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Old 2nd August 2023, 04:52 PM   #81
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Trump indictment reminds us that Rusty Bowers stood tall — and mostly alone



I have a lot of political disagreements with Rusty Bowers, but he did what anyone should have done, put country and democracy above party.

This is what stands out most to me:



I'm not going to call him a hero. He, and others like Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, just did what ANY Republican should have done: put America above the GQP and DO THE RIGHT THING!
Hero: "A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life."

All three of these Republicans risked their lives to tell the truth. They all received death threats. They all sacrificed their careers to do "what was right". That took courage. A courage so many Republicans didn't have.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 04:54 PM   #82
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The chances of there ever being a Trum Presidential Library are quickly disappearing. Where will we ever see the Kim Jong Un love letters?
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Old 2nd August 2023, 05:02 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No crow on the menu today, there was no reason he didn't move sooner. And now there is more of a time crunch ... could be a real mess.
You're making an assumption. And the claims were that Garland would never indict Trump not whether he did it fast enough or not.

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Old 2nd August 2023, 05:20 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I think one positive aspect of Jan 6 was that it showed that the US is not on the verge of a civil war: A mob of incompetent nutjobs was all the insurrectionist leaders could rouse. The only reason those people actually got inside the Capitol was that security was unprepared and lax.

Hans
Agreed. I certainly think there is a national security threat internal to the US but people who talk about civil war, don't know much about war. If the enemy on January 6th had and could sustain a combat credible force that could have seized control the Capitol and installed Trump, they would have. They went through the nonsense fake electors and attempted parliamentary tricks because they were only capable of conflict short of war.

Even when there was lethal violence after the search warrant, those fools hit the targets of opportunity where they lived. No force is coalescing to amply combat power to anything the would a. stop the prosecution or b. install Trump as the President. We're polarized and there are armed whack jobs. But there is still only one Army in the US.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 05:21 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Pence did a lot of things wrong. Both in the view of the MAGA-CHUDS and in my view.

The MAGA-CHUDS don't care about the law, the Constitution or doing what is right. Pence put doing the right thing above being loyal to His Orangeness.

In my view Pence failed after he did his job on January 6th. He tried to have it both ways. He stood up for democracy and then stood up for the turd who attacked it. The man whose acts led to hundreds of people searching to hang him.

This makes him look weak and unprincipled.
He just said that he didn't know about the fake elector scheme until the indictment was published.

WHAT?

Quote:
Asked what he had learned after reading through the indictment's 45 pages, Pence pointed to it laying out how Trump and his allies allegedly recruited a slate of fake electors in seven battleground states to sign certificates falsely stating Trump had won when he hadn't.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/penc...y?id=101953368

Pence is still trying to have it both ways. He said he hoped the American people would decide instead of the justice system on whether Trump is guilty.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 05:35 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You're making an assumption. And the claims were that Garland would never indict Trump not whether he did it fast enough or not.
I don't believe I posted anything about he'll never indict.

As for the needless delay, should I change that to 'no good reason'? Or IMO it was a mistake?

The Jan6 Committee did a very thorough job of laying out the case against Trump. This is one of the most important cases in the history of this country. We're not talking here about trying to spy on the members of the other party or having a slush fund to pay burglars to break into a psychiatrist's office. Though people may have forgotten just how much Nixon did abusing his office and that case was critical.

Trump tried to subvert the election outcome. IT IS A HUGE DEAL! A fair amount of the case was already developed. What possible reason could Garland have had for taking so long to assign a special prosecutor? Was Smith not yet available?

Yes Stacy, I can say Garland needed to get this case moving sooner. Having it complete before the GOP Primary was pretty damn important. There are going to be some serious complications if the trial(s) drag out too long and voters don't know the outcome(s) before they vote.

So I do not have blind faith that Garland might have had a good reason. Unless Smith was not yet available, I could see waiting for such a skilled prosecutor.

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Old 2nd August 2023, 05:40 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Not this again. I think there might be another Jan 6 type event, but not everyone in the USA is as fixated on guns and politics as you.

So if Trump gets in again we just roll over and play dead.
What part of "Trump has pretty much said if he gets in again he will make himself a dictator" don't you get?
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Old 2nd August 2023, 05:43 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I don't think dubalb's statement is unreasonable.

I doubt there would be a civil war of the type when the Confederate States ceded from the Union, but that is not the only type of civil war. The Troubles in Ireland was a civil war with no borders between the belligerents. We know their are plenty of violent MAGA chuds who are very heavily armed. The whole ******* lot of them are off their rockers - and there isn't a lot that is more dangerous than armed nutcases who think they have a cause.

