Is Mark Basile's WTC Dust Study Pointless?

Oystein said:
Jones is wrong.

And you are wrong, too.


Neither Jones' red-gray "energetic" chips nor his "iron microspheres" have anything to do with silcon carbide/aluminium oxide cutting disks.

The red-gray, "energtic" chips are steel primer paint (pigments in organic polymer) on steel surface (spalled during bulding collaps).

Iron rich microspheres (non-energetic!) form in many processes during large, heterogenous fires. They may also form by cutting steel debris for transport, but by the time Jones' fust samples were collected and bagged, hardly any cutting-up had taken place.


Those cut-off wheels are NOT made from "energetic" materials - the very opposite is true:

Silicon carbide at Wikipedia:
"Silicon carbide does not melt at any known pressure. It is also highly inert chemically. "​
Aluminium oxide is chemically inert, too, as Al is very oxygen-greedy and will not give up the bond to any fuel. And anyway, Jones never found any Al-oxide.


You should stop insisting on repeating false claims, and instead read and appretiate rebuttals!
Click to expand...

Really are you so sure of yourself
That you use sloppy.internet
Research from wiki?
Gee I thought these buildings
Were bombed in the 1990s and required
Regular repair.
I am beginning to think that this site has
Gone down hill since I have been gone.
 
Crazyer Chainsaw said:
Really are you so sure of yourself
That you use sloppy.internet
Research from wiki?
Gee I thought these buildings
Were bombed in the 1990s and required
Regular repair.
I am beginning to think that this site has
Gone down hill since I have been gone.
Click to expand...

Is this supposed to be a poem?
 
Redwood said:
It looks like paint (from a macro perspective), it looks like paint (from a micro perspective), it has the chemistry of paint and it acts like paint. It's paint, tons of which were known to be present in the WTC. No need for exotic theorizing.
Click to expand...
Ok waste money testing if Jones has what
I believe he has it is natural to the buildings
A result of repair or construction over time.
And an energetic.chip or.two or a truck.load does not
Mean anything.
 
Redwood said:
It looks like paint (from a macro perspective), it looks like paint (from a micro perspective), it has the chemistry of paint and it acts like paint. It's paint, tons of which were known to be present in the WTC. No need for exotic theorizing.
Click to expand...

Mr.Herbert said:
Is this supposed to be a poem?
Click to expand...

I am trying to tell you Jones is not releasing
His data, because he has chips from cutting
Blades used on world trade center steel and
Aluminum pryer to 2001 where the nano.speres
Of steel have rusted.
Those chips are certainly possible in the dust and would be a natural occurance.
He has a very limited supply and they can be thermitic and mean absolutely nothing.
 
The.discription the cter gave.

(Gotta give Mother Nature a hellova lotta credit to come up with such a high tech super explosive, all those super-tiny aluminum plates, in intimate touching contact with perfectly formed super-tiny cubes of Fe2O3, managing to find themselves within silicon carbide chambers, sitting like an Hors d'oeuvre atop a tiny ceramic wafer. Sure, C you got it so figured out! Lead author Niels Harrit can viewed on several youtube videos to judge his depth of sincerity and integrity. The stuff was sprayed under all the flooring, and that's how it got turned into incredibly fine dust. The Official Story offers no explanation for that! Their version of the collapse would have resulted in lots of crunchy pieces of concrete flooring, not extraordinarily fine dust!)
 
Redwood said:
It looks like paint (from a macro perspective), it looks like paint (from a micro perspective), it has the chemistry of paint and it acts like paint. It's paint, tons of which were known to be present in the WTC. No need for exotic theorizing.
Click to expand...

It is not exotic theorizing just logical deduction.
All your statement would apply to the chips I propose to,
However they would be energetic thermite like
And of natural origin from construction and matainance.
They would be simular enough to thermite to fool
Jones into thinking they are a smoking gun.
The iron microspheres that can only be produced from
Grinding, Electrical arching, or thermite would have had to have
Had time to Oxidize to Fe203, to be reactive.
.It would be almost impossible not to have
Them in the dust, Jones might have found just
One or two of them.
 
