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Old 13th July 2023, 03:09 PM   #321
lobosrul5
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
The USA already incarcerates more people per capita than El Salvador: 629 vs 564 [source]. So by your measure the US should have a much lower rate of gun violence than it does now, and it should be 10% lower than El Salvador's.

By contrast, Canada incarcerates only 104 people per 100,000—1/6 that of the States—yet its gun-related homicide rate is only 2.1/100,000; compare that with the States at 6.8 [source.]

Your idea that simply throwing people in jail would reduce the homicide rate in the States seems incredibly simplistic.

ETA: Ninja'd by Steve!
So, to be draconian like El Salvador we need to incarcerate... fewer people.

Although, I think perhaps our numbers are skewed. We have states that put people in prison for many years for a gram of weed. Second caveat though is, those states have some of the highest violent crime rates. Maybe we're putting the wrong people in jail for the wrong things

If the murder rate in "middle america"/suburbia hit 55/100k, not only would the American people accept drastic action, they'd demand it.
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Old 13th July 2023, 03:22 PM   #322
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nobody wants to live in el salvador
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Old 13th July 2023, 03:28 PM   #323
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Heres are the top 10 states that incarcerate the most people per capita, and their rank in states by homicide rate. Both are from 2018.

Louisianna #2
Oklahoma #15
Mississipi #1
Georgia #11
Kentucky #23
Alabama #3
Arkansas #9
Arizona #22
Texas #26
Tennessee #8.

Doesn't seem to be working too well. Those states should have the lowest homicide rates.

1.3% of all adults in Louisiana and Oklahoma are currently in prison... jesus.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 13th July 2023 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 13th July 2023, 04:57 PM   #324
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You see .. you incarcerate them .. but then you let them out ! Just a joke .. I don't really see a solution.
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Old 13th July 2023, 07:24 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Suspension of Constitutional rights, application of martial law, to fight a murder rate that is not really that bad? 55 murders per 100,000 people really isn't worth martial law.
The other thing that I don't get about this whole discussion, apart from the idea that some murders "count" while others don't, is this whole idea that there is an "acceptable" rate of murder.
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Old 13th July 2023, 11:26 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Q: Are you recommending Latin American methods to solve the US's problems?
And the situation is even more problematic in that there's an awful lot of people who are not criminals being rounded up and detained in oubliette situations without even the benefit of a pretence at justice and that an awful lot of criminals will be simply left alone, given Bukeke's MO and penchant for kickbacks.
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Old 14th July 2023, 12:25 AM   #327
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The experiment isn't done - only when every American always carries a gun (openly and concealed), and every person we don't like is incarcerated, and still the gun deaths don't go down we will know that maybe more guns and prisons aren't the whole of the solution.
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Old 14th July 2023, 07:28 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The other thing that I don't get about this whole discussion, apart from the idea that some murders "count" while others don't, is this whole idea that there is an "acceptable" rate of murder.
There absolutely is acceptable rate of murder. It's a rate, at which society stops trying to change it. In another words, current rate.
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Old 14th July 2023, 02:06 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
Yes. Round up the criminals and put them behind bars. See El Salvador.
Right.....
Quote:
El Salvador saw a murder rate of 52.02 per 100,000 inhabitants, making it the most dangerous country for this kind of crime worldwide as of 2023
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Old 14th July 2023, 04:07 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Right.....

Source ?
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Old 15th July 2023, 09:16 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Suspension of Constitutional rights, application of martial law, to fight a murder rate that is not really that bad? 55 murders per 100,000 people really isn't worth martial law.

Yeah, tell that to the people who were terrorized. Itís not just the murders, but all the other ill effects of free criminality. The extortion payments just to keep a business open. The robberies. No one seems to care about the the victims of crime. All this boo-hoo for the poor criminals. Itís no accident that the current President there has a 90% approval rating.
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Old 15th July 2023, 09:37 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
Yeah, tell that to the people who were terrorized. Itís not just the murders, but all the other ill effects of free criminality. The extortion payments just to keep a business open. The robberies. No one seems to care about the the victims of crime. All this boo-hoo for the poor criminals. Itís no accident that the current President there has a 90% approval rating.
understand: This is a thread about mass shootings in the USA, not about the failings of society in El Salvador.

Among those failings is incomprehension of the meaning of constitutional government.

