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Old 30th June 2023, 07:35 AM   #121
dirtywick
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
no, you can't.

just look at Jordan Peterson embarrassing himself regularly when debating someone with actual expertise.
And yet, within hours you will find YT clips of "Peterson DESTROYS X in debate!!!!"


It's EXACTLY like convincing people that there is no God: they will withdraw to the last tiny gap where their deity of choice could still exist, and that is enough to justify their entire theology.
RFK would just have to make one half-arsed point to "win".
big part of why the steven crowders, ben shapiros, tim pools, those guys go to colleges or protests to generate their debate content against people totally unprepared for a debate. these guys aren't even looking to debate at all really, they want a 15-30 second clip that can go viral on tik-tok so they can push subscriptions and super chats and funnel ad revenue their way. but that's beginner stuff and there's an easier way to set up that kind of revenue model if you have the clout, and that's the podcast tours.

the podcast tours rfk is doing work a little differently, but it's essentially the same idea on a bigger scale. instead of a confrontational debate, you're just trying to get rogan to like you. a good rogan appearance, and there's 100 rogan imitator and hater podcasts lined up after.

i mean, if you're trying to inform people of stuff and don't have a buffalo trace sponsorship deal, an all meat subscription based diet, own a supplement company, there's not a lot of point in going on shows where that the entire purpose of their existence
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Old 30th June 2023, 07:38 AM   #122
dann
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
There are people like:

The Real Truther

Avi Bitterman, MD

There are others who have said they want to debate, but I have less knowledge of their ability to debate.

I don't know any of them, but in the context we're talking about their ability to debate would be the main point. It is very far from fact-checking. Each and every one of the people behind Science-Based Medicine would probably be able to deliver a scathing critique of RFK Jr., but that is not the same thing as debating him. It would probably require a lot of training with audiences. RFK Jr. has that. He knows from experience which arguments, alleged facts and catchphrases will be well received by people. A serious scientist doesn't have that experience. They won't know how to play an audience of average Janes and Joes.

Maybe it would be better to do it the other way 'round from what I proposed: Have a small handful of skilled debaters study immunology!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 30th June 2023 at 07:40 AM.
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Old 30th June 2023, 08:24 AM   #123
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Not necessarily related to his Anti-vax nuttery, but the Kennedy campaign just made a gaff regarding an on-line tweet...

From: Yahoo News
The political nepo-baby posted ― and later deleted without explanation ― a tweet of a woman in a Kennedy 2024 hoodie after people kept asking the photo’s country of origin. Although the tweet and the photo were both intended to promote Kennedy Jr. with American voters, many people got skeptical after noticing the pic was actually a photoshopped stock photo that was taken in a country that uses the Cyrillic alphabet. Like, say, Russia?

Now, it is quite possible that this was a simple accident... some low-level campaign minion just did a google search and used the first stock photo they found. But a more cynical person might wonder why the first image found was a (possibly) Russian one, since results are often affected by a person's past search history.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg kennedy.JPG (29.8 KB, 374 views)
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Old 30th June 2023, 10:57 PM   #124
dann
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QAnon follower Mike Flynn is a fan:
Quote:
@RobertKennedyJr scares the he!! out of the @DNC because he seeks to unify all Americans and clearly demonstrates the intellect and leadership to do so.
General Mike Flynn (Twitter, June 29, 2023)
(Retweeted by #TargetedIndividuals.)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 30th June 2023, 11:58 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
QAnon follower Mike Flynn is a fan:

(Retweeted by #TargetedIndividuals.)
If Mike Flynn is a fan then that settles it. One looney recommending another looney does not make either of them sane.
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Old 1st July 2023, 12:23 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
If Mike Flynn is a fan then that settles it. One looney recommending another looney does not make either of them sane.
It's the Ideology version of Collateralized Bond Obligations - throw enough Junk together and pretend that in aggregate it becomes AAA.
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Old 1st July 2023, 12:34 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's the Ideology version of Collateralized Bond Obligations - throw enough Junk together and pretend that in aggregate it becomes AAA.
Yeah! Whatever he said!
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Old 1st July 2023, 02:15 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I don't know any of them, but in the context we're talking about their ability to debate would be the main point. It is very far from fact-checking. Each and every one of the people behind Science-Based Medicine would probably be able to deliver a scathing critique of RFK Jr., but that is not the same thing as debating him. It would probably require a lot of training with audiences. RFK Jr. has that. He knows from experience which arguments, alleged facts and catchphrases will be well received by people. A serious scientist doesn't have that experience. They won't know how to play an audience of average Janes and Joes.

