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Old 9th August 2023, 04:31 PM   #361
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Good article on the timeline before Jan 6 regarding Cheesebro mostly (Co-conspirator 5). Pretty detailed - he seems to have played a bigger role in the fake electors scheme that revealed previously.

Cheesbro comes across as a total cultist. Smart but unrealistic. He knew there were going to be issues with fake electors, including with the Supreme Court, but schemed ways to avoid those issues.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/0...rator-00110458
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Old 9th August 2023, 04:39 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Andy_Ross View Post
He's off again
This is how NewsMax is reporting it (and I use the term "reporting" loosely).

Quote:
Rep. Barry Loudermilk, R-Ga., chair of the Subcommittee on Oversight for the Committee on House Administration, told Fox News that former Speaker Nancy Pelosi's partisan Jan. panel, which was comprised of Democrats and two anti-Trump Republicans in the previous Congress, failed to adequately preserve documents, data, and video depositions.

Loudermilk said that he was contacted by a defense attorney, who needed access to key information in one of the video depositions. The committee then realized it did not have the videos he was seeking.

A group called the "Blue Team," within the Jan. 6 subcommittee committee, had been directed to investigate security failures at the Capitol, according to Loudermilk. The lawmaker told Fox News that sources told him the Blue Team was "shut down" by the panel to focus on placing blame on Trump.
Somehow, I suspect the J6C did not destroy or fail to preserve their evidence.
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Old 9th August 2023, 05:16 PM   #363
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Old 9th August 2023, 05:26 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Ummm..... Pearl Harbor?
Aleutian islands of Attu and Kiska?
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Old 9th August 2023, 06:57 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Ummm..... Pearl Harbor?
Ummm.... was Pearl Harbor invaded by fascists?
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Old 9th August 2023, 06:59 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Ummm.... was Pearl Harbor invaded by fascists?
Of course not, it was bombed by the Germans.

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Old 9th August 2023, 07:02 PM   #367
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Well, it's been a few days since the Trump behaviors that people were saying could land him in jail, and he doesn't seem to be in jail or headed that way...
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Old 10th August 2023, 07:22 AM   #368
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Quote:
Quote:
The USA is the only country that fought fascism successfully in WW2 without ever experiencing fascism on its own soil. (The UK saw the Channel Islands occupied, and caught Nazi hell first hand.) That may have something to do with the undoubted attraction fascism has for certain thin-witted types in America.
Ummm..... Pearl Harbor?
Well, technically the U.S. was attacked by Japan, but Pearl Harbor (or any of the surrounding area) was never occupied. (I assume the opening post was referring to some sort of occupation or long-term political control by fascists when they used the phrase 'experienced fascism'.
Quote:
Aleutian islands of Attu and Kiska?
That is perhaps a little bit more relevant... American land was occupied for several months (and American citizens were under the "control" of the Japanese military.) I think the isolated nature of the islands and the small population base makes that particular incident of the war easy to overlook.

I think the original post had sound reasoning... that the lack of SIGNFICANT exposure to fascism may have affected American's perception of the dangers. The problem is the absolute nature of "never experiencing fascism on its soil", which was incorrect from a technical point of view.
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Old 10th August 2023, 07:31 AM   #369
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Some additional information has come out about the investigation:

From: Reuters
The U.S. special counsel investigating Donald Trump obtained a search warrant for the former president's Twitter account in January and the company delayed complying, according to a U.S. appeals court opinion on Wednesday...While Trump's tweets are publicly viewable, the company also holds non-public information on accounts like direct messages, drafts of tweets, location data and the type of device used to send tweets.

They probably wanted that data so that they could confirm that yes, it was Trump sending various tweets, and not some minion working for him.

Note that the government could have got a subpoena instead of a search warrant, but they were likely concerned that evidence could have been destroyed.

It should also be noted that Musk/Twitter/X tried to protect Trump by not turning data over when requested (and as a result had to pay thousands of dollars in fines.)
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Old 10th August 2023, 07:33 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post

It should also be noted that Musk/Twitter/X tried to protect Trump by not turning data over when requested (and as a result had to pay thousands of dollars in fines.)
That's entirely possible, but it's also worth considering the delay may have been entirely because Twitter, as a company, is highly dysfunctional generally. Wouldn't be surprised if this was something that simply got overlooked because of Musk's terrible management rather than a general attempt to stymie the investigation. Evil or just stupid, hard to say with Musk.
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Old 10th August 2023, 07:42 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
That's entirely possible, but it's also worth considering the delay may have been entirely because Twitter, as a company, is highly dysfunctional generally. Wouldn't be surprised if this was something that simply got overlooked because of Musk's terrible management rather than a general attempt to stymie the investigation. Evil or just stupid, hard to say with Musk.
I can somewhat see this as a possibility, but I really think that it's more deliberate than that. Remember the reason they delayed is because they tried to fight the legality of the subpeona.

I don't think there would have been any problem if they had just gone to the judge and said, can we get a couple extra days to get things in order? Judges grant extensions all the time, and Beryl would have probably said, ok, when can you have it done?