Crazy Chainsaw,

I think it is time for you to present evidence that silicon carbide/aluminium oxide wheel cutters + steel can and do form something that is
- magnetically attracted
- red layer on gray layer
- contains lots of organic matrix
- releases 7.5 kJ/g heat upon burning
- have this microstructure with grains that look exactly like red paint pigment and platelets that look exactly like clay paint filler

Jones presented the data.

Here is an elemental spectrum of one of his chips:


and here an elemental spectrum of a bit of WTC perimeter column paint (Tnemec) that Jones retrieved from a memorial:


Please compare the two element by element, peak by peak! This is as good a match as you'll ever get in XEDS spectroscopy.


Here is "Jones'" (actually Jeff Farrer's, another co-author of Harrit) XEDS spectra from chips a+b:


And here is a simulation of another known WTC primer. We know the recipe and can deduce from it the elemental composition. XEDS-software can oroduce realistic spectra from that:


Again, compare them element by element!
(I used to have a graphic where I superimposed the sim and the Jones plot, to adapt the scales)


The DSC-charts speak for organic combustion, two of them actually have typical features for epoxy, which is the binder fpr LaClede-primer.


ALL the evidence speaks for primer paint.


You need to provide evidence for silicon carbide, al-oxide and that wheel-cutting produces such oddly-strutured chips. It is clear and extremely straight-forward how primer paint accounts for that structure.
 
Oystein said:
Crazy Chainsaw,

I think it is time for you to present evidence that silicon carbide/aluminium oxide wheel cutters + steel can and do form something that is
- magnetically attracted
- red layer on gray layer
- contains lots of organic matrix
- releases 7.5 kJ/g heat upon burning
- have this microstructure with grains that look exactly like red paint pigment and platelets that look exactly like clay paint filler

Jones presented the data.

Here is an elemental spectrum of one of his chips:
[qimg]http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i328/MikeAlfaromeo/ActiveThermiticMaterial/th_ActiveThermiticMaterial_Fig14.jpg[/qimg]

and here an elemental spectrum of a bit of WTC perimeter column paint (Tnemec) that Jones retrieved from a memorial:
[qimg]http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i328/MikeAlfaromeo/ActiveThermiticMaterial/StevenJonesPresentation1/th_JonesPrimerPaint-2m48s_bottomright.jpg[/qimg]

Please compare the two element by element, peak by peak! This is as good a match as you'll ever get in XEDS spectroscopy.


Here is "Jones'" (actually Jeff Farrer's, another co-author of Harrit) XEDS spectra from chips a+b:
[qimg]http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i328/MikeAlfaromeo/ActiveThermiticMaterial/th_ActiveThermiticMaterial_Fig07_ab.jpg[/qimg]

And here is a simulation of another known WTC primer. We know the recipe and can deduce from it the elemental composition. XEDS-software can oroduce realistic spectra from that:
[qimg]http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i328/MikeAlfaromeo/ActiveThermiticMaterial/XEDS-Sims/th_LaClede-MCsimulationofbulk20kV2_zpsec021d09.png[/qimg]

Again, compare them element by element!
(I used to have a graphic where I superimposed the sim and the Jones plot, to adapt the scales)


The DSC-charts speak for organic combustion, two of them actually have typical features for epoxy, which is the binder fpr LaClede-primer.


ALL the evidence speaks for primer paint.


You need to provide evidence for silicon carbide, al-oxide and that wheel-cutting produces such oddly-strutured chips. It is clear and extremely straight-forward how primer paint accounts for that structure.
Click to expand...

One I am refering to chips from grinding construction dust in wet paint,
The primer before it drys, the spectra would be Identical.
..Two the thermitic reaction produced can be above what jones found.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
One I am refering to chips from grinding construction dust in wet paint,
The primer before it drys, the spectra would be Identical.
..Two the thermitic reaction produced can be above what jones found.
Click to expand...

