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Old 23rd June 2023, 07:28 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Jeez! There are some serious problems if people decide that [RFK] is what they want.
Allow me to posit an alternative hypothesis: the media loves a horse race. If you convince the reasonable people to sit this one out, you'll just be feeding oxygen to the nutters.

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Old 23rd June 2023, 09:45 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Peter Hotez has made clear he has no intention of 'debating' RFK, Jr. About what?


Hotez is being harassed both online and in person.
CNN interview with Hotez:
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Old 23rd June 2023, 09:49 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
They are not so much anti-vaxx as pro-money, or pro-profit.

There is no doubt that Big Pharma makes billions off drugs development. It also costs them billions in research and development, but that's a cost of doing their business. It's a BIG industry making BIG money and employing LOTS of people making BIG profits. And the conservatives were all for this because that's where they invested their own shares, etc.

The "side-effect", if you will, is there are now some marvelous drugs out there doing amazing work, including the new mRNA vaccinations. But in a pandemic, Big Pharma can "afford" to distribute vaccines at a reduced rate, or get subsidies to do so. Which means less profit for the shareholders, plus it "looks like socialism" when the plebs get something for nearly free from the government.

This is anathema to the GOP. Health has to be kept expensive or else there is no profit. Everybody needs to pay. No free rides. So they become anti-vaxx not so much because of the science but because the distribution and availability is antithetical to their political outlook. The kooky anti-science justification comes later.
Not so much, for the right there is one group which should never have to pay for anything: The rich.
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Old 23rd June 2023, 09:53 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
He also wrote a laughable article about how the Republicans "stole" Ohio in the 2004 election that was originally published in both Rolling Stone and Salon (the latter at least had the good sense to remove it after numerous errors were pointed out).

It was one of the classics of a conspiracy theorist in action: Experts (out of their field) roped in, claims that the major media won't cover this, mystification that even the Democrats don't seem interested (because they see the CT as a house of cards designed by Dali).
He was wrong there, the theft was carried out at a national level. Not just in Ohio.
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Old 23rd June 2023, 09:55 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And that is another think political militants of both flavors have;they hate centrists and moderates.
I oppose "centrists and moderates" because they are right wingers pretending to be the political centre. Every single "moderate" party of the last thirty years has been hard right thatcherite at best.
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Old 23rd June 2023, 10:04 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Peter Hotez has made clear he has no intention of 'debating' RFK, Jr. About what?


Hotez is being harassed both online and in person.
Well, quite.

I mean, back in the days I was a science undergrad all we ever did was debate things, never did any practical work, never did any field work, never looked at a statistical analysis, never did a literature search, never reviewed papers, never replicated any papers...

Naaaaaaaah, none of that stuff, not ever, just debating, debating and more debating...

Even in my nursing time all we ever did was debate treatment options. We never looked at evidence, nor read our NICE guidelines and their supporting evidence, no sireeeeeeeee, just all that endless debating...It's a wonder I ever saw a patient, what with the debating.
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Old 23rd June 2023, 10:06 AM   #87
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Oh, on a (slightly) more serious note: over at Respectful Insolence, ORAC has been laying the boot into RFKj and some of his "supporters" with great glee.

Gives some more background to the "debate" bollocks involving Hotez.
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Old 23rd June 2023, 11:41 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
I oppose "centrists and moderates" because they are right wingers pretending to be the political centre. Every single "moderate" party of the last thirty years has been hard right thatcherite at best.
Of xourse someone on the far left would think that.
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Old 24th June 2023, 03:35 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Of xourse someone on the far left would think that.
You think I'm on the far left? Shows how far to the right US politics has skewed that mild social-democracy is "far" left.
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Old 24th June 2023, 07:24 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
You think I'm on the far left? Shows how far to the right US politics has skewed that mild social-democracy is "far" left.

There's a (now pretty old) joke that the modern definition of "liberal" is "anyone slightly to the right of Ronald Reagan".
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Old 24th June 2023, 09:38 AM   #91
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The Amount of Energy Needed to Refute BS ...

Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
it's also notable that he wanted the debate on his show, wherein he drinks and smokes weed while moderating a debate he doesn't understand but agrees with everything RFK is saying and constantly challenges everything Hotez says.

joe rogan is not a serious person, i'm not sure when he got it in his head he should be trying to solve serious topics and be taken seriously. stick to plugging your ****** comedian friends ****** comedy specials joe.

Jonathan Howard alludes to the RFKjr, Rogan, Hotez debacle in an article today:

Quote:
The larger lesson here is the wisdom of Brandolini’s law, which states:

The amount of energy needed to refute ******** is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.

I could (and might) go through the rest of Mr. Kirsch’s article, exposing its fake statistics, specious comparisons, and strategic omissions. However, my rebuttal here would not have been possible during a live “debate”, which explains why it’s a mistake to let performative anti-vaxxers turn children’s health into a disinformation display to satisfy their own need to be “heterodox”.
Steve Kirsch and Brandolini’s law (Science-Based Medicine, June 24, 2023)
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Old 24th June 2023, 10:26 AM   #92
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I get that Rogan is the wrong venue, but I also feel that disinformation needs to be challenged and debated, precisely because there are people on the fence. Quite a few of us on this forum debated the 9-11 Truthers whenever and wherever we could to expose their lies. Yes, they did the gish gallop, but we heard from multiple former Truthers that we had changed their minds.
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Old 24th June 2023, 11:14 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I get that Rogan is the wrong venue, but I also feel that disinformation needs to be challenged and debated, precisely because there are people on the fence. Quite a few of us on this forum debated the 9-11 Truthers whenever and wherever we could to expose their lies. Yes, they did the gish gallop, but we heard from multiple former Truthers that we had changed their minds.
In my eyes, a forum such as this is a better place for debating conspiracy theorists than a face to face. It's far easier to counter a gish-gallop and you don't run the risk of selective editing cutting off important parts of response.
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Old 24th June 2023, 05:19 PM   #94
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well, there's a way it can be done if you're going to debate someone, and it mostly involves clowning the other guy. if you can't produce a 30 second clip of you clowning the other guy that can circulate social media, you've lost. that's how this kind of stuff works now. so if you're not good at doing that, you'll lose.
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Old 24th June 2023, 08:39 PM   #95
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It looks like science from now on will be debated in accordance with the Musk-Zuckerberg rules.
And maybe presidential debates will, too. Or maybe it's the Wakanda rules, I'm not sure.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th June 2023, 03:12 PM   #96
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The Decoding the Gurus podcast had a bit of discussion about the hypocrisy of Joe Rogan and RFK Jr attacking Peter Hotez given how much money Rogan has apparently made for his BS supplement that is way less regulated than vaccines. And, of course, Hotel’s own Covid vaccine was explicitly made to circumvent Big Pharma to make it cheap for the developing world and using older tech rather than mRNA. Of course it was always clear that the professed “skepticism” about the specific mRNA Covid vaccines was just part of standard anti-vaxx and now the mask is off for people like Rogan, platforming this total charlatan.

Anyway, after that there is a really good interview with Science-Based Medicine writer and neurologist, Jonathan Howard, which is excellent and really worth listening to.

https://decoding-the-gurus.captivate...id-contrarians
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Old 26th June 2023, 03:12 PM   #97
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David Gorski:
Quote:
Joe Rogan conveyed a challenge by antivax crank turned Presidential candidate RFK Jr. to vaccine scientist Dr. Peter Hotez to “debate me, bro!” In the week since, wealthy right wingers have added money to the inducement, and through an awful op-ed by Ross Douthat this weekend, even the New York Times has amped up the pressure for a “debate” about vaccines with RFK Jr. It looks like it’s time to revisit the topic of why it’s a bad idea to debate science deniers like RFK Jr. sooner than I had anticipated or wanted.
RFK Jr. and Joe Rogan: Putting the old denialist technique of bad faith “Debate me, bro!” challenges on steroids (Science-Based Medicine, June 26, 2023)