Maybe it would be better to do it the other way 'round from what I proposed: Have a small handful of skilled debaters study immunology!
I know the difference.

The Real Truther hosts Twitter spaces about three or four times a week in which he debates people who are anti-vaxx, or who are pro-IVM etc… you can search his timeline if you are so inclined.

Avi Bitterman debated Steve Kirsch and various others. This is when Kirsch was claiming no one would debate him and that he would pay people 10,000 dollars if they debated him. Avi Bitterman debated Kirsch for four hours but Kirsch didn’t pay up. You can search his timeline or You Tube for the debate if so inclined.

I only linked to the fact-checking posts because it was in those that they stated their willingness to debate RFK Jr in Hotez’s place. Of course, they still haven’t got the call from Rogan and RFK Jr as far as I know.
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Old 3rd July 2023, 12:15 AM   #129
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Interesting. I can see that Avi Bitterman has an almost three-hour-long video about vaccines:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

I'll give it a try, but it worries me that he seems to be more interested in the themes of abortion and veganism.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd July 2023, 12:18 AM   #130
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RFK Jr. resurrects an old antivax half-truth about “saline placebos” in randomized controlled trials of vaccines (Science-Based Medicine, July 3, 2023)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th July 2023, 12:08 AM   #131
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How RFK Jr. helped get Samoan kids killed by measles:
Quote:
Don’t call RFK Jr. a “political maverick” or “vaccine skeptic.” As Mehdi notes, his anti-vaccine effort has real-life consequences. For proof, just look at the 2019 measles outbreak in Samoa, where dozens of children died thanks to a steep drop in vaccinations. Mehdi’s deep dive looks at the deadly cost of the anti-vaccine movement Kennedy has boosted.
RFK Jr., anti-vaxxers, and a measles outbreak: Mehdi’s deep dive (MSNBC on YouTube, July 6, 2023 - 9:53 min.)
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th July 2023, 02:13 PM   #132
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Did his lawsuit get settled? I cannot find anything recent on it.

Mercola and Kennedy Sue Senator Elizabeth Warren
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Old 9th July 2023, 03:35 AM   #133
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If elected ...
Quote:
“I do not believe that infectious disease is an enormous threat to human health,” Kennedy added. The presidential hopeful stated that if he assumed office, he would target medical journals and redirect funding grants away from epidemiology.
RFK Jr. Claims ‘Vaccine Research’ Likely Responsible for HIV and the Spanish Flu (RollingStone, June 27, 2023)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th July 2023, 11:00 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Solitaire View Post
Did his lawsuit get settled? I cannot find anything recent on it.

Mercola and Kennedy Sue Senator Elizabeth Warren

Kennedy et al. asked the US District Court in Seattle to grant a preliminary injunction against Senator Warren. On 9 May 2022, District Judge Barbara J Rothstein denied that request.

They appealed that denial of their request for a preliminary injunction. On 4 May 2023, a three-judge panel of the US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit denied that appeal.

From the summary of that panel's opinion:

Quote:
The panel affirmed the district court's order denying plaintiffs' request for a preliminary injunction that challenged a letter sent by Senator Elizabeth Warren to Amazon's Chief Executive Officer requesting that the online retailer modify its algorithms so that they would no longer direct consumers to plaintiffs' book titled The Truth About COVID-19: Exposing the Great Reset, Lockdowns, Vaccine Passports, and the New Normal.

....The district court concluded that plaintiffs failed to raise a serious First Amendment question and that the equitable considerations did not weigh in their favor.

....

