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-   -   Roe v. Wade overturned -- this is some BS (https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359834)

BobTheCoward 21st July 2022 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arayder (Post 13860285)
So, BobTheCoward, do you think it is murder to take a brain dead relative (with no living will) off life support?

No

Warp12 21st July 2022 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arayder (Post 13860285)
So, BobTheCoward, do you think it is murder to take a brain dead relative (with no living will) off life support?


Ridiculous. A brain dead relative is not going to develop into a fully capable person. Just dumb. I hope I missed some larger point.

arayder 21st July 2022 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arayder (Post 13860285)
So, BobTheCoward, do you think it is murder to take a brain dead relative (with no living will) off life support?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13860354)
No

Thanks for the answer.

What about a Christian Scientist family denying medical treatment for one of their children with a treatable condition which would likely be fatal if untreated?

arayder 21st July 2022 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13860376)
Ridiculous. A brain dead relative is not going to develop into a fully capable person. Just dumb. I hope I missed some larger point.

Yes, you are missing the point. . .and rudely so. I will carry on with BobThe Coward.

Warp12 21st July 2022 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arayder (Post 13860384)
Yes, you are missing the point. . .and rudely so. I will carry on with BobThe Coward.


What is the larger point?

BobTheCoward 21st July 2022 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arayder (Post 13860382)
Thanks for the answer.

What about a Christian Scientist family denying medical treatment for one of their children with a treatable condition which would likely be fatal if untreated?

No
I also don't think abortion is murder. Is your plan to just ask me a bunch of things that are not murder?

arayder 21st July 2022 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13860376)
Ridiculous. A brain dead relative is not going to develop into a fully capable person. Just dumb. I hope I missed some larger point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arayder (Post 13860382)
Thanks for the answer.

What about a Christian Scientist family denying medical treatment for one of their children with a treatable condition which would likely be fatal if untreated?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13860389)
No
I also don't think abortion is murder. Is your plan to just ask me a bunch of things that are not murder?

Bare with me. . .one more.

Is it suicide when someone refuses life saving medical treatment?

(I won't be back to the board until late pm today, so my lack of response is not that I am ignoring you)

wareyin 21st July 2022 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13860086)
Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13860084)
If you think it's stupid to ignore, then you think it's valuable to include in the discussion.

.....No I don't. And I'm not going to go on a long explanation to you of why because that is off topic. If you want to discuss further, you can message me or start another thread.

Oh, this is one of those "I know virtually nobody holds this position, and I know it's a crazy position, and I know that the few who do hold this position aren't interested in discussion and compromise, and I don't even think including the position is valuable. But for some unfathomable reason I want this extremist, unvaluable, minority of a minority position whose inclusion is intended to stop discussion to be included in the discussion. Even though I don't agree with the position or think including it brings any value to the discussion at all" type 'bog the discussion down' things, huh?

Regnad Kcin 21st July 2022 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arayder (Post 13860285)
So, BobTheCoward, do you think it is murder to take a brain dead relative (with no living will) off life support?

One can safely say the relative has no opinion on that.

Regnad Kcin 21st July 2022 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13860376)
Ridiculous. A brain dead relative is not going to develop into a fully capable person. Just dumb. I hope I missed some larger point.

Not all fertilized eggs do either.

thaiboxerken 21st July 2022 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13860376)
Ridiculous. A brain dead relative is not going to develop into a fully capable person. ....

Neither is an aborted fetus/zygote/embryo.

BobTheCoward 21st July 2022 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13860423)
Oh, this is one of those "I know virtually nobody holds this position, and I know it's a crazy position, and I know that the few who do hold this position aren't interested in discussion and compromise, and I don't even think including the position is valuable. But for some unfathomable reason I want this extremist, unvaluable, minority of a minority position whose inclusion is intended to stop discussion to be included in the discussion. Even though I don't agree with the position or think including it brings any value to the discussion at all" type 'bog the discussion down' things, huh?

Without that position being represented....there isn't anything to discuss. People's positions on the issues flow from what a person believes on the life question. If you exclude them, you have an echo chamber.

There isnt nuance here. The choice is echo chamber or intractable debate.

wareyin 21st July 2022 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13860565)
Without that position being represented....there isn't anything to discuss. People's positions on the issues flow from what a person believes on the life question. If you exclude them, you have an echo chamber.

There isnt nuance here. The choice is echo chamber or intractable debate.

Nonsense. There are plenty of positions in between "a 10 year old rape victim is committing murder if she gets an abortion" and "abortion decisions should be between the doctor an patient only".

shuttlt 21st July 2022 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13860565)
Without that position being represented....there isn't anything to discuss. People's positions on the issues flow from what a person believes on the life question. If you exclude them, you have an echo chamber.

