was shown pictures of fetuses. She recalled the jailhouse doctor diagnosing her with vertigo, “and then he cussed me out.” Wheeler was indicted on a charge of aborting a “quick” fetus, although she maintained she had not felt fetal movement.
Quote:

...the Florida judge convicted Wheeler of manslaughter and sentenced her to two years of probation that included humiliating stipulations undoubtedly designed to police her sexuality. She was not allowed, for example, to enter a bar or to stay out all night.

In a more dramatic attempt by the state to properly channel Wheeler’s sexual activity, she was given one week to leave the state of Florida unless she married her boyfriend, 23-year old Robert Wheeler.
Looks like FL hasn't changed much thanks to people like Ron DeSantis.

Leumas 18th October 2022 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZiprHead (Post 13926741)


yup... as I said just a few posts back

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leumas (Post 13926675)
Yes... this is just going to start yet another illicit marketing... and then they will start a whole new enforcement body to fight a war on it.... the net result is a whole new cadre of millionaire thugs and brigands and their associated minions and cronies in politics and policing bodies... e.g. Prohibition and War On Drugs etc. etc.... ironically also instigated and created by christian ZEALOTS.


Leumas 18th October 2022 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13926750)
Yes, it is. And it's plausible it could happen.

It is happening in Afghanistan and Iran and Saudi Arabia et al and Uganda et al... and that is what the Christian Nationalists want to achieve here and they are almost done achieving it.

bruto 18th October 2022 08:35 PM

While on the subject of TV spots, there's this one too (embedded in article).

Stacyhs 18th October 2022 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 13926937)
While on the subject of TV spots, there's this one too (embedded in article).

But, but, but....that's just an outlier and it's perfectly OK with some people!:eye-poppi

smartcooky 19th October 2022 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZiprHead (Post 13926741)

Not just powerful, but a portent of the future

A women in Nebraska has already been arrested and charged for helping her daughter get an abortion.

https://npr.org/2022/08/10/111671674...ve-an-abortion

If the GOP scumbags get their way, arresting women who get abortions WILL become a reality.

smartcooky 19th October 2022 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13926746)
Medication abortions can only be done up to a certain time: 70 days (10 weeks) from date of last period; so essentially 8 weeks gestation. As previously said, some women, especially girls, don't even know they're pregnant by then.

OK Stacy - this prompts me to change my mind about what I am about to post. Its something I was considering posting earlier in this thread, but I had decided not to do so. I have reflected on this decision you have prompted me to change my mind.

I have a very good friend (younger sister of a girl I knew in my youth) who works in a hospital in a state near DC. We were chatting on the phone a week or so ago about Roe v Wade and the current situation in her state (abortion is illegal there with very few exceptions). She sent me the text of a home-printed pamphlet she (covertly) gives out to people who ask her about abortion. When I say "covertly", I mean she never hands it to them personally, but she finds out where they live and posts it to them.

Here is the text of that pamphlet which gives advice, and outlines some necessary precautions to any young girl and/or her parents who are, or would be, seeking to travel out of state either for abortion options or looking to obtain a medication abortion. I have reworded some parts and reformatted the text to make it a little clearer. The pamphlet has a list of clinics in nearby states (with phone numbers and other contact details) who perform abortions, as well as doctors in those states who will supply abortion pills and explain how to use them, but I have left those out.

* * * * * * *
In certain states (and Virginia is one of them) if you are pregnant and considering or seeking to abort the fetus, either by a clinical abortion or using pregnancy termination medication, you will be considered as, and treated like a criminal. Therefore, you need to start taking some of the same precautions against getting caught that criminals do!

CHECK FREQUENTLY
If you are sexually active, and even if you use physical or medical protection, check your pregnancy status frequently. You have limited time between falling pregnant and showing clinical signs. Knowledge is power; the earlier you find out, the more time you have to weigh up your options, so be very disciplined about testing frequently.

BE DECISIVE
If you find you are pregnant, or if you are a mom and your daughter tell you she is pregnant, do not procrastinate. Make your abortion decision early. You can always change your mind later right up the point where you walk into the clinic, but if you take too long making the decision, you could seriously curtail you options.