Huh? Wet paint? Which wet paint?
All the steel arrived at the construction site (1966-1971) already fully painted - dry paint!

You'd habe to present evidence and reasons for you two claims.
 
Oystein said:
Huh? Wet paint? Which wet paint?
All the steel arrived at the construction site (1966-1971) already fully painted - dry paint!

You'd habe to present evidence and reasons for you two claims.
Click to expand...

I think what chainsaw is saying is, there would have been iron dust particles on the steel during the painting process. This would have mixed with the wet paint.

After seeing Ivan's experiment I'm inclined to think it came from the rust.
 
Oystein said:
Huh? Wet paint? Which wet paint?
All the steel arrived at the construction site (1966-1971) already fully painted - dry paint!

You'd habe to present evidence and reasons for you two claims.
Click to expand...


Just a small remark.

Some painting of especially the joints must have been done on site, not that it changes the overall argument in any way.
 
Oystein said:
Huh? Wet paint? Which wet paint?
All the steel arrived at the construction site (1966-1971) already fully painted - dry paint!

You'd habe to present evidence and reasons for you two claims.
Click to expand...

Didn't know you could paint welds before
You welded them. Lol

Welds breaking would create dust.
Steel and paint.

A second coat of primer would be
Normal after welding and repair.
 
Still, the idea to ascribe anything that Jones described as being the result of grinding dust embedding itseld in what little wet paint there was overall seems bizarre and far-fetched, when easier explanations are already available: paint contains particles anyway! We call them pigments, and they look in every way just like what Jones describes for the paint-like chips!
Iron-rich microspheres have not been found by Jones or anyone else embedded into wet or dry paint, they are found elsewhere in the dust, or after burning the paint. In the former case, plenty of sources are possible, some of them no doubt apply: mineral residue of organic fires is going to be by far the most important source; residue of steel working also makes sense. In the latter case, there (at least) are two possible ways such spherical, iron-bearing things appear: a) iron oxide pigment coaleces as the organic matrix burns away (within char, or sintering...) - this is the case for the microsphere he shows in Fig. 21; and of course the attached gray layer is the source for larger, roundish but less spherical stuff like Fig. 26
 
Oystein said:
Still, the idea to ascribe anything that Jones described as being the result of grinding dust embedding itseld in what little wet paint there was overall seems bizarre and far-fetched, when easier explanations are already available: paint contains particles anyway! We call them pigments, and they look in every way just like what Jones describes for the paint-like chips!
Iron-rich microspheres have not been found by Jones or anyone else embedded into wet or dry paint, they are found elsewhere in the dust, or after burning the paint. In the former case, plenty of sources are possible, some of them no doubt apply: mineral residue of organic fires is going to be by far the most important source; residue of steel working also makes sense. In the latter case, there (at least) are two possible ways such spherical, iron-bearing things appear: a) iron oxide pigment coaleces as the organic matrix burns away (within char, or sintering...) - this is the case for the microsphere he shows in Fig. 21; and of course the attached gray layer is the source for larger, roundish but less spherical stuff like Fig. 26
Click to expand...

Oystein,

I would love it if the tests find only
Paint chips and that is all Jones has, however
I know Jones is not to be trusted.

He may not have released all.his data, he
Is going to milk the saps in the trurther movement
As long as he can they worship him and he
Adores it.

I am simply speculating on what the.chips
Could be based on what could be experimentally
Proven.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
Oystein,

I would love it if the tests find only
Paint chips and that is all Jones has, however
I know Jones is not to be trusted.

He may not have released all.his data, he
Is going to milk the saps in the trurther movement
As long as he can they worship him and he
Adores it.
Click to expand...
So you are here arguing and refuting unknown things that you suspect fraudster Jones to have hidden under his belt?
Interesting.
Call me when there is something to be seen and assessed.

