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Old 2nd August 2023, 12:07 AM   #41
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Dear, oh dear, oh dear. The Fat Orange Turd will be steaming!!!!

Judge Tanya Chutkan has been assigned to preside in the January 6 case. She is Black (a Jamaican American) and was appointed by Barack Obama. so she is bound to start getting racist death-threats from MAGA chuds

Chutkan is an experienced judge (federal bench since 2014 when she was confirmed 95-0). She has also presided over 1/6 cases previously as well as cases involving The Fat Orange Turd. After he left office, she rejected his attempt to block the release of records from his administration to the House Jan. 6 committee, writing in her decision "Presidents are not kings, and plaintiff is not president". The federal appeals court in Washington affirmed her ruling and SCOTUS rejected his appeal.

This judge isn't going to put up with any of The Fat Orange Turd's malarkey. His chances of getting delays have just taken a bug hit!
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Old 2nd August 2023, 12:12 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think those who have constanly attacked Garland and said he would never indict only have one legitmate statement to make today: How they would like their crow served.
I would give them only two choices though - regular or extra-crispy!
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Old 2nd August 2023, 12:23 AM   #43
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I think one positive aspect of Jan 6 was that it showed that the US is not on the verge of a civil war: A mob of incompetent nutjobs was all the insurrectionist leaders could rouse. The only reason those people actually got inside the Capitol was that security was unprepared and lax.

Hans
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Old 2nd August 2023, 12:25 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Not this again. I think there might be another Jan 6 type event, but not everyone in the USA is as fixated on guns and politics as you.
I don't think dubalb's statement is unreasonable.

I doubt there would be a civil war of the type when the Confederate States ceded from the Union, but that is not the only type of civil war. The Troubles in Ireland was a civil war with no borders between the belligerents. We know their are plenty of violent MAGA chuds who are very heavily armed. The whole ******* lot of them are off their rockers - and there isn't a lot that is more dangerous than armed nutcases who think they have a cause.

Its not beyond reason that a Second US Civil war would look more like Ireland from the 1960's-90's than like the US in 1861-65 - a campaign of terror, bombings, sniper attacks and mass shootings is not a far fetched suggestion.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 12:26 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think those who have constanly attacked Garland and said he would never indict only have one legitmate statement to make today: How they would like their crow served.
I have no problem coitizing Garland even now - he went out of his way not to go after any Republican other than Trump and his direct associates.

But plenty of other Republicans share responsibility for the insurrection.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 12:27 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think we will pretty much in a state of civil war if that happens.
I doubt it. Americans are too apathetic.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 12:29 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think we will pretty much in a state of civil war if that happens.
Yes, you've repeatedly said this kind of thing.

An alternative view is that there will be outrage, then a collective shrug of the shoulders and the vast majority of the US population will get on with their lives, putting food on the table and keeping body and soul together.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 12:30 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I said that we should be patient about this. It was inevitable, but they needed to get absolutely every duck in a row before proceeding, to close loopholes and document everything precisely.

Now that they've done that, the man is finished. There is no way this can end well for him. American democracy (such as it is) is saved.
Will conviction and imprisonment stop him from running?
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Old 2nd August 2023, 01:52 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Will conviction and imprisonment stop him from running?
I think there is zero chance of both these things completing before Nov 2024.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 01:54 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
To "convict someone under the 'defraud clause' of 18 U.S.C. § 371, the government need only show (1) he entered into an agreement (2) to obstruct a lawful function of the government (3) by deceitful or dishonest means and (4) at least one overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy."

I think they can do that!
I think his recorded phone call is enough to satisfy that.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 03:13 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Could Peter Navarro be considered part of it? He seemed to have an idea of what was going on with his "green bay sweep" analogy.

Mark Meadows? (There is a chance he flipped on Trump but he still seemed to be in the thick of things)
Yeah, I thought about him but Trump said (according to a Maggie Habberman report) that Meadows was too honest. Not a great resume builder for joining a conspiracy.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 03:19 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think we will pretty much in a state of civil war if that happens.
Whoa, there easy. We're not there yet.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 05:33 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Who are the Trump co-conspirators in the 2020 election interference indictment?

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/01/polit...ump-indictment


Giuliani
Eastman
Powell
Clark
Chesebro
?
From the Daily Beast...