There isnt nuance here. The choice is echo chamber or intractable debate.

Absolutely. I often see these debates described as theological. They go to ones core beliefs about life.

BobTheCoward 21st July 2022 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13860570)
Nonsense. There are plenty of positions in between "a 10 year old rape victim is committing murder if she gets an abortion" and "abortion decisions should be between the doctor an patient only".

Such as?

Either they think the 10 year old is committing murder, or they think the 10 year old should be able to have an abortion.

wareyin 21st July 2022 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13860594)
Such as?

Either they think the 10 year old is committing murder, or they think the 10 year old should be able to have an abortion.

Or they think abortion should be legal up to a certain point.

Or they think that most abortions should be illegal except in cases of rape and incest.

You know, the major, well known positions that those actually interested in nuance and debate hold?

llwyd 21st July 2022 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13860598)
Or they think abortion should be legal up to a certain point.

Or they think that most abortions should be illegal except in cases of rape and incest.

You know, the major, well known positions that those actually interested in nuance and debate hold?


Yeah, that's me and the Finnish law - abortion should be legal up to a certain point. Not gonna choose between murder and my body, my decision till term. In fairness basically no-one anywhere argues for that latter position unless in extreme medical cases which are usually totally morally acceptable.

BobTheCoward 21st July 2022 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13860598)
Or they think abortion should be legal up to a certain point.

Or they think that most abortions should be illegal except in cases of rape and incest.

You know, the major, well known positions that those actually interested in nuance and debate hold?

.....the 10 year old example has all of those people on the same side.

wareyin 21st July 2022 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13860616)
.....the 10 year old example has all of those people on the same side.

and?

BobTheCoward 21st July 2022 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13860626)
and?

then discussing it is an echo chamber

wareyin 21st July 2022 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13860633)
then discussing it is an echo chamber

No. In the first place, the discussion isn't specifically about that one case but rather abortion laws and rights in general. So those opinions are all most definitely not on the same side, nor is the discussion among those willing to have a discussion an echo chamber.

In the second place, even discussing that one case, those different viewpoints are all not the same even if none of them agree with forcing a 10 year old to have her rapist's baby.

In the third place, as even you seen to understand, the "it's always murder" crowd isn't there to have a discussion, so including them doesn't broaden a discussion.

BobTheCoward 21st July 2022 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13860644)
No. In the first place, the discussion isn't specifically about that one case but rather abortion laws and rights in general. So those opinions are all most definitely not on the same side, nor is the discussion among those willing to have a discussion an echo chamber.

In the second place, even discussing that one case, those different viewpoints are all not the same even if none of them agree with forcing a 10 year old to have her rapist's baby.

In the third place, as even you seen to understand, the "it's always murder" crowd isn't there to have a discussion, so including them doesn't broaden a discussion.

What different viewpoints are there are the 10 year old case?

wareyin 21st July 2022 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13860657)
What different viewpoints are there are the 10 year old case?

I've already answered this, and you quoted me answering it.

BobTheCoward 21st July 2022 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13860659)
I've already answered this, and you quoted me answering it.

Explaining to you why those are not different views being expressed is a different thread.

wareyin 21st July 2022 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13860662)
Explaining to you why those are not different views being expressed is a different thread.

Abortion should not be illegal at all, abortion should be illegal after a certain point, and abortion should be illegal in all but the most extenuating circumstances are different views. Your problem is that none of those viewpoints is simply there to stop any discussion, like the one you want included is.

BobTheCoward 21st July 2022 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13860663)
Abortion should not be illegal at all, abortion should be illegal after a certain point, and abortion should be illegal in all but the most extenuating circumstances are different views. Your problem is that none of those viewpoints is simply there to stop any discussion, like the one you want included is.

(refraining from further discussion until informed by someone official that this specific topic is on topic)

Bob001 21st July 2022 12:12 PM

One account of the imkpact of ending Roe:
Quote:

The horror stories from state abortion bans are piling up: Women facing dangerous delays in care for miscarriages. Doctors violating their training and waiting until their patient is at death’s door before performing an abortion. Pharmacists struggling to understand whether filling prescriptions for drugs that are used both for abortions and for post-miscarriage treatment opens them up to criminal charges.
....
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...lass-citizens/

Andy_Ross 21st July 2022 12:19 PM

It's spreading

Abortion deleted from UK Government-organised international human rights statement

Quote:

A UK Government-organised multinational statement committing to the fundamental rights of women and girls has been amended to remove references to ‘sexual and reproductive health and rights’ and ‘bodily autonomy’. The statement was issued by the UK as part of an intergovernmental conference it hosted in London on 5-6 July. A total of 22 countries signed the joint statement before it was amended.
https://humanists.uk/2022/07/19/abor...hts-statement/

Stacyhs 21st July 2022 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13860598)
Or they think abortion should be legal up to a certain point.

