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Old 15th February 2023, 01:17 PM   #601
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Not just seriously but almost completely literally. By the book, and nothing else.
.
Which, ironically, is them making a point of not having a personal moral compass. Especially given a complex often ambiguous text.

Textualism means never having to say you're sorry. It's not me wanting to beat my children. It's that darned bible verse you see....
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Old 15th February 2023, 01:47 PM   #602
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
For me, I tend to see groups like the Amish, old order Mennonite and Hutterites as deeply rooted in Christianity; people who take the Bible their faith seriously. So it comes as a surprise when I see them acting like every other group of human beings and ignoring the tenets of their faith.
I don't understand why that should come as any surprise.
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Old 15th February 2023, 03:20 PM   #603
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I am reminded of a friend long ago wha grew up in an area surrounded by " black bumper" Mennonites. A schism that allows modern machinery, but still eschews ornament. So they strip their cars of chrome and paint the bumpers and grilles black. But that did not stop them from one upping their neighbors by buying bigger more expensive black cars. No matter how much paint you apply, a black Lincoln beats a black Ford.

Perhaps one of the down sides of living according to strict literalism is that what isn't in the text isn't anywhere - a variation of the dodge so often seen in political arguments that if you do not say a thing explicitly you can insinuate anything.
I can see that. There's nothing in the Bible against running puppy mills, so one can conclude it's an acceptable operation.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I don't understand why that should come as any surprise.
Well, it was a surprise for me because I once viewed humans as a relatively gentle species, with the huge majority just wanting to get along with each other. I also viewed Christians, with their emphasis on honesty, piety, love (which I correlated with empathy)and humility as offering the best humans could do.

Then I started following politics and watching public affairs programming on CBC and PBS. It turns out a lot of humans have sociopathic tendencies. They worm their way into positions of power, where they freely ignore things like honesty, humility, and empathy.
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Old 15th February 2023, 04:35 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
I can see that. There's nothing in the Bible against running puppy mills, so one can conclude it's an acceptable operation.
There's nothing in the Bible about not eating your own crap like dogs do, either. Puppy mills are cruel but some people don't care as long as they make money.


Quote:
Well, it was a surprise for me because I once viewed humans as a relatively gentle species, with the huge majority just wanting to get along with each other. I also viewed Christians, with their emphasis on honesty, piety, love (which I correlated with empathy)and humility as offering the best humans could do.
Oh, my...not a student of history, I take it?

Quote:
Then I started following politics and watching public affairs programming on CBC and PBS. It turns out a lot of humans have sociopathic tendencies. They worm their way into positions of power, where they freely ignore things like honesty, humility, and empathy.
That will take the blinders off fast! The reason we have to have laws is because people aren't a relatively gentle species that wants to get along with each other. We are greedy, selfish, and violent by nature. We try to curb those human traits because we'd destroy ourselves if we didn't. And we fail repeatedly and often.
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Old 17th February 2023, 05:12 PM   #605
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
For me, I tend to see groups like the Amish, old order Mennonite and Hutterites as deeply rooted in Christianity; people who take the Bible their faith seriously. So it comes as a surprise when I see them acting like every other group of human beings and ignoring the tenets of their faith.
The bible is so full of contradictions that ignoring parts of it is necessary.
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Old 17th February 2023, 06:43 PM   #606
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The bible is so full of contradictions that ignoring parts of it is necessary.
I ignore the whole thing.
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Old 17th February 2023, 07:12 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I ignore the whole thing.
I don't quite. After all, there are some bits worth at least thinking about. It is fallacious in an argument to cherry pick, but if you are just out and about and in the mood for cherries, you might as well pick the good ones.
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Old 17th February 2023, 07:30 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I don't quite. After all, there are some bits worth at least thinking about. It is fallacious in an argument to cherry pick, but if you are just out and about and in the mood for cherries, you might as well pick the good ones.
The bits worth thinking about really have nothing to do with religion. They're just commonly accepted social rules.
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Old 17th February 2023, 08:14 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The bits worth thinking about really have nothing to do with religion. They're just commonly accepted social rules.
True enough, but there they are, sometimes rather nicely put at times. Besides, keeping track of some of the good bits can be handy when arguing with the growing number of self-identified Christians who see and believe only the bad ones.