Turning to the merits, the panel held that because the plaintiffs did not raise a serious question on the merits of their First Amendment claim, the district court did not abuse its discretion by denying a preliminary injunction....lower courts have drawn a sharp line wherein a government official's attempt to persuade is permissible government speech, while an attempt to coerce is unlawful government censorship.

The panel...agreed with the district court that Senator Warren's letter did not cross the constitutional line between persuasion and coercion....
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Old 9th July 2023, 12:18 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
If elected ...
Looks like Trump isn't the only presidential candidate who has a problem with reality.
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Old 9th July 2023, 04:06 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Solitaire View Post
Did his lawsuit get settled? I cannot find anything recent on it.

Mercola and Kennedy Sue Senator Elizabeth Warren
Partnering with Mercola? I don't think Kennedy can sink any lower.
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Old 9th July 2023, 04:18 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Partnering with Mercola? I don't think Kennedy can sink any lower.
It’s entirely in keeping with who he is. He is an Uber-anti-vaxxer.

Remember he did that March on Washington with Del Bigtree. We’re also seeing that Bret Weinstein, who some of his defenders said was not against all vaccines, just the Covid one, is essentially a consumer and propagandist for all the anti-vaxx talking points.

He recently has a “Health Policy Roundtable” with Mercola, Tenpenny and, I think Pierre Kory and a bunch of other anti-vaxx and alt-meds grifters.
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Old 9th July 2023, 07:00 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
It’s entirely in keeping with who he is. He is an Uber-anti-vaxxer.

Remember he did that March on Washington with Del Bigtree. We’re also seeing that Bret Weinstein, who some of his defenders said was not against all vaccines, just the Covid one, is essentially a consumer and propagandist for all the anti-vaxx talking points.

He recently has a “Health Policy Roundtable” with Mercola, Tenpenny and, I think Pierre Kory and a bunch of other anti-vaxx and alt-meds grifters.
Yes, and it's not just anti-vax nonsense, Mercola/Natural News is all kinds of conspiracy theories and pseudoscience, and Kennedy seems to believe them.
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Old 9th July 2023, 07:13 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
It’s entirely in keeping with who he is. He is an Uber-anti-vaxxer.

Remember he did that March on Washington with Del Bigtree. We’re also seeing that Bret Weinstein, who some of his defenders said was not against all vaccines, just the Covid one, is essentially a consumer and propagandist for all the anti-vaxx talking points.

He recently has a “Health Policy Roundtable” with Mercola, Tenpenny and, I think Pierre Kory and a bunch of other anti-vaxx and alt-meds grifters.
Perhaps it would have been more correct to say: A bunch of anti-vaxx and alt-meds grifters including Mercola, Tenpenny and, I think Pierre Kory, glommed onto a totally gullible "famous name" in the form of Robert F. Kennedy Jr, and have totally suckered him.
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Old 9th July 2023, 11:01 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Perhaps it would have been more correct to say: A bunch of anti-vaxx and alt-meds grifters including Mercola, Tenpenny and, I think Pierre Kory, glommed onto a totally gullible "famous name" in the form of Robert F. Kennedy Jr, and have totally suckered him.
Maybe. But RFK is himself an absolute and utter grifter of the first order. He is not merely a gullible puppet but someone who has made a lucrative career out of peddling BS.

He was the headline speaker at that march on Washington, wrote that insane book about Anthony Fauci and has become perhaps the leading light of the moden anti-vaxx conspiracy movement.

There is a good take-down of his book by the conservative writer Theodore Dalrymple who was, himself, a doctor and has thankfully not jumped on the crazy train to anti-vaxxville...

Link
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Old 10th July 2023, 04:43 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Maybe. But RFK is himself an absolute and utter grifter of the first order. He is not merely a gullible puppet but someone who has made a lucrative career out of peddling BS.

He was the headline speaker at that march on Washington, wrote that insane book about Anthony Fauci and has become perhaps the leading light of the moden anti-vaxx conspiracy movement.

There is a good take-down of his book by the conservative writer Theodore Dalrymple who was, himself, a doctor and has thankfully not jumped on the crazy train to anti-vaxxville...