Or they think that most abortions should be illegal except in cases of rape and incest.

You know, the major, well known positions that those actually interested in nuance and debate hold?

Speaking of, I've yet to get an answer from a certain member...or really any anti-choice member... as to why aborting 'babies' resulting from rape or incest is not considered murdering 'the most innocent among us'. Are these 'babies' guilty of something?

Stacyhs 21st July 2022 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13860679)
It's spreading

Abortion deleted from UK Government-organised international human rights statement



https://humanists.uk/2022/07/19/abor...hts-statement/

Stupid has a way of doing that. There's just so much fertile ground out there.

arayder 21st July 2022 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13860376)
Ridiculous. A brain dead relative is not going to develop into a fully capable person. Just dumb. I hope I missed some larger point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 13860554)
Neither is an aborted fetus/zygote/embryo.

Neither is a troll.

My contention is that medical decisions such as whether to have an abortion, take grandpa off life support, determine the medical care your child might receive or refuse medical treatment are privacy rights protected by the 9th amendment.

Stacyhs 21st July 2022 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arayder (Post 13860844)
Neither is a troll.

My contention is that medical decisions such as whether to have an abortion, take grandpa off life support or determine the medical care your child might receive are privacy rights protected by the 9th amendment.

The courts have found that parents refusing critical medical help for a child for religious reasons is not protected.

arayder 21st July 2022 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13860861)
The courts have found that parents refusing critical medical help for a child for religious reasons is not protected.

Case cite, please. :-)

I will refrain from an "outlier" rant.

Stacyhs 21st July 2022 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arayder (Post 13860863)
Case cite, please. :-)



Quote:

Religious Beliefs are Not a Defense for Denying Treatment to a Child. Adults have the right to refuse their own medical care for religious or personal reasons. However, this legal right to refuse medical care does not extend to their children if it endangers the child's welfare.
https://www.lawinfo.com/resources/in...ment-to-a.html

Some cases:

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news...g-death/29977/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ns-police-say/

https://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-ci...nvestigat.html

arayder 21st July 2022 03:35 PM

Thanks. Will read.

autumn1971 23rd July 2022 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13857673)
And I get that you haven't followed much of this thread.

I presented my general support of Roe for months here, my opposition to limiting abortion in cases of rape and incest, and my support of free birth control and education. Not good enough, though. Never will be.

But now, because of liberal inability to compromise and push on abortion matters, I don't care how this plays out. I will let the states decide, and be happy with that. And I certainly won't let a liberal outcry over the rape of a ten-year-old keep my focus off of the other 600k+ annual executions of the unborn.

TLDR: I supported Roe v Wade, but every abortion is an “execution” by a terrible personnel who absolutely should be punished.
And I’m a conservative who thinks government should trump individual rights.

autumn1971 23rd July 2022 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13857704)
We get it, you won't go on record as condemning law allowing for 8 1/2 month abortions without medical cause.

Well, that's fine. I condemn it. And I also have condemned not allowing abortion in cases of rape and incest. But now, with no chance at compromise on these issues, I leave it to the states.

Chips falling where they may. Good job, Dems.

If I run at near light-speed, I will cause a huge explosion that will kill millions of actual persons.
No state statute prevents me from running at near light speed.
Why are you not condemning every state that fails to prevent this?

BobTheCoward 23rd July 2022 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by autumn1971 (Post 13861903)
If I run at near light-speed, I will cause a huge explosion that will kill millions of actual persons.
No state statute prevents me from running at near light speed.
Why are you not condemning every state that fails to prevent this?

Maybe they would if you made a thread about it.

Stacyhs 23rd July 2022 12:29 PM

To all the anti-choice men: I don't care what your opinion on abortion is. Until you have to face the same decisions that pregnant under any circumstance women and girls have to make or when you have legislators telling you that you have no autonomy over your own body, then I'll care. Until then, your opinion on this has zero relevance so ST*U.

BobTheCoward 23rd July 2022 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13861971)
To all the anti-choice men: I don't care what your opinion on abortion is. Until you have to face the same decisions that pregnant under any circumstance women and girls have to make or when you have legislators telling you that you have no autonomy over your own body, then I'll care. Until then, your opinion on this has zero relevance so ST*U.

Should every law be evaluated by that same test (the legislatures must face the same choice to commit the act before outlawing the act) or just abortion?


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