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-   -   Roe v. Wade overturned -- this is some BS (https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359834)

ponderingturtle 25th April 2023 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 14058709)
Under Texas law, using it to terminate an ectopic pregnancy is a non-abortion use (and thus automatically permitted), because terminating an ectopic pregnancy isn't an abortion. The definition in Texas law is quite clear on this point.

Unless it is a catholic hospital in which case they absolutely consider it an abortion. It's almost as if they defined abortion in their own way at odds with religious and medical doctrine to achieve the effect they want.

Up next spontaneous abortion is also not an abortion.

Stacyhs 25th April 2023 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle (Post 14058849)
Unless it is a catholic hospital in which case they absolutely consider it an abortion. It's almost as if they defined abortion in their own way at odds with religious and medical doctrine to achieve the effect they want.

Up next spontaneous abortion is also not an abortion.

Yeah, almost as if. :rolleyes:

Ziggurat 25th April 2023 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 14058791)
Legally, no. Medically, yes.

The legal definition is controlling when we're discussing what hospitals are allowed to do. Which we were.

Stacyhs 25th April 2023 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 14058709)
Yes.

Under Texas law, using it to terminate an ectopic pregnancy is a non-abortion use (and thus automatically permitted), because terminating an ectopic pregnancy isn't an abortion. The definition in Texas law is quite clear on this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 14058791)
Legally, no. Medically, yes. An abortion is a procedure to end a pregnancy whether by medication or surgical procedure.

Texas can call it whatever they want, but it's still an abortion. A rose, is a rose, is a rose, is a rose....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 14058918)
The legal definition is controlling when we're discussing what hospitals are allowed to do. Which we were.

No, "WE" were not discussing what hospitals are allowed to do. "WE" were discussing whether terminating an ectopic pregnancy is an abortion. Texas can legally define it however it wants to in order to legally skirt the fact that it is medically an abortion.

slyjoe 25th April 2023 03:58 PM

Next up: Pi=3.

Stacyhs 25th April 2023 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slyjoe (Post 14058969)
Next up: Pi=3.

Legally or mathematically?:D

JoeMorgue 25th April 2023 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 14058918)
The legal definition is controlling when we're discussing what hospitals are allowed to do. Which we were.

Horse ******* ****.

Republicans ban stuff they can't define all the time. Save me your selective outrage and your even more selective standards.

Ziggurat 25th April 2023 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 14058993)
Horse ******* ****.

Republicans ban stuff they can't define all the time. Save me your selective outrage and your even more selective standards.

It's not my standard, it's Texas's standard. I'm just describing it. Why does that offend you? And it's not a matter of what they can ban, it's a matter of what they did and didn't ban. They didn't ban terminating ectopic pregnancy. There is no ambiguity in the law about that. If you want to object to the law on other grounds, go ahead. The problem with methotrexate access is a real issue. But ectopic pregnancies? Nope. Texas is in the clear on that one.

bruto 25th April 2023 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 14058993)
Horse ******* ****.

Republicans ban stuff they can't define all the time. Save me your selective outrage and your even more selective standards.

Besides, as we're beginning to see at least anecdotally in places like Oklahoma, they don't have to ban, with its high risk of being overturned, if they make the law vague enough, the penalty stiff enough, and the financial and career damage even of winning a case dire enough.

Stacyhs 25th April 2023 10:53 PM

N. Dakota just passed one of the strictest abortion bans in the country which only allows abortion during the first six weeks and only in cases of incest and rape. Abortions in case of serious medical emergencies for the woman such as an ectopic pregnancy would be allowed.

A 10-year-old girl who is raped, and who would likely have no idea she was pregnant, would be forced to carry to term and give birth at one day past 6 weeks gestation. This is just plain monstrous child abuse. But these Republican
:rule10 can pat themselves on the back and tell each other what glorious pro-life "think of the children" Christians they are while making a child endure an ordeal she cannot comprehend and could literally and figuratively scar her for life.

I detest the lot of them.

catsmate 26th April 2023 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 14058982)
Legally or mathematically?:D

Ah, Indiana.

catsmate 26th April 2023 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 14059190)
N. Dakota just passed one of the strictest abortion bans in the country which only allows abortion during the first six weeks and only in cases of incest and rape. Abortions in case of serious medical emergencies for the woman such as an ectopic pregnancy would be allowed.

A 10-year-old girl who is raped, and who would likely have no idea she was pregnant, would be forced to carry to term and give birth at one day past 6 weeks gestation. This is just plain monstrous child abuse. But these Republican
:rule10 can pat themselves on the back and tell each other what glorious pro-life "think of the children" Christians they are while making a child endure an ordeal she cannot comprehend and could literally and figuratively scar her for life.