KEEP IT ON THE DOWN-LOW
Do not tell anyone you are pregnant. Not neighbors, not friends, not even extended family. The fewer people who know, the better.
Do not consult your own doctor at all. Even though he/she might be sympathetic and pro-abortion rights, legislatures in some states are already trying to pass laws that would allow authorities to subpoena/seize your medical records.

IMMEDIATELY REDUCE YOUR DIGITAL FOOTPRINT TO HELP CONCEAL YOUR WHEREABOUTS
Do not use ANY social media apps, text apps or any apps that involve written messaging to communicate about the pregnancy. Instead, use the phone app to communicate verbally. This way, even if police seize your phones, they will only be able to see that you talked, but not what you said to each other. Even better, buy burners and use them for any communication about abortion and pregnancy.
Do not take your personal phones or devices with you. They can be tracked, and when you make calls, investigators can find out where you called from.
Do not search online for sources or information using your own devices.
Do not telephone or message any out-of-state abortion clinics looking for information.
Do not call any phone belonging to family members from your burner or you will be leaving a trace on the family member's phone.

Instead, travel out of state without telling anyone where you are going and make enquiries and arrangements personally and directly, perhaps using an internet cafe (but do not log in to any websites using your regular login credentials) and definitely do not check your emails.

Destroy your burners as soon as arrangements are made, after the abortion has been carried out and before you return to your home state.

USE CASH FOR EVERYTHING
Literally every payment you make with a credit card, check card or bank card puts you at the location, at that time, where you bought what you bought. Filling up at a gas station across the border and paying with a credit card puts you right there in that gas station on that date and time.

PERIOD TRACKERS
Do not under ANY circumstances use "period tracker" apps. If you have been using one, delete it from your phone immediately. If prosecutors come to suspect you have had or are trying to have an abortion, they will try to seize your phones to examine the app data in order to determine if you are pregnant. Some state legislatures are already planning legislation to allow their prosecutors to subpoena an app developer's records.

NO FLYING
Do not travel by air unless there is no other option. Paying with cash means you will have to show recent (less than 6 months old) government-issued photo ID. Paying for flights with cash could make you subject to additional screening. There are also passenger manifests and records, and you will most certainly be seen on airport surveillance cameras.



It is an indictment of our society that people need to go to such lengths as these to be able to exercise their human rights, but unfortunately, that is the "post-Roe" America we are now living in.

cosmicaug 19th October 2022 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13924149)

Sure, but it pwned teh libs so it's all good.

Leumas 19th October 2022 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZiprHead (Post 13926741)


Here is some good commentary on it that I like a lot.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Darat 19th October 2022 12:53 PM

Mod WarningThread is not about the economy. Moved a bunch of posts to AAH for being off topic. Feel free to repost any of them into a new thread or one in which the topic is the USA economy.
Responding to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By:Darat

Hercules56 19th October 2022 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13926983)
Not just powerful, but a portent of the future

A women in Nebraska has already been arrested and charged for helping her daughter get an abortion.

https://npr.org/2022/08/10/111671674...ve-an-abortion

If the GOP scumbags get their way, arresting AND prosecuting women who get abortions WILL become a reality.

Fixed that for ya. Its what they want!!!

Leumas 19th October 2022 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leumas (Post 13841000)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upchurch (Post 13840958)
Oh, no. Trump deserves all the blame for this one.

Actually I blame the democrats who have had many opportunities to make it law and failed to do it.


And so does this guy... his comments are spot on...

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Leumas 19th October 2022 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hercules56 (Post 13927458)
Fixed that for ya. Its what they want!!!

They also want this...
Christian Nationalism: A Biblical Guide for Taking Dominion and Discipling Nations
Quote:

Christian Nationalism is a spiritual, political, and cultural movement comprised of Christians who are working to build a parallel Christian society grounded in a Biblical worldview. This book is a guide for Christians to take dominion and disciple their families, churches, and all nations for the glory of Jesus Christ, our King.
And here is a biblical view on women...
  • Deuteronomy 22:20-21 ... the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel......stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house.
  • Leviticus 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.
  • Deuteronomy 25:11-12 When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets; then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall have no pity.
And they are carrying out a CRUSADE.

And I have been warning against it for YEARS...


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

shemp 23rd October 2022 11:47 AM

Trump Threatens Journalists With Prison Rape in Bizarre Rant About Supreme Court Leaker: If They Don’t Give Them Up, They’ll Be ‘The Bride of Another Prisoner’

Quote:

Former President Donald Trump threatened prison rape as he demanded the federal government pressure journalists who report leaks to the media.

