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Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

Poem said:
Evidence that Arden Young and Eric Cochran have misled us would be interesting. You haven't done that.
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their long history of involvement with an organization that did that as their de facto mode of operation is the evidence. they have misled the public many times. that’s the point.

For someone who has said that:
"i’m not really interested enough to spend a ton of time researching or debating it..."

I wonder why you are continuing on this thread.
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a fading hope that you’ll acknowledge the above
 
dirtywick said:
their long history of involvement with an organization that did that as their de facto mode of operation is the evidence. they have misled the public many times. that’s the point.
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I asked for evidence of Young and Cochran doing so.

Please.
 
go ask someone else then. i’m saying they’re not credible due to their past actions and therefore a poor source. i’m not sure why you find them credible. i think it benefits others in the thread to be familiar with who you’re relying on to make your arguments.

anything beyond that doesn’t concern me.
 
theprestige said:
The Dolphin Species, maybe. One thing that sets humans apart from other animals is the capacity to rise above our base instincts, and strive to be something better.
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Leaving internet porn essentially lying around for children to watch isn't an example of that. It's a disgrace.

That is where society is.
 
theprestige said:
That's not the totality of where society is.
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I agree, not the totality - not everyone, but generally speaking.

And I still dissent from your "easy access to porn" = "rape culture" thesis.
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Rape culture normalizes and trivializes sexual abuse; showing porn to children is sexual abuse and society is, de facto, doing that.
 
theprestige said:
The Dolphin Species, maybe. One thing that sets humans apart from other animals is the capacity to rise above our base instincts, and strive to be something better.
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But you are talking about ruining the lives of young men with a lot of potential for what 10 minutes of fun? Why else do you think judges refuse to send these bright young rapists to prison, because they did much the same thing in college and they got away with it fine.
 
theprestige said:
That's too much of a stretch for me, sorry.
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You are of course entitled to your opinion but this isn't a serious rebuttal of what I said.

That 'rape culture' normalizes and trivializes sexual abuse is just a formal definition. That the showing of porn to a child is sexual abuse is affirmed by CEOP (part of the National Crime Agency in the UK). That society is effectively showing porn to children through easy access internet sites is obvious (1 in 10 children have viewed pornography by the time they are nine years old, according to the Children's Commissioner for England).

That's a damning indictment of humanity and is in addition to all the other evidence presented here.
 
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dirtywick said:
go ask someone else then.
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Anyone is and has been free to do so.

i’m saying they’re not credible due to their past actions and therefore a poor source. i’m not sure why you find them credible. i think it benefits others in the thread to be familiar with who you’re relying on to make your arguments.

anything beyond that doesn’t concern me.
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They are not credible, you say, for their past actions but when challenged to produce evidence of wrongdoing you yield nothing.

I'd say that leaves their evidence credible and yours very much in doubt. 'Put up or shut up' sounds offensive...but it would apply here.
 
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theprestige said:
No, not even generally speaking. Not in my opinion, anyway.

That's too much of a stretch for me, sorry.
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What Poem isn't acknowledging is that every culture has aspects of everything. If you want to call a culture an "X culture" you need to show that they're more broadly and intensively involved in "X" than typical cultures, not just that "X' exists in it at all. We don't call the Swiss a "warrior culture" just because they have armed forces. There are enough present-day (let alone historical) cultures where we don't have to resort to abstractions to find frequent and widely internally condoned rape going on.
 
Myriad said:
What Poem isn't acknowledging is that every culture has aspects of everything. If you want to call a culture an "X culture" you need to show that they're more broadly and intensively involved in "X" than typical cultures, not just that "X' exists in it at all. We don't call the Swiss a "warrior culture" just because they have armed forces. There are enough present-day (let alone historical) cultures where we don't have to resort to abstractions to find frequent and widely internally condoned rape going on.
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Another false analogy Myriad - having armed forces isn't illegal. #506

You speak of abstraction but it is actually factual that children are being sexually abused by societies that leave porn lying around on the net for them to stumble upon. Shrugging one's shoulders at this is a clear sign that our porn saturated cultures have desensitized us. That is rape culture. If we know a child is being sexually abused then it is one's moral duty to do something about it. We aren't.
 
Is it right that we deem it sexual abuse to show porn to children?
 
