IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 2nd June 2023, 04:30 AM   #281
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,072
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
What I object to is them going a step further and demanding their idiotic fairytales be part of school curricula. I don't accept it from christian religions, Hinduism, Pasifika or Chinese culture or Pagans, and I'm not about to accept it from Maori.
Evidence that 'idiotic fairytales' are being taught as fact in NZ school science curricula?
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2023, 01:07 PM   #282
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Evidence that 'idiotic fairytales' are being taught as fact in NZ school science curricula?
Hint . . .

"demanding their idiotic fairytales be part of school curricula" ("be" as in "become")

and . . .

"are being taught as fact in NZ school science curricula"

are not the same thing.

In other words . . .

"demanding they be" is not the same as "are being".

ETA - I suspect The Atheist might provide evidence of "are being" in any case.

Evidence that you can read and comprehend simple English?

Perhaps you might understand better if it was expressed in Te Reo Maori (aka - Pidgin English Maori)?
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

Last edited by ynot; 2nd June 2023 at 01:49 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2023, 01:51 PM   #283
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,498
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Thanks for getting that out in the open - it's all about 'us' vs 'them'. Nothing to do with racism mind you - oh no.
This whole controversy has been 'us' vs 'them' since the beginning, by Maori design.

Literally their complaint is that there's not enough 'us Maori' in 'them pakeha's'
teaching of epistemology.

(I apologize for the bad grammar; my priority was to keep the framing as clear as possible.)

The 'us' vs 'them' framework of the controversy was never ever a secret. It was always intended by the Maori advocates, from the very beginning.


ETA: Not only do you raise an utterly banal point, but in your rush to police TA's tone you completely fail to address the substance of his claim: That pakeha epistemology confers substantial advantages on Maori society, and that Maori epistemology is incapable of realizing or sustaining those advantages without ongoing pakeha presence.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.

Last edited by theprestige; 2nd June 2023 at 01:55 PM.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2023, 01:57 PM   #284
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,498
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Evidence that 'idiotic fairytales' are being taught as fact in NZ school science curricula?
TA isn't saying they're being taught (though it seems to me that they are). He's saying Maori are demanding they be taught.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2023, 03:07 AM   #285
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,923
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
ETA - I suspect The Atheist might provide evidence of "are being" in any case.
Things are perilously close to that, with insanity like Maori possibly discovering Antarctica given equal footing to Bellingshausen and Lazarev.

Right now, it's not so much as what's being taught as what's not allowed to be taught, chief among which is that the majority of deaths in the Land Wars were Maori killing other Maori, settling old scores. Kids are taught that Europeans were responsible for the deaths, and that is pure ********.

Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Perhaps you might understand better if it was expressed in Te Reo Maori (aka - Pidgin English Maori)?


Oh boy, they're gonna track you down and string you up by the balls!

My mate uses that tack very frequently, and it's entirely true. Maori had so few words that most of their language is Maoricised English words. You're definitely not allowed to say that, or suggest that the paucity of words means that 21st century translation of Te Tiriti is nonsense.

The government using Maori names for departments always struck me as hilarious when you have to make up words in Maori to express the English term they had no concept of. Te Taaari Taake, Te Hiranga Tangata, Manatu Aorere being the best of the bunch.

Don't even get me started on mathematics.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2023, 01:58 PM   #286
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Things are perilously close to that, with insanity like Maori possibly discovering Antarctica given equal footing to Bellingshausen and Lazarev.
Some “Maori wonderfullness” nutter was recently claiming that “the Maori way of thinking” can/does explain the entire Universe.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Right now, it's not so much as what's being taught as what's not allowed to be taught, chief among which is that the majority of deaths in the Land Wars were Maori killing other Maori, settling old scores. Kids are taught that Europeans were responsible for the deaths, and that is pure ********.
Brown-washed Maori history never mentions historical truths like slavery, infanticide, cannibalism, utu, and the exploits of Te Rauparaha, etc. But it was a bit naughty of Whitey to give modern European muskets to Neolithic Maori that previously only had sharpened shells, bones, sticks and stones to break bones and kill each other. Perhaps bows and arrows would’ve been a more appropriate tech leap to begin with.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Oh boy, they're gonna track you down and string you up by the balls!

My mate uses that tack very frequently, and it's entirely true. Maori had so few words that most of their language is Maoricised English words. You're definitely not allowed to say that, or suggest that the paucity of words means that 21st century translation of Te Tiriti is nonsense.

