IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old Yesterday, 11:52 AM   #1081
Venom
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 6,331
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Then we need a third. This Supreme court is out to destroy democracy.
Rightwing media is more of a threat imo.
Tucker Carlson, NEWSMAX, Right Side Broadcasting. They are the Enemy of the People, if anyone.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 11:55 AM   #1082
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Segnosaur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 20,623
Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
I'm having trouble viewing the scheduling of the SCOTUS hearing almost 2 months from now as "expedited". I would think that the lawyers already did the hard work by preparing their arguments for the Circuit Court and would only need to do a little revising based on the Circuit Court's opinion.

I will be interested in what the pro-immunity justices cite as their rationalization. Is there any "originalist" or "textualist" justification for unlimited immunity for presidents?
I suspect none of the judges will come right out and say "Trump has immunity". The point is to benefit Trump without looking partisan. That's what this delay is about... help Trump by pushing the trial later (perhaps after the election) but at the end say "no immunity" so they can claim they are ruling fairly.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 12:01 PM   #1083
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Segnosaur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 20,623
Originally Posted by marting View Post
There might be a silver lining to this otherwise disturbing ruling.
...
Filings due in March, oral arguments in April. And oral arguments are recorded unlike in a federal trial. This may well result in people learning just how debased Trump's actions were because of the recordings.

The recording will be listened to by far more people than transcripts or reporters that will be presumed biased.
We already got a glimpse of how unhinged Trump is during the select committee hearings into the terrorist attacks, some of which were public. (And unlike the supreme court where its just lawyers making legalese comments, the committee hearings involved actual witness testimony.)

Despite all that, Trump remains the GOP frontrunner and is close to Biden's popularity in the polls.

If those hearings didn't make a serious impact into Trump's popularity, I am not sure how listing to a bunch of lawyers citing precedents will affect things.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 02:00 PM   #1084
DallasDad
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,023
Jay,


Could you explain the "outer perimeter" term?
DallasDad is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 02:04 PM   #1085
marting
Illuminator
 
marting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,969
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
We already got a glimpse of how unhinged Trump is during the select committee hearings into the terrorist attacks, some of which were public. (And unlike the supreme court where its just lawyers making legalese comments, the committee hearings involved actual witness testimony.)
And Trump's influence was lowered after those hearings. 2022 midterms didn't go as well for Trump as expected. When Trump announced for the 2024 election, he and Haley were neck and neck. It's been Trump's relentless bald assertion he lost because of fraud and generic populist crap that saw his lead among Republicans relentlessly increase since.

Quote:
Despite all that, Trump remains the GOP frontrunner and is close to Biden's popularity in the polls.
Remains? It's been growing month by month. Worse, Trump has been leading most of the popular vote polls with a trend to an increasing lead over the last year. And for Biden to win, Biden needs to have somewhere between 2% and 3% nationwide lead over Trump. For instance, a 2% popular vote Hillary win wasn't enough in 2016. Much of the Democratic vote is wasted because of concentration in large states like California.

Quote:
If those hearings didn't make a serious impact into Trump's popularity, I am not sure how listing to a bunch of lawyers citing precedents will affect things.
I've listened to a few SCOTUS cases and find them interesting. Not much precedent citing. Lots of interesting questions from the judges. The attys don't get much time and are frequently interrupted by justices. I anticipate similar interesting questions around the actions of Trump and his lawyers' attempts to overturn the election.
__________________
Flying's easy. Walking on water, now that's cool.
marting is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 02:13 PM   #1086
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,687
Originally Posted by DallasDad View Post
Jay,
Could you explain the "outer perimeter" term?
No.

That's not "No, I won't." It really is, "No, I can't." If there's a bright-line definition for it, I sure haven't been able to find it. As I wrote, the term seems to have originated in Barr v. Matteo, where the court used it to describe activities that weren't strictly part of Barr's constitutional or statutory powers and duties, but might be something he's expected to do anyway out of convention, necessity, or tradition. For the President, I would imagine that pardoning the Thanksgiving turkey every year is an "outer perimeter" duty.
__________________
‣“Facts are stubborn things.” —John Adams
‣IANAL, but I do have a white wig.
JayUtah is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 02:50 PM   #1087
DallasDad
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,023
Fascinating. Thanks, Jay.
DallasDad is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 03:32 PM   #1088
Tero
Illuminator
 
Tero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North American prairie
Posts: 3,477
Would exchanging arms for cash in Iran and taking that money to Nicaragua perhaps be in the outer perimiter of a president's duties?
__________________
Dominus vo-bisque'em Et cum spear a tu-tu, oh!

Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/
Parody: http://karireport.blogspot.com/
Poll: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...proval-rating/
Tero is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:13 PM   #1089
marting
Illuminator
 
marting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,969
Originally Posted by Tero View Post
Would exchanging arms for cash in Iran and taking that money to Nicaragua perhaps be in the outer perimiter of a president's duties?
Yeah. That's one of the problems Marcy Wheeler discusses:

https://www.emptywheel.net/2024/02/2...ied-documents/

Quote:
Given the question as posed by SCOTUS — Whether and if so to what extent does a former President enjoy presidential immunity from criminal prosecution for conduct alleged to involve official acts during his tenure in office? — I think SCOTUS may have been uncomfortable with the DC Circuit’s thin treatment of Trump’s argument that, without immunity, former Presidents could be prosecuted for things like approving the drone strike on Anwar al-Awlaki (note, when Trump raises this, he never mentions that he himself killed Awlaki’s daughter).
I've found Marcy's comments consistently thoughtful and high quality.
__________________
Flying's easy. Walking on water, now that's cool.
marting is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:54 PM   #1090
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,687
Originally Posted by Tero View Post
Would exchanging arms for cash in Iran and taking that money to Nicaragua perhaps be in the outer perimiter of a president's duties?
Sure, why not?

It's important to keep in mind that the immunity argument and the boundary-of-duties argument has only to do (right now) with civil liability. The President currently has an absolute immunity from civil lawsuits for both things that are clearly part of the office and for the fuzzy "outer perimeter" stuff that frankly begs to be defined misleadingly for political purposes. Even with that fuzz, civil immunity (ether absolute or qualified) for officers acting officially is well-settled law.

There's no provision in the Constitution or anything in case law that immunizes a President against criminal liability in any way—in fact, the opposite. Yes, we talk about the Dept. of Justice policy for sitting Presidents, but that's just administrative policy. The guiding legal philosophy is that there is no legitimate official duty of a President—core, perimeter, or otherwise—that requires breaking the law. Yes, you might want to stay prosecution until he's no longer the President. But there should be no immunity. The notion that Nixon immunity should extend to alleged acts that are illegal is, to me, patently absurd.

As noted in Nixon v. Fitzgerald 457 U.S. 731 (1982) (not Ferguson, as I wrote above), "In defining the scope of an official's absolute privilege, this Court has recognized that the sphere of protected action must be related closely to the immunity's justifying purposes." There is a clear justification of purpose in immunizing against the kinds of arguments brought in civil actions. The official acts of a President may result in non-criminal injury to various parties. A President who decides to close a particular executive office puts its employees out of work and subjects them to hardship for which he is clearly responsible, but for which he should not be held legally liable; he would be powerless otherwise.

But I struggle to find a clear justification of purpose that excuses a deliberate criminal act (mens rea and everything) that would be deemed appropriate to a President's duties. What holds for apples should not automatically hold for oranges. Far from immunizing the President against criminal acts in office, the Constitution expressly warns that officers are subject to criminal prosecution.
__________________
‣“Facts are stubborn things.” —John Adams
‣IANAL, but I do have a white wig.
JayUtah is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 05:46 PM   #1091
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Dharug & Gundungurra
Posts: 16,630
Trump wants to be free to emulate Idi Amin, who liked to personally kill, or personally order killed, political prisoners with baseball bats, hammers, machetes, etc. Amin never faced justice for that behaviour, and died at an advanced age.

That sort of immunisation against prosecution. Because that's where his rotting brain goes.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 05:58 PM   #1092
Tero
Illuminator
 
Tero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North American prairie
Posts: 3,477
The sort of things you can't charge Trump for are his stupid decisions. Like covid policy. Or where he was getting political revenge but not using Russia.
__________________
Dominus vo-bisque'em Et cum spear a tu-tu, oh!

Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/
Parody: http://karireport.blogspot.com/
Poll: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...proval-rating/
Tero is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 05:59 PM   #1093
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,746
Is encouraging and supporting violent rioters who have ransacked the Capitol part of the "outer perimeter" of his official duties? Or repeatedly refusing to send official documents, including those labeled Secret and Confidential, to the National Archives?
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 06:05 PM   #1094
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 38,961
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Is encouraging and supporting violent rioters who have ransacked the Capitol part of the "outer perimeter" of his official duties? Or repeatedly refusing to send official documents, including those labeled Secret and Confidential, to the National Archives?
Yes, because he was trying to save the nation from the stolen election. Just ask him.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 06:07 PM   #1095
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,498
Sideshow in any major American metro, nobody bats an eye. Sideshow in DC, everyone loses their mind.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 06:10 PM   #1096
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,746
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Yes, because he was trying to save the nation from the stolen election. Just ask him.
Such a brave little soldier! Thank God his bone spurs have healed enough to enable him to fight this time!
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 11:26 PM   #1097
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 86,957
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Trump wants to be free to emulate Idi Amin, who liked to personally kill, or personally order killed, political prisoners with baseball bats, hammers, machetes, etc. Amin never faced justice for that behaviour, and died at an advanced age.