ETA: It reminds me of a recent article about how even a trained debater like Neil deGrasse Tyson failed when debating an antivaxxer:
Neil deGrasse Tyson makes the unforced error of “debating” antivax propagandist Del Bigtree on The Highwire (Science-Based Medicine, April 10, 2023)
Tyson may be a both a scientist and a good debater, but he is not an immunologist.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 26th June 2023 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 26th June 2023, 03:54 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
David Gorski:



ETA: It reminds me of a recent article about how even a trained debater like Neil deGrasse Tyson failed when debating an antivaxxer:
Neil deGrasse Tyson makes the unforced error of “debating” antivax propagandist Del Bigtree on The Highwire (Science-Based Medicine, April 10, 2023)
Tyson may be a both a scientist and a good debater, but he is not an immunologist.
RFK is a lawyer. Of course he will be able to debate and score points and bamboozle an ignorant audience. Whereas Hotez spends much of his time working in a lab, etc…. and hasn’t been honing his debate skills and ambulance chasing and trading on his political aristocracy family like the nepo baby RFK Jr.

By the way. I have to wonder who makes the TRT that Rogan and RFk are on. A quick Google search to ask who makes TRT the top names I see are Pfizer and Bayer. Hmmm….
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Old 26th June 2023, 05:28 PM   #99
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The New Republic runs a piece arguing that RFK Jr is a Republican plant, intended to embarrass Biden in New Hampshire:

Quote:
Kennedy is an environmental lawyer with the most famous name in Democratic politics. He is also a patsy. His candidacy is being promoted by right-wing forces with the single-minded objective of embarrassing Joe Biden in the New Hampshire primary and other early contests.
While I do think that's a bit conspiratorial, check out this profile on Fox News, billed as "Fox Nation special pulls the curtain back on 2024 candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr." Seriously, if he somehow wins the nomination, he could use that special as his biopic at the DNC. It's the usual soft-focus look at Camelot, with the family that was raised to the duty of service to the country and dogged by tragedy. RFK Jr trained in falconry and that is why he is an environmentalist. Yes, he had his youthful problems but he overcame them and went to Harvard and University of Virginia Law. Yes, he was busted for heroin at age 29 (a friend helpfully states that RFK was addicted to drugs from about the time his father died--age 14--to his late 20s). Oddly enough it closes with him quipping at an appearance that if the skeletons in his closet could vote, he'd win in a landslide.

Zero mention of his nutty beliefs that would not resonate with Fox viewers, like that the 2004 election was stolen, or that the CIA killed his father and his uncle, not to mention the more recent ones about Covid (that might find a receptive audience). It is hard to imagine Fox giving such a soft-focus profile to any other national Democrat.
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Old 27th June 2023, 11:55 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
RFK is a lawyer. Of course he will be able to debate and score points and bamboozle an ignorant audience. Whereas Hotez spends much of his time working in a lab, etc…. and hasn’t been honing his debate skills and ambulance chasing and trading on his political aristocracy family like the nepo baby RFK Jr.

By the way. I have to wonder who makes the TRT that Rogan and RFk are on. A quick Google search to ask who makes TRT the top names I see are Pfizer and Bayer. Hmmm….
it's funny because, well i'm assuming it's rogan fans, they're using his chemically produced mass as evidence that not taking the vaccine makes you healthier. not that you'll ever get through to these people, rogan pushes alpha brain, kratom, and 100 other paid promotions made out of who knows what in a lab. tell me why a guy making $200M to do his podcast is running so many paid sponsorships anyway? the guy is such a piece of **** and his fans are so ******* dumb
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Old 29th June 2023, 01:41 PM   #101
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@jack of former Twitter CEO fame has been promoting RFK Jr on Twitter, posting videos of the candidate talking about antivax stuff and MKULTRA. I despair.
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Old 29th June 2023, 01:47 PM   #102
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Old 29th June 2023, 07:59 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
RFK is a lawyer. Of course he will be able to debate and score points and bamboozle an ignorant audience. Whereas Hotez spends much of his time working in a lab, etc…. and hasn’t been honing his debate skills and ambulance chasing and trading on his political aristocracy family like the nepo baby RFK Jr.