The government using Maori names for departments always struck me as hilarious when you have to make up words in Maori to express the English term they had no concept of. Te Taaari Taake, Te Hiranga Tangata, Manatu Aorere being the best of the bunch.
Using the English alphabet to express the purely oral Maori language makes every written Maori word pidgin English.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Don't even get me started on mathematics.
Maori mathematics don’t count.
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

Last edited by ynot; 3rd June 2023 at 02:19 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2023, 06:32 PM   #287
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
Many cultures throughout history have experienced periods that involved practices such as slavery, cannibalism, infanticide, and other abhorrent "Ways of Thinking" that were considered "normal" during those times. The concern shared by myself and others is not that the Maori people had such a past, or even that it existed less than 200 years ago.

The issue arises when certain politically influential part Maori (there are no full-blooded Maori today), and some socially woke, virtue signaling, Whitey academics, present a distorted and dishonest version of the actual "Maori Way of Thinking” at the time. This narrative paints a romanticised "Maori Wonderfullness" picture of Maori tribes living together in peace and harmony and all at one with nature, disregarding the truth of the complex and abhorrent realities of the time. To make things even worse, they want to include this brown-washed, fantasy "Maori Way of Thinking” into science education as established and accepted fact.
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

Last edited by ynot; 3rd June 2023 at 06:59 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2023, 06:53 PM   #288
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,072
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
This narrative paints a romanticised "Maori Wonderfullness" picture of Maori tribes living together in peace and harmony and at one with nature, disregarding the truth of the complex and abhorrent realities of the time. To make things even worse, they want to include this brown-washed, fantasy "Maori Way of ThinkingĒ into science education as accepted fact.
The claim was that 'they' want to teach (Maori) Creationism in science classes. I am still waiting to see the evidence of this.

If Maori 'ways of thinking' are being 'brown-washed' then it's just following the pattern of white-washing Europeans applied to themeselves.

But I don't care about that. Everyone romanticizes the past. What's important is how we think and act in the future. Some people here seem to think accusing Maori of being cannibals who wouldn't last 5 minutes without the guidance of a superior race is the right way to get them involved in science. As if what we have been using science for is a shining example...
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2023, 07:56 PM   #289
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
The claim was that 'they' want to teach (Maori) Creationism in science classes. I am still waiting to see the evidence of this.
“They” are mainly “certain politically influential part Maori (there are no full-blooded Maori today), and some socially woke, virtue signaling, Whitey academics ”.

So . . . Certain politically influential part Maori (there are no full-blooded Maori today), and some socially woke, virtue signaling, Whitey academics want a fantasy version of the Neolithic “Maori Way of Thinking” to be included and taught in modern science education. Maori Creationism and other deluded Neolithic Maori paranormal beliefs are spiritual components of “The Maori Way of Thinking”, and as such have no place in science.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
If Maori 'ways of thinking' are being 'brown-washed' then it's just following the pattern of white-washing Europeans applied to themeselves.
Give an example of a single piece of white-washed “European Way of Thinking” from when Europeans were Neolithic that anyone wants included in modern science education.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But I don't care about that. Everyone romanticizes the past. What's important is how we think and act in the future. Some people here seem to think accusing Maori of being cannibals who wouldn't last 5 minutes without the guidance of a superior race is the right way to get them involved in science. As if what we have been using science for is a shining example…
Maori cannibalism is an historic fact, not an accusation. Just like cannibalism is an historic fact of many other cultures.

Including spiritualism, religion and other paranormal beliefs into science might make science more interesting to paranormal believers that might not value or understand science, but doing so would destroy the very foundations and purposes of science. Science isn't about pleasing, entertaining or being agreeable and nice to people.

There are far, far more shining example uses of science than not. Give a shinning example use of paranormal beliefs.

I bet you believe in “The Wisdom of The Ancients”.
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

Last edited by ynot; 3rd June 2023 at 09:43 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2023, 08:19 PM   #290
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 44,981
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
The claim was that 'they' want to teach (Maori) Creationism in science classes. I am still waiting to see the evidence of this.
You seem to have forgotten this:

Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Sad thing is they are, this is a preview of an NZ school textbook, the hosting website is that of a NZ educational publishing company.


The example page (124) is pure unadulterated creationism, just not Christian creationism.



https://scipad.co.nz/Digital%20previ...as1.html#p=124
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2023, 12:03 AM   #291
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,520
I don't know about Roger Ramjets, but I hadn't forgotten. However, the last time I saw it, I could only read the headlines, which didn't seem to support the idea that it was "pure, unadulterated creationism": Te Ao Māori - The Māori Worldview.