Quote:
Although the six co-conspirators are unnamed, there is general consensus among the many excellent reporters covering the investigation about their identity: #1 Rudy Giuliani, #2 John Eastman, #3 Sydney Powell, #4 Jeffrey Clark, and #5 Kenneth Chesboro. There is not yet consensus on who is co-conspirator #6.
The question remains, who is #6?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_Six_(The_Prisoner)
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Old 2nd August 2023, 05:58 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
I doubt it. Americans are too apathetic.
I also doubt it. Acts of stochastic terrorism by MAGA dead-enders, sure. I'm not seeing how Trump sufficiently co-opted the state's armed institutions (police, military) for any real civil war to arise at this point.

Civil war isn't just something that erupts from the masses, generally speaking the parts of the state itself play a huge role as partisan actors.

I'm not exactly sure why Trump didn't put more effort into co-opting the military or police, because both are very conservative generally (especially local police) and would probably be open to being folded into the Trump personality cult, but he didn't. Trump isn't exactly a big ideas guy and I guess that kind of scheming was beyond his limited imagination.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 06:46 AM   #55
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trump releases 'official' statement:



August 2023 is the "middle" of his 2024 presidential campaign? Fifteen months prior is the middle of, what?, his thirty month campaign? And trump thinks Jack Smith is deranged?
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Old 2nd August 2023, 09:04 AM   #56
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21 Donald Trump election lies listed in his new indictment.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/02/polit...ndictment-lies
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Old 2nd August 2023, 10:41 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
trump releases 'official' statement:



August 2023 is the "middle" of his 2024 presidential campaign? Fifteen months prior is the middle of, what?, his thirty month campaign? And trump thinks Jack Smith is deranged?
Again with the "Why are they doing it now?" The only time that would satisfy the shmuck would be "never".
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Old 2nd August 2023, 10:44 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
From the Daily Beast...

The question remains, who is #6?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_Six_(The_Prisoner)
Michael Popok of Meidas Touch believes it is Boris Epstein and maybe Peter Navarro.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 11:06 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Again with the "Why are they doing it now?" The only time that would satisfy the shmuck would be "never".
Why now? Because it takes time to gather evidence. Especially since the process was slowed at every step by obstruction attempts by the individuals involved. Legal challenge after legal challenge.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 11:23 AM   #60
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Any thoughts of Civil War aren't being just echoed by the Federalist, who state that the indictment is a declaration of war, the war obviously begun in the minds of some: https://thefederalist.com/2023/08/02...erican-voters/

Sharpen your pitchforks, and recall I warned about the making of martyrs long before this crap ever happened.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 11:29 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Any thoughts of Civil War aren't being just echoed by the Federalist, who state that the indictment is a declaration of war, the war obviously begun in the minds of some: https://thefederalist.com/2023/08/02...erican-voters/

Sharpen your pitchforks, and recall I warned about the making of martyrs long before this crap ever happened.

" On Tuesday, President Joe Biden’s Justice Department took the unprecedented step of indicting former President Donald Trump — Biden’s chief rival in the upcoming 2024 election — for repeatedly expressing his opinion that the last election was stolen, rigged, and unfair."



Wow, these people are truly delusional.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 11:29 AM   #62
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MAGAts are going after Pence, because, a big part of the evidence against the other guy are Pence's notes that he took in the meeting where they tried to get him on board with their plan to change the outcome.

I'll say it again: their problem with Pence is that he took notes at the meeting and recorded what went on. They aren't upset by what the TFG told him to do, and their not even upset that they held the meeting without letting one of his top people attend, because that person told him it was wrong. Nope, the problem is that Pence took notes and therefore betrayed the boss.

The other defense coming up is, yeah, he said and did all that, but it's protected by the first amendment. They can't deny it, so the only response is "He's allowed to do it."

Kind of like the document problem.

Of course, Smith actually addressed the 1st amendment issue head on in the indictment. He isn't being indicted for lying about anything. It's his attempt at subverting the election.

Speech involved in committing a crime is not protected free speech. In fact, that's the whole basis of conspiracy charges - they talked about doing it.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 11:32 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
MAGAts are going after Pence...
I just popped back in to note that I hope Pence's security is water-tight, because I expect him to be the number one target for the crazies.

A traitor to your cause is always the most evil person.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 11:35 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I just popped back in to note that I hope Pence's security is water-tight, because I expect him to be the number one target for the crazies.