During his rally speech in Robstown, TX on Saturday night, the former president complained about media leakers as he told the audience “they leak all over the place, even on the Supreme Court.” Of course, Trump was referring to Politico obtaining a leaked Supreme Court majority opinion draft foreshadowing the overturn of Roe V. Wade.

“You have to find the leaker,” Trump demanded. He then offered his take on how news outlets should be threatened with jail time and coerced into giving up their sources under the pretext of “national security.”

They don’t want to mention this because I think it’s so terrible. You take the writer because you’re never gonna find another, going through phone records. It’s been a long time. You take the writer and/or the publisher of the paper, and you say ‘Who is the leaker? National security.’ And they say ‘We’re not gonna tell you.’ They say ‘That’s okay, you’re going to jail.’ And when this person realizes he’s going to be the bride of another prisoner very shortly, he will say ‘I’d very much like to tell you exactly who that leaker is!’

Stacyhs 23rd October 2022 11:58 AM

I think the only Bill of Rights that Trump accepts are the 5th and the 2nd.

Jailing journalists is what happens in countries with authoritarian leaders.

RecoveringYuppy 23rd October 2022 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13926993)
In certain states (and Virginia is one of them) if you are pregnant and considering or seeking to abort the fetus, either by a clinical abortion or using pregnancy termination medication, you will be considered as, and treated like a criminal. Therefore, you need to start taking some of the same precautions against getting caught that criminals do!

Is this referring to the state of Virginia in the US? Citation please?

All sources I can find say Virginia is consistent with Roe V Wade but has not adopted a law codifying that. They recently removed unnecessary restrictions on abortion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Virginia
https://www.abortionfinder.org/abort...on-in-virginia
https://reproductiverights.org/maps/...A7%2018.2-71.1.

ETA: Map showing which states have or are expected to ban or restrict abortion

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...oe-v-wade.html

Hopefully, someone has Virginia and West Virginia confused but, politically at least, that's a pretty big mistake.

Bob001 28th October 2022 01:50 AM

Pictures of fetal tissue in earliest stages of pregnancy, including the sixth week when "fetal heartbeat" is purportedly accessible.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...bortion-tissue

Stacyhs 28th October 2022 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13932697)
Pictures of fetal tissue in earliest stages of pregnancy, including the sixth week when "fetal heartbeat" is purportedly accessible.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...bortion-tissue

Those photos are fascinating. That's not a 'baby' except to those who think with their emotions rather than their head.

Hercules56 28th October 2022 04:14 PM

I don't have a problem with limiting abortion to the point of viability, which is after the 25th week. After that I'd only allow it if the child will not live long, will have a terrible disfigurement, or to save the life of the mother.

I believe overturning Roe was a very immoral decision as it removed a right that women had enjoyed for decades. But sadly, from a purely Constitutional POV I believe it was the correct decision as the Constitution says nothing about medical rights. Basically Roe was the court legislating from the bench.

smartcooky 28th October 2022 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13929623)
Is this referring to the state of Virginia in the US? Citation please?

All sources I can find say Virginia is consistent with Roe V Wade but has not adopted a law codifying that. They recently removed unnecessary restrictions on abortion.

Yeah, that's my bad. She had "W Virginia" on her pamphlet, but I dropped the "W" during transcription.

smartcooky 28th October 2022 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hercules56 (Post 13933444)
I don't have a problem with limiting abortion to the point of viability, which is after the 25th week. After that I'd only allow it if the child will not live long, will have a terrible disfigurement, or to save the life of the mother.

I believe overturning Roe was a very immoral decision as it removed a right that women had enjoyed for decades. But sadly, from a purely Constitutional POV I believe it was the correct decision as the Constitution says nothing about medical rights. Basically Roe was the court legislating from the bench.

The US Constitution may be silent on abortion, but it is also silent on the on whether a fetus or a zygote is a person. The whole thing should not even be an issue to be determined by courts

A zygote is not a human, it has no rights... and nor is a fetus. Abortion is not a legal issue, or a constitutional issue, is a human rights issue, and there is only ONE human involved in each case... the mother.