This time, I was at home and got hold of a magnifying glass:
Quote:
In most societies, humans are seen as separate and dominant over nature. Natural resources are seen as something that can be exploited for our benefit, and often, little regard is given to the effects of human actions on the environment.
Like many indigenous people around the world, Māori see themselves as inseparably related and connected to nature. People, plants and animals are all descendants of Ranginui (the sky father) and Papatuanuku (the earth mother) and their children. Therefore, humans are linked and related to all aspects of the natural world.

As the headline says, this is a presentation of the Māori worldview. In the last two sentences, it goes on to say that living creatures "are all descendants" instead of saying 'are all seen as descendants', and "humans are linked and related to" instead of saying 'humans are seen as linked and related to'.

However, after having established that this is about the Māori worldview, this is also how an article about, for instance, Greek mythology would go. At one point, after saying that we are talking about Greek mythology, about how the ancient Greeks viewed the world, it is implied that when you say that "Zeus is the child of Cronus and Rhea" (Wikipedia), it still means that Zeus as well as his parents are mythological creatures. It isn't necessary to point out in every new sentence that this is how the Greeks saw it.

So no, the two pages are not "pure unadulterated creationism." In fact, they are as little "pure unadulterated creationism" as the Wikipedia page about Zeus is pure unadulterated ... I don't know ... heathenism?!

There are 36 pages in the chapter Life and the Taiao. I haven't read all the other 34 pages, but most of them appear to be pure unadulterated science, for instance page 148:

Quote:
A farmer fed one of his cattle grain containing 3,060 kJ of energy. Its energy outputs were then monitored.
Calculate how much of the energy consumed by this animal is used for growth.
Another question (p. 149) is:
Quote:
The photos below show two angles of a domestic cat skull.
Identify three adaptations that allow a cat to be an efficient predator.

There would be reason to worry if the question was, 'Identify three ways the sky and earth parents made this animal so good at purring and catching mice,' but it isn't. The question is pure unadulterated science of evolution!

Get real!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 4th June 2023 at 12:10 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2023, 04:26 PM   #292
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by dann View Post
I don't know about Roger Ramjets, but I hadn't forgotten. However, the last time I saw it, I could only read the headlines, which didn't seem to support the idea that it was "pure, unadulterated creationism": Te Ao Māori - The Māori Worldview.

This time, I was at home and got hold of a magnifying glass:

As the headline says, this is a presentation of the Māori worldview. In the last two sentences, it goes on to say that living creatures "are all descendants" instead of saying 'are all seen as descendants', and "humans are linked and related to" instead of saying 'humans are seen as linked and related to'.

However, after having established that this is about the Māori worldview, this is also how an article about, for instance, Greek mythology would go. At one point, after saying that we are talking about Greek mythology, about how the ancient Greeks viewed the world, it is implied that when you say that "Zeus is the child of Cronus and Rhea" (Wikipedia), it still means that Zeus as well as his parents are mythological creatures. It isn't necessary to point out in every new sentence that this is how the Greeks saw it.

So no, the two pages are not "pure unadulterated creationism." In fact, they are as little "pure unadulterated creationism" as the Wikipedia page about Zeus is pure unadulterated ... I don't know ... heathenism?!

There are 36 pages in the chapter Life and the Taiao. I haven't read all the other 34 pages, but most of them appear to be pure unadulterated science, for instance page 148:

Another question (p. 149) is:

There would be reason to worry if the question was, 'Identify three ways the sky and earth parents made this animal so good at purring and catching mice,' but it isn't. The question is pure unadulterated science of evolution!

Get real!
The Maori Way of Thinking/Worldview is exclusively the Thinking/Worldview of Maori before the arrival of Whitey. This Way of Thinking/Worldview new nothing about the existence of cats, cattle, kilojoules or photography. What you are quoting is the Whitey Way of Thinking/Worldview, subsequently adopted by Maori, and many of those (all today) were only part Maori.

Historical, paranormal Greek mythology and beliefs have no more place in modern science than any other paranormal mythology and beliefs, be they historical or modern.

You “Get real!”.
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

Last edited by ynot; 5th June 2023 at 04:41 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2023, 05:25 PM   #293
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,498
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Merely stating a fact.

Maori land is distinguishable from other land everywhere in the country.

Maori form ~15% of the population of NZ, yet...

50% of the prison population is Maori

50% of solo parent support beneficiaries are Maori

Maori are four times as likely to be unemployed, three times more likely to smoke cigarettes, and have less than 1/4 as many doctors as the rest of the population.

Again, it's all white ***** fault so none of it matters.

I always cast my mind back to 1983 when I was acting bank manager in the poorest area of NZ and benefit payments were late one week. A crowd of Maori women stood screaming at me, demanding their "pay". I just shook my head and locked the door. Pay, it is not.

