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4th September 2007, 12:59 PM | #41 |
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4th September 2007, 03:50 PM | #42 |
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Cool info Mr. Brown!
Thanks ! |
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4th September 2007, 04:49 PM | #43 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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13th September 2007, 09:38 AM | #44 |
Penultimate Amazing
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News flash, from the Des Moines Register:
Quote:
All right, that was a cheap shot, but this isn't: Chances are excellent that, based upon this "activist's" remarks, he either has not read the ruling that he is so steamed about, or he has not made the first effort to try to understand it. So not only is he a loudmouth, he's an ignorant loudmouth as well. And the punch line is... (wait for it) ... he's quick to say that anybody who doesn't agree with him is stupid. According to the Register, the response to his individual's activity has been laughter. |
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Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice |
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13th September 2007, 09:50 AM | #45 |
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I'm confused. How is this not the very thing the judicial branch should be deciding? It concerns individual rights as they relate to the constitution (state constitution in this case).
The courts have long existed as a check on the power of the majority to deny the rights of the minority. That is one of the most important purposes that they serve. Yet the Right would label any rulings they don't agree with as inappropriate "legislating from the bench" by "activist judges". Isn't this claim completely ridiculous? Without so-called activist judges, what would have become of America's civil rights era? Many of the most important breakthroughs in rights have been the result of judicial rulings. Judges help prevent the tyranny of the majority. By design, the only way to overcome these rulings is to change the constitution. Unfortunately some states have done just that, but at least such a move makes sense from a governmental perspective. |
13th September 2007, 10:17 AM | #46 |
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13th September 2007, 10:29 AM | #47 |
Illuminator
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13th September 2007, 10:38 AM | #48 |
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And if the legislature pass a gay rights bill, then obviously it needs to be vetoed by the governor, because "the people should decide".
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13th September 2007, 11:59 AM | #49 |
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It’s bigotry, plain and simple. Sure they have a wide variety of arguments to back up their position, but the arguments are all either stupid or depend on untestable “Religious” beliefs. And the bible thumpers don’t impress me at all. While they are willing to criss-cross the country trying to ban gay marriage, I have yet to see them devote similar resources to banning shellfish, polyester, or credit cards. This is not obeying the word of God, this is hating gays and using the word of God as an excuse.
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13th September 2007, 08:31 PM | #50 |
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16th January 2008, 02:20 PM | #51 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Further update:
According to the Des Moines Register, a group has decided to try to push the Iowa Legislature toward a constitutional amendment to keep those disgusting homos in their place ... I mean, to prevent same-sex unions. To emphasize that their convictions are based upon something other than evidence of need for such an amendment, the protesters are including a "prayer walk." Some have characterized the "prayer walk" as an inappropriate attempt to influence the Iowa Supreme Court. That's actually quite funny. Knowing the members of the Supreme Court, the effect that this event is likely to have on them is about as close to zero as can be. Not a one of them will let fear of impeachment, lack of retention or other political stress influence their analysis of the case. That's just not how this court does business. A few years ago, the Iowa appellate courts made some high-profile decisions in a case that received nation-wide attention. There was considerable protesting at the time, with public demonstrations. There were letter-writing campaigns to influence the judges' decisions. And the Iowa judges did what they thought was right, even as unpopular as it was. Although lay commentators around the country lined up against them, the Iowa judges said they decided according to the law, and they ignored the demonstrators and letters. One judge was quoted in the local newspaper as saying that he would read enough of a letter to see what it was about, and if it pertained to a pending matter, he would unceremoniously throw it into the trash. The Iowa decision eventually held up, and the case was at an end, despite the outcome being highly unpopular. (Read a brief summary of this case at the Time Magazine web site.) In light of this history, it is unlikely that a well-mannered public demonstration will have any effect upon consideration of the legal issues that the Court must face. |
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Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice |
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2nd April 2009, 12:19 PM | #52 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Further Update:
The Iowa Supreme Court's decision is expected tomorrow, 3 April 2009. |
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Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice |
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2nd April 2009, 01:05 PM | #53 |
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2nd April 2009, 01:17 PM | #54 |
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2nd April 2009, 02:15 PM | #55 |
Papa Funkosophy
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And 2009 > 2007
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2nd April 2009, 02:23 PM | #56 |
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-- Everything starts somewhere, although many physicists disagree. There is the constant desire to find out where - where is the point where it all began...The philosopher Didactylos suggested an alternative hypothesis: 'things just happen, what the hell'. |
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2nd April 2009, 03:22 PM | #57 |
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Because, in NY, the "Supreme Court" only references it being "supreme" to other trial-level courts, like civil court, traffic court, housing court, village court, etc. See? That wasn't confusing at all.