Poem said:
Another false analogy Myriad - having armed forces isn't illegal. #506
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False pretext for dismissing a valid analogy. Which is about misuse of the term "rape culture" and has nothing to do with illegality.

Also, in most of the present and historical examples of actual rape cultures, the nonconsensual sex at issue (e.g. with slaves, with military enemies, with underclasses who lack legal protection, within marital arrangements that may themselves be nonconsensual, etc.) is not actually illegal. That's one of the things that made them/makes them rape cultures! The fact that child porn and showing porn to children are illegal is strong evidence that ours is not a rape culture. (Though not as strong evidence as the fact that rape is illegal!)

You speak of abstraction but it is actually factual that children are being sexually abused by societies that leave porn lying around on the net for them to stumble upon. Shrugging one's shoulders at this is a clear sign that our porn saturated cultures have desensitized us. That is rape culture. If we know a child is being sexually abused then it is one's moral duty to do something about it. We aren't.
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That's not rape culture. It's children-might-stumble-on-Internet-porn culture. Stop trivializing the suffering of actual victims of actual rape by equating rape with crimes that aren't rape.
 
Myriad said:
False pretext for dismissing a valid analogy. Which is about misuse of the term "rape culture" and has nothing to do with illegality.
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I disagree but there is certainly an issue with the definition of the term 'rape culture'. It did begin as a second-wave feminist movement to highlight that there was more rape going on than was known about, but if you google 'define rape culture' it says:

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

Since showing porn to a child is classified as sexual abuse then it does fall within the definition. We can perhaps agree that 'rape culture' isn't the best phrase to cover what is being discussed here.

Either way, the charge remains that society continues to shrug whilst leaving porn lying around for children to stumble on and be damaged by. That is an astonishing indictment.
Also, in most of the present and historical examples of actual rape cultures, the nonconsensual sex at issue (e.g. with slaves, with military enemies, with underclasses who lack legal protection, within marital arrangements that may themselves be nonconsensual, etc.) is not actually illegal. That's one of the things that made them/makes them rape cultures! The fact that child porn and showing porn to children are illegal is strong evidence that ours is not a rape culture. (Though not as strong evidence as the fact that rape is illegal!)
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With conviction rates somewhere around 2% (in the UK at least with a strong tradition of upholding the law) then the fact that it is illegal is somewhat academic.
That's not rape culture. It's children-might-stumble-on-Internet-porn culture. Stop trivializing the suffering of actual victims of actual rape by equating rape with crimes that aren't rape.
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Again, this is a definition issue - but I would say that you clearly are underestimating the damage being done.
 
Darat said:
Society - adults should be allowed whatever entertainment they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone without their consent.

Society - up to parents to control what their kids have access to
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It is harming people - here is the reality (from Barnardo's):

Children still are not protected from accessing harmful pornographic content, which poses a serious risk to their mental health, and their understanding of consent and healthy relationships.

Many children are stumbling across pornographic content accidentally, including children as young as 7.

Barnardo’s frontline workers say that children are participating in acts they have seen in pornographic videos, despite feeling uncomfortable and scared.

The Government’s Equalities Office found that there was ‘substantial evidence of an association’ between the use of pornography and harmful attitudes and behaviours towards women and girls.

Pornographic content which suggests sexual activity with children is extremely harmful but is rife on mainstream pornography sites. This content promotes an interest in child sexual abuse material and in some cases can lead to abuse online and offline. Such content would be illegal offline, on DVD or Blu Ray, but is prevalent across mainstream pornography sites.

According to the Centre to End All Sexual Exploitation (CEASE), online pornography which depicts sexual activity with performers pretending to be children normalises children as objects of sexual desire and drives the demand for ‘real’ child sexual abuse material.

Increasingly extreme pornography can legitimise abusive behaviour, meaning that some excessive users of pornography can spiral into viewing child sexual abuse material, and potentially even abusing children.

YouGov polling for Barnardo’s found that almost 70 per cent of UK adults (69%) agree that pornography which would be illegal on DVD should also be illegal online
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Problem: Most parents are crap at controlling what their kids have access to.
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Your argument is with the likes of Daniel Kebede (a former teach - now General Secretary of the NEU in the UK) who, as I have already pointed out, firmly points the finger away from parents.

Do you have similar expertise to Kebede?
 
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