By the way. I have to wonder who makes the TRT that Rogan and RFk are on. A quick Google search to ask who makes TRT the top names I see are Pfizer and Bayer. Hmmm….

We seem to agree on what the problem is, but I think we should consider what to do about it:
One thing is that the public in general should be educated enough to understand the most basic concepts of immunology and statistics and thus be able to see through the worst demagogy of people like RFK Jr. and Rogan, but that isn't going to happen any time soon.

In the meantime, pharmaceutical companies should pay for debating classes for immunologists and select a few promising candidates to be the go-to pundits for TV appearances and public confrontations with the likes of Kennedy & Rogan. I can think of several entertaining as well as educational debaters in other fields of science. They might have to give up contributing to ground-breaking scientific discoveries and instead devote their time to studying debating tactics, the arguments and alternative facts presented by the enemies of science and the psychology of their audience, but they would then come prepared for what the demagogues can come up with - which isn't much.

They might also have to be willing to humiliate their opponents and make the stupidity of their arguments strikingly clear, i.e. make the central and most important points clear again and again instead of always stressing the uncertainties and the things that science still doesn't know 100%. Their opponents don't have any qualms in this respect, which is what makes the arguments of science seem weak even when they are actually stronger than the BS presented by the science deniers.

On Danish TV, I have seen a couple of confrontations between representatives of alternative 'medicine' and actual science-based medicine. Those shows tend to be embarrassing because the stupid and ignorant confidence of the alt.med. representatives makes them seem very competent: 'I treated the patient, and now he's better, so it works.' And they get away with it because the actual MDs and researchers say stuff like: 'Well, it does indeed look like he got better, but we have to take into consideration that it may just have been a coincidence. He might have gotten better all on his own even without the homeopathic remedy, and it would require an RCT of a large group of people to determine if ...'

At that point, the viewers are already on their way to the local homeopath to buy the remedy because they saw that it worked on TV!

It just occurred to me, because it's not my main concern, but consider how entertaining it would also be to see somebody like Hotez kick RFK Jr.'s ***!
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Old 29th June 2023, 08:06 PM   #104
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Nope.
If one thing doesn't work against this kind of targeted disinformation, it's educating the public - they have already been told that the official narrative is not to be trusted.

No, you have to find a topic on which RFK is at odds with the group you want to convince and show them clips of that.
Guns would be a possible issue.
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Old 29th June 2023, 08:11 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
In the meantime, pharmaceutical companies should pay for debating classes for immunologists and select a few promising candidates to be the go-to pundits for TV appearances and public confrontations with the likes of Kennedy & Rogan. [snip]
And have them dismissed as "shills for Big Pharma"?
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Old 29th June 2023, 08:28 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Nope.
If one thing doesn't work against this kind of targeted disinformation, it's educating the public - they have already been told that the official narrative is not to be trusted.

And they believe it because of science illiteracy, which education would help them overcome.

Quote:
No, you have to find a topic on which RFK is at odds with the group you want to convince and show them clips of that.
Guns would be a possible issue.

I was talking specifically about the theme of immunization, the proposed RFK Jr. versus Hotez debate.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th June 2023, 08:33 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
And they believe it because of science illiteracy, which education would help them overcome.




I was talking specifically about the theme of immunization, the proposed RFK Jr. versus Hotez debate.
I know.

And studies have shown that you can't convince people with facts - their beliefs are not based on information, but emotions.
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Old 29th June 2023, 08:34 PM   #108
dann
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
And have them dismissed as "shills for Big Pharma"?