Stacyhs 28th October 2022 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hercules56 (Post 13933444)
I don't have a problem with limiting abortion to the point of viability, which is after the 25th week. After that I'd only allow it if the child will not live long, will have a terrible disfigurement, or to save the life of the mother.

I believe overturning Roe was a very immoral decision as it removed a right that women had enjoyed for decades. But sadly, from a purely Constitutional POV I believe it was the correct decision as the Constitution says nothing about medical rights. Basically Roe was the court legislating from the bench.

No...it was the Court saying the states were violating a woman's right to privacy including her medical privacy.

Stacyhs 28th October 2022 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13933490)
The US Constitution may be silent on abortion, but it is also silent on the on whether a fetus or a zygote is a person. The whole thing should not even be an issue to be determined by courts

A zygote is not a human, it has no rights... and nor is a fetus. Abortion is not a legal issue, or a constitutional issue, is a human rights issue, and there is only ONE human involved in each case... the mother.

Really? Are you seriously arguing that this


http://www.internationalskeptics.com...c8d67f0df8.jpg

does not have the same 'human' rights as this?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...c8dbec3c83.jpg

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

theprestige 28th October 2022 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13933490)
The US Constitution may be silent on abortion, but it is also silent on the on whether a fetus or a zygote is a person. The whole thing should not even be an issue to be determined by courts

A zygote is not a human, it has no rights... and nor is a fetus. Abortion is not a legal issue, or a constitutional issue, is a human rights issue, and there is only ONE human involved in each case... the mother.

Okay then. When does a fetus cross tne line and become a human with human rights? At birth? Then say so openly and take your chances with voters. Some time before birth? Then when, exactly?

RecoveringYuppy 28th October 2022 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13933484)
Yeah, that's my bad. She had "W Virginia" on her pamphlet, but I dropped the "W" during transcription.

Thanks for clarifying that. Unfortunately, your friend is making a lot of mistakes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13926993)
She sent me the text of a home-printed pamphlet she (covertly) gives out to people who ask her about abortion. When I say "covertly", I mean she never hands it to them personally, but she finds out where they live and posts it to them.

This is bad. An anonymous pamphlet full of misinformation showing up in your mailbox shortly after you get pregnant is creepy. And the pamphlet is full of alarmist misinformation and very bad advice. Especially the part about not trusting even your own doctor.

There is absolutely no need for your friend to be covert in nearly every US state. Even the few states (TX for example) that make me say "nearly" are somewhat hypothetical at this point. Your friend does not need to invade the persons privacy by getting their address, they can just hand it to them.

But they need a better pamphlet.
Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13926993)
In certain states (and West [per your correct] Virginia is one of them) if you are pregnant and considering or seeking to abort the fetus, either by a clinical abortion or using pregnancy termination medication, you will be considered as, and treated like a criminal.

Not so. I know of no abortion ban that targets the abortion seeker, they only target the providers (and TX may go after "facilitators" but we don't know what that will cover yet). There was big news earlier this year when Louisiana tried to target the abortion seeker and was shot down by a coalition of pro-choice and right to life objectors. There was news about arrests of abortion seekers but those arrests were contrary to law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13926993)
Do not tell anyone you are pregnant. Not neighbors, not friends, not even extended family. The fewer people who know, the better.
Do not consult your own doctor at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13926993)
Instead, travel out of state without telling anyone where you are going and make enquiries and arrangements personally and directly, perhaps using an internet cafe (but do not log in to any websites using your regular login credentials) and definitely do not check your emails.

This advice is positively harmful. All the further advice about going off grid and using burner phones is, at best, a waste of time and worry, at worst, scary alarmism that could lead to very bad decisions. Even in Texas this is bad advice for the abortion seeker. Some of this may, and I repeat may, be useful to so called "facilitators" but we don't yet know what that's going to entail.

This is wrong for the reason I already mentioned: The seeker is not the criminal. But it's also wrong because there are no laws targeting traveling out of state to get an abortion.

Some links to support all this follow and I can find more:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/24/u...avel-bans.html
https://mountainstatespotlight.org/2...ban-explained/
https://www.wholewomanshealth.com/ab...AaAlySEALw_wcB
https://www.grid.news/story/politics...-for-abortion/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Louisiana

There are some gray areas, especially in Texas, but your friend is nowhere near Texas apparently so I'm not going to muddy things with those gray areas here. Near where your friend lives, abortion seekers should freely plan their abortion the most expedient way possible and seek help from any person they like. This applies in legal and illegal states.

smartcooky 28th October 2022 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13933549)
Thanks for clarifying that. Unfortunately, your friend is making a lot of mistakes.