But no, they got belligerent about it, and the judge wasn't pleased.
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Old 10th August 2023, 07:48 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Quote:
...it's also worth considering the delay may have been entirely because Twitter, as a company, is highly dysfunctional generally. Wouldn't be surprised if this was something that simply got overlooked because of Musk's terrible management rather than a general attempt to stymie the investigation.
I can somewhat see this as a possibility, but I really think that it's more deliberate than that. Remember the reason they delayed is because they tried to fight the legality of the subpeona.
The referenced article also points out that Musk wanted to inform Trump about the search warrant, but wasn't allowed to.
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Old 10th August 2023, 07:51 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I can somewhat see this as a possibility, but I really think that it's more deliberate than that. Remember the reason they delayed is because they tried to fight the legality of the subpeona.

I don't think there would have been any problem if they had just gone to the judge and said, can we get a couple extra days to get things in order? Judges grant extensions all the time, and Beryl would have probably said, ok, when can you have it done?

But no, they got belligerent about it, and the judge wasn't pleased.


Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The referenced article also points out that Musk wanted to inform Trump about the search warrant, but wasn't allowed to.
Fair enough, you've convinced me. This whole thing stinks of Musk's particular brand of brain-worms, deliberate obstinance does seem more likely.
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Old 10th August 2023, 11:06 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well, technically the U.S. was attacked by Japan, but Pearl Harbor (or any of the surrounding area) was never occupied. (I assume the opening post was referring to some sort of occupation or long-term political control by fascists when they used the phrase 'experienced fascism'.

That is perhaps a little bit more relevant... American land was occupied for several months (and American citizens were under the "control" of the Japanese military.) I think the isolated nature of the islands and the small population base makes that particular incident of the war easy to overlook.

I think the original post had sound reasoning... that the lack of SIGNFICANT exposure to fascism may have affected American's perception of the dangers. The problem is the absolute nature of "never experiencing fascism on its soil", which was incorrect from a technical point of view.
I have no argument with the intended point of "the lack of SIGNFICANT exposure to fascism may have affected American's perception of the dangers."

It's sad to see Italy, which certainly suffered the effects of Fascism, elect the nouveau fascism of Giorgia Meloni.
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Old 10th August 2023, 12:21 PM   #375
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Jack Smith wants the J6 trial to start on Jan 2 2024, figures 4 to 6 weeks to present evidence.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/10/polit...sal/index.html
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Old 10th August 2023, 12:46 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Jack Smith wants the J6 trial to start on Jan 2 2024, figures 4 to 6 weeks to present evidence.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/10/polit...sal/index.html
Hopefully Trump will need to be in a court of some kind every day of 2024 until Nov 5th.
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Old 10th August 2023, 12:55 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Jack Smith wants the J6 trial to start on Jan 2 2024, figures 4 to 6 weeks to present evidence.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/10/polit...sal/index.html
And Trump's lawyers will do everything possible to delay it into the primaries so they can claim, "See? We told you it's all election interference."
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Old 10th August 2023, 01:01 PM   #378
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Why the hell does it need to take so long???
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Old 10th August 2023, 01:04 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
Why the hell does it need to take so long???
That doesn't seem that long. That's 5 months from now.
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Old 10th August 2023, 01:15 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well, technically the U.S. was attacked by Japan, but Pearl Harbor (or any of the surrounding area) was never occupied. (I assume the opening post was referring to some sort of occupation or long-term political control by fascists when they used the phrase 'experienced fascism'.

That is perhaps a little bit more relevant... American land was occupied for several months (and American citizens were under the "control" of the Japanese military.) I think the isolated nature of the islands and the small population base makes that particular incident of the war easy to overlook.

I think the original post had sound reasoning... that the lack of SIGNFICANT exposure to fascism may have affected American's perception of the dangers. The problem is the absolute nature of "never experiencing fascism on its soil", which was incorrect from a technical point of view.
Also, the Japanese system, prior to WW2, was not fascism. It was feudalism. Not that that is really any better, but it is still a different thing.

Hans
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Old 10th August 2023, 01:16 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post

I think the original post had sound reasoning... that the lack of SIGNFICANT exposure to fascism may have affected American's perception of the dangers. The problem is the absolute nature of "never experiencing fascism on its soil", which was incorrect from a technical point of view.
The United States had an active domestic fascist project, which really only became unfashionable after WWII started and everyone decided that fascists were the baddies. Lots of rich American industrialists specifically were cheering on fascists abroad and domestically in the prewar years.
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Old 10th August 2023, 06:32 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Jack Smith wants the J6 trial to start on Jan 2 2024, figures 4 to 6 weeks to present evidence.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/10/polit...sal/index.html
A hearing on the matter will be held on Friday before Chutkan.

https://apnews.com/article/6a16656a7...626dc5b56f5588
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Old 10th August 2023, 06:57 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Also, the Japanese system, prior to WW2, was not fascism. It was feudalism. Not that that is really any better, but it is still a different thing.