A traitor to your cause is always the most evil person.
But the real issue to me is....what has Pence done wrong? Other than not fall on his sword for the boss?

He took notes at the meeting. Given that, they were going to be subpoenaed, that is clear, since they are material evidence.

What could Pence do? Lie to the investigators? That's a mafia mentality. Sure, he could try to fight the subpoena like the others did, but he would lose.

Those notes existed. If you got a problem with what the notes say about Trump, that's not Pence's fault.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 11:38 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I just popped back in to note that I hope Pence's security is water-tight, because I expect him to be the number one target for the crazies.

A traitor to your cause is always the most evil person.
Looking at the amount of butthurt replies from the right on his twitter post. Yeah, I'd say you are right.

https://twitter.com/Mike_Pence/statu...29371685658625
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Old 2nd August 2023, 11:54 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I just popped back in to note that I hope Pence's security is water-tight, because I expect him to be the number one target for the crazies.

A traitor to your cause is always the most evil person.
I think Smith is the number one target.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 12:12 PM   #67
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Reading through the indictment, it gets a bit sweary in places.
“I’ll obviously hustle to help on all fronts, but it’s tough to own any of this when it’s all just conspiracy **** beamed down from the mothership.”
The idea of an “Elite Strike Task Force” led by Rudy Giuliani is so funny that it distracts from how dangerously criminal all of these post-election schemes were.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 01:10 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
But the real issue to me is....what has Pence done wrong? Other than not fall on his sword for the boss?

He took notes at the meeting. Given that, they were going to be subpoenaed, that is clear, since they are material evidence.

What could Pence do? Lie to the investigators? That's a mafia mentality. Sure, he could try to fight the subpoena like the others did, but he would lose.

Those notes existed. If you got a problem with what the notes say about Trump, that's not Pence's fault.
Pence did a lot of things wrong. Both in the view of the MAGA-CHUDS and in my view.

The MAGA-CHUDS don't care about the law, the Constitution or doing what is right. Pence put doing the right thing above being loyal to His Orangeness.

In my view Pence failed after he did his job on January 6th. He tried to have it both ways. He stood up for democracy and then stood up for the turd who attacked it. The man whose acts led to hundreds of people searching to hang him.

This makes him look weak and unprincipled.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 01:10 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Any thoughts of Civil War aren't being just echoed by the Federalist, who state that the indictment is a declaration of war, the war obviously begun in the minds of some: https://thefederalist.com/2023/08/02...erican-voters/

Sharpen your pitchforks, and recall I warned about the making of martyrs long before this crap ever happened.
Couldn't get very far into that. I prefer to hold down my lunch.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 01:25 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think those who have constanly attacked Garland and said he would never indict only have one legitmate statement to make today: How they would like their crow served.
The glass is always half-empty to some people. Being fined $5,000,000 and found in a court to be a sexual abuser, being indicted in 2 criminal federal indictments, one criminal state indictment, and another criminal state indictment likely any time now is not a "stern finger wag followed by a toussling of his hair."
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Old 2nd August 2023, 01:29 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
MAGAts are going after Pence, because, a big part of the evidence against the other guy are Pence's notes that he took in the meeting where they tried to get him on board with their plan to change the outcome.

I'll say it again: their problem with Pence is that he took notes at the meeting and recorded what went on. They aren't upset by what the TFG told him to do, and their not even upset that they held the meeting without letting one of his top people attend, because that person told him it was wrong. Nope, the problem is that Pence took notes and therefore betrayed the boss.

The other defense coming up is, yeah, he said and did all that, but it's protected by the first amendment. They can't deny it, so the only response is "He's allowed to do it."

Kind of like the document problem.

Of course, Smith actually addressed the 1st amendment issue head on in the indictment. He isn't being indicted for lying about anything. It's his attempt at subverting the election.

Speech involved in committing a crime is not protected free speech. In fact, that's the whole basis of conspiracy charges - they talked about doing it.
That's the Nixon defense....



... in his interview with David Frost.

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Old 2nd August 2023, 01:36 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The glass is always half-empty to some people. Being fined $5,000,000 and found in a court to be a sexual abuser, being indicted in 2 criminal federal indictments, one criminal state indictment, and another criminal state indictment likely any time now is not a "stern finger wag followed by a toussling of his hair."
He still hasn't paid a penny, nor has his lifestyle been significantly constrained.