Link
I still suspect people are preying on a mind that is definitely slipping its gears of late. In the US, the Kennedy name still has cachet. So it becomes easy to use one of that famous clan to mouth your specious nonsense...for profit, of course. Little voices in his ear...

"You have influence! Say these things we both know are true! You need to convince them and stop people silencing your views!"

And, "You must write that book about how wrong Fauci was, because people will believe you! And us..."

And, "We need your help and brand power to lead a march in Washington - then they will listen to us! Are you with us, sir?"
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Old 10th July 2023, 07:20 AM   #142
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The guy has been staunchly Anti-vaxx since 2005 when he wrote a piece for Salon.
If his gears are slipping then it's indistinguishable from his behaviour these past 18 years
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Old 10th July 2023, 07:22 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
The guy has been staunchly Anti-vaxx since 2005 when he wrote a piece for Salon.
If his gears are slipping then it's indistinguishable from his behaviour these past 18 years
Quite so. But guys like Mercola have been grifting their **** for longer than that.
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Old 15th July 2023, 04:59 AM   #144
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Kennedy tweeted

Quote:
Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian youth have already died because America's foreign policy establishment manipulated their country into war to fulfill vain + futile geopolitical fantasy. Now, rather than acknowledge failure, Biden admin prepares to sacrifice American lives too.
https://twitter.com/RobertKennedyJr/...YCtdViOTw&s=19
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Old 15th July 2023, 07:51 AM   #145
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This is insane stuff.

I heard about the dinner party that was apparently a very flatulent affair, but had not heard this...

Quote:
Democratic presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr. dished out wild COVID-19 conspiracy theories this week during a press event at an Upper East Side restaurant, claiming the bug was a genetically engineered bioweapon that may have been “ethnically targeted” to spare Ashkenazi Jews and Chinese people.

Kennedy floated the idea during a question-and-answer portion of raucous booze and fart-filled dinner at Tony’s Di Napoli on East 63d Street.

“COVID-19. There is an argument that it is ethnically targeted. COVID-19 attacks certain races disproportionately,” Kennedy said. “COVID-19 is targeted to attack Caucasians and black people. The people who are most immune are Ashkenazi Jews and Chinese.”
Link

Yes, I know it is the New York Post, but there is video of RFK Jr saying all this and also making bizarre statements about how the war in "The Ukraine" [sic] is for collecting Ukrainian DNA and Russian DNA.
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Old 15th July 2023, 11:51 AM   #146
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At this point the shocking thing would be if he said something that wasn't batcrap crazy.
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Old 15th July 2023, 12:38 PM   #147
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Lock him up! Lock him up! Lock him up! Lock him up! Lock him up! Lock him up! Lock him up!


To somewhat misquote Scrooge, "They do still have Lunatic Asylums, don't they?"
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Old 15th July 2023, 12:54 PM   #148
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I'm sure his father would be very proud of him.

NOT!
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Old 15th July 2023, 09:57 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
This is insane stuff.

I heard about the dinner party that was apparently a very flatulent affair, but had not heard this...



Link

Yes, I know it is the New York Post, but there is video of RFK Jr saying all this and also making bizarre statements about how the war in "The Ukraine" [sic] is for collecting Ukrainian DNA and Russian DNA.
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Old 15th July 2023, 10:50 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
This is insane stuff.

I heard about the dinner party that was apparently a very flatulent affair, but had not heard this...



Link

Yes, I know it is the New York Post, but there is video of RFK Jr saying all this and also making bizarre statements about how the war in "The Ukraine" [sic] is for collecting Ukrainian DNA and Russian DNA.
Kennedy is denying some of the NYP's report...sort of. But his explanation isn't much less crazy :

Quote:
After a broad backlash to his comments, first reported by the New York Post, Kennedy took to Twitter to defend himself, calling the reporting “mistaken” and writing that he did not believe Covid-19 had been deliberately engineered against specific ethnicities.

“I have never, ever suggested that the Covid-19 virus was targeted to spare Jews,” Kennedy wrote.