No, she isn't

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13933549)
This is bad.

No, it isn't

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13933549)
An anonymous pamphlet full of misinformation showing up in your mailbox shortly after you get pregnant is creepy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13933549)
There is absolutely no need for your friend to be covert in nearly every US state. Even the few states (TX for example) that make me say "nearly" are somewhat hypothetical at this point. Your friend does not need to invade the persons privacy by getting their address, they can just hand it to them.

Wrong. Its not anonymous and there is no misinformation. She only gives this information to those who directly ask her for advice. She posts the pamphlet rather that giving it to them personally, because if she is caught giving ANY pro-abortion advice, she could lose her job. This is not paranoia... nurses she knows personally at other hospitals have already been fired for advising women how to get an abortion in another state and/or where and how to obtain pregnancy termination medication.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13933549)
And the pamphlet is full of alarmist misinformation and very bad advice.

Wrong. None of that information is alarmist, at all. There have already been cases of people assisting someone to get an abortion being prosecuted. In Nebraska, a women was prosecuted for helping her own daughter get an abortion.

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/10/11167...ve-an-abortion

The pregnant 10 year old girl raped by a relative in Ohio was taken to Indiana for an abortion because that doctor (Caitlyn Bernard) was afraid she would have been prosecuted if she had carried out the abortion in Ohio.

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/...ky/7770227001/

https://www.webmd.com/women/news/202...-abortion-care

FFS, why the hell do you think abortion clinics are closing down in anti-abortion states?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13933549)
Especially the part about not trusting even your own doctor.

A strawman. This was neither suggested nor implied. Its the state governments that cannot be trusted.

https://www.statnews.com/2022/06/24/...ealth-records/
HIPAA won’t protect you if prosecutors want your reproductive health records

If there’s a warrant, court order, or subpoena for the release of those medical records, then a clinic could be required to hand them over. And patients and providers may be made legally vulnerable by the enormous trail of health-related data we all generate through their devices every day.
https://healthitsecurity.com/news/ab...cy-protections
Abortion Restrictions Clash With HIPAA, Patient Privacy Protections
The experts suggested that law enforcement officials may be able to use a subpoena to obtain medical records relating to abortions.

Some state laws have designated patient-physician communications as inadmissible in legal proceedings.

“However, this privilege is not absolute, its scope varies greatly across states, and in many cases medical record information has been successfully used to substantiate a criminal charge, such as child abuse,” the article continued.

“Thus, there is substantial uncertainty about how courts will address assertions of physician-patient privilege relating to reproductive health care records.”

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13933549)
Not so. I know of no abortion ban that targets the abortion seeker, they only target the providers (and TX may go after "facilitators" but we don't know what that will cover yet). There was big news earlier this year when Louisiana tried to target the abortion seeker and was shot down by a coalition of pro-choice and right to life objectors. There was news about arrests of abortion seekers but those arrests were contrary to law.

1. There is no guarantee things will remain that way.

2. There have already been cases of abortion seekers being intimated by pro-life members of law enforcement, making threats and getting injunctions and seeking judicial intervention. They know that pregnancy is on a strict timeline, so anything they can do to delay action works to "run out the clock" for the abortion seeker so that abortion becomes no longer a viable option. Drunky McRapeface has already attempted to do exactly that!

https://www.aclu.org/news/reproducti...-abortion-case

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13933549)
This advice is positively harmful.

No, it isn't

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13933549)
All the further advice about going off grid and using burner phones is, at best, a waste of time and worry, at worst, scary alarmism that could lead to very bad decisions. Even in Texas this is bad advice for the abortion seeker. Some of this may, and I repeat may, be useful to so called "facilitators" but we don't yet know what that's going to entail.

This is wrong for the reason I already mentioned: The seeker is not the criminal. But it's also wrong because there are no laws targeting traveling out of state to get an abortion.

If you think it will stay that way if the pro-lifers keep getting their way, you are living in a land of make-believe.