New York simply set up its court systems in the 1600's, well before the US Constitution declared the Judiciary to be embodied in a "Supreme Court of the United States" with the trial courts below it. In most States the trial court is the "Superior Court", which is inferior to the Appellate Courts (which are inferior to the Supreme Court). They are called that because they are "superior" to the other trial courts. New York just picked "supreme" instead of "superior". The federal courts are the least confusing. They named their courts after jurisdictions. The lower courts accept all cases in a judicial district and this are called "District Courts". The appellate courts are divided into circuits and are thus called "Circuit Courts". And they are all inferior to the highest court in the land, the "Supreme Court". (Well, except there are separate Bankruptcy Courts in each district... okay. It's a little confusing.) |
2nd April 2009, 06:08 PM | #58 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The link to where the opinion is expected to be is:
http://www.iowacourts.gov/Supreme_Court/Opinions/ Click "Most Recent Opinions." As of this writing, the opinion is not there yet. There is a notice, however, that an opinion in the case of Varnum v. Brien is expected to be filed on April 3. As indicated in a story in the Des Moines Register, the Court is gearing up for the inevitable protests, whatever the result may be.
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Nevertheless, chances are that folks will look first at the cover page of the opinion. "AFFIRMED" means that the lower court's decision was upheld and prohibitions on gay marriage are unconstitutional under the Iowa constitution. But if the result is anything else ("REVERSED AND REMANDED," AFFIRMED IN PART, REVERSED IN PART AND REMANDED," etc.), then that means: You have to read the opinion to see what the Court did. It does NOT necessarily mean that the gay marriage ban is constitutional. Those skimming the opinion are also usually interested in how many justices voted each way. In Iowa, there are split decisions, just as there are in the US Supreme Court. But Iowa has a history of trying to issue unanimous opinions in as many cases as possible. (A few years ago, Chief Justice Roberts announced that he would try to achieve more uniformity of assent to opinions from the US Supreme Court. So far, he has failed. But Iowa has a history of success.) If the decision is "AFFIRMED," I think it is possible but tending toward unlikely that the decision will be unanimous. If the decision is anything else, I think it is possible but moderately likely that the decision will be unanimous. |
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Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice |
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2nd April 2009, 10:06 PM | #59 |
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3rd April 2009, 01:00 AM | #60 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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3rd April 2009, 07:34 AM | #61 |
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3rd April 2009, 07:48 AM | #62 |
diabolical globalist
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Originally Posted by New York Times
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3rd April 2009, 07:57 AM | #63 |
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3rd April 2009, 08:57 AM | #65 |
diabolical globalist
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3rd April 2009, 09:06 AM | #66 |
Penultimate Amazing
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As has been reported, the cover page says "AFFIRMED."
The decision was UNANIMOUS. The number of pages of the opinion was 69. I'm sure that was a conicidence. I have the decision in front of me. I have read it once, and will read it again before commenting in detail. I note, however, that the Court hits many of the questions discussed in this thread. In a sense, the Court went further than Judge Hanson. In particular, the Court went out of its way to mention religious objections to same-sex marriage (see the discussion beginning on page 63). Further, the Court dropped a big fat hint to the legislature saying, don't try to legislate this decision out of the books; that won't work. The only body that can overturn this decision is the People, by amending the Constitution. |
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Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice |
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3rd April 2009, 09:16 AM | #67 |
diabolical globalist
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3rd April 2009, 11:35 AM | #68 |
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If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him. Lupus is Lupus tor central scrutineezer |
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3rd April 2009, 11:39 AM | #69 |
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Yay for Iowa!
...Now there's a phrase you don't use every day... |
3rd April 2009, 11:42 AM | #70 |
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Thank you, Brown, for filling this thread with what the kids these days are calling "win."
My friend and classmate, who follows the gay marriage fight very closely in every state, informs me that Iowa has a relatively difficult constitution to amend (that is, it can't be amended simply by referendum). So this decision should "stick" a little longer than, say, California's. As in, permanently, we may hope. |
3rd April 2009, 11:43 AM | #71 |
Penultimate Amazing
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One of my dictums is: "Reaction to news is not news."
This dictum is a criticism of local news organizations, particular local television news organizations, that need video to make up their daily programs. Whenever there is a momentous event of any kind, some schmuck reporter selects people off the street and asks for their reaction to the event. During the news organization's broadcast, there is a story about the event itself (which IS news), followed by "public reaction" (which is NOT news). Today, however, reaction to the news of the Iowa Supreme Court's decision does appear to be news. There seems to be a pervasive theme in the reactions of those who disagree with the decision: the disagreement is based heavily, if not exclusively, upon religious grounds. To paraphrase Justice Cady, the argument that "God says so" carries no weight in a court of law. The reaction to news is news here, because true colors are being shown. All this talk about secular justification for the Iowa statute is largely, if not exclusively, pretense. The basic objections to equal treatment of gays are religious. In the minds of many, it is the State's job to enforce the will of the Almighty--as they see it. |
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Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice |
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3rd April 2009, 01:05 PM | #72 |
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3rd April 2009, 06:01 PM | #73 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Justice Mark Cady authored the opinion. He may take fire for being the author, but as the opinion is unanimous (and since Justice Cady's term runs through 2016), other members of the Court are likely to feel some displeasure as well.