I detest the lot of them.

I note the maternal mortality rate in ND is five times that of California.

bruto 26th April 2023 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsmate (Post 14059277)
I note the maternal mortality rate in ND is five times that of California.

Not to dispute this, but do you have a source? Most of what I've seen is inconclusive but suggests the rate is pretty low, though a small initial population makes a meaningful figure difficult anyway. The CDC, for example, leaves this area blank for many states, and the raw maternal death figure includes any pregnant woman who dies, including by accident, Covid, and such.

I do note that as of 2019 at least, the infant mortality rate was the highest it's ever been, and showing a continuous increase.

catsmate 26th April 2023 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 14059448)
Not to dispute this, but do you have a source? Most of what I've seen is inconclusive but suggests the rate is pretty low, though a small initial population makes a meaningful figure difficult anyway. The CDC, for example, leaves this area blank for many states, and the raw maternal death figure includes any pregnant woman who dies, including by accident, Covid, and such.

I do note that as of 2019 at least, the infant mortality rate was the highest it's ever been, and showing a continuous increase.

Sure.
Maternal Mortality Rate by State
North Dakota 20.1 deaths per 100,000
California 4.0 deaths per 100,000

Horrifically 20.1 is actually good for USAia.... :boggled:
Louisiana sees 58.1.

bruto 26th April 2023 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsmate (Post 14059691)
Sure.
Maternal Mortality Rate by State
North Dakota 20.1 deaths per 100,000
California 4.0 deaths per 100,000

Horrifically 20.1 is actually good for USAia.... :boggled:
Louisiana sees 58.1.

Thanks. For some reason none of my searches came up with this, and they all seemed to track back the the CDC.

Nice to know I come from one of the three zero states.

catsmate 27th April 2023 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 14059937)
Thanks. For some reason none of my searches came up with this, and they all seemed to track back the the CDC.

Nice to know I come from one of the three zero states.

No problem, glad I could be of assistance.

d4m10n 27th April 2023 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 14059174)
Besides, as we're beginning to see at least anecdotally in places like Oklahoma, they don't have to ban, with its high risk of being overturned, if they make the law vague enough, the penalty stiff enough, and the financial and career damage even of winning a case dire enough.

Oklahoma has a total ban on elective abortion.

Tero 27th April 2023 05:18 AM

The Nebraska bill passed and the filibuster will not hold it

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireSt...tions-98525689

One senator was holding out for 12 weeks but will go for the 6 if 12 weeks does not get advanced. It is still possible that there are 2 republicans that will reconsider. The party wanted to show unity at this point. This will be either voted on by June or will once again end up in the 2024 session.

bruto 27th April 2023 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 14060200)
Oklahoma has a total ban on elective abortion.

Yes, and from what I've heard, it's so draconian that it seems some health care providers cannot safely decide what is elective and what is not, so they are denying or delaying care to those who need it. Note that cases not entirely clear are said to require consultation with the attorney general's office. I think that's crazy.

Suddenly 27th April 2023 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 14060306)
Note that cases not entirely clear are said to require consultation with the attorney general's office. I think that's crazy.

It's a common theme in a few areas of criminal law.

By defining crimes ambiguously and setting penalties extremely high the legislature can in effect move the judicial function from the courts to the executive. It no longer really matters whether a conviction would stand as much as it matters whether or not you get charged and what you are charged with.

bruto 27th April 2023 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suddenly (Post 14060327)
It's a common theme in a few areas of criminal law.

By defining crimes ambiguously and setting penalties extremely high the legislature can in effect move the judicial function from the courts to the executive. It no longer really matters whether a conviction would stand as much as it matters whether or not you get charged and what you are charged with.

The case of delegating medical opinion to an attorney general, though, I think constitutes an added level of criminal craziness.

Stacyhs 27th April 2023 02:19 PM

When the SC overturned R v W, who could have foreseen the Right wing extremist state legislatures would start passing such extreme and draconian bans/restrictions on abortion? :rolleyes:

Tero 27th April 2023 06:06 PM

nebraska bill is dead for a year
2 republicans did not vote
https://www.1011now.com/2023/04/27/h...inder-session/

It will reappear in 2024 but the politicians will face angry mobs in some districts. Capitol protests also.

catsmate 28th April 2023 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 14060575)
When the SC overturned R v W, who could have foreseen the Right wing extremist state legislatures would start passing such extreme and draconian bans/restrictions on abortion? :rolleyes:

Everyone with a working brain?