Its not beyond reason that a Second US Civil war would look more like Ireland from the 1960's-90's than like the US in 1861-65 - a campaign of terror, bombings, sniper attacks and mass shootings is not a far fetched suggestion.
I am thinking more of armed resistence to Trump trying to make himself a dictator if he gets back in..which he has pretty much said he will do.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 05:45 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yes, you've repeatedly said this kind of thing.

An alternative view is that there will be outrage, then a collective shrug of the shoulders and the vast majority of the US population will get on with their lives, putting food on the table and keeping body and soul together.
I don't think Americans will give up their freedom as easily as you think.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 05:48 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The glass is always half-empty to some people. Being fined $5,000,000 and found in a court to be a sexual abuser, being indicted in 2 criminal federal indictments, one criminal state indictment, and another criminal state indictment likely any time now is not a "stern finger wag followed by a toussling of his hair."
I don't think that Garland had much to do with the private lawsuit.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 05:51 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
About those very heavily armed crazies: Not really. A motley of light shoulder weapons and small piles of ammo are not enough to challenge a government. Small acts of ugliness followed by ruthless pursuit, abetted by a law-abiding population, are nihilist tactics -- no, I think I'd say suicidal tactics.

January 6 was the work of MAGAstan's best and brightest. That's encouraging, and I bet even the Dudalb abides with me on that one.
People keep forgetting my Civil War comment is based upon Trump getting in the White House and trying to make himself a dictator..which he will do if elected.
I thnk that would trigger massive protests which would be violently supressed and trigger armed resistence.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 05:54 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't think Trump will win the election but that almost guarantees a repeat of Jan 6. Only this time Trump will have a better chance of getting people to carry out his orders. Those states where GOP legislators control the voting certification could be a real problem.

At least Biden occupies the White House so there won't be that problem of having to get Trump out of there. And because of that seems like Biden would stay in power while the coup gets sorted. At least that would be a new hurdle Trump would have no experience dealing with.

But I can just imagine Trump starting to order whichever military 'generals' support him to take some action .... and hopefully if this is the scenario, that is where said coup would be stopped.

We Democrats, Progressives, libruls and Republicans that still understand the election process should maybe start thinking about this now.


ETA: By repeat of Jan 6 I don't mean a bunch of weekend warriors taking over the Capitol. I mean Trump gerrymandering the EC.
I don't think people will stand for that, frankly. They will fight it..by any means necessary..
You could argue that Trump will have a toughter time with state officials if it is clear he has lost. They won't thorw away their careers backing an obvious loser.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 05:57 PM   #93
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I don't think the American People are as apathetic as some here thinkk..probably because it is a cheap way to feel superior to the proles.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 06:00 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
The chances of there ever being a Trum Presidential Library are quickly disappearing. Where will we ever see the Kim Jong Un love letters?
There might be a special Trump Presidency section in NARA, but that is it.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 06:02 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You're making an assumption. And the claims were that Garland would never indict Trump not whether he did it fast enough or not.
If you are going to take down a Ex POTUS, you need every t crossed and I dotted.
And people don't get that in the real world things don't happen in the legal system as fast as they do on an episode of "Law and Order".
I really think they needed to wait until the Congressioan Jan. 6th Investigation was over.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 06:25 PM   #96
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Now look, ole Dudb, do you really, genuinely,.sincerely, with numbers to.back you up, think that Trumbi's conviction, or his increasingly hysterical cries, will actually trigger some kind of revolt by the pot-bellied and throat-bearded minority who want to worship at his shrine?

If you do or, well, kinda do, I understand. Old as I am, I rather wish for a time when the laws are down. I think of putting the crosshairs on one of The Fat One's chief henchmen and touching the fine hair trigger on my family's heirloom Winchester Model 1885.

If I got a bead on Himself, I'd refrain. The law must take its course.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 06:37 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
About those very heavily armed crazies: Not really. A motley of light shoulder weapons and small piles of ammo are not enough to challenge a government. Small acts of ugliness followed by ruthless pursuit, abetted by a law-abiding population, are nihilist tactics -- no, I think I'd say suicidal tactics
Don't forget that one man, butthurt about WACO, with some diesel, some car-racing fuel, some fertilizer and a U-Haul truck was able to bring down a Federal Building killing 168 people (including 19 children) and injuring over 500.

This is never going to be about an actual civil war against the government - those weekend wannabe soldiers would get their arses walloped if they were to try that. But we already know that America cannot do anything about spree shooters, and there are very likely MAGA chuds who are bonkers enough to do that.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 06:52 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I don't think people will stand for that, frankly. They will fight it..by any means necessary..
You could argue that Trump will have a toughter time with state officials if it is clear he has lost. They won't thorw away their careers backing an obvious loser.
I can't imagine people standing for the first Jan6.