And be aware, none of that bothers me at all - I'm happy for my white guilt to pay billions in benefits because actions by people 180 years ago deprived them of their cannibalism traditional lands. What I object to is them going a step further and demanding their idiotic fairytales be part of school curricula. I don't accept it from christian religions, Hinduism, Pasifika or Chinese culture or Pagans, and I'm not about to accept it from Maori.
Imagine being a functionary in a regime that can't make its payments on time, and claiming moral superiority over those who are upset that they haven't received the payments the regime promised them.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2023, 06:50 PM   #294
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Imagine being a functionary in a regime that can't make its payments on time, and claiming moral superiority over those who are upset that they haven't received the payments the regime promised them.
I'm sure the "regime" didn't make the payments on time for some practical, unintended and unexpected reason. Don't think it was a case of willfully withholding payments or running out of money. But it's obvious to me that The Atheist's point was more to do with the Maori thinking it was their earned pay, rather than a welfare payment.

However, I can imagine the anger, panic and frustration of some Maori women not being able to immediately satisfy their drug, alcohol, smoking and gambling addictions.
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a godís existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

Last edited by ynot; 5th June 2023 at 08:10 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2023, 09:41 PM   #295
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 44,981
Originally Posted by dann View Post
I don't know about Roger Ramjets, but I hadn't forgotten. However, the last time I saw it, I could only read the headlines, which didn't seem to support the idea that it was "pure, unadulterated creationism": Te Ao Māori - The Māori Worldview.

This time, I was at home and got hold of a magnifying glass:



As the headline says, this is a presentation of the Māori worldview. In the last two sentences, it goes on to say that living creatures "are all descendants" instead of saying 'are all seen as descendants', and "humans are linked and related to" instead of saying 'humans are seen as linked and related to'.

However, after having established that this is about the Māori worldview, this is also how an article about, for instance, Greek mythology would go. At one point, after saying that we are talking about Greek mythology, about how the ancient Greeks viewed the world, it is implied that when you say that "Zeus is the child of Cronus and Rhea" (Wikipedia), it still means that Zeus as well as his parents are mythological creatures. It isn't necessary to point out in every new sentence that this is how the Greeks saw it.

So no, the two pages are not "pure unadulterated creationism." In fact, they are as little "pure unadulterated creationism" as the Wikipedia page about Zeus is pure unadulterated ... I don't know ... heathenism?!

There are 36 pages in the chapter Life and the Taiao. I haven't read all the other 34 pages, but most of them appear to be pure unadulterated science, for instance page 148:


Another question (p. 149) is:



There would be reason to worry if the question was, 'Identify three ways the sky and earth parents made this animal so good at purring and catching mice,' but it isn't. The question is pure unadulterated science of evolution!

Get real!
Calm down, I didn't say the whole book was full of Maori beliefs.

I didn't even say I was vehemently against what is being done.

The fact remains that Maori beliefs are being taught in a science book, something Roger Ramjets doubted.
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2023, 10:03 PM   #296
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 86,957
The question is: are Maori beliefs being taught as scientific facts in a science book?
__________________
We are living in weird times
dominated by weird people
who talk about weird ****

- Seth Meyers
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2023, 11:55 PM   #297
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,520
Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Calm down, I didn't say the whole book was full of Maori beliefs.

No, you just posted a quotation that claimed that there was "pure unadulterated creationism" in the book:
Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
You seem to have forgotten this:
Quote:
The example page (124) is pure unadulterated creationism, just not Christian creationism.
There isn't!

Quote:
I didn't even say I was vehemently against what is being done.

I didn't claim that you were vehemently against what is being done, did I?!

Quote:
The fact remains that Maori beliefs are being taught in a science book, something Roger Ramjets doubted.

What you claim as a fact is no such thing. Māori beliefs aren't being taught in that science book, so RR was right in doubting that it was.
The book stresses that the two pages are about "Te Ao Māori - The Māori Worldview" I don't see how this can be confused with teaching Maori beliefs".

It is relevant in a chapter about the natural environment to point out that there are different ways of viewing the world. My view, for instance, differs considerably from the view of, say, CEOs of the fossil-fuel industry. In an NZ book, I don't see why the Māori worldview shouldn't be mentioned. A Danish book about astronomy can have an introduction mentioning Norse cosmology and references to Aristotlelian cosmology in a chapter about the history of astronomy without attempting to rehabilitate the idea of raiding the coasts of England or trying to convert the readers to geocentrism.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2023, 11:56 PM   #298
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,520
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The question is: are Maori beliefs being taught as scientific facts in a science book?

It is obvious that they aren't.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2023, 12:10 AM   #299
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,520
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
However, I can imagine the anger, panic and frustration of some Maori women not being able to immediately satisfy their drug, alcohol, smoking and gambling addictions.