Tero 28th April 2023 04:28 AM

Nebraska state senator abstained. He is from Omaha and won by just 5% last time. He is thinking re-election 2026 by this vote.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/pol...ture-rcna81918

bruto 28th April 2023 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsmate (Post 14060859)
Everyone with a working brain?

There you go again, polluting the populist pond with insidious brainism.

Hercules56 28th April 2023 06:38 AM

https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/28/polit...ght/index.html

The Right really could ban most abortions nationwide using the Comstock Act. It's really a shame Democrats didn't kill bad laws like this when they had the chance. Although they really could use this threat to get lots of support to win back Congress.

Tero 28th April 2023 06:45 AM

Prediction
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/28/polit...ght/index.html
5th Circuit court will ban mailing of abortion pills.

Hercules56 28th April 2023 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tero (Post 14060933)
Prediction
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/28/polit...ght/index.html
5th Circuit court will ban mailing of abortion pills.

They could also conceivably ban the mailing of any specialty equipment used for abortions.

But Congress could easily kill Comstock through a Reconciliation bill. Only 51 votes needed in Senate.

Stacyhs 28th April 2023 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tero (Post 14060933)
Prediction
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/28/polit...ght/index.html
5th Circuit court will ban mailing of abortion pills.

Wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Orphia Nay 28th April 2023 05:27 PM

Quote:

Abortion bans in Nebraska and South Carolina fell short of advancing in close votes amid heated debates among Republicans, confounding conservatives who have dominated both legislatures and further exposing the chasm on the issue of abortion within the GOP.

In Nebraska, where abortion is banned after 20 weeks of pregnancy, an effort to ban abortion at about the sixth week of pregnancy fell one vote short of breaking a filibuster. Cheers erupted outside the legislative chamber as the last vote was cast, with opponents of the bill waving signs and chanting, “Whose house? Our house!”

In South Carolina, lawmakers voted 22-21 to shelve a near-total abortion ban for the rest of the year. Republican Sen. Sandy Senn criticized Majority Leader Shane Massey for repeatedly “taking us off a cliff on abortion.”
https://apnews.com/article/c78ec68b0...3f6e136ba3e045

Phew! That was close.

smartcooky 3rd May 2023 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay (Post 14061300)

...and Blue states are fighting back, especially against Red states like Idaho that have now made it illegal for their own citizens to leave their state to get an abortion in another state... yes, you read that correctly - Idaho Republicans are explicitly threatening to bring prosecutions against doctors in other states for providing abortions to Idaho residents while they're not in Idaho. In response, Washington and Minnesota state legislatures have passed bills protecting abortion seekers from other states and abortion providers in their own state from prosecutions by other states.

In a letter to the Idaho Governor, the Washington State Governor, Jay Inslee wrote "we will protect our providers and we will harbor and comfort your residents who seek health care services that are denied to them in Idaho. We will Harbor and comfort your residents who have to flee your state to come here to get health care that you have criminalized"

Governor Inslee has also signed legislation that blocks law their enforcement officials and courts from aiding any other State's abortion related legal investigation. It also blocks police and courts in Washington from assisting other states' investigations going after trans people, protects Washington doctors from professional disciplinary action if they provide care that is in violation of some other State's laws. He also signed legislation that says in Washington, the data from cell phone apps that can track your period can't be shared without you okaying it so they, cannot use that data or those apps as evidence in any prosecution related to abortion

Governor Inslee has also bought a stockpile of abortion pills for Washington. He signed legislation to assure that medication abortions stay legal and available in Washington even as Republicans try to ban them in every state in the country.

I have little doubt that, even if the ruling by Kacsmaryk (the nutjob federal judge in Texas) were not to be overturned, the governments of Blue states such as Washington will simply defy his ruling and will become the provider of mediation abortion drugs. What is the federal court going to to about it... arrest the Governor, or the members of the state legislature?

Anyway, Rachel Maddow sums it all up nicely here...

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Stacyhs 3rd May 2023 02:58 PM

Good for Gov. Inslee! Idaho has been a growing ground and haven for right-wing extremists and it's only getting worse.

kookbreaker 4th May 2023 04:41 AM

In PA, the Democrats have barely managed to get a majority in the state house, but my local rep had to resign after a sex scandal. So a special election is being held. To say the democrats are pushing hard would be an understatement and they Democratic candidate (Heather Boyd) is basically running on "if they get a majority they will ban abortion"* while the GOP candidate's TV ads don't even mention what party she represents, as well as nothing but undefined "common sense" as her platform. (The mailed GOP ads try to blame Boyd for inflation and I wonder how that works). But the pressure is on and I have gotten multiple calls reminding me to vote on may 16th as well as requests to volunteer.