One of my fondest childhood memories (I think I was about 10 or 11) is of a time when a fundie evangelist (probably a Jehovah's Witness) came to the door and confronted my mother with chapter and verse, and she, not an atheist but a relative skeptic who knew her Bible well, countered everything he said with contrary Bible passages from memory. By the end, red-faced and literally in tears, he strode down the garden path yelling of her wickedness and her sure destiny of damnation. We were not bothered by evangelists for a long time after.
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Old 17th February 2023, 10:43 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
True enough, but there they are, sometimes rather nicely put at times. Besides, keeping track of some of the good bits can be handy when arguing with the growing number of self-identified Christians who see and believe only the bad ones.

One of my fondest childhood memories (I think I was about 10 or 11) is of a time when a fundie evangelist (probably a Jehovah's Witness) came to the door and confronted my mother with chapter and verse, and she, not an atheist but a relative skeptic who knew her Bible well, countered everything he said with contrary Bible passages from memory. By the end, red-faced and literally in tears, he strode down the garden path yelling of her wickedness and her sure destiny of damnation. We were not bothered by evangelists for a long time after.
On of the things I really miss about my ex...

She was well into a 'divinity' degree when I first met her, so when missionaries (of any religion) appeared at the door, I'd say: "Hang on a minute." and summon her.

(I now like the idea that I'd need to perform a 'summoning' but I digress...)

Generally I didn't stick around to here the conversation, but I distinctly remember hearing:

"Oh dear, don't you know that your sect is based on a mistranslation?"

Followed by some old testament Greek...
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Old 17th February 2023, 11:39 PM   #611
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
True enough, but there they are, sometimes rather nicely put at times. Besides, keeping track of some of the good bits can be handy when arguing with the growing number of self-identified Christians who see and believe only the bad ones.

One of my fondest childhood memories (I think I was about 10 or 11) is of a time when a fundie evangelist (probably a Jehovah's Witness) came to the door and confronted my mother with chapter and verse, and she, not an atheist but a relative skeptic who knew her Bible well, countered everything he said with contrary Bible passages from memory. By the end, red-faced and literally in tears, he strode down the garden path yelling of her wickedness and her sure destiny of damnation. We were not bothered by evangelists for a long time after.
I'd have paid to see that!

We have Mormon missionaries come to our door sometimes. My husband, who had himself officially removed from LDS membership as soon as he was of age, just looks at them and say, "Boys, you've come to the wroooooong house." When they find out he's an 'apostate' they disappear fast.
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Old 18th February 2023, 02:55 AM   #612
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
On of the things I really miss about my ex...

She was well into a 'divinity' degree when I first met her, so when missionaries (of any religion) appeared at the door, I'd say: "Hang on a minute." and summon her.

(I now like the idea that I'd need to perform a 'summoning' but I digress...)

Generally I didn't stick around to here the conversation, but I distinctly remember hearing:

"Oh dear, don't you know that your sect is based on a mistranslation?"

Followed by some old testament Greek...
The Septuagint itself is a bad mistranslation. Hence why christianity has the "virgin" Mary.
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Old 18th February 2023, 04:35 PM   #613
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
The Septuagint itself is a bad mistranslation. Hence why christianity has the "virgin" Mary.
Indeed, I'm fairly sure that would have been what she was referring to.

The mistranslation of 'young woman' to 'virgin' (because there was no equivalent word in 'marketplace Greek')

Apologies if I don't have the details right, it was a long time ago.

NB. Calling Catholics a 'sect' while probably technically correct, seems a bit mean to me.
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Old 18th February 2023, 10:06 PM   #614
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Catholics don't proselytise door to door though, surely? I thought that was just Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Old 18th February 2023, 10:51 PM   #615
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Catholics don't proselytise door to door though, surely? I thought that was just Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.
True, they seem to prefer legislation.
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Old 18th February 2023, 11:03 PM   #616
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Catholics don't proselytise door to door though, surely? I thought that was just Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.
Catholics began as the default Jesus religion. Then came the Protestants. Still, neither went door to door to compete.