They are dismissed as shills whether they are or not. I also didn't say that they should defend Big Pharma. The point was to have somebody argue against antivaxxers that was actually good at it. I would prefer to have somebody other than Big Pharma pay for it, but since they are the ones with the big budgets (and would have an interest in promoting science in this particular case), it would be money well spent.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th June 2023, 08:37 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I know.

And studies have shown that you can't convince people with facts - their beliefs are not based on information, but emotions.

Which is why debating techniques are necessary. Like I said: "They might have to give up contributing to ground-breaking scientific discoveries and instead devote their time to studying debating tactics, the arguments and alternative facts presented by the enemies of science and the psychology of their audience, but they would then come prepared for what the demagogues can come up with - which isn't much."
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th June 2023, 08:41 PM   #110
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You can't win a debate against these nutters, and trying is just giving them a platform and legitimacy.

No, you have to silo them, educate the people who actually have to make medical decisions as if the CT attention whores didn't exist.
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Old 29th June 2023, 08:45 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Nope.
If one thing doesn't work against this kind of targeted disinformation, it's educating the public - they have already been told that the official narrative is not to be trusted.

No, you have to find a topic on which RFK is at odds with the group you want to convince and show them clips of that.
Guns would be a possible issue.
These days, it wouldn't surprise me if RFK Jr is a born-again 2nd amendment absolutist.

After all, he seems to have bought into the idea that it was the Deep State who killed his dad and his uncle, so he probably thinks people should be armed to resist.

Apparently he has gone wobbly in various ways on things like climate change etc...

And he's being backed by people like Steve Bannon and Roger Stone and various others of that kind. He's not going to start going all anti-gun on anyone to upset his base.
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Old 29th June 2023, 08:46 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
We seem to agree on what the problem is, but I think we should consider what to do about it:
One thing is that the public in general should be educated enough to understand the most basic concepts of immunology and statistics and thus be able to see through the worst demagogy of people like RFK Jr. and Rogan, but that isn't going to happen any time soon.

In the meantime, pharmaceutical companies should pay for debating classes for immunologists and select a few promising candidates to be the go-to pundits for TV appearances and public confrontations with the likes of Kennedy & Rogan. I can think of several entertaining as well as educational debaters in other fields of science. They might have to give up contributing to ground-breaking scientific discoveries and instead devote their time to studying debating tactics, the arguments and alternative facts presented by the enemies of science and the psychology of their audience, but they would then come prepared for what the demagogues can come up with - which isn't much.

They might also have to be willing to humiliate their opponents and make the stupidity of their arguments strikingly clear, i.e. make the central and most important points clear again and again instead of always stressing the uncertainties and the things that science still doesn't know 100%. Their opponents don't have any qualms in this respect, which is what makes the arguments of science seem weak even when they are actually stronger than the BS presented by the science deniers.

On Danish TV, I have seen a couple of confrontations between representatives of alternative 'medicine' and actual science-based medicine. Those shows tend to be embarrassing because the stupid and ignorant confidence of the alt.med. representatives makes them seem very competent: 'I treated the patient, and now he's better, so it works.' And they get away with it because the actual MDs and researchers say stuff like: 'Well, it does indeed look like he got better, but we have to take into consideration that it may just have been a coincidence. He might have gotten better all on his own even without the homeopathic remedy, and it would require an RCT of a large group of people to determine if ...'

At that point, the viewers are already on their way to the local homeopath to buy the remedy because they saw that it worked on TV!

It just occurred to me, because it's not my main concern, but consider how entertaining it would also be to see somebody like Hotez kick RFK Jr.'s ***!
There certainly are vaccine advocates who would be happy to debate RFK Jr on this and they have put themselves forward as people who want to debate him if Hotez won't. I am in favour of that.
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Old 29th June 2023, 08:53 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
These days, it wouldn't surprise me if RFK Jr is a born-again 2nd amendment absolutist.