Like I said in the footnote, I can't see a mob attacking the Capitol.

My concerns are those GOP legislators who control the vote certifications in their states. And there would have to be enough of them that it shifted the EC. Then who knows what would happen.

I'm comfortable the 'generals' wouldn't support a coup. But they aren't supposed to send the military to deal with national issues. It appears more than a few police are MAGAchuds, and it's likely there are some in the national guard as well.


Do I think Trump could pull off an actual coup? No, not really. But he could make a bloody mess of things again.

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Old 2nd August 2023, 06:53 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Now look, ole Dudb, do you really, genuinely,.sincerely, with numbers to.back you up, think that Trumbi's conviction, or his increasingly hysterical cries, will actually trigger some kind of revolt by the pot-bellied and throat-bearded minority who want to worship at his shrine?

If you do or, well, kinda do, I understand. Old as I am, I rather wish for a time when the laws are down. I think of putting the crosshairs on one of The Fat One's chief henchmen and touching the fine hair trigger on my family's heirloom Winchester Model 1885.

If I got a bead on Himself, I'd refrain. The law must take its course.
Question is are there enough of them to get Trump elected in 2024. There were not in 2020, and I think it will be even harder for thim to get the indepenents in 2024.
I also think if he is convicted before the election, the idea of criminal as presidient will cause a lot of people who normally don't vote to turn out to vote against Trump.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 06:55 PM   #100
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I just think Democracy in the US is a lot toughter then a lot of people here think.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 06:59 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If you are going to take down a Ex POTUS, you need every t crossed and I dotted.
And people don't get that in the real world things don't happen in the legal system as fast as they do on an episode of "Law and Order".
I really think they needed to wait until the Congressioan Jan. 6th Investigation was over.
If you are weighing 1-1.5 years given there was an incredibly detailed roadmap the House had put together I can see that. But 2.5 years given all the circumstances of the upcoming primaries, the election and the specific nature of the crimes, ... not seeing how "these things take time" means nothing else should be considered.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 07:19 PM   #102
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Reading you numbah one,

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Don't forget that one man, butthurt about WACO, with some diesel, some car-racing fuel, some fertilizer and a U-Haul truck was able to bring down a Federal Building killing 168 people (including 19 children) and injuring over 500.

This is never going to be about an actual civil war against the government - those weekend wannabe soldiers would get their arses walloped if they were to try that. But we already know that America cannot do anything about spree shooters, and there are very likely MAGA chuds who are bonkers enough to do that.
ovah. But who is the target this time around? And who among the Trump cultists will be able to sneak in, after so many alarms and warning signs? Granted, the MAGAliban don't use human logic and their moves may be hard to anticipate, but their ranks are easily infiltrated (just act stupid enough and wear sufficiently preposterous tats) and you can stay ahead.

And give them no mercy.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 07:50 PM   #103
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This is my favorite Trump indictment. I loved the other indictments but this one is the best.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 08:00 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I don't think the American People are as apathetic as some here thinkk..probably because it is a cheap way to feel superior to the proles.
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I just think Democracy in the US is a lot toughter than a lot of people here think.
Always tiresome to read variations of this in thread after thread.

How about names, General, instead of insinuations: general?
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Old 2nd August 2023, 08:00 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
About those very heavily armed crazies: Not really. A motley of light shoulder weapons and small piles of ammo are not enough to challenge a government. Small acts of ugliness followed by ruthless pursuit, abetted by a law-abiding population, are nihilist tactics -- no, I think I'd say suicidal tactics.

January 6 was the work of MAGAstan's best and brightest. That's encouraging, and I bet even the Dudalb abides with me on that one.
There are a vast number of right-wing ******** in the US Military. Including high ranking officers.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 08:01 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
ovah. But who is the target this time around? And who among the Trump cultists will be able to sneak in, after so many alarms and warning signs? Granted, the MAGAliban don't use human logic and their moves may be hard to anticipate, but their ranks are easily infiltrated (just act stupid enough and wear sufficiently preposterous tats) and you can stay ahead.