You no doubt can imagine it (in fact, you already do) because that's all "some Maori women" need money for, isn't it? And no white people would ever stoop so low as to get addicted to drugs, alcohol, smoking or gambling, would they? And even if they did, they wouldn't get angry, panic or get frustrated if they weren't able to satisfy their addiction, right?!

What's next? A story about how "some Maori women" live in luxury while receiving welfare checks?
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2023, 12:13 AM   #300
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,520
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
The Maori Way of Thinking/Worldview is exclusively the Thinking/Worldview of Maori before the arrival of Whitey. This Way of Thinking/Worldview new nothing about the existence of cats, cattle, kilojoules or photography. What you are quoting is the Whitey Way of Thinking/Worldview, subsequently adopted by Maori, and many of those (all today) were only part Maori.

And so what???

Quote:
Historical, paranormal Greek mythology and beliefs have no more place in modern science than any other paranormal mythology and beliefs, be they historical or modern.

Which is why they didn't get any place, at least not in this book. The parallel to Creationism's 'teaching the controversy' isn't there. It's all in your imagination, which definitely has "no more place in modern science than any other paranormal mythology and beliefs, be they historical or modern."

Quote:
You “Get real!”.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 6th June 2023 at 12:16 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2023, 12:15 AM   #301
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,072
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Maori form ~15% of the population of NZ, yet...

50% of the prison population is Maori

50% of solo parent support beneficiaries are Maori

Maori are four times as likely to be unemployed, three times more likely to smoke cigarettes, and have less than 1/4 as many doctors as the rest of the population.
Why do you think this is so?
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2023, 12:17 AM   #302
Lplus
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 2,267
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The question is: are Maori beliefs being taught as scientific facts in a science book?
Or are they being taught as a viable alternative to scientific fact in a science book...
Lplus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2023, 12:24 AM   #303
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 44,981
Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, you just posted a quotation that claimed that there was "pure unadulterated creationism" in the book
Ah, I meant to just be referring to the link to the book, not to the comment about it. Should have deleted the comment.


Originally Posted by dann View Post
What you claim as a fact is no such thing. Māori beliefs aren't being taught in that science book, so RR was right in doubting that it was.
The book stresses that the two pages are about "Te Ao Māori - The Māori Worldview" I don't see how this can be confused with teaching Maori beliefs".
Huh? If "The Maori Worldview" isn't Maori beliefs, what is it?


Originally Posted by dann View Post
It is relevant in a chapter about the natural environment to point out that there are different ways of viewing the world. My view, for instance, differs considerably from the view of, say, CEOs of the fossil-fuel industry. In an NZ book, I don't see why the Māori worldview shouldn't be mentioned. A Danish book about astronomy can have an introduction mentioning Norse cosmology and references to Aristotlelian cosmology in a chapter about the history of astronomy without attempting to rehabilitate the idea of raiding the coasts of England or trying to convert the readers to geocentrism.
I agree.

The exercise in the book goes slightly further I think, and gets students to answer a question assuming belief in a "power, energy, or presence".
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2023, 01:28 AM   #304
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,520
Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Huh? If "The Maori Worldview" isn't Maori beliefs, what is it?

It is not the Māori belief. It is about the Māori belief.
I already explained the difference. It wouldn't be bad to present Creationism in a text book about evolution. The geocentric world view is presented in astronomy books all the time.
One of my colleagues, a biology teacher, wanted biology text books to include creationism. Not because she was a creationist, on the contrary. She wanted her students to understand what creationism was in order for them to be able to recognize it when creationists were 'spreading the word' in the form of intelligent design, in particular.

As an English teacher, I was horrified when I played the devil's advocate and argued that eyes are too complicated to be the result of evolution and managed to convince my students: 'Very short, weak legs may come in handy for a creature moving from the sea onto land, but what is the use of half an eye?' My students accepted the argument: 'No, eyes couldn't have evolved.' (I didn't try to convince them that a god must have been involved in the 'creation' of eyes! )
I realized that my students, who were all firm believers in the theory of evolution, wouldn't be able to confront ID arguments if they ever encountered them, so I spent about 15 minutes explaining to them how eyes (including octopus and insect eyes) have actually evolved in several versions in the course of evolution. (In case anybody's wondering what that had to do with English: Not much, but the theme was "U.S. culture". )

That is not what creationists want, obviously. They want 'the controversy' to be taught. As if creationism and evolution are just two theories. In other words, they want creationism to be presented as a theory on equal footing with the theory of evolution.