Instead, Kennedy claimed, he had meant to express his belief that the United States and other governments were developing “ethnically targeted bioweapons,” broadly citing a 2021 study on genetic susceptibility to Covid-19 as “proof of concept” that such bioweapons could be created.
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Old 15th July 2023, 10:56 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Tweet from RFK Jr.:
Quote:


Robert F. Kennedy Jr
@RobertKennedyJr
In 2019 actor and comedian Volodymyr Zelensky ran as the peace candidate winning the Ukrainian presidency with 70% of the vote. As Benjamin Abelow observes in his brilliant book, “How the West Brought War to Ukraine,” Zelensky almost certainly could have avoided the 2022 war with Russia simply by uttering five words — “I will not join NATO.” But pressured by NeoCons in the Biden White House, and by violent fascist elements within the Ukrainian government, Zelensky integrated his army with NATO’s and allowed the U.S. to place nuclear-capable Aegis missile launchers along Ukraine’s 1,200-mile border with Russia. These were provocations that senior U.S. diplomats like post-WWII foreign policy architect George Kennan, former U.S. Defense Secretary Bill Perry, and former U.S. ambassador to Moscow Jack Matlock had long described as “red lines” for Russian leadership. Let’s face it, the Neocons wanted this war with Russia, just as they wanted war with Iraq. Listen here to NATO Supreme Commander General Wesley Clark describe how White House Neocons justified the Iraq invasion:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=FNt7s_Wed_4
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Old 15th July 2023, 11:11 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
So, "they haven't created ethnically targeted bio weapons but they will"?

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Old 16th July 2023, 12:46 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I see, so it's "I'm not saying the conspiracy theory is true, I'm just ASKING QUESTIONS that dignify it with a level of seriousness that only someone who believes in it would have when talking about it"
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Old 16th July 2023, 06:55 AM   #154
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He cannot win with that voice.

He's just a useful idiot for the rightwing. ALL HE TALKS ABOUT in interviews is anti-vaccine or anti-intervention. And he'll probably get disowned by these ghouls for his social justice views anyway.

Democratic voters are not eager to prosecute persecute Dr. Fauci.
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Old 16th July 2023, 08:04 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Tweet from RFK Jr.:
Russian invasion of Crimea - February 2014.

Zelenskyy inaugurated - May 2019.

Obviously his fault.

All Russia had to do was say, "We will leave Crimea".
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Old 16th July 2023, 12:42 PM   #156
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You heard it here first: I predict that in the unlikely event the Trump doesn't get the GOP presidential nomination, he'll keep running anyhow with RFK Jr as his running mate. They seriously think alike. For some definition of "think".
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Old 16th July 2023, 12:51 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
You heard it here first: I predict that in the unlikely event the Trump doesn't get the GOP presidential nomination, he'll keep running anyhow with RFK Jr as his running mate. They seriously think alike. For some definition of "think".
While I don't agree, I'd love to see that happen. Remove the true MAGA nut votes for Trump from the rest of the "I don't like Trump but I won't vote for a Dem" votes and it would secure a Dem win.
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Old 16th July 2023, 02:23 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
You heard it here first: I predict that in the unlikely event the Trump doesn't get the GOP presidential nomination, he'll keep running anyhow with RFK Jr as his running mate. They seriously think alike. For some definition of "think".
Throw in that Trump is running from prison and you'll have the Grand Trifecta of Fail!
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When Republican politicians were young, they were the kids who watched James Bond movies and said "I want to grow up to be just like [insert name of villain here]."
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Old 16th July 2023, 03:48 PM   #159
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He seems like a standard 21st century American politician to me.
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Old 17th July 2023, 03:57 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
He cannot win with that voice.

He's just a useful idiot for the rightwing. ALL HE TALKS ABOUT in interviews is anti-vaccine or anti-intervention. And he'll probably get disowned by these ghouls for his social justice views anyway.

Democratic voters are not eager to prosecute persecute Dr. Fauci.
He seems to be rapidly dropping his social justice views rapidly in favour of far right comspiracy fodder.
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