And give them no mercy.
Democrats - anyone, anywhere, anytime
State Democratic party buildings
Individual Senators
Individual Representatives

- We have already seen a plot to bomb Democratic Party headquarters in Sacramento, and a January 6 attempt in Washington DC

- We have already seen a plot to kidnap and murder Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer

- We have already seen mailbomb plots in which actual pipe bombs were mailed to individual Democratic Senators, Representatives, Politicians and civil servants - Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, John Brennan, Cory Booker and Kamala Harris

- We have already seen a nutcase break into the house of Nancy Pelosi and her husband, in which the latter was brutally attacked with a hammer


Seriously Ginger, do you really believe there are no viable targets for these MAGAlomaniacs!?
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Old 2nd August 2023, 08:03 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
This is my favorite Trump indictment. I loved the other indictments but this one is the best.
The Sgt. Pepper of indictments.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 08:07 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
My concerns are those GOP legislators who control the vote certifications in their states. And there would have to be enough of them that it shifted the EC. Then who knows what would happen.
I may have to look at a more recent analysis. I recall there was a lot of effort in 2022 to get loyal partisans in control of election outcomes, but that the lion's share of these efforts failed.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 08:14 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
My concerns are those GOP legislators who control the vote certifications in their states. And there would have to be enough of them that it shifted the EC. Then who knows what would happen.
Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I may have to look at a more recent analysis. I recall there was a lot of effort in 2022 to get loyal partisans in control of election outcomes, but that the lion's share of these efforts failed.
SCOTUS already ruled against this.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/sup...pute-rcna68630
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Old 2nd August 2023, 08:28 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't think Trump will win the election but that almost guarantees a repeat of Jan 6. Only this time Trump will have a better chance of getting people to carry out his orders. Those states where GOP legislators control the voting certification could be a real problem.
Let me be a little bit optimistic for a second...

There are states with GOP legislatures who might try to manipulate their electoral college votes. But the way I see it, those states that might try that are probably already red states and probably already voted for Trump.

Any moderate or even left-leaning state that voted for biden probably won't want to change their electoral college votes, because either they are controlled by the democrats, or even if they have republicans in control, they still won't act because they would harm their own chances in the next state election.

And perhaps the number of people that are getting jailed over the January 6 terrorist attacks will make others nervous about joining in next time Stubby McBonespurs tries to install a dictatorship.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 09:00 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
There are states with GOP legislatures who might try to manipulate their electoral college votes. But the way I see it, those states that might try that are probably already red states and probably already voted for Trump.
G.O.P. Cements Hold on Legislatures in Battleground States

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/25/u...-android-share


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Old 2nd August 2023, 09:29 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So if Trump gets in again we just roll over and play dead.
No, Democracy takes its course.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What part of "Trump has pretty much said if he gets in again he will make himself a dictator" don't you get?
"Pretty much"? I don't think I need to answer that.

Do you really think Democrats will start a civil war if Trump gets in?

You must know a lot of Democrats who are different to any Democrats I know.

Of course, if he makes himself a Dictator, they might do something, but you're jumping the gun a long way there.

Not that this has anything to do with the topic. Let's get back to the indictment at least slightly. Will Trump try election interference again?

Last edited by Orphia Nay; 2nd August 2023 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 09:54 PM   #113
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From the Associated Press:


The indictment Tuesday alleges that Trump was aided in his efforts to overturn the election by six unnamed co-conspirators. The Associated Press has identified five of them through court and Congressional records and other means:

— “Co-Conspirator 1” and “Co-Conspirator 2” are lawyers Rudy Giuliani and John Eastman. Giuliani, one of Trump’s attorneys, is described in the indictment as “an attorney who was willing to spread knowingly false claims” about the election. Eastman “advised and attempted to implement a strategy,” the indictment said, that would have seen former Vice President Mike Pence reject the certification of the electoral vote.

— “Co-Conspirator 3,” attorney Sidney Powell, pushed election conspiracies that even Trump privately conceded sounded “crazy,” the indictment alleged.

— “Co-Conspirator 4” is Jeffrey Clark, a Justice Department official who championed Trump’s false claims of election fraud.

— “Co-Conspirator 5” is lawyer Kenneth Chesebro, whom the indictment alleges “assisted in devising and attempting to implement a plan to submit fraudulent slates of presidential electors to obstruct the certification proceeding.”

— “Co-Conspirator 6” is an unknown political consultant who also assisted with the fake electors plan.

In deciding not to charge those six individuals, legal scholars said, Smith and his prosecutors were not just thinking about how to move quickly before the 2024 election. They may also be feeling pressure to win a conviction before Trump or another Republican might capture the presidency and order a stop to the prosecution."

https://apnews.com/article/a71b37f63...51669184252880
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Old 2nd August 2023, 09:56 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Don't forget that one man, butthurt about WACO, with some diesel, some car-racing fuel, some fertilizer and a U-Haul truck was able to bring down a Federal Building killing 168 people (including 19 children) and injuring over 500.