It is noteworthy that the opinion is in the name of Justice Cady and not an anonymous "per curium" (by the Court) opinion. It shows a certain degree of integrity to put one's name on a document that will raise the ire of thousands of people. The opinion begins, as do many judicial opinions, by reciting the facts of the case, how the case got to the district court, how it proceeded through the district court, and how it got to the Supreme Court. The opinion then discusses, as do many judicial opinions, the legal standard of review. In this case, the ruling can be upheld only if the plaintiffs were entitled to prevail as a matter of law. If there was an issue of material fact, then the matter would have to be sent back to the district court for additional factfinding. Part III of the opinion is where things start to get interesting. Fully aware that various citizens and commentators will brand the opinion as "activist" merely because they disagree with the result, Justice Cady offers a brief yet polite lecture about the Supreme Court's role. At times, the Iowa Supreme Court's opinion reads less like a legal opinion and more like a Civics textbook:
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The notion of tradition appears many places in the opinion. Justice Cady invests considerable effort in describing that an idea may be held for a very long time, but that does not necessarily mean it is constitutional:
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In a footnote, however, Justice Cady remembers that not all of the Iowa Supreme Court's decisions have been so supportive of civil rights. He cites a case from 1910 that authorized discrimination against women in the conduct of business. But he added poetically that the Iowa cases on slavery, segregation and women's rights …
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But there is also a level of "intermediate scrutiny" between the two. When applying intermediate scrutiny to a statute, the Court looks at whether there is a very good reason for the disparate treatment. There must be an important governmental interest at stake, and the difference in treatment "must be genuine and must not depend on broad Generalizations." In Iowa, equal protection cases based upon gender or illegitimacy have usually involved intermediate scrutiny. Before getting to what level of scrutiny will be applied, the Court discussed the facts in more detail. At this point, Justice Cady provided some commentary that may be ammunition for those who see the decision as "activist":
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Although Justice Cady discusses at length how the appropriate level is to be determined, in the end, he leaves the issue open:
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Applying intermediate scrutiny, Justice Cady addressed the rationales put forward to support the same-sex marriage ban. Justice Cady called the argument that government should maintain "traditional" marriage for its own sake an "empty analysis." In regard to whether the ban promotes an optimal environment to raise children, Justice Cady acknowledged that this is an "important governmental objective." Expert opinions that held that different-sex marriages are better than same-sex marriages were "thoughtful and sincere," [but] were largely unsupported by reliable scientific studies." "If the marriage statute was truly focused on optimal parenting," Justice Cady observed, "many classifications of people would be excluded, not merely gay and lesbian people." Like who? Child abusers, sexual predators, parents neglecting to provide child support, and violent felons can all be straight, can all get married and can all be really horrible parents. Besides being unable to keep unfit people for being parents, the statute also is flawed because it protects the rights of couples who have no intention or ability to have children… as long as they're opposite-sex couples. Another justification offered in support of the statute was that it promotes procreation. Assuming for the moment that the State of Iowa has such an interest, is it a good reason for the statute? Justice Cady felt the link between the statute and procreation was tenuous:
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It is unusual for a Supreme Court opinion to go out of its way to address arguments that are not properly before it. I can think of no previous Iowa Supreme Court opinion in which the Court has ever done anything like this. Basically, Justice Cady addresses what appears to be the REAL reason underlying the same-sex marriage ban: religion.
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Justice Cady continues:
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The concluding words of the opinion are:
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Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice |
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3rd April 2009, 06:34 PM | #74 |
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I am not a fan of same-sex marriage. I think marriage should between a man and a woman and same-sex couples should get EVERYTHING but the title of married.
That said, if the judges in Iowa feel that a ban on gay marriage violates the Iowa state constitution, then that is their job and I respect that. I suggest the people of Iowa, if they do not like this ruling, change their constitution. |
3rd April 2009, 07:18 PM | #75 |
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As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn |
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4th April 2009, 12:25 AM | #76 |
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seperate but equal is considered unequal, Parky, for .. well, historical reasons.
That said... |
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Don't mind me. |
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4th April 2009, 09:15 AM | #77 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The Almighty is already expressing disapproval with the ruling. In Iowa today, it is ... raining.
In April. There might even be flooding. Flooding hasn't occurred in Iowa for ages and ages, well, almost a year now. When the weather warms up, there might even be tornadoes. |
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Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice |
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4th April 2009, 09:28 AM | #78 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Damn! I should've applied for the million dollars, because I could have predicted with 100 percent accuracy the following (from various news services):
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Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice |
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4th April 2009, 09:46 AM | #79 |
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4th April 2009, 01:20 PM | #80 |
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I vote #4. Although to be fair to the Republicans, these social issues are the only area where they have gotten any traction with the voters. Which is why Democrats did what they could to keep gay marriage off the ballot in 2008.
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