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Tags accusations , politician , transgender

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Old 13th February 2024, 11:52 AM   #81
plague311
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
When you are so obsessed with an enemy you find then when I they aren’t there and then sic the goons on them. I think the term fits.
I still haven't even found out if this woman had a child in the competition. Was she actually there to watch her kid play, just to watch the game, or was she there looking for a problem.

From the description of this woman I wouldn't be shocked if she went JUST to find someone to target.
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Old 13th February 2024, 12:06 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I still haven't even found out if this woman had a child in the competition. Was she actually there to watch her kid play, just to watch the game, or was she there looking for a problem.

From the description of this woman I wouldn't be shocked if she went JUST to find someone to target.

Just looking for a problem. She saw a picture of the girl on the team’s Facebook page apropos of nothing, reposted it on her own Facebook, and added comments questioning the girl’s gender. She has a long history of doing things like that. Her interest is not that of a parent. She’s an elected member of the school board.
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Old 13th February 2024, 01:49 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
When you are so obsessed with an enemy you find then when I they aren’t there and then sic the goons on them. I think the term fits.
I thought psychopath and sociopath were distinct descriptors, the former involving physical violence, so I checked and found:

"Psychopath vs. sociopath
“Psychopath” and “sociopath” are often used interchangeably to informally describe someone with ASPD. Since sociopath is also not an official diagnosis, it typically joins psychopath under the umbrella diagnosis of ASPD. There is no clinical difference between the two terms."

That is helpful for me to learn. Yes she could fit that definition because she doubled down on the physical presentation of the girl instead of making an unconditional apology and retraction.
I am still not convinced that the fact of males generally popping up in female sports is not a mitigating factor in her original allegation.
It should NEVER happen is a view held by Riley Gaines and most people with a beating heart. The women in these matters should NEVER be victims of policies constructed by men.
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Last edited by Samson; 13th February 2024 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 14th February 2024, 02:55 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Yes she could fit that definition because she doubled down on the physical presentation of the girl instead of making an unconditional apology and retraction.
Ultimately it's neither productive nor necessary to decide whether, or in what way, Natalie Cline might be mentally ill. We don't have to stoop to name-calling in order to justify why she should be removed from office.

Initially she doubled down. Then she deleted the post and offered an apology to the girl's family. The family opined in media appearances that they did not feel the apology was sincere. They have requested that Cline have no further contact with them or their children.

However, if we look beyond that and address the point you raised: Yes, you could consider that immediately failing to recognize the circumstances and consequences of her behavior could qualify as some sort of -pathy. But in my mind the goal is not to arrive at some armchair psychiatric diagnosis. While we might agree informally that the woman might be considered to have some mental illness, my goal is to address her behavior simply as it stands, decide whether it's appropriate for her elected position, and decide how we should move forward.

The salient evidence along those lines is not that Natalie Cline doubled down in this one instance of misbehavior. It's that this is the latest in a three-year series of similar misbehavior. She has doubled-, tripled-, and octupled-down on this pattern of abuse. She has had ample warning that her constituents, her elected leadership, and the people of the state she serves do not tolerate her abusive behavior. Does that qualify as some kind of -pathy? Perhaps. But in my mind it simply disqualifies her from a position of trust and authority.

Quote:
I am still not convinced that the fact of males generally popping up in female sports is not a mitigating factor in her original allegation.
No.

Natalie Cline is no sort of victim. There is no "original allegation." There is a longstanding, well-documented pattern of abuse in which she singles out people for public humiliation on no more solid a basis than her belief and speculation about them. She has been censured and reprimanded numerous times for acting either in contravention of discoverable fact, or in reckless disregard of it. This has cause measurable harm to innocent people.

Cline serves in a political and governmental environment that generally supports her beliefs. Her colleagues in the elected board positions generally agree with her policy objectives, but disagree with her methods of enacting them.

Utah has a well-established legal and administrative regime to prevent athletes from "popping up" where they don't belong, as you say. While there is necessarily some confidentiality regarding the operation and effectiveness of these measures, we know that this mechanism has selectively accepted and rejected applicants. There is no need for Cline to implement her personal gender-policing policy in the abusive way she has chosen.

Ultimately Natalie Cline is an adult individual who is solely and proximally responsible for her behavior.

Quote:
The women in these matters should NEVER be victims of policies constructed by men.
That is not an issue in this case. The victim is a cisgendered minor female. The perpetrator is a cisgendered adult female. Natalie Cline's previous victims have been cisgendered individuals of all genders. The policy at issue is not anything more than the product of Cline's personal beliefs and apparently poor impulse control.
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Old 14th February 2024, 04:50 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I thought psychopath and sociopath were distinct descriptors, the former involving physical violence, so I checked and found:
A simple google search does not give you an understanding of mental heath disorders, especially when you start from such a deeply flawed premise.
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Old 15th February 2024, 04:57 PM   #86
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The Utah legislature voted today to censure Natalie Cline. They did not impeach her. Censure carries no binding consequences. The family of the victim had advocated impeachment.

Separately, the Utah State School Board has stripped her of all her duties on the board and has unanimously passed a resolution requesting that she resign. While this effectively denies her any power of office, the problem remains that none of her misbehavior involves a misuse of her authority. She misuses her stature as an elected official to endanger innocent people.

She is running for re-election in November.
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Old 16th February 2024, 02:17 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
As a biologist, my position is that sex is not a spectrum, but that some sexually linked traits are. Also, intersex conditions exist, but do not represent a "spectrum."
Yea but then you have people crazily demanding that the infertile are not sexless.
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Old 16th February 2024, 02:20 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by crazycat View Post
Has this changed? There have been testosterone limits in women's sports for many years, at least in the ones requiring strength. Because some cis women tried to cheat by unnaturally bulking up. Cheating in sports isn't just a guy thing.
Or by being disgusting freaks with higher testosterone. Clearly this should also be applied to male athletes so that the overly testosteroneed freaks are barred from competing.

We need to strip Michael Phelps of his medals for being a freak.
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Old 16th February 2024, 04:03 PM   #89
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One of the things that seems a feature of such debates as this is the dispute about just exactly where the bounds of biology are, and we seem to forget that what we are talking about here is society. Society is complex, messy, diverse, and, in ways that science can never be, made up as we go along.

We pass on some aspects of biology and not on others, because there is in fact no overriding natural law that says we must follow any. Various societies at various times have drawn up rules regarding who can do what and why, sometimes on the basis of sex, other times on race, ethnicity, or caste. Some may make sense in conjunction with other social values, such as whether we care who wins a race or whether we believe the gods hate some of us, or whether our current lives depend on previous ones, and who knows what else, but there is no law here.

You can assert that sex is binary, and study the genetics, and counter all the arguments and apparent exceptions with astute precision and charts, and still, when thinking about how you would like the society you live in to work, decide that it doesn't matter.
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Old 17th February 2024, 08:40 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
She is running for re-election in November.
Cline has indicated she will continue to run for re-election. Predictably, she's claiming she's the real victim here: that people are focused on her allegations and stunts and have forgotten her impeccable record of protecting children from the evils of wokeness. The board on which she sits has stripped her of all her duties, although she still retains a vote.
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