JWs were the first to go door to door (IIRC) followed by the Mormons on their 'missions'. Evangelicals chose marketing and mega-churches, but they eventually took up door to door in Latin America and elsewhere.
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Old 19th February 2023, 01:32 AM   #617
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Catholics don't proselytise door to door though, surely? I thought that was just Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.
I see you've never been asked to mind the local child of Prague, contribute to the church upkeep fund or many of the other things that the local catholic fundamentalists round here do to try and get the foot in the door.
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Old 20th February 2023, 04:49 PM   #618
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Catholics don't proselytise door to door though, surely? I thought that was just Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.
I may be in an unusual area that has a few different faiths, all of which try to recruit, particularly because of the mix of backgrounds of the people here.

(Note I had a long reply here about my local area based on my experiences running for a seat here, all deleted because it is really off topic.)
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Old 21st February 2023, 02:58 AM   #619
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**** (organic fertilizer) -birds of a feather flock together.

Piers Morgan interviews George Santos during which time Santos says he's a terrible liar but didn't mean to trick people

Quote:
Congressman George Santos has admitted to having been "a terrible liar" when confronted with his embellished resume in a new TV interview.

The embattled Republican told TalkTV's Piers Morgan he had made mistakes under pressure but his lies were not about "tricking the people".

Instead, he said, it was about "getting accepted by the party here locally".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64712914

I'm not entirely clear why telling lies to "get accepted locally" isn't the same as tricking people.

He has however learned from the masters just to brazen out certain lies:

Quote:
Challenged over a claim that his mother was in the South Tower of the World Trade Centre in New York City on 9/11, Mr Santos said: "That's true."

"I won't debate my mother's life as she's passed in [2016] and it's quite insensitive to try to rehash my mother's legacy," he said.

He added: "She wasn't one to mislead me... I stay convinced that's the truth."
ISTM that he's throwing his dear departed mum under the bus with this one.

I don't want to watch the interview on the grounds that I don't want to provide Piers Morgan with any views but I presume that he pitched a series of softballs to keep his employers happy.
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Old 21st February 2023, 03:09 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
**** (organic fertilizer) -birds of a feather flock together.

Piers Morgan interviews George Santos during which time Santos says he's a terrible liar but didn't mean to trick people



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64712914

I'm not entirely clear why telling lies to "get accepted locally" isn't the same as tricking people.

He has however learned from the masters just to brazen out certain lies:



ISTM that he's throwing his dear departed mum under the bus with this one.

I don't want to watch the interview on the grounds that I don't want to provide Piers Morgan with any views but I presume that he pitched a series of softballs to keep his employers happy.
Considering that Santos' lie was that his mother died in the 11/9/2021 attacks that's an extremely stupid way to throw his mother under the bus. Any serious journalist would have followed that up with "and when did you become suspicious about your mother telling you she died in the Twin Towers, 2002 or later?"

Lucky for Santos he was dealing with Piers Moron.
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Old 21st February 2023, 04:12 AM   #621
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A lot of people have sussed that there's a simpler response to Santos: Anything he says will be a lie. So why Piers Morgan had to interview him to reconfirm that is...equally silly.
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Old 21st February 2023, 05:12 AM   #622
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Considering that Santos' lie was that his mother died in the 11/9/2021 attacks that's an extremely stupid way to throw his mother under the bus. Any serious journalist would have followed that up with "and when did you become suspicious about your mother telling you she died in the Twin Towers, 2002 or later?"

Lucky for Santos he was dealing with Piers Moron.
He seems to have amended his story, she didn't die on September 11 2001, but she was there.

Quote:
Challenged over a claim that his mother was in the South Tower of the World Trade Centre in New York City on 9/11, Mr Santos said: "That's true."