BTW, I've been hearing about "coddling criminals" all my adult life, always from Republicans of the fashionable* sort., i.e., rightie tightie whitespacers. I'm 81. How & hell old are you?


* I badly want to spell that "facsionable," but I won't. Unless you tell me it's all right.
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Old 15th July 2023, 11:16 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post

* I badly want to spell that "facsionable," but I won't. Unless you tell me it's all right.
Works for me!
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Old 15th July 2023, 02:19 PM   #334
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4 people are dead in a shooting in Hampton, Georgia, and a suspect is still at large, official says.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/15/us/ha...-mass-shooting
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Old 15th July 2023, 02:20 PM   #335
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1 police officer is killed, 2 others injured in Fargo, ND shooting.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/15/us/po...o-north-dakota
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Old 15th July 2023, 05:21 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
1 police officer is killed, 2 others injured in Fargo, ND shooting.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/15/us/po...o-north-dakota
Not a mass-shooting.
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Old 15th July 2023, 05:23 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
Yeah, tell that to the people who were terrorized. Itís not just the murders, but all the other ill effects of free criminality. The extortion payments just to keep a business open. The robberies. No one seems to care about the the victims of crime. All this boo-hoo for the poor criminals. Itís no accident that the current President there has a 90% approval rating.
Saddam Hussein had similar approval numbers.
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Old 16th July 2023, 04:51 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Works for me!
Not for me. "Fascionable", yes ("fascist").
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Old 16th July 2023, 04:53 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Not a mass-shooting.
How do you think the family of the dead police officer feel about that? Do you think it provides them with any comfort?
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Old 16th July 2023, 05:24 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
Yeah, tell that to the people who were terrorized. Itís not just the murders, but all the other ill effects of free criminality. The extortion payments just to keep a business open. The robberies. No one seems to care about the the victims of crime. All this boo-hoo for the poor criminals. Itís no accident that the current President there has a 90% approval rating.
But you want to adopt El Salvador's approach which would mean that there would be many, many more people who would be terrorized. Seem to be at odds with you also wanting to see less people terrorised.
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Old 16th July 2023, 05:52 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Not a mass-shooting.
Well that's a relief
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Old 16th July 2023, 08:45 AM   #342
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Piff

Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Not for me. "Fascionable", yes ("fascist").
You challenge my spelling? Pff. The best minds in lower education have marvelled at my alphabetic creativity! Some may well have committed seppuku to atone for their inability to change my awsome iltteracy.

Try your best. Pff.
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Old 16th July 2023, 09:25 AM   #343
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i forget, is el salvador one of those places where the prisoners covered in tattoos of the number 13 and carrying machetes?
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Old 16th July 2023, 09:31 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But you want to adopt El Salvador's approach which would mean that there would be many, many more people who would be terrorized. Seem to be at odds with you also wanting to see less people terrorised.
Lefties are weird to me. They don't seem to care at all about victims. They don't seem to care at all about the consequences of their great policies. I'd suspect that a Salvadorian would be bewildered that he should be ashamed that his country is safer now. Western progressives are a cancer.
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Old 16th July 2023, 11:16 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
Lefties are weird to me. They don't seem to care at all about victims. They don't seem to care at all about the consequences of their great policies. I'd suspect that a Salvadorian would be bewildered that he should be ashamed that his country is safer now. Western progressives are a cancer.
I love satire.
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Old 16th July 2023, 11:18 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Andy_Ross View Post
I love satire.
The projection is strong with this one.
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Old 17th July 2023, 01:06 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
Lefties are weird to me. They don't seem to care at all about victims. They don't seem to care at all about the consequences of their great policies. I'd suspect that a Salvadorian would be bewildered that he should be ashamed that his country is safer now. Western progressives are a cancer.
I think youíre twisting the narrative somewhat, but, anyhow, right wingers in the USA are the same. They do not care about the victims, proclaiming that dead children are the price of freedom.
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Old 17th July 2023, 04:34 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
Lefties are weird to me. They don't seem to care at all about victims. They don't seem to care at all about the consequences of their great policies. I'd suspect that a Salvadorian would be bewildered that he should be ashamed that his country is safer now. Western progressives are a cancer.
Thanks for letting us know your view on "lefties" but you forgot to reply to my post.