Hans
True, but they were allies of the Fascists.
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Old 10th August 2023, 07:15 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
A hearing on the matter will be held on Friday before Chutkan.

https://apnews.com/article/6a16656a7...626dc5b56f5588
I don’t think that hearing will be about the trial date. It is in regards to the protective order.
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Old 10th August 2023, 07:19 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
Why the hell does it need to take so long???
Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
That doesn't seem that long. That's 5 months from now.
My question also. I don't think it's unusual to take that long, but why? As far as I know, they have everything they need to proceed. Is it a rule or something that they can't bump other trials to make room for this one?

I'm amused at The FPDJT's rant -- "It's right after the first of the year!" Well, it'll always be around something significant.
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Old 10th August 2023, 07:23 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I'm amused at The FPDJT's rant -- "It's right after the first of the year!" Well, it'll always be around something significant.
It's going to just ruin his New Years party!

eta: Melania was going to make a seven layer dip!
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Old 10th August 2023, 08:53 PM   #387
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If trump plays it right, he could be sentenced for a long prison term just in time for Good Friday.

Just so everyone gets his self-reference to Jesus better.
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Old 10th August 2023, 09:43 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don’t think that hearing will be about the trial date. It is in regards to the protective order.
Ah, thanks, my bad.

The judge is expected to set the trial date at a hearing on August 28.
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Old 10th August 2023, 11:02 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
Why the hell does it need to take so long???
Because there are a million documents to go through in pre-trial discovery, and there is no way around the fact that it all has to be read and understood.
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Old 10th August 2023, 11:36 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Because there are a million documents to go through in pre-trial discovery, and there is no way around the fact that it all has to be read and understood.
And the Trump team is kept intentionally small so that they have an excuse for taking forever to do it.
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Old 11th August 2023, 02:12 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Also, the Japanese system, prior to WW2, was not fascism. It was feudalism. Not that that is really any better, but it is still a different thing.

Hans
No, I think it is better thought of as a kind of fascism (nationalistic, racist, supremacist and imperialist with a strong corporatist economy on top), and it was absolutely not feudalist since the Meiji Restoration.
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Old 11th August 2023, 02:16 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's going to just ruin his New Years party!

eta: Melania was going to make a seven layer dip!
A beautiful dip. The best dip. People are talking about this dip. It has to be tasers to be believed, believe me. Not like “doctor” Jill Biden’s boring and poisonous dip. Or Hunter Biden’s criminal dip of crack cocaine and low-quality prostitutes.
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Old 11th August 2023, 05:13 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If trump plays it right, he could be sentenced for a long prison term just in time for Good Friday.

Just so everyone gets his self-reference to Jesus better.
If that happens I'm going to celebrate by eating so many chocolate bunnies! I wonder if I can get a chocolate orange bunny? A new tradition could emerge!
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Old 11th August 2023, 05:15 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
My question also. I don't think it's unusual to take that long, but why? As far as I know, they have everything they need to proceed. Is it a rule or something that they can't bump other trials to make room for this one?

I'm amused at The FPDJT's rant -- "It's right after the first of the year!" Well, it'll always be around something significant.
Trial by jury happens pretty rarely in our "plead guilty or we'll stack enough charges you'll die in prison for jaywalking" justice system, that when it does happen it's kind of a huge pain in the ass.

Despite our massively huge carceral state, we don't really have that much capacity for actual trials.
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Old 11th August 2023, 07:24 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If that happens I'm going to celebrate by eating so many chocolate bunnies! I wonder if I can get a chocolate orange bunny? A new tradition could emerge!
I'd be careful, could ruin your taste for chocolate and oranges forever.
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Old 11th August 2023, 10:27 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
My question also. I don't think it's unusual to take that long, but why? As far as I know, they have everything they need to proceed. Is it a rule or something that they can't bump other trials to make room for this one?

I'm amused at The FPDJT's rant -- "It's right after the first of the year!" Well, it'll always be around something significant.
It's mostly for the defense. There's a lot of prep work that goes into a trial. Things like interviewing witnesses, reviewing documents/footage, exploring legal options and case law, and sometimes even mock trials to see how a potential jury responds to certain strategies. You won't see much of this on Law & Order.
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Old 11th August 2023, 10:38 AM   #397
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Cases like these, where the crime is very serious and guilt is perfectly obvious but admitting or denying that fact can be driven by political motivations, make me worry about the concept of relying on a jury where unanimity is required so it only takes one liar to ruin it all.

Last edited by Delvo; 11th August 2023 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 11th August 2023, 10:44 AM   #398
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On the UK the judge can ask the jury for a majority verdict, one hold out doesn't mean a mistrial. Isn't that a thing in the USA?
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Old 11th August 2023, 11:25 AM   #399
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An interesting read, not so much for what it says, but more for who is saying it...

Quote:
Two prominent conservative law professors have concluded that Donald J. Trump is ineligible to be president under a provision of the Constitution that bars people who have engaged in an insurrection from holding government office. The professors are active members of the Federalist Society, the conservative legal group, and proponents of originalism, the method of interpretation that seeks to determine the Constitution’s original meaning.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...2b8b3121&ei=18
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Old 11th August 2023, 11:33 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Andy_Ross View Post
On the UK the judge can ask the jury for a majority verdict, one hold out doesn't mean a mistrial. Isn't that a thing in the USA?

No.
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