"I won't debate my mother's life as she's passed in [2016] and it's quite insensitive to try to rehash my mother's legacy," he said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64712914

As you say, any real journalist would point out the change in story but perhaps Santos would counter with a suggestion that his mother died in 2016 as a result of being in the South Tower on 11 September 2001.

I suppose it's pointless to discuss any single lie in this context given that's all he seems to do, to lie.
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Old 21st February 2023, 05:14 AM   #623
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
A lot of people have sussed that there's a simpler response to Santos: Anything he says will be a lie. So why Piers Morgan had to interview him to reconfirm that is...equally silly.
Piers Morgan interviewed him to attract attention and viewers to his media channel(s). That's the primary concern of all media, to attract viewers and hence revenue. For some media outlets an unbiased presentation of the most accurate facts they can determine is the route they choose to achieve that. Others need to rely on more sensational content and/or pushing a particular editorial line.
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Old 21st February 2023, 03:51 PM   #624
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
He seems to have amended his story, she didn't die on September 11 2001, but she was there.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64712914

As you say, any real journalist would point out the change in story but perhaps Santos would counter with a suggestion that his mother died in 2016 as a result of being in the South Tower on 11 September 2001.

I suppose it's pointless to discuss any single lie in this context given that's all he seems to do, to lie.
Any real journalist would have pointed out that Santos' mother wasn't even in the US on 9/11:

Quote:
The immigration records, unearthed through a Freedom of Information Act request by genealogical researcher Alex Calzareth and first reported by The Washington Post, show that Santos’ mother, Fatima Caruso Devolder, was admitted to the U.S. in April 2003 and had not been in the country since 1999. She had been living in Rio de Janeiro.
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Old 21st February 2023, 04:39 PM   #625
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
A lot of people have sussed that there's a simpler response to Santos: Anything he says will be a lie. So why Piers Morgan had to interview him to reconfirm that is...equally silly.
People seem to think confronting him will have an effect. In reality people with true pathological lying have no insight into their problem even when confronted by the obvious. So it's natural he'd just make up more lies to explain/excuse the original lies.

And that's just what Santos did. He needs a psychiatrist, not a news interview. Of course an idiot like Piers has no clue. He probably thought it would make good TV to pin Georgie down in an interview.

It was sad.

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Old 21st February 2023, 05:26 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
People seem to think confronting him will have an effect. In reality people with true pathological lying have no insight into their problem even when confronted by the obvious. So it's natural he'd just make up more lies to explain/excuse the original lies.

And that's just what Santos did. He needs a psychiatrist, not a news interview. Of course an idiot like Piers has no clue. He probably thought it would make good TV to pin Georgie down in an interview.

It was sad.
Thing is, Moron and Santos are birds of a feather. They are both pathological liars. Moron likely brought Santos on to give moral support to his poor maligned brother.
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Old 21st February 2023, 06:13 PM   #627
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Originally Posted by The Don
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
A lot of people have sussed that there's a simpler response to Santos: Anything he says will be a lie. So why Piers Morgan had to interview him to reconfirm that is...equally silly.
Piers Morgan interviewed him to attract attention and viewers to his media channel(s). That's the primary concern of all media, to attract viewers and hence revenue. For some media outlets an unbiased presentation of the most accurate facts they can determine is the route they choose to achieve that. Others need to rely on more sensational content and/or pushing a particular editorial line.
Oh, that's a given. About the only thing Piers M is good at is trying to generate controversy. He's an attention-whore as much as his interviewees.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
People seem to think confronting him will have an effect. In reality people with true pathological lying have no insight into their problem even when confronted by the obvious. So it's natural he'd just make up more lies to explain/excuse the original lies.

And that's just what Santos did. He needs a psychiatrist, not a news interview. Of course an idiot like Piers has no clue. He probably thought it would make good TV to pin Georgie down in an interview.

It was sad.
As I said in my post: It was silly. And yes, sad.