* Somewhat unlikely as the Governor is a Democrat and would doubtless veto any abortion restrictions but the sentiment is there

cosmicaug 5th May 2023 06:30 PM

Ballot initiative in Florida. I imagine that if done right there's little that can be done to not have it pass. DeSantis is probably the most fascist governor in the US; but I'm not sure what kind of mischief he (and the FL GOP) can come up with to sabotage this.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/05/desantis-abortion-ban-initiative-00095486:

Quote:

Planned Parenthood is launching an effort to put abortion on the Florida ballot next year — setting the stage for a high-profile battle with Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis as he prepares to run for president.

The move comes three weeks after DeSantis pleased up-for-grabs evangelical Republicans by signing a six-week abortion ban into law.

The multi-million-dollar initiative, the details of which were confirmed to POLITICO ahead of an announcement next week, would roll back one of DeSantis’ signature policies by allowing abortion until a fetus is viable at about 24 weeks of pregnancy.

“Floridians know what is best for their own bodies and their own lives,” Sarah Standiford, national campaigns director for Planned Parenthood Action Fund, said in an interview Thursday. “People are ready to vote for reproductive freedom and to take back power from lawmakers who have literally gone against the will of the people.”

Standiford confirmed Planned Parenthood and partner organizations intend to spend millions of dollars as they seek to gather roughly 890,000 valid signatures by Feb. 1 across a state that has become increasingly conservative. By comparison, a 2024 ballot initiative to legalize marijuana has already raised $30 million.

The abortion-rights effort promises to keep the contentious issue top of mind during the presidential election, while likely energizing the state’s Democratic base. It also stands to have significant implications for the future of reproductive health care in the Sunshine State, which became a haven in the South for abortion access after the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade last year.

[...]

Stacyhs 5th May 2023 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicaug (Post 14066071)
Ballot initiative in Florida. I imagine that if done right there's little that can be done to not have it pass. DeSantis is probably the most fascist governor in the US; but I'm not sure what kind of mischief he (and the FL GOP) can come up with to sabotage this.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/05/desantis-abortion-ban-initiative-00095486:

From your link:

“Floridians know what is best for their own bodies and their own lives,” Sarah Standiford, national campaigns director for Planned Parenthood Action Fund, said in an interview Thursday.

According to De Santis and the GOP controlled state legislature, they know what's best for them.

bruto 5th May 2023 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 14066082)
From your link:

“Floridians know what is best for their own bodies and their own lives,” Sarah Standiford, national campaigns director for Planned Parenthood Action Fund, said in an interview Thursday.

According to De Santis and the GOP controlled state legislature, they know what's best for them.

Sarah is, unfortunately, under the illusion that Florida is a democracy.

Stacyhs 5th May 2023 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 14066128)
Sarah is, unfortunately, under the illusion that Florida is a democracy.

Sarah is also under the illusion that DeSantis and FL Republicans really give a crap what is best for women. What they do care about is how to stay in power.

Aridas 5th May 2023 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicaug (Post 14066071)
Ballot initiative in Florida. I imagine that if done right there's little that can be done to not have it pass. DeSantis is probably the most fascist governor in the US; but I'm not sure what kind of mischief he (and the FL GOP) can come up with to sabotage this.

You're not sure? I'd hazard a guess that they'd try to do something rather similar to it as they did to the ballot initiative to restore voting rights to ex felons. In that case, of particular note is that the Republican legislature pretty brazenly attached a BS poll tax to that, despite how overtly unconstitutional it seems to be. Pay back all your fines before you can vote! Nevermind that Florida doesn't seem to actually keep valid records on that front and what fines there are are frequently absurd from the start, so it's pretty much a recipe for mass miscarriages of justice and spitting upon the overwhelming will of the people. Given how unconstitutional it is, I don't think I saw any predictions about that course of action in advance. Thus, well, we're left with a heck of a lot of potential mischief that can be come up with so long as they're not reined in.

Armitage72 15th May 2023 02:05 PM

Y'all-qaeda performs an honor killing in Texas.

Texas woman killed by boyfriend after she got an abortion

Quote:

A man who didn’t want his girlfriend to get an abortion fatally shot her during a confrontation in a Dallas parking lot, police said.

Gabriella Gonzalez, 26, was with her boyfriend, 22-year-old Harold Thompson, on Wednesday when he tried to put her in a chokehold, according to an arrest warrant affidavit. She had returned the night before from Colorado, where she had gone to get an abortion, the document stated.

Surveillance video from the parking lot shows Gonzalez “shrugs him off,” police said, and the two continue walking. Thompson then pulls out a gun and shoots Gonzalez in the head. She falls to the ground and Thompson shoots her multiple times before running away, the affidavit said.


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