Some state legislatures are already looking at making ANY kind of medical or mechanical contraception illegal,

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/researc...-birth-control

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...n-state-lines/

Some are working to make it illegals to cross state lines for an abortion...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...n-state-lines/

.. criminalizing all aspects of abortion and conducting criminal investigations into miscarriages!

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/a...-crime/661420/

Before last week, women attempting to have their pregnancies terminated in states hostile to abortion rights already faced a litany of obstacles: lengthy drives, waiting periods, mandated counseling, throngs of volatile protesters. Now they face a new reality. Although much is still unknown about how abortion bans will be enforced, we have arrived at a time when abortions—and even other pregnancy losses—might be investigated as potential crimes. In many states across post-Roe America, expect to see women treated like criminals.

Reproductive-rights experts told me that in the near future, they expect to see more criminal investigations and arrests of women who induce their own abortions, as well as those who lose pregnancies through miscarriage and stillbirth.

smartcooky 28th October 2022 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13933534)
Really? Are you seriously arguing that this


http://www.internationalskeptics.com...c8d67f0df8.jpg

does not have the same 'human' rights as this?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...c8dbec3c83.jpg

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

:thumbsup:

Well Stacy, there are some Americans who would argue that the stuff in the petrie dish is white, so it already has more human rights than the woman of colour in the photo.:jaw-dropp:D

RecoveringYuppy 28th October 2022 09:19 PM

I would suggest people read the links I included.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13933578)
If you think it will stay that way if the pro-lifers keep getting their way, you are living in a land of make-believe.

I didn't say anything about what the future may hold. The advice your friend is passing around now is wrong for now. Especially where she lives.

And the pamphlet you cited did say not to confide in your doctor.

ETA: Thanks for clarifying why and to who she is distributing this to. That at least eliminates the creepiness and privacy factor, but the advice is still all wrong for most of the country especially near DC.

Stacyhs 28th October 2022 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13933547)
Okay then. When does a fetus cross tne line and become a human with human rights? At birth? Then say so openly and take your chances with voters. Some time before birth? Then when, exactly?

We have to go to anti-choice people because they claim to know the answers to those questions. They're not based on science but on their religious beliefs and/or personal opinions but, hey-ho...if it's good enough for them, apparently it should be good enough for us, too. Even if we don't think so.

Stacyhs 28th October 2022 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13933579)
:thumbsup:

Well Stacy, there are some Americans who would argue that the stuff in the petrie peach tree dish is white, so it already has more human rights than the woman of colour in the photo.:jaw-dropp:D

FTFY! :D

psionl0 28th October 2022 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13933578)
No, she isn't

No, it isn't

Wrong. Its not anonymous and there is no misinformation. She only gives this information to those who directly ask her for advice. She posts the pamphlet rather that giving it to them personally, because if she is caught giving ANY pro-abortion advice, she could lose her job. This is not paranoia... nurses she knows personally at other hospitals have already been fired for advising women how to get an abortion in another state and/or where and how to obtain pregnancy termination medication.

Wrong. None of that information is alarmist, at all. There have already been cases of people assisting someone to get an abortion being prosecuted. In Nebraska, a women was prosecuted for helping her own daughter get an abortion.

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/10/11167...ve-an-abortion

The pregnant 10 year old girl raped by a relative in Ohio was taken to Indiana for an abortion because that doctor (Caitlyn Bernard) was afraid she would have been prosecuted if she had carried out the abortion in Ohio.

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/...ky/7770227001/

https://www.webmd.com/women/news/202...-abortion-care

FFS, why the hell do you think abortion clinics are closing down in anti-abortion states?

A strawman. This was neither suggested nor implied. Its the state governments that cannot be trusted.

https://www.statnews.com/2022/06/24/...ealth-records/
HIPAA won’t protect you if prosecutors want your reproductive health records

If there’s a warrant, court order, or subpoena for the release of those medical records, then a clinic could be required to hand them over. And patients and providers may be made legally vulnerable by the enormous trail of health-related data we all generate through their devices every day.
https://healthitsecurity.com/news/ab...cy-protections
Abortion Restrictions Clash With HIPAA, Patient Privacy Protections
The experts suggested that law enforcement officials may be able to use a subpoena to obtain medical records relating to abortions.

Some state laws have designated patient-physician communications as inadmissible in legal proceedings.