If you look at the NZ textbook, it does't present the Maori Worldview as if it deserves the same attention as evolution. That was the point of my reference to p. 149:
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Another question (p. 149) is:
Quote:
The photos below show two angles of a domestic cat skull.
Identify three adaptations that allow a cat to be an efficient predator.
There would be reason to worry if the question was, 'Identify three ways the sky and earth parents made this animal so good at purring and catching mice,' but it isn't. The question is pure unadulterated science of evolution!

Unlike the ID arguments about the eye or the bacterial flagellar motor, another favorite of creationism, it isn't really necessary to argue against the existence of Ranginui and Papatuanuku. They are mentioned as mythology, not presented as scientific fact, the same way ID presents its arguments.

See the difference?

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
The exercise in the book goes slightly further I think, and gets students to answer a question assuming belief in a "power, energy, or presence".

Yes, but still in the context of something presented as a worldview. I don't think it will confuse any students, particularly not in the context of the whole chapter.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 6th June 2023 at 01:41 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2023, 01:33 AM   #305
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,520
Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Or are they being taught as a viable alternative to scientific fact in a science book...

No, they're not.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2023, 03:00 AM   #306
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,923
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
The Maori Way of Thinking/Worldview is exclusively the Thinking/Worldview of Maori before the arrival of Whitey.
You're slightly off tangent there, because Maori have no clue what life was like before whitey's arrival, having only distorted oral histories.

It's what they claim their worldview was. Whether it's true or not isn't known.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Imagine being a functionary in a regime that can't make its payments on time, and claiming moral superiority over those who are upset that they haven't received the payments the regime promised them.
Even though I specifically said this: Pay, it is not. you chose to miss the point.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Why do you think this is so?
I can only be guided by Maori and say it's white *****' fault.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, they're not.
Says a person with zero understanding of what happens in NZ, and NZ schools in particular.

I have children at school in NZ, and I'm 100% certain you do not.

Which of us do you think has a better grasp about what children are being taught in classrooms?
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2023, 12:29 PM   #307
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,072
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I can only be guided by Maori and say it's white *****' fault.
A non-answer.

But those who say it's all whitey's 'fault' are correct. Europeans did indeed introduce their disgusting drugs and fatal diseases to Maori, stole their land and imposed their class structure on them, and now imprison those who survived for reacting as you would expect while putting the blame on them for being 'inferior'. It's the same pattern that occurred around the World wherever the colonialists went.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2023, 12:34 PM   #308
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,072
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Says a person with zero understanding of what happens in NZ, and NZ schools in particular.

I have children at school in NZ, and I'm 100% certain you do not.

Which of us do you think has a better grasp about what children are being taught in classrooms?
We can only go by what you have presented, which so far is nothing. Therefore we must conclude that based on the evidence so far, dann has a better grasp of it than you do.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2023, 03:21 PM   #309
Paul2
Philosopher
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,162
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The question is: are Maori beliefs being taught as scientific facts in a science book?
It's unclear. On page 124 of the scipad text,
Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
. . . .
The example page (124) is pure unadulterated creationism, just not Christian creationism.



https://scipad.co.nz/Digital%20previ...as1.html#p=124
it's unclear whether the Maori concepts of mauri and mana are presented as (1) part of an anthropological presentation on Maori concepts, or as (2) scientific concepts. I haven't found anything in the context of that presentation that would favor (1) or (2), it's ambiguous, and that in and of itself is a problem. Maybe someone else can find some context that would favor (1) or (2).
__________________
It's nice to be nice to the nice.

Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
Paul2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2023, 09:40 PM   #310
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,520
Post 291 was all about the context.

Look at the pages before and the pages after. As early as on the next page, it moves on to changes in "the diversity of plants in an ecosystem" by the introduction of foreign "mammalian herbivores (deer, possums, etc.)". The two open questions are about:
Discharging waste water to streams
and
Introduction of predators (cats, dogs, rats, etc.)

I am pretty sure that those concepts aren't taken from Māori mythology. They are modern biological and environmental concepts, but it's not difficult to see why the reference to the Māori worldview works well as a springboard to talking about how humans affect nature.

Do you think there's reason to assume that answers along the lines of "We shouldn't pollute rivers and introduce rats to Aotearoa because it pisses off Ranginui and Papatuanuku" are what the authors of the book are looking for on page 125?
I think that the answer they have already given to the first of the three questions makes it clear that it's not what they want. It even uses the word ecosystem instead of whakapapa.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2023, 03:30 AM   #311
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,923
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But those who say it's all whitey's 'fault' are correct.
You should come here some time - you'd fit right in to the Maori caucus.