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Thing is, Moron and Santos are birds of a feather. They are both pathological liars. Moron likely brought Santos on to give moral support to his poor maligned brother.
And attract Likes and clicks. I'm sure Piers would staple his dick to the desk live on camera if it got ratings.
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Old 22nd February 2023, 01:20 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
People seem to think confronting him will have an effect. In reality people with true pathological lying have no insight into their problem even when confronted by the obvious. So it's natural he'd just make up more lies to explain/excuse the original lies.

And that's just what Santos did. He needs a psychiatrist, not a news interview. Of course an idiot like Piers has no clue. He probably thought it would make good TV to pin Georgie down in an interview.

It was sad.
I agree. Santos is a pathological liar. He can't help lying any more than Trump can. It's just part of who they are, like an arm or leg.
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Old 22nd February 2023, 01:34 AM   #629
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"I'm sure Piers would staple his dick to the desk live on camera if it got ratings."

Ok...you owe me a cup of coffee.

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Old 22nd February 2023, 08:45 PM   #630
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Rally on the eve

The Economist's columnist for the U.S. "Lexington" wrote in the 21-27 January issue that George Santos addressed a rally on 5 January 2021. Santos claimed that both his election and the presidential election were stolen. At one point Mr. Santos said, "You can't make this stuff up." Lexington goes on to quote from Sissela Bok's book "Lying: Moral Choice in Public and Private Life."
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Old 2nd March 2023, 03:39 PM   #631
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House Ethics commitee will investigage Santos.
IMHO I think some of the powers that b e in the GOP have told Mccarthy that Santos is hurting the GOP as a whole, and he needs to be gotten rid of.
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Old 2nd March 2023, 08:20 PM   #632
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
House Ethics commitee will investigage Santos.
IMHO I think some of the powers that b e in the GOP have told Mccarthy that Santos is hurting the GOP as a whole, and he needs to be gotten rid of.
He's hardly the only one, nor, possibly, the worst. Perhaps this is an "encouragement" for the Boebert/Greene/Gaetz crowd that now is a good time to shut the hell up and sit the hell down.
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Old 3rd March 2023, 01:21 AM   #633
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
He's hardly the only one, nor, possibly, the worst. Perhaps this is an "encouragement" for the Boebert/Greene/Gaetz crowd that now is a good time to shut the hell up and sit the hell down.
That'll be a cold day in Hell.
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Old 3rd March 2023, 01:41 AM   #634
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
He's hardly the only one, nor, possibly, the worst. Perhaps this is an "encouragement" for the Boebert/Greene/Gaetz crowd that now is a good time to shut the hell up and sit the hell down.

Carnival Barkers never do that!!
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Old 3rd March 2023, 02:24 AM   #635
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
He's hardly the only one, nor, possibly, the worst. Perhaps this is an "encouragement" for the Boebert/Greene/Gaetz crowd that now is a good time to shut the hell up and sit the hell down.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That'll be a cold day in Hell.
True. Even when they get tossed out on their arse, they won't shut up.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Carnival Barkers never do that!!
I like the circus reference! 5 points to Gryffindor.
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Old 3rd March 2023, 09:03 AM   #636
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Not even the extremist MAGA base like George Santos. That's the only reason he's finally in investigation.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old 3rd March 2023, 09:09 AM   #637
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I'll put the Santos "Any day now counter" on the board, right below Gatz, which is right below Trump.
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Old 3rd March 2023, 09:16 AM   #638
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Old 3rd March 2023, 11:02 AM   #639
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Not even the extremist MAGA base like George Santos. That's the only reason he's finally in investigation.
Yes, investigation by a House ethics committee, composed mainly, of course, of his fellow Republicans, which means that they will have to weigh whether he's bad enough to be of no more use to them, and how many more creepy crawlies will be discovered if they lift the rock.

It might just be that he's so bad and so superfluous that he'll even be thrown out of the Liars' Club, but even then it's likely to be more about style than content, and I am still not holding my breath.
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Old 3rd March 2023, 01:09 PM   #640
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I agree. Santo's fate is tied to whether or not he's deemed useful or harmful to the republican party. They don't actually care about the "ethics" of it.
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