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Tags murder cases , Oscar Pistorius , South Africa cases

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Old 5th February 2024, 01:08 PM   #1041
Samson
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
His defense was always crazy, to me it sounded like he was saying, "I can't be conficted of murdering her because I thought I was murdering someone else."
The difference between having a fight with your friend and killing them in a rage, and defending your friend from an outside assailant.
The two acts are not equal.
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Old 5th February 2024, 01:26 PM   #1042
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The difference between having a fight with your friend and killing them in a rage, and defending your friend from an outside assailant.
The two acts are not equal.
Very true. Also not equal is shooting at imaginary attackers that you do not even imagine seeing.

I mean, if Yosemite Sam here even thought he saw a shadowy human figure in an unexpected place in his home who appeared to be pointing a gun, a little bit of latitude could be given. But no.
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Last edited by Thermal; 5th February 2024 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 5th February 2024, 07:29 PM   #1043
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The difference between having a fight with your friend and killing them in a rage, and defending your friend from an outside assailant.
The two acts are not equal.
Great, the person who would shoot a girlfriend in a rage is a danger to all future girlfriends, but the trigger-happy gun-nut with paranoia is a danger to everyone within reach. That's hardly better.
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Old 5th February 2024, 07:38 PM   #1044
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The difference between having a fight with your friend and killing them in a rage, and defending your friend from an outside assailant.
The two acts are not equal.
Very different for the friend.

Both still murder. Especially since hiding in a toilet room does not make one an assailant. That implies at least attempted assault.
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Old 6th February 2024, 01:28 AM   #1045
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Have you lived in South Africa?
They say don't try it. We have many escapees in New Zealand.
What Oscar did was perfectly rational in a war zone.
IF
He was protecting Reeva.
Have you lived in South Africa?
Pistorius lived in a gated estate in an affluent area. The furthest thing from a war zone that one could imagine. It seems to me you're imagining reasons to excuse his actions.
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Old 6th February 2024, 01:55 AM   #1046
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Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
Have you lived in South Africa?
Pistorius lived in a gated estate in an affluent area. The furthest thing from a war zone that one could imagine. It seems to me you're imagining reasons to excuse his actions.
Incorrect.
I was persuaded by analysis of the phone calls Pistorious made after the shooting.
Judge Masipa, a "hanging" judge of men who abuse women was persuaded that he perceived an intruder.
Indeed I think the forum owner found similar.

Now, why can't we debate this sensibly?
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Old 6th February 2024, 02:19 AM   #1047
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I was persuaded by analysis of the phone calls Pistorious made after the shooting.
Ironic. Lundy's behaviour after the murders was irrelevant, but Pistorius' reveals the truth.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Now, why can't we debate this sensibly?
Not if you're in the discussion.
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Old 6th February 2024, 04:22 AM   #1048
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Incorrect.
I was persuaded by analysis of the phone calls Pistorious made after the shooting.
Judge Masipa, a "hanging" judge of men who abuse women was persuaded that he perceived an intruder.
Indeed I think the forum owner found similar.

Now, why can't we debate this sensibly?
How about arguing it honestly, for a start?
You've implied that South Africa is a war zone and that Pistorius was justified in his actions by virtue of that assertion. Of course that assertion is nonsense, so now you've blthely ignored that and pivoted to claiming that the judge was biased and that your analysis of the phone calls has convinced you of his innocence.

By all means, tell us what your analysis of his phone calls tell you.

03:20 the phone was used to make an internet connection. This could include use of social networks like Twitter, Facebook, or WhatsApp.
03:20 Pistorius called 082911, an emergency services number. The call lasted 66 seconds.
This was followed by another internet connection,
03:21 a call to a number ending in 6797 - security at the Silver Woods estate.
03:21 Pistorius called 121, his voice mailbox number.
03.22 Silver Woods' security called Pistorius back.
More internet connections followed, and then, at 03:55, Pistorius called his friend Justin Divaris.
04:01 - he called his older brother Carl.
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Old 6th February 2024, 02:13 PM   #1049
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I am watching the Dateline episode about Pistorius.

Simply put; I believe he is guilty of murder. I believe he is mentally ill.
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Old 6th February 2024, 03:54 PM   #1050
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The part of his testimony I simply refused to believe was that he got out of bed, which was lit by an external light, without noticing that Reeva was not there. To me it is beyond reasonable doubt that he lied about this. To me it was a premeditated murder (he has a history of violence and had witnesses talk about angry displays from him towards Reeva). He got off lightly.

Yes he is a murderer, but not of a fictitious burglar, but of his girlfriend.
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Old 6th February 2024, 04:28 PM   #1051
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The part of his testimony I simply refused to believe was that he got out of bed, which was lit by an external light, without noticing that Reeva was not there. To me it is beyond reasonable doubt that he lied about this. To me it was a premeditated murder (he has a history of violence and had witnesses talk about angry displays from him towards Reeva). He got off lightly.