It's also whitey's fault that we provide Maori-centric health care, Maori-only scholarships that fail to encourage Maori to study STEM subjects, provide Maori seats in Parliament, ceded control of all fresh and salt water to Maori, paid billions of dollars in compensation and provide housing to Maori.

When covid struck, Maori received an additional $132,000,000 to help with Maori response to it, despite them being completely entitled to all covid assistance. Pasifika people, who share the same socio-economic rung as Maori got nothing.

Yeah, whitey has a lot to answer for alright.

The colonisation position is nothing but ignorance based on ignorance. Maori were going to be colonised by someone. No country has managed to stay free of other people, and the diseases and booze would have been introduced at some stage.

The world isn't a fantasy and failure to deal with reality is Maori's problem, not whitey's.

Take a look at Pasifika people - they were colonised every bit as much as Maori and faced identical challenges, yet they actually have jobs, don't go to jail in anything like Maori numbers and manage to survive and grow without any of the massive advantages Maori are handed.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
We can only go by what you have presented, which so far is nothing.
The actual curriculum has been posted. I'm just telling you how it's playing in the real world.

I have to admit to finding this thread far more humorous now certain posters with zero knowledge of NZ - and who have never set foot in the country - are preaching about what they think the situation really is.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2023, 07:21 AM   #312
Paul2
Philosopher
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,162
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Post 291 was all about the context.

Look at the pages before and the pages after. As early as on the next page, it moves on to changes in "the diversity of plants in an ecosystem" by the introduction of foreign "mammalian herbivores (deer, possums, etc.)". The two open questions are about:
Discharging waste water to streams
and
Introduction of predators (cats, dogs, rats, etc.)

I am pretty sure that those concepts aren't taken from Māori mythology. They are modern biological and environmental concepts, but it's not difficult to see why the reference to the Māori worldview works well as a springboard to talking about how humans affect nature.

Do you think there's reason to assume that answers along the lines of "We shouldn't pollute rivers and introduce rats to Aotearoa because it pisses off Ranginui and Papatuanuku" are what the authors of the book are looking for on page 125?
I think that the answer they have already given to the first of the three questions makes it clear that it's not what they want. It even uses the word ecosystem instead of whakapapa.
Did you intend that as a reply to my post #309?
__________________
It's nice to be nice to the nice.

Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
Paul2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2023, 10:08 AM   #313
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,520
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Did you intend that as a reply to my post #309?

Yes, that was the idea:
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Maybe someone else can find some context that would favor (1) or (2).
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Post 291 was all about the context.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 7th June 2023 at 10:09 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2023, 10:18 AM   #314
Paul2
Philosopher
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,162
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, that was the idea:
Great, thanks.

Discharging waste water into streams and the introduction of predators are clearly scientific concepts, so are you saying that their presence nearby the mention of mauri and mana means that mauri and mana are intended to be scientific concepts?
__________________
It's nice to be nice to the nice.

Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
Paul2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2023, 10:23 AM   #315
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,498
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The question is: are Maori beliefs being taught as scientific facts in a science book?
Why should they be in a science textbook at all?

Why pander to the idea that children must be taught to think of science in the context of religious beliefs?

There is good, secular humanist reasoning to support ecological conservation. You don't need to explain to kids that the Maori believe that land is sacred. You can just explain to kids that there are good practical reasons to value the land and conserve it.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2023, 10:28 AM   #316
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,498
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Great, thanks.

Discharging waste water into streams and the introduction of predators are clearly scientific concepts, so are you saying that their presence nearby the mention of mauri and mana means that mauri and mana are intended to be scientific concepts?
I think they're intended to inform application of scientific concepts. "When considering the impact of waste water disposal and the introduction of foreign predators, keep in mind the Maori superstitions about the environment."

There are good, practical, secular humanist considerations to keep in mind when applying these scientific ideas. Science textbooks should present those, rather than trying to recontextualize superstition as somehow scientifically relevant or science-adjacent.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2023, 06:53 PM   #317
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 86,957
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why should they be in a science textbook at all?
Why should phlogiston and the luminiferous ether be in a science textbook?

I think it's worth remembering that indigenous peoples across the world might just have a bit of a beef with the white colonisers. And when those colonisers come to the indigenous people and say "Yeah, all that stuff that your grandmother taught you? You know, that stuff that goes back generations? Yeah, that's all wrong. It's wrong. It's false, it's fake, it's a load of absolute rubbish. Forget it all, now you need to learn this instead."

Don't you think that there might just be a teeny-tiny problem with that?

I'm of the opinion that Māori people would be perfectly justified in saying "**** off pakeha" at that. That's why cultural sensitivity in science education matters.
__________________
We are living in weird times
dominated by weird people
who talk about weird ****

- Seth Meyers
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2023, 09:51 PM   #318
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,520
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Great, thanks.