Crazy Chainsaw said:
I am simply speculating on what the.chips
Could be based on what could be experimentally
Proven.
Click to expand...
I know.
And I know your speculation is WRONG:
The chips that Jones has presented so far are red paint on steel.

(To be sure: The Harrit e.al. paper shows, as part of its speculations towards the end, a couple of chips that are different from the others: One has multiple layers; the other has C instead of Fe/O as gray layer. They don't offer much useful data along with these, present them as somewhat exotic, so neither they nor we can really say what they are, it's ALL speculation - however with paint still being the leading speculation)
 
Oystein said:
So you are here arguing and refuting unknown things that you suspect fraudster Jones to have hidden under his belt?
Interesting.
Call me when there is something to be seen and assessed.


I know.
And I know your speculation is WRONG:
The chips that Jones has presented so far are red paint on steel.

(To be sure: The Harrit e.al. paper shows, as part of its speculations towards the end, a couple of chips that are different from the others: One has multiple layers; the other has C instead of Fe/O as gray layer. They don't offer much useful data along with these, present them as somewhat exotic, so neither they nor we can really say what they are, it's ALL speculation - however with paint still being the leading speculation)
Click to expand...

True but Jones when he lost the microspheres debate
Pulled the red chips out of his hat.
Next magic trick I expect will be the other
Chips, he does this to show he can debunk
Those who refute his work.
It amazes the truthers so he usually lets
A few of his worshipers know before he releases
His findings.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
True but Jones when he lost the microspheres debate
Pulled the red chips out of his hat.
Next magic trick I expect will be the other
Chips, he does this to show he can debunk
Those who refute his work.
It amazes the truthers so he usually lets
A few of his worshipers know before he releases
His findings.
Click to expand...

Oh, with the stupidity of the typical truther, he doesn't have to pull put new chips. Throwing in a few bogus arguments will suffice.
For example, he says that chips with Ti, like Millette found, should be thrown out, since the Harrit chips don't have Ti. WRONG. At least one chip-residue has Ti
He says that chips without Pb, like Millette found, should be thrown out, since the Harrit chips did have Pb. WRONG. Most chips don't have any trace of Pb.
He says it's wrong to wash chips with water, but right to bath them in MEK. WRONG - he is making stuff up.
He says chips must be tested with flame and DSC and electricity and MEK before you can be sure that you have the right chips. WRONG. He didn't use all of these methods on any chip at all.

So Jones simply has to lie - about methods, about data, and about interpretation, and the faithful will bow in awe and say "Amen, Dr. Jones!"
 
Jones has had next to nothing to do with Truthers for almost 5 years. It was very telling when he failed to show up for the Toronto "Truth Hearings" in 2011.

Mostly, he's now touting electrical circuits that supposedly put out more energy than what goes in. :boggled:
 
Redwood said:
Jones has had next to nothing to do with Truthers for almost 5 years. ...
Click to expand...

He infrequently writes a bit on 911Blogger
http://911blogger.com/blogs/profjones

Apparently, his paranoia has reached a new stage:
http://911blogger.com/news/2014-09-...-exceed-20000-supporters-month#comment-261749
ProfJones said:
In dozens of talks, I have encouraged people to get together a supply of food (and if possible, fuel) in view of an EMPulse attack or other attack on the electrical grid and transportation. Should such a tragic attack occur, shipping of food to grocery stores (which we take for granted) would almost certainly be curtailed suddenly.

Don't count on the government or your neighbor to have sufficient food for you to "mooch" off of -- you need to have your own supply in case of such an emergency.
...
Suggest you get at least several months of food and water (wherever legal), along with warm clothing.
Click to expand...
Spooky.
 
Not to mention Harrit travelling to the UK thinking he was attending a court case where the BBC were being taken to court and he was going to be an expert witness.

What a silly Billy :D
 
Yes he is nuts always was, no change
From when I talked to him in 2005.
The twoofer cult is about dead.

It was brain dead from the begining,
Wish we could have pulled the plug on
It sooner though.
 
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