“However, this privilege is not absolute, its scope varies greatly across states, and in many cases medical record information has been successfully used to substantiate a criminal charge, such as child abuse,” the article continued.

“Thus, there is substantial uncertainty about how courts will address assertions of physician-patient privilege relating to reproductive health care records.”

1. There is no guarantee things will remain that way.

2. There have already been cases of abortion seekers being intimated by pro-life members of law enforcement, making threats and getting injunctions and seeking judicial intervention. They know that pregnancy is on a strict timeline, so anything they can do to delay action works to "run out the clock" for the abortion seeker so that abortion becomes no longer a viable option. Drunky McRapeface has already attempted to do exactly that!

https://www.aclu.org/news/reproducti...-abortion-case

No, it isn't

If you think it will stay that way if the pro-lifers keep getting their way, you are living in a land of make-believe.

Some state legislatures are already looking at making ANY kind of medical or mechanical contraception illegal,

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/researc...-birth-control

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...n-state-lines/

Some are working to make it illegals to cross state lines for an abortion...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...n-state-lines/

.. criminalizing all aspects of abortion and conducting criminal investigations into miscarriages!

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/a...-crime/661420/

Before last week, women attempting to have their pregnancies terminated in states hostile to abortion rights already faced a litany of obstacles: lengthy drives, waiting periods, mandated counseling, throngs of volatile protesters. Now they face a new reality. Although much is still unknown about how abortion bans will be enforced, we have arrived at a time when abortions—and even other pregnancy losses—might be investigated as potential crimes. In many states across post-Roe America, expect to see women treated like criminals.

Reproductive-rights experts told me that in the near future, they expect to see more criminal investigations and arrests of women who induce their own abortions, as well as those who lose pregnancies through miscarriage and stillbirth.

I agree with this post entirely.

cosmicaug 29th October 2022 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13933549)
There is absolutely no need for your friend to be covert in nearly every US state. Even the few states (TX for example) that make me say "nearly" are somewhat hypothetical at this point. Your friend does not need to invade the persons privacy by getting their address, they can just hand it to them.

I would not go that far (specially in Texas). In the Lizelle Herrera case in TX earlier this year, the most likely reporter leading to that arrest would have to have been a healthcare worker (I'm not sure if particular details on that case are known —the case was eventually dropped after much public attention). It's hard to get away from that fact and its unfortunate implications.

And certainly, whether on the basis of these new laws or because of on the grounds of older laws on the books (which are probably more likely to be enforced in the current climate), prosecutions along the lines of fetal death or endangerment do happen.

RecoveringYuppy 29th October 2022 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicaug (Post 13933818)
I would not go that far (specially in Texas). In the Lizelle Herrera case in TX earlier this year, the most likely reporter leading to that arrest would have to have been a healthcare worker (I'm not sure if particular details on that case are known —the case was eventually dropped after much public attention). It's hard to get away from that fact and its unfortunate implications.

Not sure what you mean here, are you disputing my choice of words "somewhat hypothetical"? I won't disagree if that is what you mean. I called out TX as being the exception and it's not yet clear what kind of exception it is. We don't really know how bad the new law in TX might be yet. Bottom line is TX is not typical. Most people should not be planning based on TX.

And note that in the case I was discussing the health care worker was on the opposite side of the issue. The health care worker in the case I talked about was worried about retribution for aiding an abortion. Legal repercussions are not typical either. But smartcooky pointed out his friend was worried about job repercussions and that is a valid concern. In West Virginia the simplest way to safely aid a person in obtaining an out of state abortion is to tell them about the link I provided for that purpose and not to discourage from simply googling for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicaug (Post 13933818)
And certainly, whether on the basis of these new laws or because of on the grounds of older laws on the books (which are probably more likely to be enforced in the current climate), prosecutions along the lines of fetal death or endangerment do happen.

OK. I didn't dispute that, I even included examples of it. Thankfully we are still in a world where these are the exception rather than the rule and people should plan accordingly. People should plan now based on current reality.

Personally I'm optimistic that the dystopian world of smartcooky's friends pamphlet will never be typical. But I'm pessimistic that the country will come closer to it in the short run.

smartcooky 29th October 2022 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicaug (Post 13933818)
I would not go that far (specially in Texas). In the Lizelle Herrera case in TX earlier this year, the most likely reporter leading to that arrest would have to have been a healthcare worker (I'm not sure if particular details on that case are known —the case was eventually dropped after much public attention). It's hard to get away from that fact and its unfortunate implications.