Discharging waste water into streams and the introduction of predators are clearly scientific concepts, so are you saying that their presence nearby the mention of mauri and mana means that mauri and mana are intended to be scientific concepts?

No, I'm not. And it's more than "their presence nearby the mention of mauri and mana".

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Post 291 was all about the context.

Look at the pages before and the pages after. As early as on the next page, it moves on to changes in "the diversity of plants in an ecosystem" by the introduction of foreign "mammalian herbivores (deer, possums, etc.)". The two open questions are about:
Discharging waste water to streams
and
Introduction of predators (cats, dogs, rats, etc.)

I am pretty sure that those concepts aren't taken from Māori mythology. They are modern biological and environmental concepts, but it's not difficult to see why the reference to the Māori worldview works well as a springboard to talking about how humans affect nature.

Do you think there's reason to assume that answers along the lines of "We shouldn't pollute rivers and introduce rats to Aotearoa because it pisses off Ranginui and Papatuanuku" are what the authors of the book are looking for on page 125?
I think that the answer they have already given to the first of the three questions makes it clear that it's not what they want. It even uses the word ecosystem instead of whakapapa.

The follow-up questions after the references to Māori mythology make it clear that those references serve as an introduction to ecosystems and environmental thinking: humankind in and of nature. Ranginui and Papatuanuku don't appear again for the same reason that the retrograde motion of the planets doesn't appear again in an astronomy book once the concept of parallax has explained why they don't actually move backwards but only appear to do so.

The (otherwise very scientific) Danish Wikipedia page about lightning links to the Wiki page about Thor! Why not?

It makes sense to use a reference to Māori mythology to introduce the idea that people have an impact on nature to the extent that it may destroy its usefulness to us. (It makes more sense than a link to Thor in an article about lightning.)

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why should they be in a science textbook at all?

Why pander to the idea that children must be taught to think of science in the context of religious beliefs?

There is good, secular humanist reasoning to support ecological conservation. You don't need to explain to kids that the Maori believe that land is sacred. You can just explain to kids that there are good practical reasons to value the land and conserve it.

The book doesn't pander to any idea that children must be taught to think of science in the context of religious beliefs. On the contrary, the book sees Māori mythology in the context of science and "good, secular humanist reasoning". You can indeed "explain to kids that there are good practical reasons to value the land and conserve it," which is what the book does. That it also mentions that people in this land had thoughts about how to conserve it even before the arrival of scientific thinking is worth mentioning and has nothing to do with pandering to anything.

Would it be pandering to superstition to mention the idea of celestial spheres in an astronomy text book?
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 7th June 2023 at 09:53 PM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2023, 01:00 AM   #319
Lplus
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 2,267
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Why should phlogiston and the luminiferous ether be in a science textbook?

I think it's worth remembering that indigenous peoples across the world might just have a bit of a beef with the white colonisers. And when those colonisers come to the indigenous people and say "Yeah, all that stuff that your grandmother taught you? You know, that stuff that goes back generations? Yeah, that's all wrong. It's wrong. It's false, it's fake, it's a load of absolute rubbish. Forget it all, now you need to learn this instead."

Don't you think that there might just be a teeny-tiny problem with that?

I'm of the opinion that Māori people would be perfectly justified in saying "**** off pakeha" at that. That's why cultural sensitivity in science education matters.
Sounds just like the way the Darwinists treated the Christian Creationists..
Lplus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2023, 02:48 AM   #320
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,520
No, it doesn't! Charles Darwin's crippling Origin of Species fears exposed: 'Like confessing to murder!' (Express, May 1, 2020)

Even 'Darwin's Bulldog' saw himself mainly as a defender of Darwin:
Quote:
While the second half of Darwin's life was lived mainly within his family, the younger and combative Huxley operated mainly out in the world at large. A letter from Huxley to Ernst Haeckel (2 November 1871) states: "The dogs have been snapping at [Darwin's] heels too much of late."
Thomas Henry Huxley: Support of Darwin (Wikipedia)

Other examples? Are we going to look at Galileo next and his incredibly rude attacks on Catholicism?

As for indigenous superstitions and the collective self-deception of white colonialists, I can recommend the article The Mass Suicide of the Xhosa - A Study in Collective Self-Deception by Steve Kowit in Skeptic Magazine, Volume 11 Number 1. (2005)
There's a Danish translation online, Xhosaernes masseselvmord – et studie i kollektivt selvbedrag, but I don't know if a Google Translation back into English is any good.
I just tried it out! It's readable.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:59 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.