Yes he is a murderer, but not of a fictitious burglar, but of his girlfriend.
Agree. For me, her admission of feeling so frightened of Pistorius gave me the creeps. I just don't see that he has a defense. But why did she stay with him? Fear?
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Old 7th February 2024, 05:11 PM   #1052
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The part of his testimony I simply refused to believe was that he got out of bed, which was lit by an external light, without noticing that Reeva was not there. To me it is beyond reasonable doubt that he lied about this. To me it was a premeditated murder (he has a history of violence and had witnesses talk about angry displays from him towards Reeva). He got off lightly.

Yes he is a murderer, but not of a fictitious burglar, but of his girlfriend.

I fully agree that this is clearly the most likely scenario of what factually happened. I think the two of them had a blazing row in the bedroom; she possibly said she was going to leave him (which would have ignited his rage); he then tried to physically assault her; she then ran to the toilet with her phone, intending to get to s place where (she thought) Pistorius couldn't attack her, and from where she could call either a friend/family member or the police; he pursued her on his stumps, having picked up his handgun; they had a short further shouting argument either side of the toilet door; he fired into the door in a jealous, narcissistic rage.

But let's not forget that 1) judicial verdicts and "the factual truth" are not always synonymous by any means; and 2) judicial verdicts have to be beyond all reasonable doubt.

Personally, I don't think it can be proven beyond all reasonable doubt that Pistorius knew it was Reeva hiding behind that toilet door when he fired the shots - even though I believe that he did in fact know it was Reeva.

But..... fortunately in law, Pistorius could be (and was) correctly found guilty of murder regardless. All the law has to prove is a) that he knew there was a human behind that door, in the very small toilet space (which Pistorius freely admitted), b) that Pistorius must have known the military-grade ammunition he fired from his powerful revolver was likely to kill or seriously injure whoever was behind that door (obviously true), and c) that Pistorius was lying when he claimed to be in immediate danger of attack (which could be proven by the combination of the door having remained closed and locked until after the shooting, and Pistorius not having claimed that whoever was behind the door was shouting threats of imminently bursting open the door and attacking him (Pistorius)).

I get that Reeva's family find it hard to come to terms with the fact that even though Pistorius was convicted of her murder, he can still maintain the legal pretence - with reference to the trial verdict itself - that he thought he was shooting at an "intruder". And from what I know of his narcissistic (and worse) personality, I'd say that he's never, ever going to admit to what truly happened that night. But at least he ultimately received just punishment and removal from society for what he did. Whether, however, he was in any meaningful sense rehabilitated or reformed while in prison.... I have my doubts.

Last edited by LondonJohn; 7th February 2024 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 7th February 2024, 08:32 PM   #1053
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Yes, very good summary. In my post I said I think a deliberate murder of Reeva is beyond reasonable doubt, but I understand the realities. The prosecution went with the lesser murder charge because if they went for more and lost, Oscar goes free.
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Old 12th February 2024, 01:26 AM   #1054
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I am sorry but I have only skimmed the thousands of previous postings, and I have not found a clear answer to this: Is it legal in South Africa to shoot an intruder who has locked himself up in a bathroom?

I live in a country where an intruder can sue you if your dog attacks him while he robs your flat, and you cannot prove that you are in mortal danger.

I would have thought that shouting to the intruder that he would be shot if he tried to leave the bathroom, and then calling the police would be the kind of action called for.

But on the other hand, I know that in the US there are places where you can be legally shot if you stand unarmed on somebody else’s lawn.
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Old 12th February 2024, 02:40 AM   #1055
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Here's a link to the judgment.
Here's a link to a description of the law under which Pistorius was found guilty.

From a separate article: You can only rely on self-defence to exclude unlawfulness if an attack on your life (or the life of another), on your property or other similar interest has commenced or is imminent. This is an objective test, so where no attack actually occurred, one cannot rely on self-defence to justify the killing of another person, which you thought was necessary to defend yourself. No such attack occurred or was imminent in this case.
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Old 12th February 2024, 11:07 AM   #1056
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Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
Here's a link to the judgment.
Here's a link to a description of the law under which Pistorius was found guilty.
Thanks a lot. The dolus eventualis concept is interesting, and I am shocked that the judge regarded it as a mitigating circumstance that Pistorius apparently was shocked when he found that he had shot his wife. Apparently, it would have been OK if it had been somebody else.
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Old 13th February 2024, 11:49 PM   #1057
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
Thanks a lot. The dolus eventualis concept is interesting, and I am shocked that the judge regarded it as a mitigating circumstance that Pistorius apparently was shocked when he found that he had shot his wife. Apparently, it would have been OK if it had been somebody else.
That is an absurdly disingenuous observation that pervades this thread.
I don't know if Pistorius knew it was Reeva or believed it was an intruder, but stating the offences were fungible is totally ridiculous.
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Old 14th February 2024, 02:21 AM   #1058
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Speaking of disingenuous...
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