That sort of immunisation against prosecution. Because that's where his rotting brain goes.
I don't think he literally wants to do those sorts of things. That's not why he wants immunity. He wants immunity because he thinks he's entitled to it. That's it. He's the most important person in the universe, all other people exist to either serve him or to be mocked by him, and any question of prosecution is a personal insult. He's not an Idi Amin-style psychopath who actively enjoys seeing other people suffer. Whether they suffer or not is absolutely irrelevant and not even worth consideration.

That's narcissistic personality disorder.
__________________
We are living in weird times
dominated by weird people
who talk about weird ****

- Seth Meyers
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 12:10 AM   #1098
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,746
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I don't think he literally wants to do those sorts of things. That's not why he wants immunity. He wants immunity because he thinks he's entitled to it. That's it. He's the most important person in the universe, all other people exist to either serve him or to be mocked by him, and any question of prosecution is a personal insult. He's not an Idi Amin-style psychopath who actively enjoys seeing other people suffer. Whether they suffer or not is absolutely irrelevant and not even worth consideration.

That's narcissistic personality disorder.
I agree. Idi Amin was a sadist and killer. Trump enjoys mocking and belittling people because doing so makes him feel better about himself. A narcissist is just someone overcompensating for a very frail sense of self-esteem. It's why he needs the adoring rally crowds and to surround himself with sycophants.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 03:58 AM   #1099
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,738
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I don't think he literally wants to do those sorts of things. That's not why he wants immunity. He wants immunity because he thinks he's entitled to it. That's it. He's the most important person in the universe, all other people exist to either serve him or to be mocked by him, and any question of prosecution is a personal insult. He's not an Idi Amin-style psychopath who actively enjoys seeing other people suffer. Whether they suffer or not is absolutely irrelevant and not even worth consideration.

That's narcissistic personality disorder.
I agree with you to an extent but we know he takes delight in others suffering from his actions for example: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a6795131.html
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 04:04 AM   #1100
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Dharug & Gundungurra
Posts: 16,630
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I don't think he literally wants to do those sorts of things. That's not why he wants immunity. He wants immunity because he thinks he's entitled to it. That's it. He's the most important person in the universe, all other people exist to either serve him or to be mocked by him, and any question of prosecution is a personal insult. He's not an Idi Amin-style psychopath who actively enjoys seeing other people suffer. Whether they suffer or not is absolutely irrelevant and not even worth consideration.

That's narcissistic personality disorder.
His father WAS a psychopath, and viewed the world in pretty much in Amin-style terms - kill your enemies...literally kill. Fred's first arrest was for beating up people while attending a public rally, IIRC. For decades, Fred was in deep with mafia connections too, and the methods they used. It was an attitude Fred instilled repeatedly in his second son.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I agree. Idi Amin was a sadist and killer. Trump enjoys mocking and belittling people because doing so makes him feel better about himself. A narcissist is just someone overcompensating for a very frail sense of self-esteem. It's why he needs the adoring rally crowds and to surround himself with sycophants.
True, but when a raging narcissist schooled by a psychopath like Trump gets humiliated or in any way publicly shamed or put down, the blind revenge streak comes out in full and violent force. His ex-staff often attest to his raging temper-tantrums and steaming threats.

While Donny may not personally like wielding the bat or swinging the machete, he delights in shows of physical violence towards perceived enemies. His rally speeches include encouragements to bash and otherwise harm people he likes picking on. He often hints at Second Amendment solutions in politics, i.e. shooting enemies. His proposed solutions for the border are basically mass detainment and torture. In summary, the guy does like inflicting pain, and the more the better.

Then there's this piece of violent theatre, which he is totally into as well. Of course, if he was REALLY in a fight, Corporal Bonespurs would probably waddle away as fast as he could, or hide behind Mercedes. (Talk about "fake", by the way. )

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015

Last edited by Norman Alexander; Today at 04:05 AM.
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:19 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.