And certainly, whether on the basis of these new laws or because of on the grounds of older laws on the books (which are probably more likely to be enforced in the current climate), prosecutions along the lines of fetal death or endangerment do happen.

And remember, the real important thing to realize here is that pregnancy is on a strict timeline. It may not be legal for a woman who is attempting to get an abortion to be arrested, but that does not mean the she, or members of her support network such as her family, friends and doctor can't be. Pro-lifers have a history of showing little if any regard for the law - the bombing and arson of clinics and the murder of abortion providers shows this to be a fact. If anyone thinks that pro-life law enforcement who find out that a woman is seeking an abortion won't illegally arrest her or, as in the case of Drunky McRapeface I mentioned earlier, will use the courts to delay her in an attempt to run out the clock, they are dreaming! These sorts of things have already happened.

smartcooky 29th October 2022 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13933834)
Thankfully we are still in a world where these are the exception rather than the rule and people should plan accordingly. People should plan now based on current reality.

Personally I'm optimistic that the dystopian world of smartcooky's friends pamphlet will never be typical. But I'm pessimistic that the country will come closer to it in the short run.

Too late... we've already passed that point!

https://www.freepress.net/blog/faceb...aving-abortion
Since the Supreme Court decision came down, we’ve been warning of the dangers hidden in the massive amounts of sensitive and personal data collected and retained by platforms like Facebook — and how it could be weaponized against people seeking reproductive health care.

Now we are seeing this threat turn into a grim reality.


In June, before Roe was overturned, Facebook gave the police department in Norfolk, Nebraska, access to private messages that Jessica Burgess and her 17-year-old daughter shared about how to obtain abortion pills. According to Motherboard, law enforcement sought information extending back to April 15. Burgess and her daughter have been charged with multiple felonies and misdemeanors, and the 17-year-old will be prosecuted as an adult.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ebraska-police
"....when local Nebraska police came knocking in June – before Roe v Wade was officially overturned – Facebook handed the user data of a mother and daughter facing criminal charges for allegedly carrying out an illegal abortion. Private messages between the two discussing how to obtain abortion pills were given to police by Facebook, according to the Lincoln Journal Star. The 17-year-old, reports say, was more than 20 weeks pregnant. In Nebraska, abortions are banned after 20 weeks of pregnancy. The teenager is now being tried as an adult."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ortion-arrest/
Calixtro Villarreal’s phone rang Saturday afternoon, about 48 hours after his client, Lizelle Herrera, was arrested and charged with murder — over what local authorities alleged was a “self-induced abortion.”

... and if you think Rep. Eric Swalwell's ad depicting a world where women get arrested for having an abortion is some kind of alarmist, far-fetched fan-fic, you need to revise that view. Be warned, this one is a real shocker (or should be)!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ion-roe-v-wade
Chelsea Becker was prosecuted for murder after her stillbirth and spent 16 months in jail!]

On 4 November 2019, TV stations across California blasted Chelsea Becker’s photo on their news editions. The “search was on” for a “troubled” 25-year-old woman wanted for the “murder of her unborn baby”, news anchors said, warning viewers not to approach if they spotted her but to call the authorities.

The next day, Becker was asleep at the home she was staying in when officers with the Hanford police department arrived.

The officer had a large automatic weapon pointed at me and a K-9”, Becker, now 28, recalled in a recent interview. “I walked out and surrendered.”

smartcooky 29th October 2022 12:53 PM

If anyone who thinks doctors being jailed for performing abortions is an exception, they'd be dead wrong.

https://www.kff.org/womens-health-po...tional-limits/
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tpxwzakx0t...ties.png?raw=1
And that map was May 2022--- before the scumbag GOP judges on SCOTUS overturned Roe v Wade. Its going to get worse before it gets better. Even in States where they might not be jailed, they could still be sued, have their licence to practise revoked, or if they are a staff doctor at a hospital, be fired.

Now I know some will nitpick that this map refers to gestational limits, but keep in mind that legislatures are trying to pass laws with ZERO tolerance, all abortions being banned from the moment of conception.


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