Can you explain why you want the USA to adopt policies that will increase the number of murders per capita whilst also claiming you want less people to be terrorised by murder? That is a contradiction.
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Old 17th July 2023, 04:36 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
I think you’re twisting the narrative somewhat, but, anyhow, right wingers in the USA are the same. They do not care about the victims, proclaiming that dead children are the price of freedom.
That's not true they are really sorry that kids have to be shot to death in their classrooms but freeeedum has to be paid for and they always have them in their thoughts and prayers.
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Old 17th July 2023, 05:54 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
Lefties are weird to me. They don't seem to care at all about victims. They don't seem to care at all about the consequences of their great policies. I'd suspect that a Salvadorian would be bewildered that he should be ashamed that his country is safer now. Western progressives are a cancer.
So you think that Progressives are a disease that must be cured or cut out? Hitler felt similarly about the Jews. What do you think is the final solution to the "Progressive Question"?
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Old 17th July 2023, 05:56 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's not true they are really sorry that kids have to be shot to death in their classrooms but freeeedum has to be paid for and they always have them in their thoughts and prayers.
Many of these folks oppose any gun control laws, because they believe that the price of freedom is dead Americans and they are ok with that.
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Old 17th July 2023, 06:52 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Not a mass-shooting.
Since a woman was also shot, the total is four so it is a mass shooting.
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Old 17th July 2023, 11:21 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
i forget, is el salvador one of those places where the prisoners covered in tattoos of the number 13 and carrying machetes?
El Salvador is one of those place where they mass arrest innocent people and throw them into KZs while leaving violent gang members free.
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Old 18th July 2023, 02:44 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Source ?
Statistica. The same site as previously cited.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...0for%20murders.
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Old 18th July 2023, 02:57 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
You see .. you incarcerate them .. but then you let them out ! Just a joke .. I don't really see a solution.
No, before you let them out you make their life a living hell, so they get out as broken people.

That will somehow make things better.
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Old 18th July 2023, 02:57 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
i forget, is el salvador one of those places where the prisoners covered in tattoos of the number 13 and carrying machetes?
Yep, MS-13 is an endemic problem, along with 18th Street and the lingering effects of the Salvadoran Civil War.

The murder rate remains incredibly high, by civilised standards (or even USAian), despite the carefully cultivated lies of Bukele and his believers. The oft quoted "90%" approval rating is from his first month in office in 2019.

But we are starting off-topic into the area of silly, authoritarian fascist fantasies.
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Old 18th July 2023, 03:00 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
El Salvador is one of those place where they mass arrest innocent people and throw them into KZs while leaving violent gang members free.
There is also a carefully established set of policies to play down incidents by lying about them. Try and report a disappearance and you'll be given excuses and probable murder won't be logged.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 18th July 2023, 03:02 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
Lefties are weird to me. They don't seem to care at all about victims. They don't seem to care at all about the consequences of their great policies. I'd suspect that a Salvadorian would be bewildered that he should be ashamed that his country is safer now. Western progressives are a cancer.
Western European nations jail fewer citizens than the USA. By your logic we should be violent hell holes and yet by almost every measure available countries like those in Scandinavia are far happier and more prosperous as a whole than the USA.
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Old 18th July 2023, 10:48 AM   #359
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You'd be safer putting a gun into the hands of a chimpanzee than into the hands of the average human gun-sucker. The chimpanzee wouldn't find any use for it, and would quickly lose interest.

Mr. GunSucker has no use for it either, but that doesn't deter or discourage him, nossir. In his hands, a firearm of the preferred type, specifically a large-mag centerfire pistol or an assault rifle, is simply a destructive device.

And that's my cue to re-introduce a proposal I've made before: Broaden the existing class of Destructive Devices to include ARs (and most autoloading handguns if I had my druthers). These are subject to strict rules, and are almost never found in civilian hands. (Goodness, the right to own mortars and anti-tank rifles is actually being infringed!)

At the same time the BATF regs are changed, a buyback period will start, during which the newly restricted shootin' irons can be turned in for reasonable compensation, no questions asked or names taken.

And after that, proscription, with criminal penalties for anybody who doesn't surrender his destructive device.

The Second Amendment will sit there untouched.
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Old 18th July 2023, 11:44 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post

The Second Amendment will sit there untouched.
I give it roughly a zero percent chance of standing up on appeal to the present Court.
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