He could have dozens of indictments but if he doesn't have to pay his own legal bills, isn't even under house arrest - much less being in custody, and hasn't been handed a custodial sentence then he hasn't really been punished for his actions.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 01:57 PM   #73
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About those very heavily armed crazies: Not really. A motley of light shoulder weapons and small piles of ammo are not enough to challenge a government. Small acts of ugliness followed by ruthless pursuit, abetted by a law-abiding population, are nihilist tactics -- no, I think I'd say suicidal tactics.

January 6 was the work of MAGAstan's best and brightest. That's encouraging, and I bet even the Dudalb abides with me on that one.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 02:25 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
He still hasn't paid a penny, nor has his lifestyle been significantly constrained.
IIRC the $5 mil is already in something like an escrow account.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 02:38 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
He still hasn't paid a penny, nor has his lifestyle been significantly constrained.

He could have dozens of indictments but if he doesn't have to pay his own legal bills, isn't even under house arrest - much less being in custody, and hasn't been handed a custodial sentence then he hasn't really been punished for his actions.
I didn't say he's been punished yet. I said the civil case judgment and the indictments are more than a "stern finger wag followed by a toussling (sic) of his hair."

However, he has been punished as far as the law allows for his defamation of E. Jean Carroll...and a $5 million fine which he must pay from his own money, and being declared to be a sexual abuser is also more than a "stern finger wag followed by a toussling of his hair."
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Old 2nd August 2023, 02:44 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
IIRC the $5 mil is already in something like an escrow account.
It's been placed in a court-controlled bank account. It will be payable once Trump's appeal(s) have been played out.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 03:52 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Yeah, I thought about him but Trump said (according to a Maggie Habberman report) that Meadows was too honest. Not a great resume builder for joining a conspiracy.
Trump told Pence he was too honest, according to the indictment.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 04:04 PM   #78
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Trump indictment reminds us that Rusty Bowers stood tall — and mostly alone

Quote:
Opinion: The Trump indictment details how Arizona House Speaker Rusty Bowers stood tall when Donald Trump came calling. You should read it, if only to remember what real leaders look like.

Having read the 45-page indictment of the 45th president of the United States, I feel compelled as a proud Arizonan to say just this:

Thank you, Rusty Bowers.

The story of how the Arizona House speaker stood tall when Donald Trump and his co-conspirators came calling — refusing to throw in with their scheme to steal Arizona’s election — is not new.

But it certainly bears repeating, if only to remind people what real leaders look like.
I have a lot of political disagreements with Rusty Bowers, but he did what anyone should have done, put country and democracy above party.

This is what stands out most to me:

Quote:
In the end, Bowers — the guy who dared to ask for proof that Arizona’s election was stolen — lost a lot.

He was savaged by Trump, censured by the Arizona Republican Party, ridiculed by the party’s state chairwoman and harassed by “patriots” who descended on his Mesa neighborhood to scream through bullhorns that he was a pedophile. This, as his daughter lay dying inside his home.
I'm not going to call him a hero. He, and others like Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, just did what ANY Republican should have done: put America above the GQP and DO THE RIGHT THING!
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Old 2nd August 2023, 04:46 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Not this again. I think there might be another Jan 6 type event, but not everyone in the USA is as fixated on guns and politics as you.
I don't think Trump will win the election but that almost guarantees a repeat of Jan 6. Only this time Trump will have a better chance of getting people to carry out his orders. Those states where GOP legislators control the voting certification could be a real problem.

At least Biden occupies the White House so there won't be that problem of having to get Trump out of there. And because of that seems like Biden would stay in power while the coup gets sorted. At least that would be a new hurdle Trump would have no experience dealing with.

But I can just imagine Trump starting to order whichever military 'generals' support him to take some action .... and hopefully if this is the scenario, that is where said coup would be stopped.

We Democrats, Progressives, libruls and Republicans that still understand the election process should maybe start thinking about this now.


ETA: By repeat of Jan 6 I don't mean a bunch of weekend warriors taking over the Capitol. I mean Trump gerrymandering the EC.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 2nd August 2023 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 04:50 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think those who have constanly attacked Garland and said he would never indict only have one legitmate statement to make today: How they would like their crow served.
No crow on the menu today, there was no reason he didn't move sooner. And now there is more of a time crunch ... could be a real mess.
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