This is never going to be about an actual civil war against the government - those weekend wannabe soldiers would get their arses walloped if they were to try that. But we already know that America cannot do anything about spree shooters, and there are very likely MAGA chuds who are bonkers enough to do that.
Yep there are definitely Violent idiot Infowars out there Fueled by insane conspiracy theories, we lost the war against Stupid decades ago.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 10:02 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Democrats - anyone, anywhere, anytime
State Democratic party buildings
Individual Senators
Individual Representatives

- We have already seen a plot to bomb Democratic Party headquarters in Sacramento, and a January 6 attempt in Washington DC

- We have already seen a plot to kidnap and murder Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer

- We have already seen mailbomb plots in which actual pipe bombs were mailed to individual Democratic Senators, Representatives, Politicians and civil servants - Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, John Brennan, Cory Booker and Kamala Harris

- We have already seen a nutcase break into the house of Nancy Pelosi and her husband, in which the latter was brutally attacked with a hammer


Seriously Ginger, do you really believe there are no viable targets for these MAGAlomaniacs!?
Anyone with Functional brain cells is a target they fear knowledge, that confronts their Belief systems!
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Old 2nd August 2023, 11:19 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't believe I posted anything about he'll never indict.
I didn't say you did. Dudalb said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think those who have constanly attacked Garland and said he would never indict only have one legitmate statement to make today: How they would like their crow served.
[quote=Skeptic Ginger;14132893]As for the needless delay, should I change that to 'no good reason'? Or IMO it was a mistake?[quote]

Again, you are making an assumption as you have no idea what Garland was thinking, what his tactic may have been, or what was going on behind the scenes.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The Jan6 Committee did a very thorough job of laying out the case against Trump. This is one of the most important cases in the history of this country. We're not talking here about trying to spy on the members of the other party or having a slush fund to pay burglars to break into a psychiatrist's office. Though people may have forgotten just how much Nixon did abusing his office and that case was critical.
Yes, they did. And the J6 investigation was the biggest and most complex in the country's history which means it took a lot of time to get it right. Rushing it before it was ready and coordinating it with the other investigations took time.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Trump tried to subvert the election outcome. IT IS A HUGE DEAL! A fair amount of the case was already developed. What possible reason could Garland have had for taking so long to assign a special prosecutor? Was Smith not yet available?
Agreed, it IS A HUGE DEAL! /All the more reason for it not to be rushed. As for what possible reason could Garland taking so long to assign a special counsel, I don't know and you don't know. But do think he had his reasons which we are not privy to.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes Stacy, I can say Garland needed to get this case moving sooner. Having it complete before the GOP Primary was pretty damn important. There are going to be some serious complications if the trial(s) drag out too long and voters don't know the outcome(s) before they vote.

So I do not have blind faith that Garland might have had a good reason. Unless Smith was not yet available, I could see waiting for such a skilled prosecutor.
It's easy to say 'Garland needed to get this case moving sooner' but that doesn't change the fact that you do not KNOW why he made the timing decisions he did because you don't KNOW what all was happening. I rather suspect Garland KNEW and KNOWS that the primaries and election are looming on the horizon and how important that is. I seriously doubt he was unaware of that!
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Old 2nd August 2023, 11:25 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I don't think that Garland had much to do with the private lawsuit.
He didn't, but I was referring to this which was not confined to only the criminal charges:

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Seconded. Victory means actual consequences. A stern finger wag followed by a toussling of his hair is meaningless. I don't care about the dog and pony drama show. Nothing less than being treated like the criminal he is will suffice. And criminals shouldn't continue to take limo rides home every night.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 11:26 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I may have to look at a more recent analysis. I recall there was a lot of effort in 2022 to get loyal partisans in control of election outcomes, but that the lion's share of these efforts failed.
Yes. But every year the MAGA chuds keep expanding their territory.

Raffensperger did get reelected, but do we have a running total of who didn't get reelected to state houses that might matter?

I have not looked. I am still on the optimistic side of the fence, but not confidentially so. The GOP started taking over state houses back when Tom Delay was in office. Do you think they ever stopped this strategy?
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Old 2nd August 2023, 11:31 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
SCOTUS already ruled against this.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/sup...pute-rcna68630
There are quite a few caveats in that report. Shaky ground is what I see. Though I am glad that step has been taken.
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Old 2nd August 2023, 11:34 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Let me be a little bit optimistic for a second...

There are states with GOP legislatures who might try to manipulate their electoral college votes. But the way I see it, those states that might try that are probably already red states and probably already voted for Trump.
Ahem, Georgia, AZ, Michigan .... Yes they stood their ground but were these blue states?
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