After all, he seems to have bought into the idea that it was the Deep State who killed his dad and his uncle, so he probably thinks people should be armed to resist.

Apparently he has gone wobbly in various ways on things like climate change etc...

And he's being backed by people like Steve Bannon and Roger Stone and various others of that kind. He's not going to start going all anti-gun on anyone to upset his base.
but he is a trojan horse for Republicans - if he goes full AR-15, his chances to spoil Biden's campaign go down.
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Old 29th June 2023, 08:55 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
You can't win a debate against these nutters, and trying is just giving them a platform and legitimacy.

Of course, you can. But you need somebody who understands not just the science but also the audience, and who is thus even more self-assured than the antivaxxers. It is not as if scientists aren't already trying. Refusing to debate them (and in this case, 'debate' would be a merciless attack on the nonsense) is defeatist and currently used as the argument for the inferiority of scientists: 'They dare not debate us because they know we're right!' I can see why Hotez doesn't want to debate them. He knows that his science is correct, but he doesn't have the debating skills required to present that science in a way that would be convincing (to the science illiterates) in a debate.

Quote:
No, you have to silo them, educate the people who actually have to make medical decisions as if the CT attention whores didn't exist.

Everyone who decides or refuses to get vaccinated makes medical decisions. Those decisions should be well informed.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th June 2023, 08:57 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
There certainly are vaccine advocates who would be happy to debate RFK Jr on this and they have put themselves forward as people who want to debate him if Hotez won't. I am in favour of that.

I hope they are as good as they think. Names? Links?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th June 2023, 08:58 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
but he is a trojan horse for Republicans - if he goes full AR-15, his chances to spoil Biden's campaign go down.
Oh yeah. Well, maybe he should give some vague waffle about sensible gun regulations and say "After all, two unhinged guys shot my family."

Then if he wins the primary he can pivot to "The CIA killed my family and framed some innocent men! We need guns!"

My hope is he runs as a third party and peels off the crazy of both parties, which is about 10% or so of Democrats and about 65% to 70% of Republicans.
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Old 29th June 2023, 08:59 PM   #117
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fine by me
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Old 29th June 2023, 09:05 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Of course, you can...

no, you can't.

just look at Jordan Peterson embarrassing himself regularly when debating someone with actual expertise.
And yet, within hours you will find YT clips of "Peterson DESTROYS X in debate!!!!"


It's EXACTLY like convincing people that there is no God: they will withdraw to the last tiny gap where their deity of choice could still exist, and that is enough to justify their entire theology.
RFK would just have to make one half-arsed point to "win".
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Old 29th June 2023, 09:09 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I hope they are as good as they think. Names? Links?
There are people like:

The Real Truther

Avi Bitterman, MD

There are others who have said they want to debate, but I have less knowledge of their ability to debate.
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Old 30th June 2023, 07:22 AM   #120
dann
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
no, you can't.

just look at Jordan Peterson embarrassing himself regularly when debating someone with actual expertise.
And yet, within hours you will find YT clips of "Peterson DESTROYS X in debate!!!!"


It's EXACTLY like convincing people that there is no God: they will withdraw to the last tiny gap where their deity of choice could still exist, and that is enough to justify their entire theology.
RFK would just have to make one half-arsed point to "win".

Yes, you can!
You seem to defice 'winning a debate' as convincing each and every one of your opponent's fans, which is obviously impossible. I don't even think that it will take hours before they post clips of 'X DESTROYS Y' in debate'. Minutes will do it.

If that is your criterion, you might as well warn against any kind of criticism of Peterson or Trump or RFK Jr. or any of the other idiots. Articles criticizing them won't convince their fans of anything. It is unlikely that they'll even read them.

And yet, the recent Fox interview with Trump may only have managed to persuade the MAGA crowd to switch to Newsmax or OANN, but it was pretty obvious to everybody else that Trump was the 'loser', and he wasn't even up against a real opponent in a real debate.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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